No stealth for archers. They didn't need it in DaoC and they won't need it in CU. Allowing a class to have stealth and superior range is a broken mechanic no matter how you look at it.
I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!
Originally posted by fanglo No stealth for archers. They didn't need it in DaoC and they won't need it in CU. Allowing a class to have stealth and superior range is a broken mechanic no matter how you look at it.
This is an unfair generalization. It was not a broken mechanic in DAoC, it was a misunderstood mechanic with myriad counters which players were slow to recognize in the early days. In the very early days of the game, shields were grossly underutilized, as was /guard and /engage. I remember picking off casters running WITH tanks who were not /guarding... and destroying 2-Handed Pallies because they just wouldn't equip a shield... as time went on, players learned and adapted.
Unfortunately for Archers, there were a few knee-jerk reactions from Mythic which began the slow, painful castration of the class archetype. By the time ToA got rolling, pure-Archers could kill no one, reliably... least of all casters.
Now, I'm not advocating for the Stealth/Archer paradigm. I would much rather see an Archer class with some nice DPS and utility and/or a Scout class with some interesting skills and utility. But I do think it's a false generalization to say Stealth and Range are bad together.
I think one of the standards for an Archer class should be a GTAoE/ "Volley" type ability.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
Originally posted by fanglo No stealth for archers. They didn't need it in DaoC and they won't need it in CU. Allowing a class to have stealth and superior range is a broken mechanic no matter how you look at it.
The "no matter how you look at it" is totally false. There is plenty of ways to have both in the same class if we wanted to. In some games they simply didnt work at it. I suggested a general idea for that too, a diferent approach that can lead to something better.
even in DAoC it wasnt that OPed, i'm not saying it didnt need a bit of adjustements, but the fact is it wasnt that much unbalanced. As always, the combination of stealth and long range big damage made it look worst, but if little adjustments is made, the problem is solved.
Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC Thurka on WAR
Originally posted by fanglo No stealth for archers. They didn't need it in DaoC and they won't need it in CU. Allowing a class to have stealth and superior range is a broken mechanic no matter how you look at it.
Everyone should have stealth. Hide in bush or behind object, people dont see you. Everyone should have some ability to hide. I would say that Archers should not have invisibility. I am tired of invisibility being called "stealth". It shouldnt be hard to add some kind of stealth mechanic that works hand in hand with the environment.
The only problem with everyone stealthing is that we need to kill the possibility of 8 man stealth squads which should be simple, the more people hiding the in the same bush or behind the same tree the less of a stealth modifier that object gives.
Now what archers really need are some mechanics that use the environment like:
1. Higher elevation leads to greater range.
2. Cover is gained by being surrounded by environmental objects and other players. The archer may strike cover instead of his intended target. You might still end up hitting a player, just not the one you are aiming at.
3. Ghillie suit adding to greater stealth in combination with the environment.
I am also tired of seeing every character in a specific class get every ability of that class. There is no thought or character customization. Give us options and let us decide of our scout becomes. Maybe someone picks up a pet, spear, and shortbow and wants a close combat scout. Maybe someone picks up a longbow and focuses entirely on it. Variation is king, sadly mmorpgs refuse to give it to us for the sake of "ease of balancing" and ironically they still rarely get balance correctly.
I am also tired of seeing every character in a specific class get every ability of that class. There is no thought or character customization. Give us options and let us decide of our scout becomes. Maybe someone picks up a pet, spear, and shortbow and wants a close combat scout. Maybe someone picks up a longbow and focuses entirely on it. Variation is king, sadly mmorpgs refuse to give it to us for the sake of "ease of balancing" and ironically they still rarely get balance correctly.
Agree. That was my thinking in proposing to have one class (call it a Rogue or Scout) that had the options to spec stealth (including the ability to climb walls) and use various types of bows, dual wield (different weapons in each realm), and poisons. You wouldn't be able to be good at all of those things, but you could be very good at 2 of them and have a bit of the one or two more. Depending on which options you focused on, your rogue would play very differently from somebody else's. Basically it'd be a mix of archer and assassin but without the big from stealth openers with stun that make people hate them in other games.
I am also tired of seeing every character in a specific class get every ability of that class. There is no thought or character customization. Give us options and let us decide of our scout becomes. Maybe someone picks up a pet, spear, and shortbow and wants a close combat scout. Maybe someone picks up a longbow and focuses entirely on it. Variation is king, sadly mmorpgs refuse to give it to us for the sake of "ease of balancing" and ironically they still rarely get balance correctly.
Agree. That was my thinking in proposing to have one class (call it a Rogue or Scout) that had the options to spec stealth (including the ability to climb walls) and use various types of bows, dual wield (different weapons in each realm), and poisons. You wouldn't be able to be good at all of those things, but you could be very good at 2 of them and have a bit of the one or two more. Depending on which options you focused on, your rogue would play very differently from somebody else's. Basically it'd be a mix of archer and assassin but without the big from stealth openers with stun that make people hate them in other games.
Only thing needed to tone down stealth is the detection rate. Environment should be a major factor in determining how often a sneak is going to be able to deliver a devastating blow.
I was a Kobold Hunter once, and I loved the class. I didn't even specced my stealth skill as I was willing to play a role in a group as an archer as in "alternative caster", specciing the other three skills instead (bow, spear and buffs/pets).
I'm all for a classic (as in DAoC style) archer class
Tusken Raiders - Your Italian Guild on Star Wars: The Old Republic
Comments
All melee damage dealers had that same advantage to some extent. you could fight with a mace, a sword etc, witch dealt different kind of damage.
Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
Thurka on WAR
I give it two broadheads up.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
Yep a must have!
I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!
Fair enough. However, what would you give them to compensate?
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
This is an unfair generalization. It was not a broken mechanic in DAoC, it was a misunderstood mechanic with myriad counters which players were slow to recognize in the early days. In the very early days of the game, shields were grossly underutilized, as was /guard and /engage. I remember picking off casters running WITH tanks who were not /guarding... and destroying 2-Handed Pallies because they just wouldn't equip a shield... as time went on, players learned and adapted.
Unfortunately for Archers, there were a few knee-jerk reactions from Mythic which began the slow, painful castration of the class archetype. By the time ToA got rolling, pure-Archers could kill no one, reliably... least of all casters.
Now, I'm not advocating for the Stealth/Archer paradigm. I would much rather see an Archer class with some nice DPS and utility and/or a Scout class with some interesting skills and utility. But I do think it's a false generalization to say Stealth and Range are bad together.
I think one of the standards for an Archer class should be a GTAoE/ "Volley" type ability.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
The "no matter how you look at it" is totally false. There is plenty of ways to have both in the same class if we wanted to. In some games they simply didnt work at it. I suggested a general idea for that too, a diferent approach that can lead to something better.
even in DAoC it wasnt that OPed, i'm not saying it didnt need a bit of adjustements, but the fact is it wasnt that much unbalanced. As always, the combination of stealth and long range big damage made it look worst, but if little adjustments is made, the problem is solved.
Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
Thurka on WAR
You're right, Tumblebutz...there was an RA that gave you a chance not to expend an arrow. Had forgotten that.
It would be more fun...and challenging...to have to loot them off of bodies, though.
Some fantastic ideas here!
Everyone should have stealth. Hide in bush or behind object, people dont see you. Everyone should have some ability to hide. I would say that Archers should not have invisibility. I am tired of invisibility being called "stealth". It shouldnt be hard to add some kind of stealth mechanic that works hand in hand with the environment.
The only problem with everyone stealthing is that we need to kill the possibility of 8 man stealth squads which should be simple, the more people hiding the in the same bush or behind the same tree the less of a stealth modifier that object gives.
Now what archers really need are some mechanics that use the environment like:
1. Higher elevation leads to greater range.
2. Cover is gained by being surrounded by environmental objects and other players. The archer may strike cover instead of his intended target. You might still end up hitting a player, just not the one you are aiming at.
3. Ghillie suit adding to greater stealth in combination with the environment.
I am also tired of seeing every character in a specific class get every ability of that class. There is no thought or character customization. Give us options and let us decide of our scout becomes. Maybe someone picks up a pet, spear, and shortbow and wants a close combat scout. Maybe someone picks up a longbow and focuses entirely on it. Variation is king, sadly mmorpgs refuse to give it to us for the sake of "ease of balancing" and ironically they still rarely get balance correctly.
Agree. That was my thinking in proposing to have one class (call it a Rogue or Scout) that had the options to spec stealth (including the ability to climb walls) and use various types of bows, dual wield (different weapons in each realm), and poisons. You wouldn't be able to be good at all of those things, but you could be very good at 2 of them and have a bit of the one or two more. Depending on which options you focused on, your rogue would play very differently from somebody else's. Basically it'd be a mix of archer and assassin but without the big from stealth openers with stun that make people hate them in other games.
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
Only thing needed to tone down stealth is the detection rate. Environment should be a major factor in determining how often a sneak is going to be able to deliver a devastating blow.
I was a Kobold Hunter once, and I loved the class. I didn't even specced my stealth skill as I was willing to play a role in a group as an archer as in "alternative caster", specciing the other three skills instead (bow, spear and buffs/pets).
I'm all for a classic (as in DAoC style) archer class
Tusken Raiders - Your Italian Guild on Star Wars: The Old Republic