Originally posted by doug200463 1st of all, what your describing would be an everquest clone, your giveing blowzhard... err sorry, blizzard too much credit... second of all im guess WoW was your 1st MMO, you have to look at when wow came out, wow wasnt the 1st MMO, but they were the 1st that had great game play and awesome graphics, (its only competitors were Everquest 1, Ultima Online and Daoc.) and an engine that would run on almost any machine of the day... so you were spoiled on WoW... and you will never have the experience again... and this could be why you do not like other MMOs beacuse your 1st time OMFG experience is gone. and your obviously comparing every game you play to WoW, you need to stop doing this, beacuse most games, tho very simular in the basics, are totally differnt than WoW. If your looking for a game like WoW to bring back the killer, WoW experience... your not going to find it... beacuse not even WoW it self has that..
I agree with your premise, although WoW had more competition than just the three games you mentioned at the time. WoW didn't have awesome graphics at the time either. WoW did deliver a more complete gaming experience though in terms of having a variety of things to do.
A mmo gamers first game experience will be the basis for any and all compairisons, because it's all they know from mmos. Unfortunately, post 2004, too many developers out there attempted to copy the WoW model. LotRO started as MEO (middle earth online), and was a drastically different game than what it turned out to be. However, at the same time, when a game tries to do something different, many gamers now piss and moan about that too. Look at the multiple threads that pop up about how GW2 should have had a hard trinity system, or quest hubs, etc.
The genre isn't dying, it's just morphed into a more shallow version. Too many developers are attempting to attract everyone, and the ones who don't mind designing a niche game can't seem to get the core of their own game right or playable. We're in a very weird period. There are some good games out there, but they don't seemingly have a similar staying power as the games of old.
With more competition from single player games with multiplayer capabilities, mobas, and more rpg elements in FPS games, perhaps some mmo developer won't be afraid to develop a game not for the masses. There some interesting games on the horizon, but who knows what path they will choose to take.
I bet that overall attention span is the problem here. Tenuous ability to stay on task demands games that are instant gratification strobe experiences. The newer gamers are probably doing so much multi-tasking while playing that the game itself cannot over-burden their ability to do one thing for any length of time.
Consoles had all the kids + low attention span folks, thus consoles had all the money. Now PC games are designed to try and grab that crowd and their cash.
WoW = biggest signpost telling ADHD gamers "Come this way..."
With more competition from single player games with multiplayer capabilities, mobas, and more rpg elements in FPS games, perhaps some mmo developer won't be afraid to develop a game not for the masses. There some interesting games on the horizon, but who knows what path they will choose to take.
Or they will compete with these other types of games more effectively by incorporating their ideas .. more action combat, lobby matching, more game like, less world like.
You know the saying .. if you can't beat them, join them.
So the debate is.. "fast food players vs. cook a meal at home players"?
Old school players grew up using the entire kitchen to make a meal, whereas the new skool players loving fast food or anything that can be microwaved in seconds.. I guess it is all preferences.. But times are changing, I see it in the schools each year.. The size of marching bands are dwindling with each class, and how many people actually take part in after school programs like thespians? Even the all mighty sports interest havce slowed down a bit.. Less and less people are taking part in offline activities.. Golf leagues are suffering, Bowling leagues have suffered tremendously.. The younger generation has little time for entertainment that takes months or years to pay off..
From where I sit, this isn't a MMORPG problem, but a cultural one as well.. Even the simple enjoyment of reading a book for leisure is declining, and statitistic show it having an important impact on society.. Old school has it's place in the world, that much is sure..
It's not a problem. The culture is changing. Change, in and of itself, is not a problem. Where it becomes a problem is when elements of the culture refuse to change along with everyone else. It's when people start thinking they represent the good in a society of bad. It's absolutely absurd when people start thinking that games... GAMES are any more important than that. It would be like Monopoly enthusiasts screaming that the world is going to hell because they're swapping out the iron for a cat.
Guys, it's just a fucking game, get the hell over it.
Originally posted by Psychow So, to summarize: WoW is the Anti-Christ of MMOs...
As tempting as it is to blame WoW, we must blame the bottom-feeding competitors who failed, utterly, to determine exactly why Wow did so well.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
So the debate is.. "fast food players vs. cook a meal at home players"?
Old school players grew up using the entire kitchen to make a meal, whereas the new skool players loving fast food or anything that can be microwaved in seconds.. I guess it is all preferences.. But times are changing, I see it in the schools each year.. The size of marching bands are dwindling with each class, and how many people actually take part in after school programs like thespians? Even the all mighty sports interest havce slowed down a bit.. Less and less people are taking part in offline activities.. Golf leagues are suffering, Bowling leagues have suffered tremendously.. The younger generation has little time for entertainment that takes months or years to pay off..
From where I sit, this isn't a MMORPG problem, but a cultural one as well.. Even the simple enjoyment of reading a book for leisure is declining, and statitistic show it having an important impact on society.. Old school has it's place in the world, that much is sure..
It's not a problem. The culture is changing. Change, in and of itself, is not a problem. Where it becomes a problem is when elements of the culture refuse to change along with everyone else. It's when people start thinking they represent the good in a society of bad. It's absolutely absurd when people start thinking that games... GAMES are any more important than that. It would be like Monopoly enthusiasts screaming that the world is going to hell because they're swapping out the iron for a cat.
Guys, it's just a fucking game, get the hell over it.
Did you even read what I wrote, or did you just jump into defense mode about a game?.. Child obesity is up, reading skills and education in general is dropping.. and you think change is good? I have news for you and others.. online activity is NOT a social life, and playing a Wii or Xbox is NOT exercise or sport..... Socieity is changing and it is a problem.. Our economy is as fragile as an egg, and is only held together with superficial numbers.. Greece is the first of many nations that are going broke.. Much of our society reminds me of WALL-E... Why walk when I can segway..?
Did you even read what I wrote, or did you just jump into defense mode about a game?.. Child obesity is up, reading skills and education in general is dropping.. and you think change is good? I have news for you and others.. online activity is NOT a social life, and playing a Wii or Xbox is NOT exercise or sport..... Socieity is changing and it is a problem.. Our economy is as fragile as an egg, and is only held together with superficial numbers.. Greece is the first of many nations that are going broke.. Much of our society reminds me of WALL-E... Why walk when I can segway..?
Yeah .. online activity is not a social life. People should stop trying to find a social life in MMOs .. and treat them as what they are .. online games.
The thing that makes me wonder though, is that as large as the gaming market is, there does not seem to be much for people that actually like "older style" MMO. Aside from Eve, and a bunch of underfunded, under-developed sad indie MMO attempts, there is basically nothing. You'd think one of the major or even middle sized MMO company might want a piece of that market segment, but instead, we get the next standard themepark of the week or F2P whatever. It seems to be a market segment that the next well done game is going to dominate.
Originally posted by Burntvet The thing that makes me wonder though, is that as large as the gaming market is, there does not seem to be much for people that actually like "older style" MMO. Aside from Eve, and a bunch of underfunded, under-developed sad indie MMO attempts, there is basically nothing. You'd think one of the major or even middle sized MMO company might want a piece of that market segment, but instead, we get the next standard themepark of the week or F2P whatever. It seems to be a market segment that the next well done game is going to dominate.
I agree that there aren't many people who like "older style" MMO. Personally i have played those, and think that modern games are much better.
However, i disagree that standard themepark is the future. I think the future is a hybrid MMO/other genre. Games like LOL, WOT, D3, PoE, Neverwinter ... which have some MMO elements, and also non-MMO elements.
Originally posted by Burntvet The thing that makes me wonder though, is that as large as the gaming market is, there does not seem to be much for people that actually like "older style" MMO. Aside from Eve, and a bunch of underfunded, under-developed sad indie MMO attempts, there is basically nothing. You'd think one of the major or even middle sized MMO company might want a piece of that market segment, but instead, we get the next standard themepark of the week or F2P whatever. It seems to be a market segment that the next well done game is going to dominate.
Exactly, No real games out there today, so a huge segment of the MMO market has left the building. Companies who fail to understand the market will fail. It's already started. Look at all the downsizing and layoffs. Bankruptices will follow.
Originally posted by Eir_S Originally posted by PsychowSo, to summarize:WoW is the Anti-Christ of MMOs...
No, I'd like to think that the Anti-Christ wouldn't become so lazy halfway through taking over the world.
rofl exactly.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Originally posted by Burntvet The thing that makes me wonder though, is that as large as the gaming market is, there does not seem to be much for people that actually like "older style" MMO. Aside from Eve, and a bunch of underfunded, under-developed sad indie MMO attempts, there is basically nothing. You'd think one of the major or even middle sized MMO company might want a piece of that market segment, but instead, we get the next standard themepark of the week or F2P whatever. It seems to be a market segment that the next well done game is going to dominate.
I agree that there aren't many people who like "older style" MMO.
I never said that at all, and I think just the opposite, frankly. What I said was, for people that like that style of gaming, there is almost nothing. And for a "industry" as large as computer gaming has become, in its many forms, I find that surprising.
Originally posted by Burntvet The thing that makes me wonder though, is that as large as the gaming market is, there does not seem to be much for people that actually like "older style" MMO. Aside from Eve, and a bunch of underfunded, under-developed sad indie MMO attempts, there is basically nothing. You'd think one of the major or even middle sized MMO company might want a piece of that market segment, but instead, we get the next standard themepark of the week or F2P whatever. It seems to be a market segment that the next well done game is going to dominate.
I agree that there aren't many people who like "older style" MMO.
I never said that at all, and I think just the opposite, frankly. What I said was, for people that like that style of gaming, there is almost nothing. And for a "industry" as large as computer gaming has become, in its many forms, I find that surprising.
In that case, i will disagree. I think not many like the "older style" MMO. In fact, the market speaks quite loudly about that. Look at what is popular, and what sells.
The reason why you don't find that many offering with that style is pretty much the evidence that it is not popular anymore.
And don't tell me devs don't know how to make games people love. Look at LOL, WOT, D3 .. even GW2. There are lots of successes recently. Just that they are not traditional MMOs.
I hear you OP. I found this post I made in 2004 or so, regarding Brads new game at the time, called Vanguard. It was made during beta on the sigil forums. I posted it to the server forums I ran for Antonius Bayle during Everquest1 2003-2004. It pretty much described how my first mmo experience felt like, and probably also explains why no other mmo ever felt the same again.
LONG POST AHEAD:
This was written by Geln a member of the SGO forums. Links provided in the post above. -no its not, Its been 10 years and I lost the link -
Quote:
I was reading another thread and finally realized what it was that I most looked forward to in a new MMOG. I want to be as excited about the uknown of a totally new world as I was when I first played EQ. But, since I have that experience behind me and have learned a bit from playing for 4 years now, it's going to take an awful lot of trust in the developers for me to expect that kind of feeling again.
When I first started EQ, a good part of my excitement came out of my own imagination of what was possible. Some things did come out of it all that really surprised me, but to be honest, a lot of the potential I saw exploring the new world ended up as wasted. Now I've got a certain set of perceptions about what is done with a MMOG world and game mechanics and the assumptions I make as I explore any new world will be based on that. As long as the limits of the new world fit within the limits I've assumed for these types of games, then that excitement of the unknown is gone.
Let me give a few examples to illustrate.
Quoted from Aradune from another thread...
Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But what if travelling was fun? What if it wasn't tedious? What if an MMOG could have distant exotic lands where it meant something to have made the journey, ... where you occasionally saw someone of a race or garbed in certain clothing that was totally alien to the environment you were accustomed to? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reading this made me think of my early EQ days. I had two other friends as excited as I was about the upcoming release of EQ. For a couple weeks before release, we read all the press releases and articles we could find on it and got together and made plans on what characters we'd create and the adventures we'd all go on together. Then the game hit the shelves.
One friend wanted a powerful wizard. He created an erudite. Another friend was drawn to the dark arts and wanted to roleplay a cynical curmudgeon (much like his real life personality ). He started a dark elf necromancer and role-played him to the hilt. I was overcome with the possibilities right up until I read the game manual and learned that bards would be the "ultimate" addition to any party. So I started a wood elf.
Over the next week, we played and got to know the world just a bit and spoke together in real life about plans to get together for adventure. The only problem, as it turned out, was that it would've been harder to pick three starting points more separated by geography. Two of us were on opposite sides of the game world and the third, considered "evil" by those that didn't appreciate his dark cynicism, couldn't even attempt to travel in either direction at least until he got an invisibility spell at the hopelessly unreachable level 8.
Well, somehow it got left up to me to find them. I guess I volunteered for it because I wanted to see the parts of the world they kept talking about. Meanwhile, they had heard me talk about Kelethin so they both created wood elf characters, started exploring the city, fell off the tree platforms and died, then promptly deleted those characters and declared they'd never return.
Soon I made level 5. I hunted for a few more days after that and was finally able to afford my level 5 song, Selo's Accelerando. Singing that and banging a drum, I felt invincible, so I set out to travel the world. First I would pick up my friend outside of Neriak and then together we would run to Odus. We figured it would take us two nights of play.
Well, the first night was spent getting lost in Greater Faydark. I know a lot of people had gripes about getting lost, but I loved it. I had no idea the zone was square shaped, so I stayed away from the "walls." I knew the paths sometimes led to other cities (another friend had taken her high elf paladin all the way from Felwithe up to join me in fighting the orcs of Crushbone, but she forgot which turns she'd taken on the path), but I also knew that some just ended in orc camps, so I didn't want to use them either. I just stood in one place and hammered Sense Heading until I finally was pretty sure what direction I was facing, then headed West, where the port city of Butcherblock was rumored to be.
Due to the uncontrollable orc population, I died a few times. Then when I found Butcherblock, I died again. Somewhere around there I decided following paths was for the best and I ended up in Dagnor's Cauldron. Someone else in the zone answered my shouted queries and said that it was no place for anyone below level 20 so I quickly zoned out before anything ate me.
I eventually found my way to the docks and waited for the boat. I wasn't bored because the whole time was spent shouting for information on when the last boat had come by and how long it would take after that for the next. Of course, no one knew, but there was a lot of fun to be had speculating. Perhaps the boats were on a regular schedule, but what if pirates had attacked it mid-route and sunken the ship - or even stolen it? Someone shouted that there were worse things in the Ocean of Tears than pirates and that the dragon there could swallow the boat whole.
By the time the boat did dock, I wasn't sure I was ready to board it anyway. But I did. Before the boat had even left the dock, I had explored it completely. And no, I didn't fall off. I've never accidentally fallen off a boat, ever. Why? Well, I grew up in Kelethin and learned to walk carefully.
The boat zoned into OOT and I was on my way.
This post is getting awfully long, but I hope the point is pretty apparent from what I've already written. The adventure for me was in the unknown. It was still possible in my mind that anything could happen.
I didn't worry about the impossible game mechanics of a dragon that would swallow the boat whole. If I imagined it possible, surely the game developers had imagined it as well and I'd better be careful.
I actually walked around tree stumps in GFay clicking on them hoping they would zone me into a magical dryad zone.
When I got lost, I shouted for help in finding landmarks because I didn't realize all trees had to be the same to cut down on zone lag.
I wondered at who had made the paths through the forest and across the lands and tried to determine from the number of zigzags whether they had been good or evil and if that would indicate to me what lie ahead. Of course, I realized this was silly. Only a ranger would have the skill to know that.
I thought the orcs would invade Kelethin some day soon if I and my friends didn't kill a certain number of them every day. I knew it was important to kill the centurions before the pawns or they would shout orders out that the others would obey and outmaneuver us. Every time a pawn died shouting to the centurions to save him I hid.
I thought Dagnor's Cauldron would be a bubbling acidic lake governed by the great and powerful sorceror Dagnor who would pluck unwary adventurers from the chasm floor and use them for demonic magical experiments.
I spent half my boat travel clicking on the "bar" in the belly of the boat knowing that there had to be some way to order a drink or it wouldn't be there and the other half of the time cowering against the far side of the ship and hiding behind the mast so Gornit wouldn't see me and attack the ship.
I believed the rumors that the griffons in the Commonlands were over level 50 and each controlled by a GM. I looked for graveyards so I could return the bone chips I'd looted to their rightful burial spot and finally lay the undead souls to rest.
I still remember the day I stood in Kelethin and marvelled at the gnome in front of me. Surely he was a great warrior for having made such a journey all the way to my city. And surely he was rich beyond belief as he owned a full suit of real leather armor. I remember gang-rushing into Crushbone with 40+ people in vain hopes of taking down the vile guardian of the zone, the dreaded and undefeatable Ambassador D'Vinn. I remember saving up money to buy a sharpening stone so that I could begin to care for my rusty rapier (What respectable bard would be caught dead with so inelegant a weapon as a shortsword?) and turn it into an "uber" tarnished weapon, then being afraid to put them into a forge because I wouldn't be able to go on if I lost my weapon in the process.
The wonder of all of this was in the not knowing the possibilities and also in the trust of the developers that they could do anything they or I imagined. It was in this unlimited possibility that the adventure was found and the game was more than a game, but a new life. Since then, I've come to learn a lot about what can and can't be done within the EQ game mechanics. I've gotted to know the rules of spawn times and loot pools and tiled textures and repeatable quests, etc. The game is still fun for me, but it's only a game. The numbers are important these days. The imagination, unfortunately, isn't.
I enjoy playing EQ. But I remember how much fun it was when no one knew the answers or even the questions. I remember that even though there were those that had advantages of play time, lucky drops or even previous mud experience, we were still all pretty much on even footing because no one knew the extents of this new world. Those that had found something out about the world, or had leveled beyond us, killed something most of us ran from, or wielded a legendary item like the dragoon dirk were respected for their ability and sought for their advice. And it was freely given.
Even the upper tier of level 15s (rumors were that someone had hit level 20, but few believed it) were willing to help out brand new characters because we all survived that way - in a spirit of cooperation. The world was too big and too scary not to.
There was no competition for kills because no one knew the loot tables. If someone ran up and killed your orc, you thanked them for helping you rid your forest of the evil and moved on to the next kill. There were always enough around for experience. KS didn't mean a thing. Camping meant you were logging off. Buff meant a single spell from someone in your group. No one said LFG because all you had to do was stand in a crowded area and someone would join up with you. Drops went to the class that could use them. If no one in the group needed an item dropped, then a shout went out to the whole zone.
As I've said, I still enjoy EQ, but it's not the same. Please, Sigil, give me that old feeling of mystery and possibility. And please try to make it last as long as you can.
If you made it this far, I hope you understand why I kept this post for all these years. It perfectly described how it felt when an MMO was unbound by preconceptions and the player had yet to understand the underlaying mechanics of the game. When the idea of "builds" "min/maxing" or any kind of math behind the game was completely unimaginable. When every choice had consequences and you got sweatty palms whenever a new situation came along because actions had consequences. When classes were really different. When you NEEDED a cleric because only they could help you recover some exp, when you NEEDED a necromancer because only they could get your corpse out of a dungeon, when you NEEDED a wizard because travelling took time and was dangerous without them. - When classes was distinguished by real and powerfull differences, that each held importance to everyone else too. When game developers were not afraid of making us interact with eachother exactly because we needed those various differences to get through our gameplay, when it was alright, great even to have to contact a stranger for a buff or aid, and make friends that way in the process. And when no instances excisted, which meant that everyone needed to co-exist with eachother to play the game.
I mean I haven't liked a single one since 2005 and have been looking in the genre ever since. My point is however that the MMORPG genre has evolved into this WoW clone genre, where you make a character, log in, speak to an npc to kill 10 rats, do this until you're high enough level to get to the next zone, to repeat it all again. You then end up doing this until you get to the end game which is made up of standing around wondering what to do because you're bored of Battlegrounds and bored of instances.
I got into the genre back in the day because I wanted virtual worlds, games back then offered this and they were all massively different from each other as the genre was in it's infancy and we didn't have many worlds. Now however MMORPG just means a game like WoW and I know EQ fanbois will be complaining, however they aren't true EQ fans. I mean I'm sick of these people who pop up and say WoW is an EQ clone........ sorry but play EQ from 2000 and play WoW from 2004, they were massivel different games, that is why EQ people hated it.
The MMO genre was also one that amazed graphically as well as scale wise. I mean the genre has this weird perception now where it's always looked bad and never been immersive and now every MMO is some cartoony thing... again thanx to WoW. I remember pre WoW where I was thinking the graphics are amazing for what it was doing. I remember playing EQ in Upper School and my parents saying how good looking it was and I remember games like EQ2 and SWG blowing everyones minds. I mean even Planetside looked good back in 2003, I was blown away with many things in that game. The genre has seemed to given in though to the current gen consoles and never truely entered the DX9 era and just seemed to have stuck with WoW graphics.
After playing Dayz I realised it isn't me, it's the games and how when a game creates an amazing world with challenge, not only do I jump on it, but so do 1.6 million other gamers. I realised that the MMORPG genre that I used to love was basically a genre for emergent gaming, a sandbox one where we create the story and one where we have control.
I reminded myself, I love SIm City, I love The SIms, I love EVE Online, I love Dayz, ArmA and every other game in this style. My Fave MMOS were EQ Pre Luclin/PoP, EVE, PoP and SWG Pre CU. My fave games are the Dayz or the GTAs or the Euro Truck Simulators lol. Ones that are for the hardcore, ones that don't treat the gamer as dumb, ones that you create the story and give you control.
There is nothing more boring to me than doing a kill 10 rats quest for some NPC who gives me some shit 3 line dialogue of story for why I'm doing it over and over again. Even games like SWTOR or GW2 where people claimed they were different, I ended up doing the same thing over and over.
So I realise, this genre is dead and the games I strive for aren't part of it.
I totally agree with the OP. I had this epiphanie a few years ago. I realized that killing 10 rats or whatever for rewards just isn't fun. I don't care about what the reward is i want to have fun playing the game. Spamming some rotation on mobs over and over again for hours a day is not fun for me. Neither is playing simon says with idiotic bosses in instances. The genre has become a Pavlovian nightmare where millions of players keep mashing buttons in hopes of getting that treasured fish biscuit.
Now, I don't think the genre is completely worthless. With the glorious crashing and burning of SWTOR, which I both predicted and delighted in, future developers seem to be moving away from the WoW clone concept. I've actually seen a few MMORPGs that are *gasp* actually fun. Grinding mobs for xp is boring. Grinding quests for xp is boring. Never again. I'm playing Age of Wushu now because it does away with all that crap.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now! I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
Originally posted by Burntvet The thing that makes me wonder though, is that as large as the gaming market is, there does not seem to be much for people that actually like "older style" MMO. Aside from Eve, and a bunch of underfunded, under-developed sad indie MMO attempts, there is basically nothing. You'd think one of the major or even middle sized MMO company might want a piece of that market segment, but instead, we get the next standard themepark of the week or F2P whatever. It seems to be a market segment that the next well done game is going to dominate.
I agree that there aren't many people who like "older style" MMO.
I never said that at all, and I think just the opposite, frankly. What I said was, for people that like that style of gaming, there is almost nothing. And for a "industry" as large as computer gaming has become, in its many forms, I find that surprising.
That's about as silly as saying "for automobile enthusiasts who enjoy crank-starting their cars, there is nothing and that's surprising!" No it isn't, these are just people who haven't moved on with the times. We should expect there to be little or nothing for them, they represent a minuscule minority.
Originally posted by Burntvet The thing that makes me wonder though, is that as large as the gaming market is, there does not seem to be much for people that actually like "older style" MMO. Aside from Eve, and a bunch of underfunded, under-developed sad indie MMO attempts, there is basically nothing. You'd think one of the major or even middle sized MMO company might want a piece of that market segment, but instead, we get the next standard themepark of the week or F2P whatever. It seems to be a market segment that the next well done game is going to dominate.
I agree that there aren't many people who like "older style" MMO.
I never said that at all, and I think just the opposite, frankly. What I said was, for people that like that style of gaming, there is almost nothing. And for a "industry" as large as computer gaming has become, in its many forms, I find that surprising.
That's about as silly as saying "for automobile enthusiasts who enjoy crank-starting their cars, there is nothing and that's surprising!" No it isn't, these are just people who haven't moved on with the times. We should expect there to be little or nothing for them, they represent a minuscule minority.
Yet they are the loudest and first to attack on any game as being utter crap because it wasn't made just for them...I wonder if the active MMORPG.com community represents close to 100% of them...it's possible....
Old MMOs didn't lose their playerbase. Many of them are still chugging along. Some of them were modified because publishers wanted WoW money and then the player base got pissed and they ended up closing. Like SWG. Some of them like EvE have more players than they did before. Some of them like WURM, ATITD and others are still chugging along at a similar level of activity.
EQ still has a substantial playerbase as well, even if they lost a lot of it, shocker, by trying to become more like WoW. Ultima Online is still running as well.
Its been a long time since they've been relevant. A dev would have to be braindead to release an oldschool MMO right now. Most people have moved on, you've moved on. We know of something better so we don't have to endure all the shitty things they made us to do.
The novelty is long gone.
That's not what he said though.
On the issue you are raising:
Modern MMOs didn't improve on old ones. They aren't the same kind of game. If someone came out with an old style MMO with a graphical update and an improvement to the things that made MMOs great it would be popular. Maybe not WoW popular, but then RIFT and SWTOR weren't WoW popular either.
Considering how AOC and WAR and SWG went down the toilet followng the "new" MMO model, it can't be that great.
Of course no one has made an MMO like that, even if a few companies are currently trying. I think they aren't going far enough though.
The problem is, a few developers have created and released games like the old ones. They just were either ill received, too niche for the developers to accept, or had a poor launch leading to a low population. Vanguard, Darkfall, Fallen Earth, Mortal Online among others are on that list.
The sights of developers are too high after WoW. Vanguard could of had a healthy several hundred thousand playerbase if it had a solid development team behind it after release. However, the sandbox games DF, MO, and FE were just too niche to garner more than 50k. That's piss poor no matter how you slice it.
Old MMOs didn't lose their playerbase. Many of them are still chugging along. Some of them were modified because publishers wanted WoW money and then the player base got pissed and they ended up closing. Like SWG. Some of them like EvE have more players than they did before. Some of them like WURM, ATITD and others are still chugging along at a similar level of activity.
EQ still has a substantial playerbase as well, even if they lost a lot of it, shocker, by trying to become more like WoW. Ultima Online is still running as well.
Its been a long time since they've been relevant. A dev would have to be braindead to release an oldschool MMO right now. Most people have moved on, you've moved on. We know of something better so we don't have to endure all the shitty things they made us to do.
The novelty is long gone.
That's not what he said though.
On the issue you are raising:
Modern MMOs didn't improve on old ones. They aren't the same kind of game. If someone came out with an old style MMO with a graphical update and an improvement to the things that made MMOs great it would be popular. Maybe not WoW popular, but then RIFT and SWTOR weren't WoW popular either.
Considering how AOC and WAR and SWG went down the toilet followng the "new" MMO model, it can't be that great.
Of course no one has made an MMO like that, even if a few companies are currently trying. I think they aren't going far enough though.
The problem is, a few developers have created and released games like the old ones. They just were either ill received, too niche for the developers to accept, or had a poor launch leading to a low population. Vanguard, Darkfall, Fallen Earth, Mortal Online among others are on that list.
The sights of developers are too high after WoW. Vanguard could of had a healthy several hundred thousand playerbase if it had a solid development team behind it after release. However, the sandbox games DF, MO, and FE were just too niche to garner more than 50k. That's piss poor no matter how you slice it.
While some old MMO's have managed to retain their playerbase, most have lost significant portions.
UO, and EQ while still having a decent base are only a fraction what they were before, DAOC a tiny fracation.
Put it this way.
If it is going to cost you 10-50 million to make a game you have a choice. Aim for a 100,000 person market (just making numbers of for comparison) and hope to get/retain 20% of it, and hope thats enough to pay the bills. Or aim for the 2 million player market, hope to get/retain 20% of it and hope that is enough to pay the bills.
Which do you think is the more reasonable choice?
edit - The caveat in all of this is that we really have no idea how big the market for old school games actually is.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I have a feeling that the genre will be very different 5 years from now.
The "genre" is already very different. I think people have lost sight of games that are like MMOs, but not quite, and MMO ideas going into other genre.
If you use a strict definition of what a MMO is (by its traditional characteristics), then the genre will never really change, because you will just classify something new NOT a MMO, and thus outside of the genre. That is the problem here. People are too narrow.
If you include games that are like MMOs, or similar to part of MMOs, or take MMO features, then the "genre" has been changing and expanding. Some examples:
- ARPG with MMO featuers. Traditionally, ARPG are like MMOs anyway (focus on combat & progression). D3 add AH & crafting. PoE adds persistent zones. Personally i think these games are very close to combat centric MMOs, and don't evaluate them differently.
- MOBA and other instanced based pvp games (like WOT, and Star Conflict) .. essentially takes MMO progression, arena combat, and focus on that.
- "world war games" like PS2 .. essentially take the open world pvp idea and runs with it.
- instanced pve games (DDO, vindictice, SD gundam ...) .. just do dungeon runs, and nothing else.
- Destiny is going to be a new kind of online game with some MMO features (i.e. shared world shooter)
You're missing the point of what makes a MMO a MMO. MMO is the acronym that symbolizes that this game will have a persistant world and that you'll be able to play with thousands of other players on the same server. That's all it takes to earn the MMO tag. Now, the RPG, FPS, RTS, and etc tags that go along with it hold the same requirements to hold them as their single player counterparts.
The problem many people on this site have is that developers are copying features from other games, making new games feel exactly alike older games. They're mistakingly thinking that those features is what defines a MMORPG, which is wrong. The term was defined well over a decade ago and hasn't changed. If developers want to breathe life into the MMO genre, they'll have to innovate and stop copying the same features from previous games.
I started playing mmo's years back and have to agree. The earlier pre 2004 mmo's where better. since then not much has been able to hold my attention except lotro.
But when companies like Funcom release a steaming pile of crap like secret world with bugs etc. and take forever to fix anything, eventually caving into the FTP option 6 months in. It really makes it hard to like the genre at all. Sick of being ripped of by promises from dev's that they dont follow through on and sick of cash grabbing companies.
When did mmo's go from being a fun, group based adventure to a half working, rushed money grab
I have gone back to playing single player games and non mmo multiplayer games and wont be forking out any more cash on mmo's any time soon or until a games proven to be good. Throwing away $250 on a lifetime account for TSW based on promises was the last nail in the mmo coffin for me.
loved the trip down nostalgia lane ,remember logging on with 3 other newbies in kelethin getting drunk and 2 fell out of trees but yeah mmos have gone a bit predictable but im always hoping to find a gem lets hope its the Elder scrolls
I find it interesting to note that while MMORPG was coined by Garriot, MMOG was around long long before. All he did was add the roleplaying part to the name.
I have a feeling that the genre will be very different 5 years from now.
The "genre" is already very different. I think people have lost sight of games that are like MMOs, but not quite, and MMO ideas going into other genre.
If you use a strict definition of what a MMO is (by its traditional characteristics), then the genre will never really change, because you will just classify something new NOT a MMO, and thus outside of the genre. That is the problem here. People are too narrow.
If you include games that are like MMOs, or similar to part of MMOs, or take MMO features, then the "genre" has been changing and expanding. Some examples:
- ARPG with MMO featuers. Traditionally, ARPG are like MMOs anyway (focus on combat & progression). D3 add AH & crafting. PoE adds persistent zones. Personally i think these games are very close to combat centric MMOs, and don't evaluate them differently.
- MOBA and other instanced based pvp games (like WOT, and Star Conflict) .. essentially takes MMO progression, arena combat, and focus on that.
- "world war games" like PS2 .. essentially take the open world pvp idea and runs with it.
- instanced pve games (DDO, vindictice, SD gundam ...) .. just do dungeon runs, and nothing else.
- Destiny is going to be a new kind of online game with some MMO features (i.e. shared world shooter)
You're missing the point of what makes a MMO a MMO. MMO is the acronym that symbolizes that this game will have a persistant world and that you'll be able to play with thousands of other players on the same server. That's all it takes to earn the MMO tag. Now, the RPG, FPS, RTS, and etc tags that go along with it hold the same requirements to hold them as their single player counterparts.
The problem many people on this site have is that developers are copying features from other games, making new games feel exactly alike older games. They're mistakingly thinking that those features is what defines a MMORPG, which is wrong. The term was defined well over a decade ago and hasn't changed. If developers want to breathe life into the MMO genre, they'll have to innovate and stop copying the same features from previous games.
Comments
I agree with your premise, although WoW had more competition than just the three games you mentioned at the time. WoW didn't have awesome graphics at the time either. WoW did deliver a more complete gaming experience though in terms of having a variety of things to do.
A mmo gamers first game experience will be the basis for any and all compairisons, because it's all they know from mmos. Unfortunately, post 2004, too many developers out there attempted to copy the WoW model. LotRO started as MEO (middle earth online), and was a drastically different game than what it turned out to be. However, at the same time, when a game tries to do something different, many gamers now piss and moan about that too. Look at the multiple threads that pop up about how GW2 should have had a hard trinity system, or quest hubs, etc.
The genre isn't dying, it's just morphed into a more shallow version. Too many developers are attempting to attract everyone, and the ones who don't mind designing a niche game can't seem to get the core of their own game right or playable. We're in a very weird period. There are some good games out there, but they don't seemingly have a similar staying power as the games of old.
With more competition from single player games with multiplayer capabilities, mobas, and more rpg elements in FPS games, perhaps some mmo developer won't be afraid to develop a game not for the masses. There some interesting games on the horizon, but who knows what path they will choose to take.
I bet that overall attention span is the problem here. Tenuous ability to stay on task demands games that are instant gratification strobe experiences. The newer gamers are probably doing so much multi-tasking while playing that the game itself cannot over-burden their ability to do one thing for any length of time.
Consoles had all the kids + low attention span folks, thus consoles had all the money. Now PC games are designed to try and grab that crowd and their cash.
WoW = biggest signpost telling ADHD gamers "Come this way..."
Big Success
In-Depth games die
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Or they will compete with these other types of games more effectively by incorporating their ideas .. more action combat, lobby matching, more game like, less world like.
You know the saying .. if you can't beat them, join them.
It's not a problem. The culture is changing. Change, in and of itself, is not a problem. Where it becomes a problem is when elements of the culture refuse to change along with everyone else. It's when people start thinking they represent the good in a society of bad. It's absolutely absurd when people start thinking that games... GAMES are any more important than that. It would be like Monopoly enthusiasts screaming that the world is going to hell because they're swapping out the iron for a cat.
Guys, it's just a fucking game, get the hell over it.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
As tempting as it is to blame WoW, we must blame the bottom-feeding competitors who failed, utterly, to determine exactly why Wow did so well.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Did you even read what I wrote, or did you just jump into defense mode about a game?.. Child obesity is up, reading skills and education in general is dropping.. and you think change is good? I have news for you and others.. online activity is NOT a social life, and playing a Wii or Xbox is NOT exercise or sport..... Socieity is changing and it is a problem.. Our economy is as fragile as an egg, and is only held together with superficial numbers.. Greece is the first of many nations that are going broke.. Much of our society reminds me of WALL-E... Why walk when I can segway..?
Yeah .. online activity is not a social life. People should stop trying to find a social life in MMOs .. and treat them as what they are .. online games.
I agree that there aren't many people who like "older style" MMO. Personally i have played those, and think that modern games are much better.
However, i disagree that standard themepark is the future. I think the future is a hybrid MMO/other genre. Games like LOL, WOT, D3, PoE, Neverwinter ... which have some MMO elements, and also non-MMO elements.
Pure MMO is not interesting to me anymore.
No, I'd like to think that the Anti-Christ wouldn't become so lazy halfway through taking over the world.
Exactly, No real games out there today, so a huge segment of the MMO market has left the building. Companies who fail to understand the market will fail. It's already started. Look at all the downsizing and layoffs. Bankruptices will follow.
No, I'd like to think that the Anti-Christ wouldn't become so lazy halfway through taking over the world.rofl exactly.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
I agree that there aren't many people who like "older style" MMO.
I never said that at all, and I think just the opposite, frankly. What I said was, for people that like that style of gaming, there is almost nothing. And for a "industry" as large as computer gaming has become, in its many forms, I find that surprising.In that case, i will disagree. I think not many like the "older style" MMO. In fact, the market speaks quite loudly about that. Look at what is popular, and what sells.
The reason why you don't find that many offering with that style is pretty much the evidence that it is not popular anymore.
And don't tell me devs don't know how to make games people love. Look at LOL, WOT, D3 .. even GW2. There are lots of successes recently. Just that they are not traditional MMOs.
Holy fucking wall of text!
I totally agree with the OP. I had this epiphanie a few years ago. I realized that killing 10 rats or whatever for rewards just isn't fun. I don't care about what the reward is i want to have fun playing the game. Spamming some rotation on mobs over and over again for hours a day is not fun for me. Neither is playing simon says with idiotic bosses in instances. The genre has become a Pavlovian nightmare where millions of players keep mashing buttons in hopes of getting that treasured fish biscuit.
Now, I don't think the genre is completely worthless. With the glorious crashing and burning of SWTOR, which I both predicted and delighted in, future developers seem to be moving away from the WoW clone concept. I've actually seen a few MMORPGs that are *gasp* actually fun. Grinding mobs for xp is boring. Grinding quests for xp is boring. Never again. I'm playing Age of Wushu now because it does away with all that crap.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
That's about as silly as saying "for automobile enthusiasts who enjoy crank-starting their cars, there is nothing and that's surprising!" No it isn't, these are just people who haven't moved on with the times. We should expect there to be little or nothing for them, they represent a minuscule minority.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Yet they are the loudest and first to attack on any game as being utter crap because it wasn't made just for them...I wonder if the active MMORPG.com community represents close to 100% of them...it's possible....
The problem is, a few developers have created and released games like the old ones. They just were either ill received, too niche for the developers to accept, or had a poor launch leading to a low population. Vanguard, Darkfall, Fallen Earth, Mortal Online among others are on that list.
The sights of developers are too high after WoW. Vanguard could of had a healthy several hundred thousand playerbase if it had a solid development team behind it after release. However, the sandbox games DF, MO, and FE were just too niche to garner more than 50k. That's piss poor no matter how you slice it.
While some old MMO's have managed to retain their playerbase, most have lost significant portions.
UO, and EQ while still having a decent base are only a fraction what they were before, DAOC a tiny fracation.
Put it this way.
If it is going to cost you 10-50 million to make a game you have a choice. Aim for a 100,000 person market (just making numbers of for comparison) and hope to get/retain 20% of it, and hope thats enough to pay the bills. Or aim for the 2 million player market, hope to get/retain 20% of it and hope that is enough to pay the bills.
Which do you think is the more reasonable choice?
edit - The caveat in all of this is that we really have no idea how big the market for old school games actually is.
You're missing the point of what makes a MMO a MMO. MMO is the acronym that symbolizes that this game will have a persistant world and that you'll be able to play with thousands of other players on the same server. That's all it takes to earn the MMO tag. Now, the RPG, FPS, RTS, and etc tags that go along with it hold the same requirements to hold them as their single player counterparts.
The problem many people on this site have is that developers are copying features from other games, making new games feel exactly alike older games. They're mistakingly thinking that those features is what defines a MMORPG, which is wrong. The term was defined well over a decade ago and hasn't changed. If developers want to breathe life into the MMO genre, they'll have to innovate and stop copying the same features from previous games.
I started playing mmo's years back and have to agree. The earlier pre 2004 mmo's where better. since then not much has been able to hold my attention except lotro.
But when companies like Funcom release a steaming pile of crap like secret world with bugs etc. and take forever to fix anything, eventually caving into the FTP option 6 months in. It really makes it hard to like the genre at all. Sick of being ripped of by promises from dev's that they dont follow through on and sick of cash grabbing companies.
When did mmo's go from being a fun, group based adventure to a half working, rushed money grab
I have gone back to playing single player games and non mmo multiplayer games and wont be forking out any more cash on mmo's any time soon or until a games proven to be good. Throwing away $250 on a lifetime account for TSW based on promises was the last nail in the mmo coffin for me.
I find it interesting to note that while MMORPG was coined by Garriot, MMOG was around long long before. All he did was add the roleplaying part to the name.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_massively_multiplayer_online_games
My fire for MMORPGs has died aswell.
Every P2P mmorpg copies WoW to get enough subs to stay alive.
If a developer tries to do something different they don't get enough subs and sooner or later turn the game into a poorly designed F2P.
All of the F2P/B2P MMORPGs are completely unbalanced and even the few gems have ruined cash shops.
I'll probably return to MMORPGs one day when a game with:
P2P
Only cosmetical microtransactions.
Deep yet casual friendly endgame (No forced dailies etc.)
One character game, no need for alts.
No artificial content progression limits, i.e no dungeon lockouts.
Huge character progression in sense of skills/items/status.