I would want to second the though of allowing the Founders have direct testing of both CD and without CD and gather the data before CSE makes a final call on the matter. I want what is best for CU, and CD is dicey if it's not done perfectly for that given game as WAR has demonstrated.
That.
And talking about it in the forum backers rather than here. As we will know more about the game, and the engine capacity to avoid lags. We currently can't use any argument "it will be a lagfest", because we don't know yet if the engine will be able to handle it.
It's pointless to discuss it as long as we don't know that. We may reach a compromise, but it'll probably be obsolete once we know more.
I would want to second the though of allowing the Founders have direct testing of both CD and without CD and gather the data before CSE makes a final call on the matter. I want what is best for CU, and CD is dicey if it's not done perfectly for that given game as WAR has demonstrated.
That.
And talking about it in the forum backers rather than here. As we will know more about the game, and the engine capacity to avoid lags. We currently can't use any argument "it will be a lagfest", because we don't know yet if the engine will be able to handle it.
It's pointless to discuss it as long as we don't know that. We may reach a compromise, but it'll probably be obsolete once we know more.
Sure there is.......what would be pointless is to spend time determining if it contributes to lag.....IF it's known that the gameplay/experience is better off without it. Personally the stalemate Between forces brought on with CD is enough for me to pass on even testing it.....for gameplay and how it affects system performance
I think CD should be in. It allows positioning and things to matter, people shouldn't be able to walk through "tank walls" and make a b-line for hte caster/healers and squishies.
I also think for CD it can add to the game, provide both counters and anti-counters and have skills that play with this aspect of the game. Not absurd "over the top" knockbacks and things like you could have in Warhammer from just one person, but more toned down ones, perhaps give a very agile-based character an ability to jump over people and such, allow mages an ability to "chain" together and form a knockback style spell (that's more powerful depending on how many mages are "Crossing the streams" so to speak (hah little ghostbusters humor there )
Allow tanks to form "shield walls" that reduce crowd control effects to try and counter such abilities (the more tanks, and the further back the line guys, IE two stacks of tanks vs one line) the greater the reduction on crowd control (so they can't just be knocked back/around).
You can have all kinds of strategies and things form around having CD if you think about it.
I think CD should be in. It allows positioning and things to matter, people shouldn't be able to walk through "tank walls" and make a b-line for hte caster/healers and squishies.
I also think for CD it can add to the game, provide both counters and anti-counters and have skills that play with this aspect of the game. Not absurd "over the top" knockbacks and things like you could have in Warhammer from just one person, but more toned down ones, perhaps give a very agile-based character an ability to jump over people and such, allow mages an ability to "chain" together and form a knockback style spell (that's more powerful depending on how many mages are "Crossing the streams" so to speak (hah little ghostbusters humor there )
Allow tanks to form "shield walls" that reduce crowd control effects to try and counter such abilities (the more tanks, and the further back the line guys, IE two stacks of tanks vs one line) the greater the reduction on crowd control (so they can't just be knocked back/around).
You can have all kinds of strategies and things form around having CD if you think about it.
You also can stun, grapple, mezz, root, snare those going after casters
I think CD should be in. It allows positioning and things to matter, people shouldn't be able to walk through "tank walls" and make a b-line for hte caster/healers and squishies.
I also think for CD it can add to the game, provide both counters and anti-counters and have skills that play with this aspect of the game. Not absurd "over the top" knockbacks and things like you could have in Warhammer from just one person, but more toned down ones, perhaps give a very agile-based character an ability to jump over people and such, allow mages an ability to "chain" together and form a knockback style spell (that's more powerful depending on how many mages are "Crossing the streams" so to speak (hah little ghostbusters humor there )
Allow tanks to form "shield walls" that reduce crowd control effects to try and counter such abilities (the more tanks, and the further back the line guys, IE two stacks of tanks vs one line) the greater the reduction on crowd control (so they can't just be knocked back/around).
You can have all kinds of strategies and things form around having CD if you think about it.
I would like an explaination how it allows positioning to matter more than without CD? All it means is you position behind your wall and you're safe to do what you want without consequence. Without CD you will prefer to stand on walls than courtyard to avoid groups bum rushing you...
There's plenty of evidence that will contradict every single thing you said, but i've said it 100 times so you can read the whole thread to find out.
I think CD should be in. It allows positioning and things to matter, people shouldn't be able to walk through "tank walls" and make a b-line for hte caster/healers and squishies.
I also think for CD it can add to the game, provide both counters and anti-counters and have skills that play with this aspect of the game. Not absurd "over the top" knockbacks and things like you could have in Warhammer from just one person, but more toned down ones, perhaps give a very agile-based character an ability to jump over people and such, allow mages an ability to "chain" together and form a knockback style spell (that's more powerful depending on how many mages are "Crossing the streams" so to speak (hah little ghostbusters humor there )
Allow tanks to form "shield walls" that reduce crowd control effects to try and counter such abilities (the more tanks, and the further back the line guys, IE two stacks of tanks vs one line) the greater the reduction on crowd control (so they can't just be knocked back/around).
You can have all kinds of strategies and things form around having CD if you think about it.
I would like an explaination how it allows positioning to matter more than without CD? All it means is you position behind your wall and you're safe to do what you want without consequence. Without CD you will prefer to stand on walls than courtyard to avoid groups bum rushing you...
There's plenty of evidence that will contradict every single thing you said, but i've said it 100 times so you can read the whole thread to find out.
How does it matter more? Did you even read what I said?
Safe to position behind your wall and do whatever without consequence?
A. Who's to say MAGEs wouldn't need line of sight to use certain spells, etc? So standing behind the wall might not allow them to use their full potential of spells, BUT it might allow them breathing room if they are almost dead/being attacked and a tank wall steps up and they get behind the tanks.
B. Archers for example, could use Volley shots (firing over the tanks) into enemy troops, this is a VALID tactic imo, and strategies can be built around this. Flanking moves, etc.
Having 0 cd allow spoeple to blow right past any kind of tank or troop movement, completely ignores a full history of military tactics BUILT upon protecting things like flanks, vunerable units, countering them, etc.
When you have CD it allows more real world tactics to be applied and built upon, if the system is designed as such.
As I said, you have to allow them to work with CD to make it meaningful, allow ways for people to actually form lines for combat/sticking together to form battle lines, allow mean sto break these lines, allow counters to said moves and everything.
Classes can all play into such roles, as I mentioned with mages that can join their power together to try and break lines with spells, archers that can volley fire over their own troops (not needing line of sight to fire), allow nible agile characters abilities to try and leap/jump over a line (can't be too deep a line though).
The reason a lot of CD based systems fail in many ways is because there aren't a lot of mechanics in combat built around supporting it, allowing people to use the CD in meaningful ways like you would if in real life you were fighting back in tihose days with swords/archers, etc.
There are so mayn military tactics that get thrown out the window when you remove cd.
There's quite a heated debate going on over at the CU subreddit over whether CD should be in the game.
I personally feel that it's all but required, if not mandatory to have in a game that involves defending positions and protecting your support classes and seige. I feel that choke points are an essential strategic part of the game and not having CD would make such a thing meaningless.
The arguments against CD are complaints about getting "trapped" or having a handful of warriors hold off a horde of players. Additional concern was being blocked from joining in on a fight becuase there were too many players. Another concern was about possible game performance issues CD might cause.
So, what do the nice folks of mmorpg.com think about collision detection in the Camelot Unchained Project?
You got away with not having it in a sense...and just "in a sense," in Dark Age of Camelot, with 9 second stuns from shield slams. That nearly equalled a real shield wall like the Greeks, Romans, or eventually the Norse (Vikings), would have put up in a battlefield.
That being said - collision detection is huge - and even though I hate to even use the title of "Warhammer" here (ugh), the collision detection in that title was quite neat when you had Orcs holding a charge off at a keep door....
I would dare say, therefore, that you cannot have truly serious pvp without being able to utilize tactics...so you need collision detection in CU.
I really think having collision in the game would be a huge boost for PvP. It lets people use realistic tactics like shield walls, formations, and chokepoints instead of just mass swarming on top of each other.
In my mind the only potential downside would be if it caused lag. If they really find it impossible to implement without lag, then sure thats a problem. But with CSE developing their own engine from the ground up without a huge focus of unnecesarily fancy graphics I think they have the best chance of doing it right.
For anyone who thinks teammates blocking doorways to grief is a problem, there are tons of ridiculously easy solutions for that. AoC just let you walk through people while crouching which made you move really slow and take extra damage so you couldnt exploit it in combat.
When real world tactics involve people throwing fireballs at people you can use that ad a valid reason to implement it into a game.
In response to the idea that casters can't attack through tanks .... Have you ever played an mmo? Can you comprehend the massive problems with line if sight frustration the player base will encounter? Just because words on paper make sense DOES NOT mean they will make a game more fun
Making keep sieges linear (in that they are done the same way every time ) gets boring fast as much as I would enjoy playing a caster and spamming on tanks all day or playing a melee who is utterly pointless to perform any kind of offense or a tank who just stands there laughing at people who can't walk through I would rather not.
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek When real world tactics involve people throwing fireballs at people you can use that ad a valid reason to implement it into a game.
In response to the idea that casters can't attack through tanks .... Have you ever played an mmo? Can you comprehend the massive problems with line if sight frustration the player base will encounter? Just because words on paper make sense DOES NOT mean they will make a game more fun
Making keep sieges linear (in that they are done the same way every time ) gets boring fast as much as I would enjoy playing a caster and spamming on tanks all day or playing a melee who is utterly pointless to perform any kind of offense or a tank who just stands there laughing at people who can't walk through I would rather not.
Pitch covered ballista bolts are pretty similar to fireballs... I dont see how magic invalidates strategy based group combat.
Collision doesnt have to block line of sight either. Projectiles should certainly be able to fire over someone and hit someone behind them. Ranged attacks dont have to go in a straight line.
I also dont see how collision makes battles linear. People collide with each other in real life. How many historical battles happened in the exact same ways? People adapt to strategies and create new ones. If your enemy only ever advances slowly in a straight line, stand back and shoot them apart with seige weaponry. Or send out skrimishers to harrass them and break the line. Or flank them. Or set up traps that let you hide and jump up in the midst of them (why not with all the talk about crafting in combat?).
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek When real world tactics involve people throwing fireballs at people you can use that ad a valid reason to implement it into a game.
In response to the idea that casters can't attack through tanks .... Have you ever played an mmo? Can you comprehend the massive problems with line if sight frustration the player base will encounter? Just because words on paper make sense DOES NOT mean they will make a game more fun
Making keep sieges linear (in that they are done the same way every time ) gets boring fast as much as I would enjoy playing a caster and spamming on tanks all day or playing a melee who is utterly pointless to perform any kind of offense or a tank who just stands there laughing at people who can't walk through I would rather not.
Have you ever played an mmo? Because line of sight and attacking is VERY much a part of ones even without CD in them. Going around a corner, behind a tree and your attack gets cancelled because you "lost line of sight" is something that happens in many current mmo's.
Also the point of using real world tactics is that real world tactics are a part of strategy, buitl upon logical things that people can THINK about and use.
Yes the game has fireballs,t hat doens't mean you can't have "realistic" tactics that worked in real life when you had people fighting in huge armies with swords/archers, etc.
How on earth would having CD lead to sieges being linear? I do not get this at ALL. That's like saying "In real life with CD all sieges werethe same!" that's about as far from the truth as you can get and I can't even see how you'd draw that conclusion.
Tanks aren't "inivunerable" and it doesn't mean they can't be killed or die, as you seem to make it seem. Also if you didn't quite grasp the part where I talk about having COUnterS to cd-based formations and things.
MJ specified he would rather increase the health and mana pool and slow down regeneration so that once a group end a fight they can't get right back in another a few minutes later.
It means there will be next to no regeneration while in combat, and only a little out of combat. In other words, you can assist on a tank from afar with debuff and damages to drain the power of the healers, thus reducing the wall tank to a second door. It would solve the problem of the unbreakable line, while still allowing other tactics.
Keep also in mind than real world tactics involved more than a few hundred people, and sometime even more than a few thousand. Besides, there was no such thing as heals and AoE damage spells. Sure a catapult could do some area damage, but the firing speed wasn't even close to a mage casting. Furthermore, the soldiers were punished if they were to break the rank, whereas the players will just pull back if they are dieing, unless they trained to keep the line up as a real soldier.
Add to that the possibility of instant and ranged comminucation and speed buffs, and the dinamic of the battles are far from being medieval like and much closer to modern warfare.
First I was referring to the comment someone suggested that players should become LoS objects which is insanity for large battles imo provides nothing but frustration as targets are going in and out of Los every second, can't you picture that? Lol horrible idee As to the linear combat, I made a long post about it somewhere I think in "any daoc players holding back" read it there if you wish Simply though cd will make keep attack an defense play out the same way every time Just beating against tank walls until one wins That will get old fast and it will turn into war where all they do is keep trading because its not fun to attack a keep where players are defending
All this talk trying to compare a game to real life is too much for me Was real life medieval combat fun? Lol It's a game ... It doesn't have to be real life ... It has to have fun, engaging, original combat
CD is an absolute must. No CD could be a dealbreaker. All the complaints or arguments against it are pretty much complaints about how it was implemented in WAR. Implementation is a separate issue from whether the mechanic is essential to this kind of take or hold RvR game.
I get that some people are nostalgic for DAoC, but really? Some of us are nostalgic for the time we spent in UO too...should we insist that CU must have an isometric view?
It would be cool though, after a gate is breached, all the bodies pushing through the gate, instead of like in DAoC where people just ran willy nilly once a gate or wall was breached XD
Edit: If there are trolls, we'll be the masters of gate blocking
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek First I was referring to the comment someone suggested that players should become LoS objects which is insanity for large battles imo provides nothing but frustration as targets are going in and out of Los every second, can't you picture that? Lol horrible idee As to the linear combat, I made a long post about it somewhere I think in "any daoc players holding back" read it there if you wish Simply though cd will make keep attack an defense play out the same way every time Just beating against tank walls until one wins That will get old fast and it will turn into war where all they do is keep trading because its not fun to attack a keep where players are defending
Please quote when you are answering to somebody, i thought you were talking to me at first, especially since the post before mine was posted almost 12 hours earlier...
And when somebody go to see your profile it's useful to not have to look at the discussion to grasp the different arguments, but that's another mater.
About the LoS, i don't see how it would be different from using the crenels or windows, apart from the fact the tank can be the target for an AoE. If you don't do the the sight blocking area too large it wouldn't allow 1 player to hide another 2 or 3 behind him.
I agree than just forcefully breaking the line would be boring, but we can find out other ways to allow players to break it.
My biggest worry is the other ways to get around the wall is mechanics like knockbacks and pulls which are terribly easy to troll people with one click no skill ability Ill be severely disappointed if they have leaps ports knockbacks and pulls
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek Sorry wont let me quote on my phone
My biggest worry is the other ways to get around the wall is mechanics like knockbacks and pulls which are terribly easy to troll people with one click no skill ability Ill be severely disappointed if they have leaps ports knockbacks and pulls
Agree, they have no place in this game.......even worse than CD
It would be cool though, after a gate is breached, all the bodies pushing through the gate, instead of like in DAoC where people just ran willy nilly once a gate or wall was breached XD
Edit: If there are trolls, we'll be the masters of gate blocking
Edit 2: and bridge blocking of course too XD
As someone already brought it up, Age of Conan got around this without making it that explotive.
You can allow people of the same realm to go through their team mates by crouching, where they are also more vunerable (higher dmg done to them an dslower) this cuts down on the exploit possibilites.
It would be cool though, after a gate is breached, all the bodies pushing through the gate, instead of like in DAoC where people just ran willy nilly once a gate or wall was breached XD
Edit: If there are trolls, we'll be the masters of gate blocking
Edit 2: and bridge blocking of course too XD
As someone already brought it up, Age of Conan got around this without making it that explotive.
You can allow people of the same realm to go through their team mates by crouching, where they are also more vunerable (higher dmg done to them an dslower) this cuts down on the exploit possibilites.
I am against all collision detection being in the game. Everyone should immediately fall through the world upon logging in to improve performance and so people can't grief their enemies by putting hills, walls or trees between themselves and their attackers.
Comments
That.
And talking about it in the forum backers rather than here. As we will know more about the game, and the engine capacity to avoid lags. We currently can't use any argument "it will be a lagfest", because we don't know yet if the engine will be able to handle it.
It's pointless to discuss it as long as we don't know that. We may reach a compromise, but it'll probably be obsolete once we know more.
No CD worked fine in DAOC infact it would have been a lot worse with it..
So yea this game doesn't need CD.
Ugh people.
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
Steam: Neph
Sure there is.......what would be pointless is to spend time determining if it contributes to lag.....IF it's known that the gameplay/experience is better off without it. Personally the stalemate Between forces brought on with CD is enough for me to pass on even testing it.....for gameplay and how it affects system performance
I think CD should be in. It allows positioning and things to matter, people shouldn't be able to walk through "tank walls" and make a b-line for hte caster/healers and squishies.
I also think for CD it can add to the game, provide both counters and anti-counters and have skills that play with this aspect of the game. Not absurd "over the top" knockbacks and things like you could have in Warhammer from just one person, but more toned down ones, perhaps give a very agile-based character an ability to jump over people and such, allow mages an ability to "chain" together and form a knockback style spell (that's more powerful depending on how many mages are "Crossing the streams" so to speak (hah little ghostbusters humor there
)
Allow tanks to form "shield walls" that reduce crowd control effects to try and counter such abilities (the more tanks, and the further back the line guys, IE two stacks of tanks vs one line) the greater the reduction on crowd control (so they can't just be knocked back/around).
You can have all kinds of strategies and things form around having CD if you think about it.
You also can stun, grapple, mezz, root, snare those going after casters
I would like an explaination how it allows positioning to matter more than without CD? All it means is you position behind your wall and you're safe to do what you want without consequence. Without CD you will prefer to stand on walls than courtyard to avoid groups bum rushing you...
There's plenty of evidence that will contradict every single thing you said, but i've said it 100 times so you can read the whole thread to find out.
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
How does it matter more? Did you even read what I said?
Safe to position behind your wall and do whatever without consequence?
A. Who's to say MAGEs wouldn't need line of sight to use certain spells, etc? So standing behind the wall might not allow them to use their full potential of spells, BUT it might allow them breathing room if they are almost dead/being attacked and a tank wall steps up and they get behind the tanks.
B. Archers for example, could use Volley shots (firing over the tanks) into enemy troops, this is a VALID tactic imo, and strategies can be built around this. Flanking moves, etc.
Having 0 cd allow spoeple to blow right past any kind of tank or troop movement, completely ignores a full history of military tactics BUILT upon protecting things like flanks, vunerable units, countering them, etc.
When you have CD it allows more real world tactics to be applied and built upon, if the system is designed as such.
As I said, you have to allow them to work with CD to make it meaningful, allow ways for people to actually form lines for combat/sticking together to form battle lines, allow mean sto break these lines, allow counters to said moves and everything.
Classes can all play into such roles, as I mentioned with mages that can join their power together to try and break lines with spells, archers that can volley fire over their own troops (not needing line of sight to fire), allow nible agile characters abilities to try and leap/jump over a line (can't be too deep a line though).
The reason a lot of CD based systems fail in many ways is because there aren't a lot of mechanics in combat built around supporting it, allowing people to use the CD in meaningful ways like you would if in real life you were fighting back in tihose days with swords/archers, etc.
There are so mayn military tactics that get thrown out the window when you remove cd.
You got away with not having it in a sense...and just "in a sense," in Dark Age of Camelot, with 9 second stuns from shield slams. That nearly equalled a real shield wall like the Greeks, Romans, or eventually the Norse (Vikings), would have put up in a battlefield.
That being said - collision detection is huge - and even though I hate to even use the title of "Warhammer" here (ugh), the collision detection in that title was quite neat when you had Orcs holding a charge off at a keep door....
I would dare say, therefore, that you cannot have truly serious pvp without being able to utilize tactics...so you need collision detection in CU.
I really think having collision in the game would be a huge boost for PvP. It lets people use realistic tactics like shield walls, formations, and chokepoints instead of just mass swarming on top of each other.
In my mind the only potential downside would be if it caused lag. If they really find it impossible to implement without lag, then sure thats a problem. But with CSE developing their own engine from the ground up without a huge focus of unnecesarily fancy graphics I think they have the best chance of doing it right.
For anyone who thinks teammates blocking doorways to grief is a problem, there are tons of ridiculously easy solutions for that. AoC just let you walk through people while crouching which made you move really slow and take extra damage so you couldnt exploit it in combat.
In response to the idea that casters can't attack through tanks .... Have you ever played an mmo? Can you comprehend the massive problems with line if sight frustration the player base will encounter? Just because words on paper make sense DOES NOT mean they will make a game more fun
Making keep sieges linear (in that they are done the same way every time ) gets boring fast as much as I would enjoy playing a caster and spamming on tanks all day or playing a melee who is utterly pointless to perform any kind of offense or a tank who just stands there laughing at people who can't walk through
I would rather not.
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
Pitch covered ballista bolts are pretty similar to fireballs... I dont see how magic invalidates strategy based group combat.
Collision doesnt have to block line of sight either. Projectiles should certainly be able to fire over someone and hit someone behind them. Ranged attacks dont have to go in a straight line.
I also dont see how collision makes battles linear. People collide with each other in real life. How many historical battles happened in the exact same ways? People adapt to strategies and create new ones. If your enemy only ever advances slowly in a straight line, stand back and shoot them apart with seige weaponry. Or send out skrimishers to harrass them and break the line. Or flank them. Or set up traps that let you hide and jump up in the midst of them (why not with all the talk about crafting in combat?).
Have you ever played an mmo? Because line of sight and attacking is VERY much a part of ones even without CD in them. Going around a corner, behind a tree and your attack gets cancelled because you "lost line of sight" is something that happens in many current mmo's.
Also the point of using real world tactics is that real world tactics are a part of strategy, buitl upon logical things that people can THINK about and use.
Yes the game has fireballs,t hat doens't mean you can't have "realistic" tactics that worked in real life when you had people fighting in huge armies with swords/archers, etc.
How on earth would having CD lead to sieges being linear? I do not get this at ALL. That's like saying "In real life with CD all sieges werethe same!" that's about as far from the truth as you can get and I can't even see how you'd draw that conclusion.
Tanks aren't "inivunerable" and it doesn't mean they can't be killed or die, as you seem to make it seem. Also if you didn't quite grasp the part where I talk about having COUnterS to cd-based formations and things.
I would add something about the tank wall.
MJ specified he would rather increase the health and mana pool and slow down regeneration so that once a group end a fight they can't get right back in another a few minutes later.
It means there will be next to no regeneration while in combat, and only a little out of combat. In other words, you can assist on a tank from afar with debuff and damages to drain the power of the healers, thus reducing the wall tank to a second door. It would solve the problem of the unbreakable line, while still allowing other tactics.
Keep also in mind than real world tactics involved more than a few hundred people, and sometime even more than a few thousand. Besides, there was no such thing as heals and AoE damage spells. Sure a catapult could do some area damage, but the firing speed wasn't even close to a mage casting. Furthermore, the soldiers were punished if they were to break the rank, whereas the players will just pull back if they are dieing, unless they trained to keep the line up as a real soldier.
Add to that the possibility of instant and ranged comminucation and speed buffs, and the dinamic of the battles are far from being medieval like and much closer to modern warfare.
As to the linear combat, I made a long post about it somewhere I think in "any daoc players holding back" read it there if you wish
Simply though cd will make keep attack an defense play out the same way every time
Just beating against tank walls until one wins
That will get old fast and it will turn into war where all they do is keep trading because its not fun to attack a keep where players are defending
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
Was real life medieval combat fun? Lol
It's a game ... It doesn't have to be real life ... It has to have fun, engaging, original combat
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
CD is an absolute must. No CD could be a dealbreaker. All the complaints or arguments against it are pretty much complaints about how it was implemented in WAR. Implementation is a separate issue from whether the mechanic is essential to this kind of take or hold RvR game.
I get that some people are nostalgic for DAoC, but really? Some of us are nostalgic for the time we spent in UO too...should we insist that CU must have an isometric view?
It would be cool though, after a gate is breached, all the bodies pushing through the gate, instead of like in DAoC where people just ran willy nilly once a gate or wall was breached XD
Edit: If there are trolls, we'll be the masters of gate blocking
Edit 2: and bridge blocking of course too XD
Please quote when you are answering to somebody, i thought you were talking to me at first, especially since the post before mine was posted almost 12 hours earlier...
And when somebody go to see your profile it's useful to not have to look at the discussion to grasp the different arguments, but that's another mater.
About the LoS, i don't see how it would be different from using the crenels or windows, apart from the fact the tank can be the target for an AoE. If you don't do the the sight blocking area too large it wouldn't allow 1 player to hide another 2 or 3 behind him.
I agree than just forcefully breaking the line would be boring, but we can find out other ways to allow players to break it.
My biggest worry is the other ways to get around the wall is mechanics like knockbacks and pulls which are terribly easy to troll people with one click no skill ability
Ill be severely disappointed if they have leaps ports knockbacks and pulls
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
Agree, they have no place in this game.......even worse than CD
As someone already brought it up, Age of Conan got around this without making it that explotive.
You can allow people of the same realm to go through their team mates by crouching, where they are also more vunerable (higher dmg done to them an dslower) this cuts down on the exploit possibilites.
I am against all collision detection being in the game. Everyone should immediately fall through the world upon logging in to improve performance and so people can't grief their enemies by putting hills, walls or trees between themselves and their attackers.