I actually miss having arrows. Every game has taken them out. I'm usually a carpenter/woodworker if the game has it, if not, then I'm usually a weaponsmith. I can't count the hours I spent making arrows for my guild so we could gear up and go hit the frontiers with weapons and arrows flying I'm a crafter at heart, and an archer as my combat role. I love to make my own bows, arrows, hunt deer or whatever animals there are for food to cook, make campfires...you know, kinda like a hunter making it on his own in the wilds
Edit: Just to skip that whole babbling on, that I tend to do, nothing is more fun to me than people bringing me materials to craft arrows and weapons for them
1) Archery is, at the least, ranged dps. As such, limiting the dps is important for any scout class concept, because this game is puportedly one where everyone has a role to play that is distinct. Giving scouts too much damage AND usable scouting utility could possibly compromise the actual ranged dps class role (probably casters).
2) There are many possibilities for archery that don't involve pure damage, and this is where crafters come into play. Imagine a range of utility arrows that served different functions. Flares. Marking enemy groups on the fly and thus making them easier to track for a time. Pinning arrows that disabled other ranged abilities for a short time (ala nearsight) etc.
This opens up a wider trading world for crafters and lets scouts have "magical" arrows that operate mechanically like real arrows. Limit their dps but give them utility.
There is a lot that could be done with this model.
As to the firing model interface, I loved DAoC's original.
Being able to sidestep , backstep, , etc were very much a part of historical combat and defense. Not getting hit was just as important as blocking or parrying and a good way to open up for a counter..
Yes, and dodging attacks is built in via evasion to simulate sidestepping and backstepping. No one was running circles around their opponent, jumping and spinning in circles all while attacking. Simply put, circle-strafing is the worst thing to happen to melee combat in MMOs.
Circle strafing, if done right, can be a HUGE step forward for melee combat.
I'm not talking about how mmo's have did it, where circle strafing didn't affect your "dodge" but was done simply to make TARGETTING you hard and annoying (IE "spam circle/jumping around).
I mean a mechanic that supports locking to your target and then allowing your s/d keys to move you in a circle around your target and having an ability that allows you to quickly side-step/dodge or roll (depending on class) out of the way to try and dodge attacks.
IF you have ever played the game Severance: Blade of Darkness (Just known as Blade of Darkness in the US) it uses this kind of system and it makes the movement in melee combat feel sooooooo much more natural and realistic.
Dodging (and blocking if you use a shield) is a vital important part of aspect and you can't "spam " things (stamina cost) and have to use things wisely. It makes movement in of itself an important aspect of combat and gives contorl of it more to the player.
To me that is (from a gameplay perspective) more funt o play as a melee class then the usual mmo-style of die rolls determing your "dodge/evasion." Those kinds of things with computers can be simulation and allow the player to control it while also have the character skills impacting it. Such as a person with high agility being able to move more quickly, being able to "roll" quickly instead of just a side-step, etc. There are many ways to make character skills influence it without having to make it completely a character-skill action.
No thanks, go play GW2
You obviously either didn't read a word I said or haven't played GW2, it works nothing like GW2, which ihad a very "floaty" feel to it and targetted based attacks, it didn't have any real kind of kinetic impact on it's melee combat which felt more like a k"spam fest" then any real thought behind melee combat.
The difference between the way SEverance uses circle strafing, with dodges/blocks is leaps ahead of GW2 and completley different feeling and mechanics.
It has a stamina system tied into combat , you can't "spam " anything and doing so leaves you exhausted and open to being attacked.
Defense is a vitally important part of combat, more then any other melee action-game I played.
That's just my opinon on the whole circle strafing thing.
As far as archery goes, I wonder (like with the recent talk about Mages and fireballs "going somewhere" and people being able to dodge/block them) if Archery might perhaps work that way?
Where archers can fire attacks and people who are quick enough can dodge the arrow falling down or someone can step in front of it to save someone.
I did both.
i just don't want any twitch in the game. I have a hard enough time clicking on a kobold or lurk keen in the distance
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Originally posted by PerfArt Two things:
1) Archery is, at the least, ranged dps. As such, limiting the dps is important for any scout class concept, because this game is puportedly one where everyone has a role to play that is distinct. Giving scouts too much damage AND usable scouting utility could possibly compromise the actual ranged dps class role (probably casters).
2) There are many possibilities for archery that don't involve pure damage, and this is where crafters come into play. Imagine a range of utility arrows that served different functions. Flares. Marking enemy groups on the fly and thus making them easier to track for a time. Pinning arrows that disabled other ranged abilities for a short time (ala nearsight) etc.
This opens up a wider trading world for crafters and lets scouts have "magical" arrows that operate mechanically like real arrows. Limit their dps but give them utility.
There is a lot that could be done with this model.
As to the firing model interface, I loved DAoC's original.
I agree. I really do want to find a way to get scouts in the game as well as "pure" archers. I do think a very wide variety of arrows is also a good thing for both archers and crafters. Maybe I'm wrong on this but I think we can make archers powerful, interesting and a bit squishy and still have a class that people want to play but that other people can still kill. But the only way to do that is to be willing to really think about tossing out a lot of the mechanics that so many current MMOs use for their archer types.
OTOH, my brain is fried so I'm heading to bed while I can still figure out how to make one foot walk ahead of the other. Been a long week.
Oh, and if I haven't said it today, I really appreciate all the feedback/suggestions/patience of the community. It's been a lot of fun, even today and I remain deeply grateful. Night all.
I like the idea of multiple methods of firing a bow as well as diferent mechanics based on the type of bow. I would love to see atleast two forms of attack: Direct Fire and Volley.
With Direct Fire, you simply aim at the target and release. When volleying, you can shoot much farther but you no longer aim at a specific target, you aim at an area. Volley fire should be much faster with you striking random targets in the area and missing much more often.
I would love for magic to have varuing mechanics as well. You can cast fast with less effect or take a longer amount of time to increase the intensity. You can aim directly at a target or aim at a general location and hope to hit something.
I bore of the simplicity of most MMORPG combat mechanics. Click target, click hotkey, repeat, win or lose. I would love to have more thought go into combat. Do I stay farther back and volley into the fight or do I get closer and try to pick off specific targets. In large fights I view archers as more like artillery.
1) Archery is, at the least, ranged dps. As such, limiting the dps is important for any scout class concept, because this game is puportedly one where everyone has a role to play that is distinct. Giving scouts too much damage AND usable scouting utility could possibly compromise the actual ranged dps class role (probably casters).
2) There are many possibilities for archery that don't involve pure damage, and this is where crafters come into play. Imagine a range of utility arrows that served different functions. Flares. Marking enemy groups on the fly and thus making them easier to track for a time. Pinning arrows that disabled other ranged abilities for a short time (ala nearsight) etc.
This opens up a wider trading world for crafters and lets scouts have "magical" arrows that operate mechanically like real arrows. Limit their dps but give them utility.
There is a lot that could be done with this model.
As to the firing model interface, I loved DAoC's original.
The reason scouts have slightly longer range and higher damage is because that is all they have!
they don't step on caster's toes. They don't have debuffs, roots, mezz, stun, nearsighted, speed for the group. Should I go on?
Back on topic, archer classes. I really think the game mechanics will allow archers to gather materials in the field and make arrows so they will have plenty and will not have to worry about carry so many in their quiver. Having said that, what they will have to carry in their quivers are the high power magic arrows that they have no ability to make themselves. My understanding is that the crafters will be the ones who can make these and sell them to players. So the archers will have to use their precious magic arrows wisely. As far as the actual shooting mechanics, old DAOC had it right.
Oh, please do not mention magic arrows. Normal physical arrows are more than good enough. We don't want WoW or current DAoC style archery, and, while I know you weren't getting at that, it is a short step away.
Yep the slippery slope sometimes picks up speed.:)
@naezgul: wait... What scouts are we talking about? I am not talking about daoc scouts, but the hypothetical scouts in CU. IF scouts have higher utility, which it sounds like MJ is considering, then that utility makes them far different that daoc scouts. I thought they were fine.
Originally posted by meddyck I can do without having to carry around a supply of arrows.
While I can see where you are coming from Meddyck. This was one area where crafters were needed.:)
Also how many of the old school parts do we do away with just because it is more convenient?
I believe the idea with CU is that arrows, and other lower-tier crafting is now capable of anyone , not just crafters. Since anyone can go up the first level of crafting mundane items and things like arrows is something people will have access to craft and won't haev to depend on a pure crafter for.
Correct.
As to archers, I want to see them in the game but I also want to see us do something interesting with them before I commit to them as a class. I also absolutely believe that quivers filled with arrows are an important part of their class. Having to carry them around/be smart with ammo, give us the ability to make them a bit more powerful and interesting because they also have a bit of a handicap.
I also don't want to see one-shoting being a thing, we can do better than that with our archers or we shouldn't put them in at launch. However, I'll be optimistic and say that I would be surprised if we didn't have them in at launch.
This is about the most exciting thing I've read, so far! I always loved crafting my own arrows and how the quiver worked in DAoC... thought it really added some immersion and a kind of "quaintness" to the Archer classes.
I sincerely hope we get GRAPHICAL quivers, too!
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
DAoC's original archery system was superior to all other games I have played, and the changes to the current casting system was the primary reason for me leaving. I enjoyed the varuations in arrows, and while it was a slight nuisance to run out of arrows, my hunter could always rely on his spear until I was able to resupply. It would have been better if all frontier keeps had a crafting station where new ones could be fletched, but this is a different discussion.
In games like LotRO and GW2 archers feel more like casters, and not in a good way.
What needs to be addressed is the archery migitators. In DAoC they got out of hand, and in too many situations archery was completely useless. I recall one episode where I came across an Alb shield-user who was afk. I fired 20 arrows at him from directly behind him (so the shield should not be a factor), but he still blocked every arrow, and I had to run in and stab him to death with my spear. I also particpated in fights where I lined up behind the enemies (again to reduce effectiveness of shields) but every shot was blocked. I also experienced during sieges that a tank and a caster stepped out with the tank using his Guard ability (I think it was called) to block every arrow launched at them from about 15 hunters, and they took no significant damage. Casters' blade turn and brittle guards made life miserable since it negated our openers. It was possible to get around that by good positioning, but knowing that the initial crit-shot would be blocked every time and we had to hope the player didn't pay attention to BT dropping so we could get another shot in was disheartening.
Now, please don't construe this as a wish for archers to rule the battlefield, but there needs to be a balance. In the early days, archers were superior, but as the game progressed it became less and less of a use. In the early days, groups could run two archers (even hunters) and be competitive, but later on archers became just a part of the stealth community who fought their own war aside from the realm war.
I just want archers to be competitive, not superior or inferior.
It is going to be interesting to see where CU goes in this regard.
Originally posted by meddyck I can do without having to carry around a supply of arrows.
While I can see where you are coming from Meddyck. This was one area where crafters were needed.:)
Also how many of the old school parts do we do away with just because it is more convenient?
The issue is it is a limitation that no other class (except assassins/rogues if they use poisons and poisons are implemented as inventory objects like in DAOC) has to deal with. Casters aren't likely to need to carry around a stock of reagents and be unable to cast particular spells if they don't have the right items in inventory. Tanks won't need to carry whetstones and periodically stop to sharpen their swords. Healers won't have to go back to a temple periodically to commune with the gods to refresh their healing ability. Having to make sure you have 1,000 of 3 different types of arrows in your bags before you go out and RvR doesn't make an archer more fun.
I can deal with keeping a supply of arrows just like I did in DAOC, but I'd rather not have to.
Not everything that was "old school" was necessarily good and worth repeating in a new game 14 years later.
Having had overnight to /ponder arrows and quivers and fletching, I think that having to have actual arrows...and different kinds of arrows, added quite a lot of immersion to the game...to say nothing of strategy. I never thought I would find myself saying this, but I think it is true.
My main beef with it at the time was trying to find someone to make decent arrows for me (so I became a fletcher) and having to fill up bag slots with arrows when I needed them for other stuff (which is helped by a quiver). Encumbrance was also an issue...ugh.
Do we know if CU's commitment to in-game physics extends to encumbrance? Because if it does, I may have to repress my usual love for itsy bitsy toons, lol.
I think I would take some blankety-blank encumbrance, though - and even potential loss of inventory slots - to have a decent version of arrow firing and flight once more. That was one of the best parts of being an archer in DAoC. It had to be complicated as heck to code, but it was amazing.
It's been great to see so many people on this thread talking about how much they enjoyed it. I thought in the meantime maybe there had been some other good version of an archer out there and I had missed it , but apparently not. Some very cool ideas for versions of archers, too.
There's a lot of poetry in carrying a bow...and a lot of satisfaction in killing someone with it, lol. THWACK!
The bonus for giving up your time fletching, and your slots was that you could switch your damage type to whatever the enemy's weakness was. I don't recall which is which, but if you saw a warrior in plate running at your keep, you switched to blunthead arrows, etc. This was a big advantage that no other class type had in daoc. Your attacks, if you know what you were doing, could always be the maximum compared to say a wizard that fired bolts of fire. Some one runs up to you with like 60% fire resistance...you're pretty much dead hehe.
/agree about the supply of arrows...I had almost completely repressed that memory, meddyck, lol.
Would be even cooler if there was a limited supply of arrows but you could get some arrows back off your enemy after slaying him if you manage to get close enough to his corpse.
Also I wouldn't mind seeing an archer class that has a couple melee attacks using an arrow as a melee weapon (Legolas style) or even his bow.
Originally posted by Gravarg The bonus for giving up your time fletching, and your slots was that you could switch your damage type to whatever the enemy's weakness was. I don't recall which is which, but if you saw a warrior in plate running at your keep, you switched to blunthead arrows, etc. This was a big advantage that no other class type had in daoc. Your attacks, if you know what you were doing, could always be the maximum compared to say a wizard that fired bolts of fire. Some one runs up to you with like 60% fire resistance...you're pretty much dead hehe.
You don't need inventory arrows for that. After archery was revamped in DAOC, you still had abilities that chnaged your arrows' damage type to crush, thrust, or slash to allow you to take advantage of the armor your target was wearing.
Assuming a limited space for arrows in a quiver, one could imagine a battle where one or two crafter(s) might participate by ensuring that archers had a constant supply of arrows during the fight. Would be cool if archers could also loot dead corpses to recover arrows. I assume that wouldn't be the only thing the crafters would be doing during the fight but the idea adds to team play.
Originally posted by Daizedd Assuming a limited space for arrows in a quiver, one could imagine a battle where one or two crafter(s) might participate by ensuring that archers had a constant supply of arrows during the fight. Would be cool if archers could also loot dead corpses to recover arrows.
And maybe the durability went down on that arrow so it can be reused but eventually would break... and if you killed 5 people with the same arrow there's a title in it for you.. and crafters some how crit create a special stack of extra powerfull arrows... and you can save them for when you want to hit a little harder and actively seek to get them back after you use them...
Originally posted by Daizedd Assuming a limited space for arrows in a quiver, one could imagine a battle where one or two crafter(s) might participate by ensuring that archers had a constant supply of arrows during the fight. Would be cool if archers could also loot dead corpses to recover arrows.
And maybe the durability went down on that arrow so it can be reused but eventually would break... and if you killed 5 people with the same arrow there's a title in it for you.. and crafters some how crit create a special stack of extra powerfull arrows... and you can save them for when you want to hit a little harder and actively seek to get them back after you use them...
Love these ideas!
Having lots of ways for crafters to be useful...and even essential...in strategic warfare is terrific, and it would be great if they could crit a stack of extra-wonderful arrows.
Looting arrows would be a way of mitigating the interesting problem of having to carry 2000 arrows around with you everywhere you go. A chance to replenish your arrow supply...but only if you are victorious.
1) Archery is, at the least, ranged dps. As such, limiting the dps is important for any scout class concept, because this game is puportedly one where everyone has a role to play that is distinct. Giving scouts too much damage AND usable scouting utility could possibly compromise the actual ranged dps class role (probably casters).
2) There are many possibilities for archery that don't involve pure damage, and this is where crafters come into play. Imagine a range of utility arrows that served different functions. Flares. Marking enemy groups on the fly and thus making them easier to track for a time. Pinning arrows that disabled other ranged abilities for a short time (ala nearsight) etc.
This opens up a wider trading world for crafters and lets scouts have "magical" arrows that operate mechanically like real arrows. Limit their dps but give them utility.
There is a lot that could be done with this model.
As to the firing model interface, I loved DAoC's original.
I agree. I really do want to find a way to get scouts in the game as well as "pure" archers. I do think a very wide variety of arrows is also a good thing for both archers and crafters. Maybe I'm wrong on this but I think we can make archers powerful, interesting and a bit squishy and still have a class that people want to play but that other people can still kill. But the only way to do that is to be willing to really think about tossing out a lot of the mechanics that so many current MMOs use for their archer types.
OTOH, my brain is fried so I'm heading to bed while I can still figure out how to make one foot walk ahead of the other. Been a long week.
Oh, and if I haven't said it today, I really appreciate all the feedback/suggestions/patience of the community. It's been a lot of fun, even today and I remain deeply grateful. Night all.
I think that there is a way to approach scouting and archers as one and the same class, without having them being "considered" OPed.
Before i continue, i want to mention that i'll be approaching stealth, but i do not want to hijack this thread and making it yet another stealth related thread. So' i'll mention how i think it could work as its pretty much related to the bow mechanics.
What i started to think about was this : what exactly is Stealth ? its not only a skill, but a specialisation, that includes other skills than the usual "don't be seen" in order to be a "master of discretion"
I think it can be possible to make archer classes become also the scout class without making them too powerful with long range shots with high damage and giving them a high stealth "level" ability. Having bow and stealth as two distinct spec lines. the more efficient your stealth is, the lower is your damage possibility with a bow.
Using DAoC's numbers regarding your level. at max level 50 you could have i.e. 25 in bow and 25 in stealth. The total amount of "levels" between the 2 of them would never go higher than 50. you could have 40 in stealth, and 10 in bow, etc.
That leaves the scouts function to bow users, wich i think thats how it should be. and at the same time you limit the OP possibility behind it.
A good way to make stealth a pure stealth spec line is having more than the actual stealthing ability in that line, but skills, and other factors that affect your stealth could be added :
- move silently : someone can stealth, but it doesnt mean he wont make any noise. adding the move silently skill in the stealth line spec (either learned before or after stealth is learned, depending on other factors), so implementing footsteps sounds, or i.e. random sounds that are made by the stealthers at random moments (depending on stats or skill) could be a way to make it riskier, and it would work well with the chaos FP and randomness FP.
- Armor / equipment : The armor the stealther is wearing should definatly have an impact on all skills within stealth line spec (making cloth, and fur the best choices, thus removing alot of absorbance from bigger armor) (Choice matters !)
- Time needed to activate stealth : It could be determined from the level of stealth, it shouldnt be as easy for a "level 3" to hide himself as fast as a higher level.
- add a "crawl" movement : It would make more sense in certain situations to have to crawl in order to stealth properly. Crawling COULD also be a skill. On that same thought, there could be a "move silently" skill in walking position, and one in crawling mode.
- Encumbrance : could also be a key factor. the more stuff you have, the more weight you carry, the more difficult it could be to stealth / move silently
- Numbers counts ! : "The more the merrier" could be something that stealthers don't agree; the more important is the quantity of stealther within a certain radius, the more likely they are to be detected, unless maybe they're setting an ambush and no movement at all is made, until a sudden attack
Landscape : A key factor for any good stealther is the landscape he is travelling in. So there is a few things that i thought regarding that :
- First option : Why not make the different landscape found in CU haviing either + or - bonuses ?
- Second option : Make stealth in each landscape a level required ? (i.e. forest = level 5 , swamps = level 15, towns = level 25 etc).
- Third option : At specific levels of stealth, you are allowed to choose one more landscape in wich you are good at stealthing. Players could then choose where they will more efficient.
- Fourth possibility : At character creation, make a section where stealthers wannabes can be given i.e. 20 points to put wherever they want in the various landscapes ?
So going back the topic of this thread, doing something like this would allow to keep a bow mechanic / damage input relatively like it was in DAoC, because most of us agree that it was pretty good. What was considered OPed was that it was combined with stealth, allowing big initial damage from a invisible position. Doing something like that (and i sure aint saying it should be implemented exactly like this, but its a good way to approach this) would allow scouting the class that it belongs the most : archers.
P.S. : please dont debate on the stealth options mentionned, they were written there especially to approach the "problem" of allowing bows to stealther, wich concerns the bow mechanic in general. I'll be more than happy to discuss those in another thread or in PM if needs be.
Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC Thurka on WAR
1) Archery is, at the least, ranged dps. As such, limiting the dps is important for any scout class concept, because this game is puportedly one where everyone has a role to play that is distinct. Giving scouts too much damage AND usable scouting utility could possibly compromise the actual ranged dps class role (probably casters).
2) There are many possibilities for archery that don't involve pure damage, and this is where crafters come into play. Imagine a range of utility arrows that served different functions. Flares. Marking enemy groups on the fly and thus making them easier to track for a time. Pinning arrows that disabled other ranged abilities for a short time (ala nearsight) etc.
This opens up a wider trading world for crafters and lets scouts have "magical" arrows that operate mechanically like real arrows. Limit their dps but give them utility.
There is a lot that could be done with this model.
As to the firing model interface, I loved DAoC's original.
I agree. I really do want to find a way to get scouts in the game as well as "pure" archers. I do think a very wide variety of arrows is also a good thing for both archers and crafters. Maybe I'm wrong on this but I think we can make archers powerful, interesting and a bit squishy and still have a class that people want to play but that other people can still kill. But the only way to do that is to be willing to really think about tossing out a lot of the mechanics that so many current MMOs use for their archer types.
OTOH, my brain is fried so I'm heading to bed while I can still figure out how to make one foot walk ahead of the other. Been a long week.
Oh, and if I haven't said it today, I really appreciate all the feedback/suggestions/patience of the community. It's been a lot of fun, even today and I remain deeply grateful. Night all.
(SNIP)
I think it can be possible to make archer classes become also the scout class without making them too powerful with long range shots with high damage and giving them a high stealth "level" ability. Having bow and stealth as two distinct spec lines. the more efficient your stealth is, the lower is your damage possibility with a bow.
(SNIP)
Landscape : A key factor for any good stealther is the landscape he is travelling in. So there is a few things that i thought regarding that :
- First option : Why not make the different landscape found in CU haviing either + or - bonuses ?
- Second option : Make stealth in each landscape a level required ? (i.e. forest = level 5 , swamps = level 15, towns = level 25 etc).
- Third option : At specific levels of stealth, you are allowed to choose one more landscape in wich you are good at stealthing. Players could then choose where they will more efficient.
- Fourth possibility : At character creation, make a section where stealthers wannabes can be given i.e. 20 points to put wherever they want in the various landscapes ?
So going back the topic of this thread, doing something like this would allow to keep a bow mechanic / damage input relatively like it was in DAoC, because most of us agree that it was pretty good. What was considered OPed was that it was combined with stealth, allowing big initial damage from a invisible position. Doing something like that (and i sure aint saying it should be implemented exactly like this, but its a good way to approach this) would allow scouting the class that it belongs the most : archers.
(SNIP)
I like your ideas and specifically wanted to agree with the parts above. Its clear the bow class will need to be different than it has been in other mmos. Take out stealth or massive shots from uber long range. As you mention here (and go into great depth sharing examples of), it can be done ! Thanks for the thoughts on the bow class. I had been thinking about the issue myself and came to the same conclusion about terrain being one answer to an interesting and viable bow class. Good stuff Bowbow - thanks for looking out for our archers!
Originally posted by Daizedd Assuming a limited space for arrows in a quiver, one could imagine a battle where one or two crafter(s) might participate by ensuring that archers had a constant supply of arrows during the fight. Would be cool if archers could also loot dead corpses to recover arrows. I assume that wouldn't be the only thing the crafters would be doing during the fight but the idea adds to team play.
This is very interesting in that fighting would also keep the crafters busy. Nice idea Daizedd.:)
Originally posted by Gravarg The bonus for giving up your time fletching, and your slots was that you could switch your damage type to whatever the enemy's weakness was. I don't recall which is which, but if you saw a warrior in plate running at your keep, you switched to blunthead arrows, etc. This was a big advantage that no other class type had in daoc. Your attacks, if you know what you were doing, could always be the maximum compared to say a wizard that fired bolts of fire. Some one runs up to you with like 60% fire resistance...you're pretty much dead hehe.
Not quite true....most casters had more than one type of damage they could cast.....
I believe one of the original RAs was "Arrow Recovery" or "Salvage" or something which allowed Archers a probability to not expend an arrow on shots... or am I dreaming that? Or thinking of another game?
Again, I'll say I liked the crafted arrow mechanic. I enjoyed filling my quiver and going out into battle. It also annoyed me when I'd look at my quiver and realize I was low on Footed Flight Barbed arrows so I'd have to choose my targets wisely... in a good way. That's just a great, immersive part of the game which added a clever layer to battle without affecting its workings or balance.
Was it a disadvantage? Sure... so what? In the specific context of battle, it didn't make any difference.
Here's a thought about resupplying: There has been a lot of talk about "supply chains" and "supply wagons" bringing siege materials here and there. Why not make these wagons serve as "moving crafting stations" so Archers can craft arrows, tanks can hone weapons, smiths can repair armor on the battlefield? That kind of stuff. Or, perhaps a crafter class could provide this ability...
Oh, and.... GRAPHICAL QUIVERS FTW!
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
Comments
I actually miss having arrows. Every game has taken them out. I'm usually a carpenter/woodworker if the game has it, if not, then I'm usually a weaponsmith. I can't count the hours I spent making arrows for my guild so we could gear up and go hit the frontiers with weapons and arrows flying
I'm a crafter at heart, and an archer as my combat role. I love to make my own bows, arrows, hunt deer or whatever animals there are for food to cook, make campfires...you know, kinda like a hunter making it on his own in the wilds 
Edit: Just to skip that whole babbling on, that I tend to do, nothing is more fun to me than people bringing me materials to craft arrows and weapons for them
Me too. We've discussed it a lot in the office.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
1) Archery is, at the least, ranged dps. As such, limiting the dps is important for any scout class concept, because this game is puportedly one where everyone has a role to play that is distinct. Giving scouts too much damage AND usable scouting utility could possibly compromise the actual ranged dps class role (probably casters).
2) There are many possibilities for archery that don't involve pure damage, and this is where crafters come into play. Imagine a range of utility arrows that served different functions. Flares. Marking enemy groups on the fly and thus making them easier to track for a time. Pinning arrows that disabled other ranged abilities for a short time (ala nearsight) etc.
This opens up a wider trading world for crafters and lets scouts have "magical" arrows that operate mechanically like real arrows. Limit their dps but give them utility.
There is a lot that could be done with this model.
As to the firing model interface, I loved DAoC's original.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
I did both.
i just don't want any twitch in the game. I have a hard enough time clicking on a kobold or lurk keen in the distance
I agree. I really do want to find a way to get scouts in the game as well as "pure" archers. I do think a very wide variety of arrows is also a good thing for both archers and crafters. Maybe I'm wrong on this but I think we can make archers powerful, interesting and a bit squishy and still have a class that people want to play but that other people can still kill. But the only way to do that is to be willing to really think about tossing out a lot of the mechanics that so many current MMOs use for their archer types.
OTOH, my brain is fried so I'm heading to bed while I can still figure out how to make one foot walk ahead of the other. Been a long week.
Oh, and if I haven't said it today, I really appreciate all the feedback/suggestions/patience of the community. It's been a lot of fun, even today and I remain deeply grateful. Night all.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
A bolt took longer to cast with massive ddamage
The reason scouts have slightly longer range and higher damage is because that is all they have!
they don't step on caster's toes. They don't have debuffs, roots, mezz, stun, nearsighted, speed for the group. Should I go on?
Yep the slippery slope sometimes picks up speed.:)
@naezgul: wait... What scouts are we talking about? I am not talking about daoc scouts, but the hypothetical scouts in CU. IF scouts have higher utility, which it sounds like MJ is considering, then that utility makes them far different that daoc scouts. I thought they were fine.
Miscommunication
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
This is about the most exciting thing I've read, so far! I always loved crafting my own arrows and how the quiver worked in DAoC... thought it really added some immersion and a kind of "quaintness" to the Archer classes.
I sincerely hope we get GRAPHICAL quivers, too!
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
DAoC's original archery system was superior to all other games I have played, and the changes to the current casting system was the primary reason for me leaving. I enjoyed the varuations in arrows, and while it was a slight nuisance to run out of arrows, my hunter could always rely on his spear until I was able to resupply. It would have been better if all frontier keeps had a crafting station where new ones could be fletched, but this is a different discussion.
In games like LotRO and GW2 archers feel more like casters, and not in a good way.
What needs to be addressed is the archery migitators. In DAoC they got out of hand, and in too many situations archery was completely useless. I recall one episode where I came across an Alb shield-user who was afk. I fired 20 arrows at him from directly behind him (so the shield should not be a factor), but he still blocked every arrow, and I had to run in and stab him to death with my spear. I also particpated in fights where I lined up behind the enemies (again to reduce effectiveness of shields) but every shot was blocked. I also experienced during sieges that a tank and a caster stepped out with the tank using his Guard ability (I think it was called) to block every arrow launched at them from about 15 hunters, and they took no significant damage. Casters' blade turn and brittle guards made life miserable since it negated our openers. It was possible to get around that by good positioning, but knowing that the initial crit-shot would be blocked every time and we had to hope the player didn't pay attention to BT dropping so we could get another shot in was disheartening.
Now, please don't construe this as a wish for archers to rule the battlefield, but there needs to be a balance. In the early days, archers were superior, but as the game progressed it became less and less of a use. In the early days, groups could run two archers (even hunters) and be competitive, but later on archers became just a part of the stealth community who fought their own war aside from the realm war.
I just want archers to be competitive, not superior or inferior.
It is going to be interesting to see where CU goes in this regard.
The issue is it is a limitation that no other class (except assassins/rogues if they use poisons and poisons are implemented as inventory objects like in DAOC) has to deal with. Casters aren't likely to need to carry around a stock of reagents and be unable to cast particular spells if they don't have the right items in inventory. Tanks won't need to carry whetstones and periodically stop to sharpen their swords. Healers won't have to go back to a temple periodically to commune with the gods to refresh their healing ability. Having to make sure you have 1,000 of 3 different types of arrows in your bags before you go out and RvR doesn't make an archer more fun.
I can deal with keeping a supply of arrows just like I did in DAOC, but I'd rather not have to.
Not everything that was "old school" was necessarily good and worth repeating in a new game 14 years later.
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
Having had overnight to /ponder arrows and quivers and fletching, I think that having to have actual arrows...and different kinds of arrows, added quite a lot of immersion to the game...to say nothing of strategy. I never thought I would find myself saying this, but I think it is true.
My main beef with it at the time was trying to find someone to make decent arrows for me (so I became a fletcher) and having to fill up bag slots with arrows when I needed them for other stuff (which is helped by a quiver). Encumbrance was also an issue...ugh.
Do we know if CU's commitment to in-game physics extends to encumbrance? Because if it does, I may have to repress my usual love for itsy bitsy toons, lol.
I think I would take some blankety-blank encumbrance, though - and even potential loss of inventory slots - to have a decent version of arrow firing and flight once more. That was one of the best parts of being an archer in DAoC. It had to be complicated as heck to code, but it was amazing.
It's been great to see so many people on this thread talking about how much they enjoyed it. I thought in the meantime maybe there had been some other good version of an archer out there and I had missed it , but apparently not. Some very cool ideas for versions of archers, too.
There's a lot of poetry in carrying a bow...and a lot of satisfaction in killing someone with it, lol. THWACK!
Would be even cooler if there was a limited supply of arrows but you could get some arrows back off your enemy after slaying him if you manage to get close enough to his corpse.
Also I wouldn't mind seeing an archer class that has a couple melee attacks using an arrow as a melee weapon (Legolas style) or even his bow.
You don't need inventory arrows for that. After archery was revamped in DAOC, you still had abilities that chnaged your arrows' damage type to crush, thrust, or slash to allow you to take advantage of the armor your target was wearing.
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
And maybe the durability went down on that arrow so it can be reused but eventually would break... and if you killed 5 people with the same arrow there's a title in it for you.. and crafters some how crit create a special stack of extra powerfull arrows... and you can save them for when you want to hit a little harder and actively seek to get them back after you use them...
/anon
Love these ideas!
Having lots of ways for crafters to be useful...and even essential...in strategic warfare is terrific, and it would be great if they could crit a stack of extra-wonderful arrows.
Looting arrows would be a way of mitigating the interesting problem of having to carry 2000 arrows around with you everywhere you go. A chance to replenish your arrow supply...but only if you are victorious.
I think that there is a way to approach scouting and archers as one and the same class, without having them being "considered" OPed.
Before i continue, i want to mention that i'll be approaching stealth, but i do not want to hijack this thread and making it yet another stealth related thread. So' i'll mention how i think it could work as its pretty much related to the bow mechanics.
What i started to think about was this : what exactly is Stealth ? its not only a skill, but a specialisation, that includes other skills than the usual "don't be seen" in order to be a "master of discretion"
I think it can be possible to make archer classes become also the scout class without making them too powerful with long range shots with high damage and giving them a high stealth "level" ability. Having bow and stealth as two distinct spec lines. the more efficient your stealth is, the lower is your damage possibility with a bow.
Using DAoC's numbers regarding your level. at max level 50 you could have i.e. 25 in bow and 25 in stealth. The total amount of "levels" between the 2 of them would never go higher than 50. you could have 40 in stealth, and 10 in bow, etc.
That leaves the scouts function to bow users, wich i think thats how it should be. and at the same time you limit the OP possibility behind it.
A good way to make stealth a pure stealth spec line is having more than the actual stealthing ability in that line, but skills, and other factors that affect your stealth could be added :
- move silently : someone can stealth, but it doesnt mean he wont make any noise. adding the move silently skill in the stealth line spec (either learned before or after stealth is learned, depending on other factors), so implementing footsteps sounds, or i.e. random sounds that are made by the stealthers at random moments (depending on stats or skill) could be a way to make it riskier, and it would work well with the chaos FP and randomness FP.
- Armor / equipment : The armor the stealther is wearing should definatly have an impact on all skills within stealth line spec (making cloth, and fur the best choices, thus removing alot of absorbance from bigger armor) (Choice matters !)
- Time needed to activate stealth : It could be determined from the level of stealth, it shouldnt be as easy for a "level 3" to hide himself as fast as a higher level.
- add a "crawl" movement : It would make more sense in certain situations to have to crawl in order to stealth properly. Crawling COULD also be a skill. On that same thought, there could be a "move silently" skill in walking position, and one in crawling mode.
- Encumbrance : could also be a key factor. the more stuff you have, the more weight you carry, the more difficult it could be to stealth / move silently
- Numbers counts ! : "The more the merrier" could be something that stealthers don't agree; the more important is the quantity of stealther within a certain radius, the more likely they are to be detected, unless maybe they're setting an ambush and no movement at all is made, until a sudden attack
Landscape : A key factor for any good stealther is the landscape he is travelling in. So there is a few things that i thought regarding that :
- First option : Why not make the different landscape found in CU haviing either + or - bonuses ?
- Second option : Make stealth in each landscape a level required ? (i.e. forest = level 5 , swamps = level 15, towns = level 25 etc).
- Third option : At specific levels of stealth, you are allowed to choose one more landscape in wich you are good at stealthing. Players could then choose where they will more efficient.
- Fourth possibility : At character creation, make a section where stealthers wannabes can be given i.e. 20 points to put wherever they want in the various landscapes ?
So going back the topic of this thread, doing something like this would allow to keep a bow mechanic / damage input relatively like it was in DAoC, because most of us agree that it was pretty good. What was considered OPed was that it was combined with stealth, allowing big initial damage from a invisible position. Doing something like that (and i sure aint saying it should be implemented exactly like this, but its a good way to approach this) would allow scouting the class that it belongs the most : archers.
P.S. : please dont debate on the stealth options mentionned, they were written there especially to approach the "problem" of allowing bows to stealther, wich concerns the bow mechanic in general. I'll be more than happy to discuss those in another thread or in PM if needs be.
Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
Thurka on WAR
I like your ideas and specifically wanted to agree with the parts above. Its clear the bow class will need to be different than it has been in other mmos. Take out stealth or massive shots from uber long range. As you mention here (and go into great depth sharing examples of), it can be done ! Thanks for the thoughts on the bow class. I had been thinking about the issue myself and came to the same conclusion about terrain being one answer to an interesting and viable bow class. Good stuff Bowbow - thanks for looking out for our archers!
This is very interesting in that fighting would also keep the crafters busy. Nice idea Daizedd.:)
Not quite true....most casters had more than one type of damage they could cast.....
I believe one of the original RAs was "Arrow Recovery" or "Salvage" or something which allowed Archers a probability to not expend an arrow on shots... or am I dreaming that? Or thinking of another game?
Again, I'll say I liked the crafted arrow mechanic. I enjoyed filling my quiver and going out into battle. It also annoyed me when I'd look at my quiver and realize I was low on Footed Flight Barbed arrows so I'd have to choose my targets wisely... in a good way. That's just a great, immersive part of the game which added a clever layer to battle without affecting its workings or balance.
Was it a disadvantage? Sure... so what? In the specific context of battle, it didn't make any difference.
Here's a thought about resupplying: There has been a lot of talk about "supply chains" and "supply wagons" bringing siege materials here and there. Why not make these wagons serve as "moving crafting stations" so Archers can craft arrows, tanks can hone weapons, smiths can repair armor on the battlefield? That kind of stuff. Or, perhaps a crafter class could provide this ability...
Oh, and.... GRAPHICAL QUIVERS FTW!
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!