The new generation of MMO's has been spawned by the generation of instant gratification. Kids who grew up with smartphones and constantly being told they are special and cannot fail. A generation of people who got trophies weather they won or lost. It's this generation that is programming now. They are catering to their own generation of instant gratification peers. They don't want to work to an end, they want to jump in and be all powerful from the get go. And that mindset and upbringing, in my opinion, is hurting, or changing rather, the landscape of the entire MMO industry.
So there you go, there's my theory if you don't like it..
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Most people who "grew up" with smart phones as "kids" are about 16-20 years old right now. They probably aren't programming anything professionally, yet, and they are most definitely not making game design decisions.
Sure sounded good, tho.
Got that "instant gratification" in there, assigned motivations and attitudes to 'em, used that "catering" word, lazy, want it all handed to them--that post's got it all!
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
"Old timers"? I know this has been said a lot here, but simply following what the majority of players are playing today is a sure way to make sure your product fails. Why? Because in order to stay relevant in the future, companies need to be looking forward far beyond what their rabid fans are happy about today. Failure do so will mean one day their product will be abondoned and left for dead, as the masses move on to the next shiny thing that catches their eye.
By the time that happens, they will have already made their money and moved on to something else. The entire computer game industry isn't about sticking with a single product for years on end, it's about producing a game, making a profit and doing something else. Otherwise, they wouldn't come out with a new Call of Duty game every year or two, they wouldn't keep making different Elder Scroll games, there wouldn't be a new Madden football game every year, etc. They don't care about keeping an old game with old technology going for years on end.
There's something to be said about listening to the educated and vocal minority. Not the people who complain just to complain, but the players who may know more about the MMO industry as whole because they have a much wider exposure to it than someone who just makes and sells MMO games and drinks their own corporate cool-aid. How many themeparks have become niche games on life-support in recent years? How many have been shut down completely at a fairly young age?
That's not because they don't listen to the old-timers, that's because there are too many damn games out there and it's only getting worse. It was bad enough when there were 10 games a year released, but last year there were nearly 60 and that number is only going up. There are more games on the market than there are people to populate them long-term.
The other thing you fail to notice is that there is plenty of room for different kinds of players. Some people like the hand-held, force fed story and progression of developer made themepark content. Others, like me, prefer to forge our own advanture through a game world, occasionally dabbling in developer made content for fun. Trying to lump people into black and white mindsets like "majority" and "old timers" is a painfully shallow view of the situation.
That may be the case, but not all kinds of players are equal when it comes to the money that can be made from them. These games are horrendously expensive and time consuming to create. No one in their right mind is going to make a game that only appeals to a tiny niche audience. Not only is there no significant profit in it for them, but their financial backers would never allow it. It doesn't matter what you prefer, it matters what makes money.
The point is that more and more people are figuring this out and asking for more. There is a trend in the direction of people wanting more out of these games than just themepark content. I've watched it grow daily for the past few years and the posts of people complaining about being bored in *all* of the themeparks are steadily increasing. And no, it's not just the same people posting.
Game developers can pretend they are safe because so many people don't know better today, but we all know here that most of these new themeparks basically fail, especially from their larger business goals. Most of them become niche games with far fewer players than they planned on, and server merges galore.
Look at WoW. Why do so many people still play it? Because why not? The most you will get from the other themeparks is better graphics and same-old gameplay. What's the motivator to change when these games *play* basically the same?
Where exactly is this trend? If you're talking about this forum, you're going to have to realize that what happens here means somewhere between jack and shit. Why do so many people play WoW? Because they enjoy it! They have fun doing it! Further, most developers make the majority of their money right after launch, they make back their investment and a tidy profit and if the whole game falls apart in 6 months, who cares, they're already working on the sequel.
I mean I haven't liked a single one since 2005 and have been looking in the genre ever since. My point is however that the MMORPG genre has evolved into this WoW clone genre, where you make a character, log in, speak to an npc to kill 10 rats, do this until you're high enough level to get to the next zone, to repeat it all again. You then end up doing this until you get to the end game which is made up of standing around wondering what to do because you're bored of Battlegrounds and bored of instances.
And how exactly is Everquest different to this? Make a character grind a billion rats in zone A, grind a billion bats in zone B and do this until you are high enough level to get to the next zone, to repeat it all again. You do this for eternity in EQ as you are probably not reaching max level any time soon. At endgame EQ was exactly the same. Raids, raids, raids, raids.
See I can do that too. Sum up EQ in one paragraph the same way you did with WoW
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
I don't think the genre is dead, its just stale. The idea of a large game world with millions of little nerdlets running around pretending to be things is still a promising and fruitfull premise. Its just that almost every big budget venture into this concept has been done in the safest tried and true measure that we feel as if we're being led by the hand through the same amusement park that's just been recently repainted.
It takes me all of a day now to figure out if I can spend months let alone years on a game.
MMO gods....you have to realize that the cash cow is running out. People are catching on homedawgs. Its time to use your imaginations again.
BTW Planetside 2 is still awesome ^^, but then again its not your typical MMO. Although I can't play it all day like I used to with some MMOs its not necessarily designed to be lived in. Only to be WAAAAGHed in.
Nothing stale about it, you have at least 5-6 triple-A quality MMO's coming out within hte next year and most of them are as far removed from WoW as the original 3 were. If this was 2007, I would agree with you but when you got games like, Neverwinter, ESO, EQN,AA, Repop, and Wildstar all releasing within the next year it looks better then ever and makes you sound foolish to say the genre is stale.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
The gaming industry is basically following in the footsteps of Hollywood. That's great if you like disposable popcorn entertainment, or endless sequals, or reboots, etc.. Not so great if you like any depth. Seriously look at the industry, and you'll see all the parallels, and it starts with the small number of very large publishers that control nearly all the green-light decisions.
I don't think the genre is dead, its just stale. The idea of a large game world with millions of little nerdlets running around pretending to be things is still a promising and fruitfull premise. Its just that almost every big budget venture into this concept has been done in the safest tried and true measure that we feel as if we're being led by the hand through the same amusement park that's just been recently repainted.
It takes me all of a day now to figure out if I can spend months let alone years on a game.
MMO gods....you have to realize that the cash cow is running out. People are catching on homedawgs. Its time to use your imaginations again.
BTW Planetside 2 is still awesome ^^, but then again its not your typical MMO. Although I can't play it all day like I used to with some MMOs its not necessarily designed to be lived in. Only to be WAAAAGHed in.
Nothing stale about it, you have at least 5-6 triple-A quality MMO's coming out within hte next year and most of them are as far removed from WoW as the original 3 were. If this was 2007, I would agree with you but when you got games like, Neverwinter, ESO, EQN,AA, Repop, and Wildstar all releasing within the next year it looks better then ever and makes you sound foolish to say the genre is stale.
AAA games basically equal summer blockbuster films. Heavy on explosions and special effects, but not really all that great. The fact that all of the AAA stuff that's coming out is basically either rehashing existing designs, albiet with a few F2P tweaks, doesn't exactly make for very exciting releases.
I said is in my thread before. The genre isn't dying. It's just that the mindset has changed and developers aren't changing with the new mindset.
the same music that was in the 80s and 90s isn't popular anymore in 2013 like it once was. Why? Because mindset of consumer changed. What's so hard to understand about that?
Well to pick up on your comparision, music is suposed to make you dance, feel good, feel bad, feel nostalgic, feel sleepy, have sex, attend a funeral, celebrate a birthday and so on.
To me music hasn't changed at all, today's music still does all that and has done so for centuries. It's the whole purpose of music.
Back to the games. It's not about how the games technically change. To me it's about how they change our approach to the game. It looks more like coop adventure games these days with very limited depth. The whole reason you play MMO's in today's titles is different than the older ones. Yes I take the most hated MMO of all time: WoW
But I've played some EQ2, and I believe EVE certainly still respect those old principles even if the package is completely different.
We don't need popularity in games, we need quality ;-)
I don't know, it's late, maybe I don't make any sense at all.
I actually think OPs vision is pretty good one. Games these days do the same what game in old days did.. only they are focused more on different generation. Just like music.
If we go further.... you could say vanilla wow and gw2 are 2 very different games. But so is 80s music and these days music. Still there are people that enjoy 80s music and hate today's music... the same way people like vanilla wow and don't like action combat of gw2.
I don't know, did we just hit "generation problem" in gaming? Maybe "grandpas" of gaming are getting conservative and say "when we were young, games were so much more fun..." etc.
I said is in my thread before. The genre isn't dying. It's just that the mindset has changed and developers aren't changing with the new mindset.
the same music that was in the 80s and 90s isn't popular anymore in 2013 like it once was. Why? Because mindset of consumer changed. What's so hard to understand about that?
Well to pick up on your comparision, music is suposed to make you dance, feel good, feel bad, feel nostalgic, feel sleepy, have sex, attend a funeral, celebrate a birthday and so on.
To me music hasn't changed at all, today's music still does all that and has done so for centuries. It's the whole purpose of music.
Back to the games. It's not about how the games technically change. To me it's about how they change our approach to the game. It looks more like coop adventure games these days with very limited depth. The whole reason you play MMO's in today's titles is different than the older ones. Yes I take the most hated MMO of all time: WoW
But I've played some EQ2, and I believe EVE certainly still respect those old principles even if the package is completely different.
We don't need popularity in games, we need quality ;-)
I don't know, it's late, maybe I don't make any sense at all.
I actually think OPs vision is pretty good one. Games these days do the same what game in old days did.. only they are focused more on different generation. Just like music.
If we go further.... you could say vanilla wow and gw2 are 2 very different games. But so is 80s music and these days music. Still there are people that enjoy 80s music and hate today's music... the same way people like vanilla wow and don't like action combat of gw2.
I don't know, did we just hit "generation problem" in gaming? Maybe "grandpas" of gaming are getting conservative and say "when we were young, games were so much more fun..." etc.
Yeah we could debate this to death sure why not, I like doing that while being paid to do other things :-)
But I'll keep it short.
In fact I agree perhaps there is a generation clash indeed. But in that case It's better we just finish with it and say the only truth. The MMORPG is dead. It's a new generation and it contains many new elements at the cost of the core elements of what used to be the MMORPG. There is no shame in saying that. We don't call our music today disco do we?
Originally posted by 77lolmac77 Non-sandbox MMO's and drug addictions are more similiar than a lot realize. And id like to think I know a lot about both.
I got a fresh cup of coffee and everything. Planned on a long post explaining my points of view.
Bleh.
Why?
I am just one lone gamer and frankly my opinion only matters to me.
To that point I will keep my remarks short, and to the point.
At their inception I thought the idea of "living in an online virtual world", was most probably some sort of mental dysfunction. Later, I found that getting to play in a group with others was quite fun. Now I find the focus on solo play until a threshold is reached and you then do an instance of approiprate level, followed by more solo content, to just be tedious. For me, the point is to play with others in these games. Yet, the general attitude seems to be one of, join a guild so you have someone to chat with while you solo thes 10 levels to the next instance. I played City of for years and it was always one I came back to. Less and less over the years as NC caved and "Smoothed the leveling curve", "Made the game more solo friendly", and finally "Added incarnate trials, and the gear grind they brought". I still think back to those days and long to run a lowbie through the sewers, take part in a PUG Hamidon raid, or do any of the Task Forces. SImply put I long for group interaction, not chat, or zerged events, but real group play.
I see now I have begun to ramble. Meh.
I don't cry or despair, I move on. Now I paint miniatures and roll REAL dice. I find it brings a much larger sence of accomplishment.
I will try the new ones as they come out I always enjoy the 1st month or so when everyone is working together to figure things out and explore new things. Mabye one of these coming out will get me to play longer than a few months. I am looking for a game that will keep me entertained for years not months.
I still give em a chance just havnt found anything of interest for awhile now. Mabye games are getting easier, I like to think Im getting smarter. One day I will be the smarterest and I will just create my own game.
Originally posted by 77lolmac77 Non-sandbox MMO's and drug addictions are more similiar than a lot realize. And id like to think I know a lot about both.
Gaming in general is addicting, not just MMO's.
Skinner boxes are addicting, finely sculpted games, books, movies, songs, etc are compelling, learn the difference gents.
I don't think the genre is dead, its just stale. The idea of a large game world with millions of little nerdlets running around pretending to be things is still a promising and fruitfull premise. Its just that almost every big budget venture into this concept has been done in the safest tried and true measure that we feel as if we're being led by the hand through the same amusement park that's just been recently repainted.
It takes me all of a day now to figure out if I can spend months let alone years on a game.
MMO gods....you have to realize that the cash cow is running out. People are catching on homedawgs. Its time to use your imaginations again.
BTW Planetside 2 is still awesome ^^, but then again its not your typical MMO. Although I can't play it all day like I used to with some MMOs its not necessarily designed to be lived in. Only to be WAAAAGHed in.
Nothing stale about it, you have at least 5-6 triple-A quality MMO's coming out within hte next year and most of them are as far removed from WoW as the original 3 were. If this was 2007, I would agree with you but when you got games like, Neverwinter, ESO, EQN,AA, Repop, and Wildstar all releasing within the next year it looks better then ever and makes you sound foolish to say the genre is stale.
To re-quote Theocritus from post #29 in this thread,
" People always think great games are coming and when these great games finally launch we learn they aren't so great......"
I'll be very surprised if even 2 or 3 of the titles you mentioned don't end up following the traditional launch and tank model that most other titles in the past 6 years or so have gone. (outside of WOW, EVE and a handful of others)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
OP, it's hard to like anything if all you think of any game is "just another WoW clone"
Try going in positive. Maybe WoW and some of the other themepark type MMOs aren't as bad as you envision. Nobody is going to make the perfect game that you dream about. So either alter your tastes or move on.
No, they're pretty awful. Like, mental abortion game design wise.
Nobody is asking for a perfect MMO, just a decent one.
Man, telling someone to alter their tastes... these kinds of apologists need to go.
Awful to you. Modern MMOs are much better games than the old ones, to me. It is just a matter of preferences.
And no, no one is asking you to alter your taste. However, it is also fair game to point out that your taste is out of step with the modern times, and no devs have any obligations to make games that you like.
I don't think the genre is dead, its just stale. The idea of a large game world with millions of little nerdlets running around pretending to be things is still a promising and fruitfull premise. Its just that almost every big budget venture into this concept has been done in the safest tried and true measure that we feel as if we're being led by the hand through the same amusement park that's just been recently repainted.
It takes me all of a day now to figure out if I can spend months let alone years on a game.
MMO gods....you have to realize that the cash cow is running out. People are catching on homedawgs. Its time to use your imaginations again.
BTW Planetside 2 is still awesome ^^, but then again its not your typical MMO. Although I can't play it all day like I used to with some MMOs its not necessarily designed to be lived in. Only to be WAAAAGHed in.
Nothing stale about it, you have at least 5-6 triple-A quality MMO's coming out within hte next year and most of them are as far removed from WoW as the original 3 were. If this was 2007, I would agree with you but when you got games like, Neverwinter, ESO, EQN,AA, Repop, and Wildstar all releasing within the next year it looks better then ever and makes you sound foolish to say the genre is stale.
To re-quote Theocritus from post #29 in this thread,
" People always think great games are coming and when these great games finally launch we learn they aren't so great......"
I'll be very surprised if even 2 or 3 of the titles you mentioned don't end up following the traditional launch and tank model that most other titles in the past 6 years or so have gone. (outside of WOW, EVE and a handful of others)
Of those mentioned Repop will be interesting to see and Neverwinter online mainly because the former promises allot while the latter is the best iteration I can think of of the WoW model game.
So the debate is.. "fast food players vs. cook a meal at home players"?
Old school players grew up using the entire kitchen to make a meal, whereas the new skool players loving fast food or anything that can be microwaved in seconds.. I guess it is all preferences.. But times are changing, I see it in the schools each year.. The size of marching bands are dwindling with each class, and how many people actually take part in after school programs like thespians? Even the all mighty sports interest havce slowed down a bit.. Less and less people are taking part in offline activities.. Golf leagues are suffering, Bowling leagues have suffered tremendously.. The younger generation has little time for entertainment that takes months or years to pay off..
From where I sit, this isn't a MMORPG problem, but a cultural one as well.. Even the simple enjoyment of reading a book for leisure is declining, and statitistic show it having an important impact on society.. Old school has it's place in the world, that much is sure..
Nothing annoys me more than people saying WoW is similar to EQ. They are very different games. The thing I most enjoyed about MMO's was the social aspect of needing other players to do things. And by needing I do not mean I cannot do anything alone but I do mean I cannot make it to max level without ever needing another player. Or at the very least it should not be much more efficient to solo to max level than it is to play as a group... by all classes which now for some reason can do every single task.
All classes should not be tanks, should not have 2-10 crowd control abilities, should not be DPS, healers, utility. I should not be able to have a group with 3 paladins where 1 is tanking, 1 is healing, and 1 is dpsing, and then every single one has their own special buff. If there are classes they need to be well defined and not changeable. Hybrids work but you cannot have various roles like this. You need to be able to say this class will tank, this class will heal, this class will dps, and this class will be our CC. Maybe you can supplement but not every class should be able to fill any role and do it just as well as all the others.
WoW to me always sucked and I always blame it for the downfall of MMO. I blame the cartoon graphics brining in the younger kids who now seek clones of WoW which are not challenging, they are simply repetitive and not fun.
I mean I haven't liked a single one since 2005 and have been looking in the genre ever since. My point is however that the MMORPG genre has evolved into this WoW clone genre, where you make a character, log in, speak to an npc to kill 10 rats, do this until you're high enough level to get to the next zone, to repeat it all again. You then end up doing this until you get to the end game which is made up of standing around wondering what to do because you're bored of Battlegrounds and bored of instances.
I got into the genre back in the day because I wanted virtual worlds, games back then offered this and they were all massively different from each other as the genre was in it's infancy and we didn't have many worlds. Now however MMORPG just means a game like WoW and I know EQ fanbois will be complaining, however they aren't true EQ fans. I mean I'm sick of these people who pop up and say WoW is an EQ clone........ sorry but play EQ from 2000 and play WoW from 2004, they were massivel different games, that is why EQ people hated it.
The MMO genre was also one that amazed graphically as well as scale wise. I mean the genre has this weird perception now where it's always looked bad and never been immersive and now every MMO is some cartoony thing... again thanx to WoW. I remember pre WoW where I was thinking the graphics are amazing for what it was doing. I remember playing EQ in Upper School and my parents saying how good looking it was and I remember games like EQ2 and SWG blowing everyones minds. I mean even Planetside looked good back in 2003, I was blown away with many things in that game. The genre has seemed to given in though to the current gen consoles and never truely entered the DX9 era and just seemed to have stuck with WoW graphics.
After playing Dayz I realised it isn't me, it's the games and how when a game creates an amazing world with challenge, not only do I jump on it, but so do 1.6 million other gamers. I realised that the MMORPG genre that I used to love was basically a genre for emergent gaming, a sandbox one where we create the story and one where we have control.
I reminded myself, I love SIm City, I love The SIms, I love EVE Online, I love Dayz, ArmA and every other game in this style. My Fave MMOS were EQ Pre Luclin/PoP, EVE, PoP and SWG Pre CU. My fave games are the Dayz or the GTAs or the Euro Truck Simulators lol. Ones that are for the hardcore, ones that don't treat the gamer as dumb, ones that you create the story and give you control.
There is nothing more boring to me than doing a kill 10 rats quest for some NPC who gives me some shit 3 line dialogue of story for why I'm doing it over and over again. Even games like SWTOR or GW2 where people claimed they were different, I ended up doing the same thing over and over.
So I realise, this genre is dead and the games I strive for aren't part of it.
I don't think the genre is dead, but it certainly has changed into something bad compared to how it used to be. Overall, I agree with most of what you said. I miss gaming before the WoW revolution hit the genre.
1st of all, what your describing would be an everquest clone, your giveing blowzhard... err sorry, blizzard too much credit... second of all im guess WoW was your 1st MMO, you have to look at when wow came out, wow wasnt the 1st MMO, but they were the 1st that had great game play and awesome graphics, (its only competitors were Everquest 1, Ultima Online and Daoc.) and an engine that would run on almost any machine of the day... so you were spoiled on WoW... and you will never have the experience again... and this could be why you do not like other MMOs beacuse your 1st time OMFG experience is gone. and your obviously comparing every game you play to WoW, you need to stop doing this, beacuse most games, tho very simular in the basics, are totally differnt than WoW. If your looking for a game like WoW to bring back the killer, WoW experience... your not going to find it... beacuse not even WoW it self has that..
Originally posted by Burntvet As others have mentioned, even though some of the original games "exist", they are so far from their roots that they might as well not...
Yes exactly. Agreed, the MMORPG genre is actually shrinking.
Originally posted by Sovrath ...And the quests can be taken out, that's fine.
I hadn't considered this but I like the idea. In 8,000 hours of EQ, I rarely quested.
Games are costly today (and a dissapointment to their shareholders) because companies are not spending their money wisely. Voiceovers FTL. Great MMOs require technology, ability, vision, and leadership. We have plenty of the first two and almost none of the last two.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
The genre is dead it's just a question of whether someone will resurrect it anytime soon. Even WoW is mostly inactive accounts and people you log on once a week due to boredom.
Comments
Sure sounded good, tho.
Got that "instant gratification" in there, assigned motivations and attitudes to 'em, used that "catering" word, lazy, want it all handed to them--that post's got it all!
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
By the time that happens, they will have already made their money and moved on to something else. The entire computer game industry isn't about sticking with a single product for years on end, it's about producing a game, making a profit and doing something else. Otherwise, they wouldn't come out with a new Call of Duty game every year or two, they wouldn't keep making different Elder Scroll games, there wouldn't be a new Madden football game every year, etc. They don't care about keeping an old game with old technology going for years on end.
That's not because they don't listen to the old-timers, that's because there are too many damn games out there and it's only getting worse. It was bad enough when there were 10 games a year released, but last year there were nearly 60 and that number is only going up. There are more games on the market than there are people to populate them long-term.
That may be the case, but not all kinds of players are equal when it comes to the money that can be made from them. These games are horrendously expensive and time consuming to create. No one in their right mind is going to make a game that only appeals to a tiny niche audience. Not only is there no significant profit in it for them, but their financial backers would never allow it. It doesn't matter what you prefer, it matters what makes money.
Welcome to the real world.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Where exactly is this trend? If you're talking about this forum, you're going to have to realize that what happens here means somewhere between jack and shit. Why do so many people play WoW? Because they enjoy it! They have fun doing it! Further, most developers make the majority of their money right after launch, they make back their investment and a tidy profit and if the whole game falls apart in 6 months, who cares, they're already working on the sequel.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
And how exactly is Everquest different to this? Make a character grind a billion rats in zone A, grind a billion bats in zone B and do this until you are high enough level to get to the next zone, to repeat it all again. You do this for eternity in EQ as you are probably not reaching max level any time soon. At endgame EQ was exactly the same. Raids, raids, raids, raids.
See I can do that too. Sum up EQ in one paragraph the same way you did with WoW
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Nothing stale about it, you have at least 5-6 triple-A quality MMO's coming out within hte next year and most of them are as far removed from WoW as the original 3 were. If this was 2007, I would agree with you but when you got games like, Neverwinter, ESO, EQN,AA, Repop, and Wildstar all releasing within the next year it looks better then ever and makes you sound foolish to say the genre is stale.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
The gaming industry is basically following in the footsteps of Hollywood. That's great if you like disposable popcorn entertainment, or endless sequals, or reboots, etc.. Not so great if you like any depth. Seriously look at the industry, and you'll see all the parallels, and it starts with the small number of very large publishers that control nearly all the green-light decisions.
It's not just an MMO problem.
You make me like charity
AAA games basically equal summer blockbuster films. Heavy on explosions and special effects, but not really all that great. The fact that all of the AAA stuff that's coming out is basically either rehashing existing designs, albiet with a few F2P tweaks, doesn't exactly make for very exciting releases.
You make me like charity
I actually think OPs vision is pretty good one. Games these days do the same what game in old days did.. only they are focused more on different generation. Just like music.
If we go further.... you could say vanilla wow and gw2 are 2 very different games. But so is 80s music and these days music. Still there are people that enjoy 80s music and hate today's music... the same way people like vanilla wow and don't like action combat of gw2.
I don't know, did we just hit "generation problem" in gaming? Maybe "grandpas" of gaming are getting conservative and say "when we were young, games were so much more fun..." etc.
Yeah we could debate this to death sure why not, I like doing that while being paid to do other things :-)
But I'll keep it short.
In fact I agree perhaps there is a generation clash indeed. But in that case It's better we just finish with it and say the only truth. The MMORPG is dead. It's a new generation and it contains many new elements at the cost of the core elements of what used to be the MMORPG. There is no shame in saying that. We don't call our music today disco do we?
Gaming in general is addicting, not just MMO's.
I got a fresh cup of coffee and everything. Planned on a long post explaining my points of view.
Bleh.
Why?
I am just one lone gamer and frankly my opinion only matters to me.
To that point I will keep my remarks short, and to the point.
At their inception I thought the idea of "living in an online virtual world", was most probably some sort of mental dysfunction. Later, I found that getting to play in a group with others was quite fun. Now I find the focus on solo play until a threshold is reached and you then do an instance of approiprate level, followed by more solo content, to just be tedious. For me, the point is to play with others in these games. Yet, the general attitude seems to be one of, join a guild so you have someone to chat with while you solo thes 10 levels to the next instance. I played City of for years and it was always one I came back to. Less and less over the years as NC caved and "Smoothed the leveling curve", "Made the game more solo friendly", and finally "Added incarnate trials, and the gear grind they brought". I still think back to those days and long to run a lowbie through the sewers, take part in a PUG Hamidon raid, or do any of the Task Forces. SImply put I long for group interaction, not chat, or zerged events, but real group play.
I see now I have begun to ramble. Meh.
I don't cry or despair, I move on. Now I paint miniatures and roll REAL dice. I find it brings a much larger sence of accomplishment.
I will try the new ones as they come out I always enjoy the 1st month or so when everyone is working together to figure things out and explore new things. Mabye one of these coming out will get me to play longer than a few months. I am looking for a game that will keep me entertained for years not months.
I still give em a chance just havnt found anything of interest for awhile now. Mabye games are getting easier, I like to think Im getting smarter. One day I will be the smarterest and I will just create my own game.
Skinner boxes are addicting, finely sculpted games, books, movies, songs, etc are compelling, learn the difference gents.
To re-quote Theocritus from post #29 in this thread,
" People always think great games are coming and when these great games finally launch we learn they aren't so great......"
I'll be very surprised if even 2 or 3 of the titles you mentioned don't end up following the traditional launch and tank model that most other titles in the past 6 years or so have gone. (outside of WOW, EVE and a handful of others)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Awful to you. Modern MMOs are much better games than the old ones, to me. It is just a matter of preferences.
And no, no one is asking you to alter your taste. However, it is also fair game to point out that your taste is out of step with the modern times, and no devs have any obligations to make games that you like.
Of those mentioned Repop will be interesting to see and Neverwinter online mainly because the former promises allot while the latter is the best iteration I can think of of the WoW model game.
So the debate is.. "fast food players vs. cook a meal at home players"?
Old school players grew up using the entire kitchen to make a meal, whereas the new skool players loving fast food or anything that can be microwaved in seconds.. I guess it is all preferences.. But times are changing, I see it in the schools each year.. The size of marching bands are dwindling with each class, and how many people actually take part in after school programs like thespians? Even the all mighty sports interest havce slowed down a bit.. Less and less people are taking part in offline activities.. Golf leagues are suffering, Bowling leagues have suffered tremendously.. The younger generation has little time for entertainment that takes months or years to pay off..
From where I sit, this isn't a MMORPG problem, but a cultural one as well.. Even the simple enjoyment of reading a book for leisure is declining, and statitistic show it having an important impact on society.. Old school has it's place in the world, that much is sure..
I agree with the OP.
Nothing annoys me more than people saying WoW is similar to EQ. They are very different games. The thing I most enjoyed about MMO's was the social aspect of needing other players to do things. And by needing I do not mean I cannot do anything alone but I do mean I cannot make it to max level without ever needing another player. Or at the very least it should not be much more efficient to solo to max level than it is to play as a group... by all classes which now for some reason can do every single task.
All classes should not be tanks, should not have 2-10 crowd control abilities, should not be DPS, healers, utility. I should not be able to have a group with 3 paladins where 1 is tanking, 1 is healing, and 1 is dpsing, and then every single one has their own special buff. If there are classes they need to be well defined and not changeable. Hybrids work but you cannot have various roles like this. You need to be able to say this class will tank, this class will heal, this class will dps, and this class will be our CC. Maybe you can supplement but not every class should be able to fill any role and do it just as well as all the others.
WoW to me always sucked and I always blame it for the downfall of MMO. I blame the cartoon graphics brining in the younger kids who now seek clones of WoW which are not challenging, they are simply repetitive and not fun.
I don't think the genre is dead, but it certainly has changed into something bad compared to how it used to be. Overall, I agree with most of what you said. I miss gaming before the WoW revolution hit the genre.
Yep o.p., the genre is very much dead.
Yes exactly. Agreed, the MMORPG genre is actually shrinking.
I hadn't considered this but I like the idea. In 8,000 hours of EQ, I rarely quested.
Games are costly today (and a dissapointment to their shareholders) because companies are not spending their money wisely. Voiceovers FTL. Great MMOs require technology, ability, vision, and leadership. We have plenty of the first two and almost none of the last two.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
So, to summarize:
WoW is the Anti-Christ of MMOs...