Cutting down and eliminating are two diff things No matter what developers do there are always people who play to troll and hack. CD just opens up more ways of doing this while results in having to design other systems and make things more complicated to handle it... Again the simplest games are quite often the most fun CD will also drastically drag down frame rates and performance especially with 200v200 battles which is counterproductive to their goals So fighting to get CD in the game so tanks can selfishly have a purpose and to make combat more like real life (because real life combat is always more fun than games...???) just seems silly to me Tanks can easily be given abilities to make them useful , like I've stated before instead of allowing cd across everyone give an ability that lasts 20-30 seconds with 5-10min cooldoownthat creates cd so that it can then be intelligently applied and more Powerful to skilled players and organized groups
Easy fix for tanks to feel satisfied right there and satisfying the false and silly argument "gives more tactics"
It would be cool though, after a gate is breached, all the bodies pushing through the gate, instead of like in DAoC where people just ran willy nilly once a gate or wall was breached XD
Edit: If there are trolls, we'll be the masters of gate blocking
Edit 2: and bridge blocking of course too XD
As someone already brought it up, Age of Conan got around this without making it that explotive.
You can allow people of the same realm to go through their team mates by crouching, where they are also more vunerable (higher dmg done to them an dslower) this cuts down on the exploit possibilites.
I think he meant a race troll, that with their huge body would block enemies, not griefers and haters^^
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek Cutting down and eliminating are two diff things No matter what developers do there are always people who play to troll and hack. CD just opens up more ways of doing this while results in having to design other systems and make things more complicated to handle it...
This just isnt true. Its a strawman and its getting really old. The only thing people come up with is: "but they can block doorways to grief teammates!".
This is so incredibly easy to avoid by just giving people a way to get around collision as long as that ability isnt useful for fighting. Something that decreases your speed and increases any damage you happen to take is just one simple way to solve the problem without effecting combat.
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek CD will also drastically drag down frame rates and performance especially with 200v200 battles which is counterproductive to their goals
This is a huge assumption. They are building their engine from scratch. We dont know what they are capable of and what they arent. If MJ comes on and says "sorry, CD is making our system lag too much", then sure, that becomes a very valid reason. Smooth play is vital.
But just saying "CD has been implemented badly before, therefore it must always be implemented badly" is just absurd.
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek So fighting to get CD in the game so tanks can selfishly have a purpose and to make combat more like real life (because real life combat is always more fun than games...???) just seems silly to me Tanks can easily be given abilities to make them useful , like I've stated before instead of allowing cd across everyone give an ability that lasts 20-30 seconds with 5-10min cooldoownthat creates cd so that it can then be intelligently applied and more Powerful to skilled players and organized groups
Easy fix for tanks to feel satisfied right there and satisfying the false and silly argument "gives more tactics"
This has nothing to do with tanks in particular. It effects everyone.
CD is about combat being more than just: "Everyone charge and run around like chickens with their heads cut off!".
You talk about combat being linear and repetitive. But CD actually makes fights less linear by adding more complexity and strategic possibilities to groups fighting each other.
They can do a lot more then block doorways to troll lol and it isn't necessarily about trolling A 5 year old playing can afk in a doorway and get heals and provide as much use as a very skilled player I don't like your idea to solve Cd but maybe there's one out there, I don't think anyone that's played a melee dps would really like CD For example to eliminate friendly trolling you have to not allow cd with allies, now imagine you're chasing some healer and he runs through two players with 1% health and you're stuck... That's so stupid lol and if people can't see these things happening you gotta start looking outside the box
As for lag, I don't think I'm exaggerating as its logically a drawback to performance But I would rather have a more graphically immersive system without cd then lowering the quality of graphics more to fit it in but again I hate CD in every game I've played so I'm okay with it out
Non cd combat is not just running around like chickens with their heads cut off?? That doesn't even make sense .. Sigh
I don't think you understand what I mean by making combat more linear because CD will not make it less linear I've stated many times and people need to realize having CD doesnt make anything more complex or strategic, it simple changes the complexity an strategies It just makes them more linear as you have less options especially in small to mid scale combat
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek They can do a lot more then block doorways to troll lol and it isn't necessarily about trolling A 5 year old playing can afk in a doorway and get heals and provide as much use as a very skilled player I don't like your idea to solve Cd but maybe there's one out there, I don't think anyone that's played a melee dps would really like CD For example to eliminate friendly trolling you have to not allow cd with allies, now imagine you're chasing some healer and he runs through two players with 1% health and you're stuck... That's so stupid lol and if people can't see these things happening you gotta start looking outside the box
I already pointed out one very simple method to prevent same realm players from blocking you with CD without actually disabling it in combat. So the statement "you have to not allow CD with allies" is just false.
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek
Non cd combat is not just running around like chickens with their heads cut off?? That doesn't even make sense .. Sigh
I don't think you understand what I mean by making combat more linear because CD will not make it less linear I've stated many times and people need to realize having CD doesnt make anything more complex or strategic, it simple changes the complexity an strategies It just makes them more linear as you have less options especially in small to mid scale combat
Lets imagine for a moment two groups fighting each other.
Without CD, the range those players are from each other matters, but not where they are relative to each other as long as they stay in range.
With CD, all of the same things matter. Nothing is removed. But now the exact positions of those players relative to each other matters as well. You are adding another variable, which adds complexity.
What options does CD remove? The option to stand inside someone else? You can still flank people by CC'ing them instead of running straight through them.
Your method is an added complexity of annoyance for a player having to conform to... I really don't think you are understanding the downsides of CD that I'm trying to explain That's fine not everyone has to agree with me or see my side of the argument
I disagree that that kind of mechanic is a positive addition to complexity and one that isn't needed to enhance gameplay and strategies in the scenario you said... Only complexity it adds is another cop out for people to hide when they or their team screwed up You are completely false in saying it didnt matter where you stand just as long as you're in range Positioning mattered in Daoc more than any game Bad position you are easily dropped by melee trains or millions of other things So again it doesn't add how you approach combat It changes it, and I believe it changes it to a more streamlined combat system that will get boring fast I pity melee dps in a game with CU unless they can 2shot things
Saying CD adds complexity and tactics to a game is just nonsense and rediculous. All it does it drag down performance, create a ton of hit box issues, lag box, and exploitation. Just for the single upside of 'I can get 5 tanks to surround my healer and create a shield wall.' Or having 3 tanks block a castle inner door to protect the Lord. The negatives of CD far outweigh the positive 'realistic' experience of it.
In no way do I want to sacrifice even an ounce of performance of fluid combat just to bring in CD. DAoC was great b/c it didn't have CD. Could you imagine doing just 50v50 and trying to get off positionals. CD is the worst for meele chars, but it is just bad all around with the problems it brings.
CD does not belong in MMO's(as of yet, tech is just not there) and if you want to see the latest game to have really terrible non fluid combat with tons of problems caused solely by CD then try out Neverwinter.
CD does not belong in MMO's(as of yet, tech is just not there) and if you want to see the latest game to have really terrible non fluid combat with tons of problems caused solely by CD then try out Neverwinter.
It is a bit of a stretch to say Neverwinter's combat problems are caused solely by collision detection; it is just a bad system, period. It feels clumsy, your character does not respond quickly between attacks, and the limited abilities makes it feel like an action RPG grinder, which it basically is and was originally designed to be.
As for the topic at hand, I will not be upset if collision detection is not in, but I would like to see it. Some people claim the negatives outweigh the positives, I see it the opposite. It is all perspective, I suppose. I am also willing to bet that tanks tend to prefer it more than others, as a general rule, and I like playing tanks - we all have biases.
I like the fact someone cannot run through me to backstab me or to get at my group. I like the fact I can block strategic points.
We will see if it makes it in or not. I am giving it at best a 25% chance given the resources it can require to track on the networking end. If they can solve that, it will make it, if it simply cannot be done, it won't.
CD does not belong in MMO's(as of yet, tech is just not there) and if you want to see the latest game to have really terrible non fluid combat with tons of problems caused solely by CD then try out Neverwinter.
It is a bit of a stretch to say Neverwinter's combat problems are caused solely by collision detection; it is just a bad system, period. It feels clumsy, your character does not respond quickly between attacks, and the limited abilities makes it feel like an action RPG grinder, which it basically is and was originally designed to be.
As for the topic at hand, I will not be upset if collision detection is not in, but I would like to see it. Some people claim the negatives outweigh the positives, I see it the opposite. It is all perspective, I suppose. I am also willing to bet that tanks tend to prefer it more than others, as a general rule, and I like playing tanks - we all have biases.
I like the fact someone cannot run through me to backstab me or to get at my group. I like the fact I can block strategic points.
We will see if it makes it in or not. I am giving it at best a 25% chance given the resources it can require to track on the networking end. If they can solve that, it will make it, if it simply cannot be done, it won't.
After DAoC I was waiting for it's replacement, went through six or seven games....some blah, some fun(CoH), though none lasting that long.....then I heard war hammer was coming out and had CD! I thought this would be fantastic, it's one of the things DAoC didn't have and I wish it did.......I was mistaken.....all it did was lead to long, boring standoffs.....2 or 3 tanks/melee wide with some behind to move in ......all they needed was couple group healers to keep them up......
After DAoC I was waiting for it's replacement, went through six or seven games....some blah, some fun(CoH), though none lasting that long.....then I heard war hammer was coming out and had CD! I thought this would be fantastic, it's one of the things DAoC didn't have and I wish it did.......I was mistaken.....all it did was lead to long, boring standoffs.....2 or 3 tanks/melee wide with some behind to move in ......all they needed was couple group healers to keep them up......
total snooze fest
And this is really the problem with this whole discussion. It really comes down to "this was implemented badly in War so its bad".
With a complex MMORPG, just changing a couple variables can completely alter the game.
CD doesnt lead to drawn out linear fights. CD along with overly tough tanks, strong group healers, and a lack of any tactical options in the game to overcome that situation leads to drawn out linear fights.
If just a few of those mechanics were tweaked a little you'd be here saying that CD led to overly fast fights instead. CD wasnt the problem, the poor implementation and balancing was.
CD does not belong in MMO's(as of yet, tech is just not there) and if you want to see the latest game to have really terrible non fluid combat with tons of problems caused solely by CD then try out Neverwinter.
It is a bit of a stretch to say Neverwinter's combat problems are caused solely by collision detection; it is just a bad system, period. It feels clumsy, your character does not respond quickly between attacks, and the limited abilities makes it feel like an action RPG grinder, which it basically is and was originally designed to be.
As for the topic at hand, I will not be upset if collision detection is not in, but I would like to see it. Some people claim the negatives outweigh the positives, I see it the opposite. It is all perspective, I suppose. I am also willing to bet that tanks tend to prefer it more than others, as a general rule, and I like playing tanks - we all have biases.
I like the fact someone cannot run through me to backstab me or to get at my group. I like the fact I can block strategic points.
We will see if it makes it in or not. I am giving it at best a 25% chance given the resources it can require to track on the networking end. If they can solve that, it will make it, if it simply cannot be done, it won't.
After DAoC I was waiting for it's replacement, went through six or seven games....some blah, some fun(CoH), though none lasting that long.....then I heard war hammer was coming out and had CD! I thought this would be fantastic, it's one of the things DAoC didn't have and I wish it did.......I was mistaken.....all it did was lead to long, boring standoffs.....2 or 3 tanks/melee wide with some behind to move in ......all they needed was couple group healers to keep them up......
total snooze fest
Luckily, it's Mark Jacobs and Andrew Meggs who are making this game and they are designing the engine from the ground up. They will make sure that collision detection doesn't cause lag and is not poorly implemented since they will be designing for these kinds of features from the get go.
These quotes taken from their foundational principles are all you really need to ponder to know CD will almost certainly be in the game:
…our players are not children and this is not an intersection crossing. Over the years many MMORPG designers, me included, have employed various devices and mechanics in order to increase our games’ subscription base. We removed points of frustration (I termed them “quit points” at Mythic)
it also resulted in the vast majority of MMORPGs becoming easier to play, simpler to master and more “hand-holding” than their earlier brethren.
Many developers/publishers were and are so afraid to let the players lose, make mistakes, suffer any inconvenience, etc., that we have created a feedback loop whereby many players expect spoon fed content that goes down real easy, shown how to do everything, directed so they can’t make serious mistakes, etc.
Based on a sampling of the sentiments on the various forums I lurk on and/or participate in, there is growing belief among players we’ve also lost some of the excitement ... that comes with making the right or wrong choice, losing a tough fight, etc.
As an independent developer of a lower-budget, lower subscription target MMORPG (using today’s inflated scale), we retain more than our fair measure of creative freedom that I wouldn’t trade for a larger budget and longer development timeline
I want the freedom to take some risks with this game without enduring sleepless nights as I worry about whether a feature (or lack thereof) will alienate too many players, anger the boss, piss off the investors, etc. I like waking up thinking “This is a really freaking cool idea let’s try it!” or “Wasn’t it cool when you were ...
We need to look at the evolution of these games and see what features made MMORPGs seem more immersive and/or challenging and dare I say it (dare, dare!), realistic, even if a minority of players complained about them in the past and might still complain about them now.
IMO, that gameplay style embodies some of the problems with many modern MMOs, death without consequence, “easy in” and “easy out” RvR, 6-year old kids’ soccer match, etc. RvR combat must be fun, challenging, exciting and losing must hurt a bit or it means nothing.
This may just be my opinon, but these are not the quotes of a group of developers who will embrace or allow easy-mode, tactics-free, zerg for zerg, bunny-hopping, fig-8-ing, AoE-spamming RvR battles. Which is exactly what we would have with no collision detection. Time to face the music...your skilless, button-mashing, spam-AoE PvP days are over. Time to cowboy up or find a different game.
After DAoC I was waiting for it's replacement, went through six or seven games....some blah, some fun(CoH), though none lasting that long.....then I heard war hammer was coming out and had CD! I thought this would be fantastic, it's one of the things DAoC didn't have and I wish it did.......I was mistaken.....all it did was lead to long, boring standoffs.....2 or 3 tanks/melee wide with some behind to move in ......all they needed was couple group healers to keep them up......
total snooze fest
And this is really the problem with this whole discussion. It really comes down to "this was implemented badly in War so its bad".
With a complex MMORPG, just changing a couple variables can completely alter the game.
CD doesnt lead to drawn out linear fights. CD along with overly tough tanks, strong group healers, and a lack of any tactical options in the game to overcome that situation leads to drawn out linear fights.
If just a few of those mechanics were tweaked a little you'd be here saying that CD led to overly fast fights instead. CD wasnt the problem, the poor implementation and balancing was.
Which can lead to another problem....tanks and healers not being able to do their thing open field combat.....
personally CC implemented well more than replaces CD
The funny thing is for the fans of CD strategy to work it assumes that tanks make a line in a choke point and healer stand at their max range away from damage. But if along with CD was added say a tallet line for range DPS increased range? Say a max of 2.5x so that line of healers way over there is now in range of a range DPS attack or CC. More likely they will be in range of siege weapons.
The “Fun” of CD is in “exploiting” it again an enemy that has no counter to it. If and when a counter exists, the “Fun” goes away.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
The funny thing is for the fans of CD strategy to work it assumes that tanks make a line in a choke point and healer stand at their max range away from damage. But if along with CD was added say a tallet line for range DPS increased range? Say a max of 2.5x so that line of healers way over there is now in range of a range DPS attack or CC. More likely they will be in range of siege weapons.
The “Fun” of CD is in “exploiting” it again an enemy that has no counter to it. If and when a counter exists, the “Fun” goes away.
A much smaller force will eventually be overwhelmed as the healers will not be able to heal through all the damage even if out of the range of any ranged DPS. And the healers should be in range of siege weapons. This adds to the fun in contrast to what you say. The besieged will need to send out stealth teams to destroy or disable the siege weaponry or maybe already have those teams lurking near the battlefield for just that purpose. Counter, re-counter, re-recounter, and so on. The more possibilities you take away the more skill-less and vanilla you make sieging.
The funny thing is for the fans of CD strategy to work it assumes that tanks make a line in a choke point and healer stand at their max range away from damage. But if along with CD was added say a tallet line for range DPS increased range? Say a max of 2.5x so that line of healers way over there is now in range of a range DPS attack or CC. More likely they will be in range of siege weapons.
The “Fun” of CD is in “exploiting” it again an enemy that has no counter to it. If and when a counter exists, the “Fun” goes away.
Shield lines are only the most obvious use of CD in combat.
Honestly your post proves the entire argument for CD. You thought. You came up with an idea that countered another strategy. Now those people are going to have to alter their strategy to counter your barrage of siege weapons.
If the CD wasnt there you would have just charged in randomly trying to hit as many people at once in a huge pile.
Maybe they will try CD maybe they won't If it was guaranteed then They would have stated it already, the reason they havnt is likely because they are "waiting until after the kickstarter to end" in order to lose backers because there are a lot of people on both sides that likely wont pay 250$ if their choice isn't in Maybe I'm wrong but honestly it's too early to tell if their engine and world graphics can sustain it and I'm sure they don't want to claim anything yet as they don't know either
One thing about CD that I believe goes against his principles is the "no hand holding" well cd only makes it easier for healers to escape and ranged to avoid melee IMO that's hand holding at its premium
They can add a lot to make it more "realistic" because a lot of people are crying for it, but I don't think they need player to player CD to make that happen and truly believe it will e a mistake, too many players say they want things and then when they get it it's not what they imagine
Of course tanks and bad healers want this cuz it makes things easier for them I don't think I will ever understand the desire for someone want to play a tank that just soaks damage in pvp It's really easy to make a tank viable to perform defensive acts with "skill" abilities instead of just standing there I don't think there's a better exampl of how tanks were done right then the Hero class in daoc but clearly I'm biased
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek Maybe they will try CD maybe they won't If it was guaranteed then They would have stated it already, the reason they havnt is likely because they are "waiting until after the kickstarter to end" in order to lose backers because there are a lot of people on both sides that likely wont pay 250$ if their choice isn't in Maybe I'm wrong but honestly it's too early to tell if their engine and world graphics can sustain it and I'm sure they don't want to claim anything yet as they don't know either
One thing about CD that I believe goes against his principles is the "no hand holding" well cd only makes it easier for healers to escape and ranged to avoid melee IMO that's hand holding at its premium
They can add a lot to make it more "realistic" because a lot of people are crying for it, but I don't think they need player to player CD to make that happen and truly believe it will e a mistake, too many players say they want things and then when they get it it's not what they imagine
Of course tanks and bad healers want this cuz it makes things easier for them I don't think I will ever understand the desire for someone want to play a tank that just soaks damage in pvp It's really easy to make a tank viable to perform defensive acts with "skill" abilities instead of just standing there I don't think there's a better exampl of how tanks were done right then the Hero class in daoc but clearly I'm biased
Agree with most everything...especially the part you won't hear if they want it or not....same reason you probably won't hear how stealth will be handled until after KS.
i had great fun playing a warrior in DAOC, I was shocked how fun it was.
he had plenty of abilities/skills to adequately keep enemies at bay.
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek Maybe they will try CD maybe they won't If it was guaranteed then They would have stated it already, the reason they havnt is likely because they are "waiting until after the kickstarter to end" in order to lose backers because there are a lot of people on both sides that likely wont pay 250$ if their choice isn't in Maybe I'm wrong but honestly it's too early to tell if their engine and world graphics can sustain it and I'm sure they don't want to claim anything yet as they don't know either
One thing about CD that I believe goes against his principles is the "no hand holding" well cd only makes it easier for healers to escape and ranged to avoid melee IMO that's hand holding at its premium
They can add a lot to make it more "realistic" because a lot of people are crying for it, but I don't think they need player to player CD to make that happen and truly believe it will e a mistake, too many players say they want things and then when they get it it's not what they imagine
Of course tanks and bad healers want this cuz it makes things easier for them I don't think I will ever understand the desire for someone want to play a tank that just soaks damage in pvp It's really easy to make a tank viable to perform defensive acts with "skill" abilities instead of just standing there I don't think there's a better exampl of how tanks were done right then the Hero class in daoc but clearly I'm biased
Really the only argument against CD that isn't nonsense is the lag or technical implementation argument. And that isn't an argument against CD it's an argument against lag or other issues due to shitty implementation. And that argument falls to pieces if an engine is built from the ground up with collision detection in mind.
You are making arguments that don't make any sense. Healers and ranged are having their hands held with CD in? I...no...it doesn't even make any sense. You might as well have said that CD is hand-holding because your mom's favorite color is pink.
I can only think of two reasons why someone would argue against collision detection in a game that was designed for it:
1. They have such DAoC blinders on for that 12 year old game that they can't even be rational about the limitations of the time that it was developed and simply blindy insist everything must be as DAoC had it without even thinking about it specifically.
or
2. They know full well that CD is everything that the pro-CDers argue it is but they have an ulterior motive for wanting it kept out and for dumbing down of RvR (like, for example, they play melee-DPS or AoE DPS and can't do the blind-zerg, circle-jerk, button mash easy-kill spam with CD in the game).
I still can't believe this is even contentious. Stealth, yes. No Pve, sure. But this?
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek Maybe they will try CD maybe they won't If it was guaranteed then They would have stated it already, the reason they havnt is likely because they are "waiting until after the kickstarter to end" in order to lose backers because there are a lot of people on both sides that likely wont pay 250$ if their choice isn't in Maybe I'm wrong but honestly it's too early to tell if their engine and world graphics can sustain it and I'm sure they don't want to claim anything yet as they don't know either
One thing about CD that I believe goes against his principles is the "no hand holding" well cd only makes it easier for healers to escape and ranged to avoid melee IMO that's hand holding at its premium
They can add a lot to make it more "realistic" because a lot of people are crying for it, but I don't think they need player to player CD to make that happen and truly believe it will e a mistake, too many players say they want things and then when they get it it's not what they imagine
Of course tanks and bad healers want this cuz it makes things easier for them I don't think I will ever understand the desire for someone want to play a tank that just soaks damage in pvp It's really easy to make a tank viable to perform defensive acts with "skill" abilities instead of just standing there I don't think there's a better exampl of how tanks were done right then the Hero class in daoc but clearly I'm biased
Really the only argument against CD that isn't nonsense is the lag or technical implementation argument. And that isn't an argument against CD it's an argument against lag or other issues due to shitty implementation. And that argument falls to pieces if an engine is built from the ground up with collision detection in mind.
You are making arguments that don't make any sense. Healers and ranged are having their hands held with CD in? I...no...it doesn't even make any sense. You might as well have said that CD is hand-holding because your mom's favorite color is pink.
I can only think of two reasons why someone would argue against collision detection in a game that was designed for it:
1. They have such DAoC blinders on for that 12 year old game that they can't even be rational about the limitations of the time that it was developed and simply blindy insist everything must be as DAoC had it without even thinking about it specifically.
or
2. They know full well that CD is everything that the pro-CDers argue it is but they have an ulterior motive for wanting it kept out and for dumbing down of RvR (like, for example, they play melee-DPS or AoE DPS and can't do the blind-zerg, circle-jerk, button mash easy-kill spam with CD in the game).
I still can't believe this is even contentious. Stealth, yes. No Pve, sure. But this?
Sorry box......no CD and no logging on in TD when it flips........;)
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek .... One thing about CD that I believe goes against his principles is the "no hand holding" well cd only makes it easier for healers to escape and ranged to avoid melee IMO that's hand holding at its premium
They can add a lot to make it more "realistic" because a lot of people are crying for it, but I don't think they need player to player CD to make that happen and truly believe it will e a mistake, too many players say they want things and then when they get it it's not what they imagine
Of course tanks and bad healers want this cuz it makes things easier for them I don't think I will ever understand the desire for someone want to play a tank that just soaks damage in pvp It's really easy to make a tank viable to perform defensive acts with "skill" abilities instead of just standing there I don't think there's a better exampl of how tanks were done right then the Hero class in daoc but clearly I'm biased
This argument is such absurd nonsense. What does this have to do with tanks or healers specifically?
Personally I'll probably be playing DPS, maybe a crafter if they make it interesting enough in RvR. I want CD because I want tactics to actually matter when Im leading an organized group. I dont want to give the command in Vent: "Run forward and start mashing AOE's!!!!"
There you go again assuming cd is the only thing that makes tactics matter lol You guys make less sense then my 2 year old cousin...
If you think it's harder to play a healer or ranged a system with CD then without you sir are the one not making sense... It basically gives you a portable tree to run circles around avoiding melee damage The whole argument positioning matters more with CD makes my head explode, not nearly as accountable for where you're standing Either way clearly we won't agree so don't care to much to repeat the same things to you that clearly you are reading with your WAR goggles on
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek There you go again assuming cd is the only thing that makes tactics matter lol You guys make less sense then my 2 year old cousin...
If you think it's harder to play a healer or ranged a system with CD then without you sir are the one not making sense... It basically gives you a portable tree to run circles around avoiding melee damage The whole argument positioning matters more with CD makes my head explode, not nearly as accountable for where you're standing Either way clearly we won't agree so don't care to much to repeat the same things to you that clearly you are reading with your WAR goggles on
You seem to be under the impression that Im talking about individual tactics. You keep focusing on whether something is easier or harder for a given class, which is all balanced out by their abilities and mechanics, not CD itself.
Im talking about group tactics. Having group coordination matter.
You targetting the guy youre supposed to kill and running through the middle of the battle to get into position isnt group tactics. Having to coordinate with your group to set up a situation where you can actually get into that position is.
CD is a major decision that needs to be made before you talk abilities, I'm not focusing on anything my comments there were in reference to a particular comment
Your example does not prove anything I've played lots of games and they ALL have had group tactics and coordination to come to a success Some more than others and daoc had the most surprisingly no CD?? Weird
Comments
No matter what developers do there are always people who play to troll and hack.
CD just opens up more ways of doing this while results in having to design other systems and make things more complicated to handle it... Again the simplest games are quite often the most fun
CD will also drastically drag down frame rates and performance especially with 200v200 battles which is counterproductive to their goals
So fighting to get CD in the game so tanks can selfishly have a purpose and to make combat more like real life (because real life combat is always more fun than games...???) just seems silly to me
Tanks can easily be given abilities to make them useful , like I've stated before instead of allowing cd across everyone give an ability that lasts 20-30 seconds with 5-10min cooldoownthat creates cd so that it can then be intelligently applied and more Powerful to skilled players and organized groups
Easy fix for tanks to feel satisfied right there and satisfying the false and silly argument "gives more tactics"
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
I think he meant a race troll, that with their huge body would block enemies, not griefers and haters^^
This just isnt true. Its a strawman and its getting really old. The only thing people come up with is: "but they can block doorways to grief teammates!".
This is so incredibly easy to avoid by just giving people a way to get around collision as long as that ability isnt useful for fighting. Something that decreases your speed and increases any damage you happen to take is just one simple way to solve the problem without effecting combat.
This is a huge assumption. They are building their engine from scratch. We dont know what they are capable of and what they arent. If MJ comes on and says "sorry, CD is making our system lag too much", then sure, that becomes a very valid reason. Smooth play is vital.
But just saying "CD has been implemented badly before, therefore it must always be implemented badly" is just absurd.
This has nothing to do with tanks in particular. It effects everyone.
CD is about combat being more than just: "Everyone charge and run around like chickens with their heads cut off!".
You talk about combat being linear and repetitive. But CD actually makes fights less linear by adding more complexity and strategic possibilities to groups fighting each other.
A 5 year old playing can afk in a doorway and get heals and provide as much use as a very skilled player
I don't like your idea to solve Cd but maybe there's one out there, I don't think anyone that's played a melee dps would really like CD
For example to eliminate friendly trolling you have to not allow cd with allies, now imagine you're chasing some healer and he runs through two players with 1% health and you're stuck... That's so stupid lol and if people can't see these things happening you gotta start looking outside the box
As for lag, I don't think I'm exaggerating as its logically a drawback to performance
But I would rather have a more graphically immersive system without cd then lowering the quality of graphics more to fit it in but again I hate CD in every game I've played so I'm okay with it out
Non cd combat is not just running around like chickens with their heads cut off?? That doesn't even make sense .. Sigh
I don't think you understand what I mean by making combat more linear because CD will not make it less linear
I've stated many times and people need to realize having CD doesnt make anything more complex or strategic, it simple changes the complexity an strategies
It just makes them more linear as you have less options especially in small to mid scale combat
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
I already pointed out one very simple method to prevent same realm players from blocking you with CD without actually disabling it in combat. So the statement "you have to not allow CD with allies" is just false.
Lets imagine for a moment two groups fighting each other.
Without CD, the range those players are from each other matters, but not where they are relative to each other as long as they stay in range.
With CD, all of the same things matter. Nothing is removed. But now the exact positions of those players relative to each other matters as well. You are adding another variable, which adds complexity.
What options does CD remove? The option to stand inside someone else? You can still flank people by CC'ing them instead of running straight through them.
I really don't think you are understanding the downsides of CD that I'm trying to explain
That's fine not everyone has to agree with me or see my side of the argument
I disagree that that kind of mechanic is a positive addition to complexity and one that isn't needed to enhance gameplay and strategies in the scenario you said... Only complexity it adds is another cop out for people to hide when they or their team screwed up
You are completely false in saying it didnt matter where you stand just as long as you're in range
Positioning mattered in Daoc more than any game
Bad position you are easily dropped by melee trains or millions of other things
So again it doesn't add how you approach combat
It changes it, and I believe it changes it to a more streamlined combat system that will get boring fast
I pity melee dps in a game with CU unless they can 2shot things
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
Saying CD adds complexity and tactics to a game is just nonsense and rediculous. All it does it drag down performance, create a ton of hit box issues, lag box, and exploitation. Just for the single upside of 'I can get 5 tanks to surround my healer and create a shield wall.' Or having 3 tanks block a castle inner door to protect the Lord. The negatives of CD far outweigh the positive 'realistic' experience of it.
In no way do I want to sacrifice even an ounce of performance of fluid combat just to bring in CD. DAoC was great b/c it didn't have CD. Could you imagine doing just 50v50 and trying to get off positionals. CD is the worst for meele chars, but it is just bad all around with the problems it brings.
CD does not belong in MMO's(as of yet, tech is just not there) and if you want to see the latest game to have really terrible non fluid combat with tons of problems caused solely by CD then try out Neverwinter.
It is a bit of a stretch to say Neverwinter's combat problems are caused solely by collision detection; it is just a bad system, period. It feels clumsy, your character does not respond quickly between attacks, and the limited abilities makes it feel like an action RPG grinder, which it basically is and was originally designed to be.
As for the topic at hand, I will not be upset if collision detection is not in, but I would like to see it. Some people claim the negatives outweigh the positives, I see it the opposite. It is all perspective, I suppose. I am also willing to bet that tanks tend to prefer it more than others, as a general rule, and I like playing tanks - we all have biases.
I like the fact someone cannot run through me to backstab me or to get at my group. I like the fact I can block strategic points.
We will see if it makes it in or not. I am giving it at best a 25% chance given the resources it can require to track on the networking end. If they can solve that, it will make it, if it simply cannot be done, it won't.
After DAoC I was waiting for it's replacement, went through six or seven games....some blah, some fun(CoH), though none lasting that long.....then I heard war hammer was coming out and had CD! I thought this would be fantastic, it's one of the things DAoC didn't have and I wish it did.......I was mistaken.....all it did was lead to long, boring standoffs.....2 or 3 tanks/melee wide with some behind to move in ......all they needed was couple group healers to keep them up......
total snooze fest
And this is really the problem with this whole discussion. It really comes down to "this was implemented badly in War so its bad".
With a complex MMORPG, just changing a couple variables can completely alter the game.
CD doesnt lead to drawn out linear fights. CD along with overly tough tanks, strong group healers, and a lack of any tactical options in the game to overcome that situation leads to drawn out linear fights.
If just a few of those mechanics were tweaked a little you'd be here saying that CD led to overly fast fights instead. CD wasnt the problem, the poor implementation and balancing was.
Luckily, it's Mark Jacobs and Andrew Meggs who are making this game and they are designing the engine from the ground up. They will make sure that collision detection doesn't cause lag and is not poorly implemented since they will be designing for these kinds of features from the get go.
These quotes taken from their foundational principles are all you really need to ponder to know CD will almost certainly be in the game:
…our players are not children and this is not an intersection crossing. Over the years many MMORPG designers, me included, have employed various devices and mechanics in order to increase our games’ subscription base. We removed points of frustration (I termed them “quit points” at Mythic)
it also resulted in the vast majority of MMORPGs becoming easier to play, simpler to master and more “hand-holding” than their earlier brethren.
Many developers/publishers were and are so afraid to let the players lose, make mistakes, suffer any inconvenience, etc., that we have created a feedback loop whereby many players expect spoon fed content that goes down real easy, shown how to do everything, directed so they can’t make serious mistakes, etc.
Based on a sampling of the sentiments on the various forums I lurk on and/or participate in, there is growing belief among players we’ve also lost some of the excitement ... that comes with making the right or wrong choice, losing a tough fight, etc.
As an independent developer of a lower-budget, lower subscription target MMORPG (using today’s inflated scale), we retain more than our fair measure of creative freedom that I wouldn’t trade for a larger budget and longer development timeline
I want the freedom to take some risks with this game without enduring sleepless nights as I worry about whether a feature (or lack thereof) will alienate too many players, anger the boss, piss off the investors, etc. I like waking up thinking “This is a really freaking cool idea let’s try it!” or “Wasn’t it cool when you were ...
We need to look at the evolution of these games and see what features made MMORPGs seem more immersive and/or challenging and dare I say it (dare, dare!), realistic, even if a minority of players complained about them in the past and might still complain about them now.
IMO, that gameplay style embodies some of the problems with many modern MMOs, death without consequence, “easy in” and “easy out” RvR, 6-year old kids’ soccer match, etc. RvR combat must be fun, challenging, exciting and losing must hurt a bit or it means nothing.
This may just be my opinon, but these are not the quotes of a group of developers who will embrace or allow easy-mode, tactics-free, zerg for zerg, bunny-hopping, fig-8-ing, AoE-spamming RvR battles. Which is exactly what we would have with no collision detection. Time to face the music...your skilless, button-mashing, spam-AoE PvP days are over. Time to cowboy up or find a different game.
Which can lead to another problem....tanks and healers not being able to do their thing open field combat.....
personally CC implemented well more than replaces CD
The funny thing is for the fans of CD strategy to work it assumes that tanks make a line in a choke point and healer stand at their max range away from damage. But if along with CD was added say a tallet line for range DPS increased range? Say a max of 2.5x so that line of healers way over there is now in range of a range DPS attack or CC. More likely they will be in range of siege weapons.
The “Fun” of CD is in “exploiting” it again an enemy that has no counter to it. If and when a counter exists, the “Fun” goes away.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
A much smaller force will eventually be overwhelmed as the healers will not be able to heal through all the damage even if out of the range of any ranged DPS. And the healers should be in range of siege weapons. This adds to the fun in contrast to what you say. The besieged will need to send out stealth teams to destroy or disable the siege weaponry or maybe already have those teams lurking near the battlefield for just that purpose. Counter, re-counter, re-recounter, and so on. The more possibilities you take away the more skill-less and vanilla you make sieging.
Shield lines are only the most obvious use of CD in combat.
Honestly your post proves the entire argument for CD. You thought. You came up with an idea that countered another strategy. Now those people are going to have to alter their strategy to counter your barrage of siege weapons.
If the CD wasnt there you would have just charged in randomly trying to hit as many people at once in a huge pile.
If it was guaranteed then They would have stated it already, the reason they havnt is likely because they are "waiting until after the kickstarter to end" in order to lose backers because there are a lot of people on both sides that likely wont pay 250$ if their choice isn't in
Maybe I'm wrong but honestly it's too early to tell if their engine and world graphics can sustain it and I'm sure they don't want to claim anything yet as they don't know either
One thing about CD that I believe goes against his principles is the "no hand holding" well cd only makes it easier for healers to escape and ranged to avoid melee
IMO that's hand holding at its premium
They can add a lot to make it more "realistic" because a lot of people are crying for it, but I don't think they need player to player CD to make that happen and truly believe it will e a mistake, too many players say they want things and then when they get it it's not what they imagine
Of course tanks and bad healers want this cuz it makes things easier for them
I don't think I will ever understand the desire for someone want to play a tank that just soaks damage in pvp
It's really easy to make a tank viable to perform defensive acts with "skill" abilities instead of just standing there
I don't think there's a better exampl of how tanks were done right then the Hero class in daoc but clearly I'm biased
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
Agree with most everything...especially the part you won't hear if they want it or not....same reason you probably won't hear how stealth will be handled until after KS.
i had great fun playing a warrior in DAOC, I was shocked how fun it was.
he had plenty of abilities/skills to adequately keep enemies at bay.
Really the only argument against CD that isn't nonsense is the lag or technical implementation argument. And that isn't an argument against CD it's an argument against lag or other issues due to shitty implementation. And that argument falls to pieces if an engine is built from the ground up with collision detection in mind.
You are making arguments that don't make any sense. Healers and ranged are having their hands held with CD in? I...no...it doesn't even make any sense. You might as well have said that CD is hand-holding because your mom's favorite color is pink.
I can only think of two reasons why someone would argue against collision detection in a game that was designed for it:
1. They have such DAoC blinders on for that 12 year old game that they can't even be rational about the limitations of the time that it was developed and simply blindy insist everything must be as DAoC had it without even thinking about it specifically.
or
2. They know full well that CD is everything that the pro-CDers argue it is but they have an ulterior motive for wanting it kept out and for dumbing down of RvR (like, for example, they play melee-DPS or AoE DPS and can't do the blind-zerg, circle-jerk, button mash easy-kill spam with CD in the game).
I still can't believe this is even contentious. Stealth, yes. No Pve, sure. But this?
Sorry box......no CD and no logging on in TD when it flips........;)
This argument is such absurd nonsense. What does this have to do with tanks or healers specifically?
Personally I'll probably be playing DPS, maybe a crafter if they make it interesting enough in RvR. I want CD because I want tactics to actually matter when Im leading an organized group. I dont want to give the command in Vent: "Run forward and start mashing AOE's!!!!"
You guys make less sense then my 2 year old cousin...
If you think it's harder to play a healer or ranged a system with CD then without you sir are the one not making sense... It basically gives you a portable tree to run circles around avoiding melee damage
The whole argument positioning matters more with CD makes my head explode, not nearly as accountable for where you're standing
Either way clearly we won't agree so don't care to much to repeat the same things to you that clearly you are reading with your WAR goggles on
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
You seem to be under the impression that Im talking about individual tactics. You keep focusing on whether something is easier or harder for a given class, which is all balanced out by their abilities and mechanics, not CD itself.
Im talking about group tactics. Having group coordination matter.
You targetting the guy youre supposed to kill and running through the middle of the battle to get into position isnt group tactics. Having to coordinate with your group to set up a situation where you can actually get into that position is.
Your example does not prove anything
I've played lots of games and they ALL have had group tactics and coordination to come to a success
Some more than others and daoc had the most surprisingly no CD?? Weird
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
I mentioned what I thought re CD on CU comment section but I will say it again here.
what we need is 'on-demand' collision detection.
in massive battles, full scale collision detection will put too much load on performance.
but at the same time, collision detection could add a lot of goods to strategic team play .
if it were my decision, i would let tank classes have some kind of short duration self activation buff,
when triggered it activate collision detection on self and also some complimentary effect (like +armor etc.).
not saying the only solution is to pair CD with self buff but 'on demand' CD could be a viable way to do it.
(CD on enemy only. not friendly)
/Siber