I mean what does it do, let you buy the latest raid set? If thats the case isnt that like buying a book and only reading the last page? Not really winning.
People have diffrent definitions of winning. Winning don't have to be formalized and actual beating of your opponent. It does not even have to be formalized in any kind of ranking. For more clarification: how diffrently people see 'winning' or 'power' in games (for some people 'power' does not even have to be connected to combat' in any way) read:
Originally posted by Torgrim I boycotted this game as soon as I knew Cryptic was behind the wheel.
Please stop using that word incorrectly. Unless you wrote letters to all companies involved, told all your friends and family and generally tried to create a grass-roots movement to shed light on the behavior of cryptic, you didn't boycott anything.
There is a world of difference between a boycott and someone deciding to pass on a game.
The reason it matters is because boycotting something is one of the few effective tools we have as consumers to affect large corporations, and the way everyone uses the word online for the most asinine of dev decisions both cheapens it and turns others off when they even hear it.
Now, I don't give a shit when people type turrent or use verse as verb in any way other than a poetry battle (I'm lying, I totally fucking do) but learn to use this one word correctly, please..
No, companies that use P2W should not be given a chance!!!
The problem I have with P2W is not so much that it is ripping off players, (Everyone should be warned by now of this business practice.) but that it causes distortion of competition in favour of companies that offer cheaply made games. And even if the game was not lazy designed in the first place the P2W model impacts every aspect of game design in a bad way.
These companies are damaging not only the players but the whole industry. Every P2W game that is successful damages a developer that sticks to a fair payment model, and it is a bad example that will result in more companies turning to the dark side of game design.
Do not support the people that are ruining the genre with bad exploitive games!
Originally posted by remyburke Don't worry OP, you aren't alone. The masses will figure it out eventually as well. Give them time.
No, what you mean is, the tried and true concept of "if enough people say it, it'll be fact regardless of whether it's fact or not" will rear its ugly head and hurt a game that allows you to pay for convenience like a ton of other titles that, incidentally, people also complain about for stupid reasons.
Originally posted by remyburke Don't worry OP, you aren't alone. The masses will figure it out eventually as well. Give them time.
You know im not so sure, so many players and some staff from this site cant get enought of the F2P model, it was clear to me from day one that it is nothing but poison. It has taken what was once a very inexpensive hobby, 15 a month for an MMO that gave you everything the game had to offer to now costing 4, 5 or 10 times that for a game that you want to experience to its fullest.
And people are lining up like sheeps on both sides, the A.D.D. crowd who doesnt commit to anything regardless just plays until the free runs out and to get serious they have to break out some real cash and quit, to the lunatics spending 200 to 300 a month on a game.
You cant make these games work at 15 month and get the whole thing like you used to do for a sub game. I can only hope the market swings back the other way because in reality most people cant afford to play a F2P.
No, companies that use P2W should not be given a chance!!!
The problem I have with P2W is not so much that it is ripping off players, (Everyone should be warned by now of this business practice.) but that it causes distortion of competition in favour of companies that offer cheaply made games. And even if the game was not lazy designed in the first place the P2W model impacts every aspect of game design in a bad way.
These companies are damaging not only the players but the whole industry. Every P2W game that is successful damages a developer that sticks to a fair payment model, and it is a bad example that will result in more companies turning to the dark side of game design.
Do not support the people that are ruining the genre with bad exploitive games!
If people want to spend their money on in game items, I don't think they need to be warned away from doing it. I personally believe its the mooches that sit back and complain non stop that a company has the audacity to charge for stuff are the ones who are the scourge of the gaming community.
if a business charges to much for its product it will run itself out of business, however if there are people that are willing to support that business model so be it. Personally I myself prefer a subscription model with a flat charge that let's me play and acquire all or any content available. It also keeps alot of the mooches away. Unfortunately the freeloading masses have begged for free stuff and forgot to realize it takes money to make this world go round, and nothing in life is truly free.
Originally posted by remyburke Don't worry OP, you aren't alone. The masses will figure it out eventually as well. Give them time.
You know im not so sure, so many players and some staff from this site cant get enought of the F2P model, it was clear to me from day one that it is nothing but poison. It has taken what was once a very inexpensive hobby, 15 a month for an MMO that gave you everything the game had to offer to now costing 4, 5 or 10 times that for a game that you want to experience to its fullest.
And people are lining up like sheeps on both sides, the A.D.D. crowd who doesnt commit to anything regardless just plays until the free runs out and to get serious they have to break out some real cash and quit, to the lunatics spending 200 to 300 a month on a game.
You cant make these games work at 15 month and get the whole thing like you used to do for a sub game. I can only hope the market swings back the other way because in reality most people cant afford to play a F2P.
Dude, people have thrown nearly 2 million dollars at a game that doesn't even have an Alpha version, made by a guy whose last game was a disaster, you're in the wrong genre if seeing people spend money on virtual crap offends you this much that you're resorting to name-calling.
If people want to spend their money on in game items, I don't think they need to be warned away from doing it. I personally believe its the mooches that sit back and complain non stop that a company has the audacity to charge for stuff are the ones who are the scourge of the gaming community.
I decided I wanted to boycott this game when I saw their horrible character models.
I was also surprised at how infuriating I found it to not to be able to choose your own zoom level for combat... never really considered this a feature since virtually every non 2d-scroller in the last 10 years has had it... maybe further back... I remeber being able to zoom in Ragnarok Online...
Fine, give me cosmetics to buy or 10% boosts, not double!!
Was no need to re beyond that.
10% boost isnt pay to win because its OK with you, but double...oh no you di'nt! /wags finger
I'll see one I'm at endgame but I don't see any real pay 2 win in this game. Also, one levels so fast in this game without buying anything in the cash shop that I'm not sure what the problem is. There is nothing gating a player from hitting endgame in a timely manner and I don't see any gear gating tied to the cash shop at endgame
I think a lot of people here need to have PLAYED a true P2W game, where your girlfriend of 5 years spends 2000 of your dollars on R9 in PWI, then you will truely have rage at P2W. but I wouldn't wish that on anybody. P2W can ruin relationships!!! *grumbles about women*
If people want to spend their money on in game items, I don't think they need to be warned away from doing it. I personally believe its the mooches that sit back and complain non stop that a company has the audacity to charge for stuff are the ones who are the scourge of the gaming community.
Totally agree.
Now now, don't be like that. The people who want everything for free are a vital part of why the f2p system works. I remember back in PWI where people were spending $10k in the cash shop to dominate in PvP. Dominate who? Why all these people that wanted to spend nothing... and a few others who only wanted to spend hundreds not thousands in the cash shop.
I am so tired of gaming companies thinking they can make games that require your continual purchase of items, unlocks, skills, etc... to be succesful or even to just enjoy it. Let me BUY the game and enjoy it freely. Sure, item malls may be a great way to fund continual development. Fine, give me cosmetics to buy or 10% boosts, not double!! IMO best item mall is Defiance, it is definately not B2W (Buy To Win).
If we players continue to support this method of B2W, we will continue to see more dissapointing games. This is why I am boycotting Neverwinter by not even creating an account. I don't want to even be a POTENTIAL dollar in their eyes. This is why I have not returned to SWTOR in months. And SWTOR is a game which disgusts me on an even deeper lvl. Not only is their a subscription, but then you are encouraged to spend spend spend in the item mall for packs to get items that idiot players price in the millions (credits). If I am a subscriber, why should I be buying item mall items? Is $15 dollars a month no longer enough for access to obtain everythihng in the game? Because I remember when $8 dollars a month was.
I am gladly willing to spend almost $200 a year (excluding any expansions) on a video game, how is that enough for you stingy publishers? And comment as you will, but don't try to answer my final questions. It simply cannot be resonably answered.
And i will give it a chance and play it for free.
You vote with your wallet & time, and i vote with mine. It is great for them to give out part of their game for free. If you can't enjoy the game without buying items and stuff .. well .... i guess that is too bad for you.
Surely the OP meant buy it and pay a subscription for it instead of having to P2W. I know he doesn't think that a company can stay a float by allowing everyone to keep receiving a service free of charge? There is not a single industry that does this.
You are after all paying for a service with these online MMOs. These companies have to be able to keep the lights on. Pay their employees. Pay for bandwidth and server tech. Pay for advertising, and distribution. Pay to put food on To food on the table for themselves.
Or did you mean literally, that you should only have to have a one time purchase. Because this is not a single player game, but an ongoing continuing type of game that has overhead. MMO are not charities for gaming mooches after all.
A B2P model with a cosmetic/account perk cash shop is a perfect viable and proven model. GW2 alone has proven that.
Wrong. Guild Wars 2 sells boosts of many kinds and you can easily convert real money into in-game gold. Reality is that there has yet to be a non-sub AAA mmo that has zero in-game boosts (that I can think of)
If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
Surely the OP meant buy it and pay a subscription for it instead of having to P2W. I know he doesn't think that a company can stay a float by allowing everyone to keep receiving a service free of charge? There is not a single industry that does this.
You are after all paying for a service with these online MMOs. These companies have to be able to keep the lights on. Pay their employees. Pay for bandwidth and server tech. Pay for advertising, and distribution. Pay to put food on To food on the table for themselves.
Or did you mean literally, that you should only have to have a one time purchase. Because this is not a single player game, but an ongoing continuing type of game that has overhead. MMO are not charities for gaming mooches after all.
A B2P model with a cosmetic/account perk cash shop is a perfect viable and proven model. GW2 alone has proven that.
Wrong. Guild Wars 2 sells boosts of many kinds and you can easily convert real money into in-game gold. Reality is that there has yet to be a non-sub AAA mmo that has zero in-game boosts (that I can think of)
have you played Guild Wars 2? I have like 50 boosts I never used/needed, and the Gold to Gem rate is atrocious. you get next to nothing for your money, you can make so much more just by playing the game. "you can easily convert real money into in-game gold" ha! maybe enough for a couple teleports...
For years, MMO publishers were stuck with a very difficult problem: monthly subscribers flatly resisted any increase in the sub rates, while their shareholders continually demanded better profits.
And then a miracle happened ! All over the internet, gamers started demanding a complete end to all compulsory payments. Gamers wanted to play for FREE. They would grudgingly accept Cash Shops, as long as they could play the games for free.
The game publishers were at their wits end, it looked like a total disaster scenario. But then they saw the fantastic opportunities unfolding before them, and they were delighted !
F2P brought many publishers undreamed-of profits. They couldn't (and still cannot) believe their good fortune. No matter what their Cash Shop models were, it seemed that there was always a group of players showering them with cash...
Now, human beings are naturally curious, so it can be expected that the game publishers will test all the boundaries and limits of Cash Shop pricing. All in the name of Science, of course.
Actually it was game PUBLISHER'S who saw the gigantic profits the eastern PUBLISHER'S were making with F2P models that started to drive the western markets to mimic them.
Once this genie left the bottle there was no looking back, the games now sell non-intrinsic items, these items are digital and can have an unending supply of them, besides the coding that's required, they are selling intellectual property.
Pretty much the developers control there profit margins by adjusting the prices of the items, instead of the uncontrollable of a subscription model.
Make something thats is useful enough and cheap enough and you will get players buying your unlimited supply of ip items. With that you still make money, whereas with a subscription your cash flow is flat, and decreasing.
I do not see how the developers were the driving force for this i see the publishers endless need for profits pushing this more than the players or devs.
While i know there is still a large schism in the player base when it comes to Kickstarter or Indiegogo, this type of game development really does pull the control of greedy publishers and pushes it back into the developers/players hands. Sadly the budgets for alot of these MMO concepts seem to be more than what the public players are willing to generate. I fear 1 or two of the more recent sucessfully "funded" MMO's will end up with a publisher. Once that happens we will see that control shifted back away from dev/player control.
I often see the point being made that no one forces you to buy anything from a cash shop or play a F2P game at all. So don’t complain over companies that offer this.
That is true, on a cognitive level but totally disregards the emotional side of gaming.
Choosing a game and sticking to a game is for the most part an emotional thing. Its much like being fan of a sports team. Playing a mmorpg requires much more commitment than most other genres. It does not make sense to start with a mmorpg if you don’t plan to invest many hours of playtime.
So if you happen to be fan of a club that starts ripping of his loyal fans, you are screwed and with a mmo it is the same.
The relation of between players and developers is not just a commercial relationship but one of loyalty. The players commit themselves to the game and therefore the company should also show some responsibility for its players.
Actually it was game PUBLISHER'S who saw the gigantic profits the eastern PUBLISHER'S were making with F2P models that started to drive the western markets to mimic them.
Only they are NOT mimicking them.
Asian F2P games are making gigantic profits on MICRO-transactions...something I have yet to see in a western F2P game outside of DDO.
The single thing I can say that I just plain cant stand about Neverwinter is the INSANE prices. Once the game hits Asia, with Asian servers I will be playing there.
Why the hell would I pay $30 for a freaking companion when I know damn well that same companion, with the same stats and abilities will be costing around $10 in Asia. It is a VIRTUAL ITEM...it has the same value EVERYWHERE. Pure greed, something I will not support.
Cryptic should know this crap already seeing as how poorly their previous F2P offerings have done.
Comments
People have diffrent definitions of winning. Winning don't have to be formalized and actual beating of your opponent. It does not even have to be formalized in any kind of ranking. For more clarification: how diffrently people see 'winning' or 'power' in games (for some people 'power' does not even have to be connected to combat' in any way) read:
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/03/06/free-for-all-the-continued-standardization-of-selling-power/
I really hate people using these types of arguments.
Plenty of items in F2P are for all intended purposes inacessible because they take an ungodly amount of time to get without paying for them.
Another thing, "pay 2 win", is just paying to win a battle, all games that sell items that give you power are pay 2 win.
When an item allows you to win a battle that would have been lost without buying something in the cash shop, it's buy / pay 2 win.
Any games that sell power are pay 2 win. It's irrelevant if it's PVE or PVP.
In all honesty it should be renamed to P2AF or pay to achieve faster.
or pay to have more toys. Damn that sounds like real life to me. Imagine that.
Please stop using that word incorrectly. Unless you wrote letters to all companies involved, told all your friends and family and generally tried to create a grass-roots movement to shed light on the behavior of cryptic, you didn't boycott anything.
There is a world of difference between a boycott and someone deciding to pass on a game.
The reason it matters is because boycotting something is one of the few effective tools we have as consumers to affect large corporations, and the way everyone uses the word online for the most asinine of dev decisions both cheapens it and turns others off when they even hear it.
Now, I don't give a shit when people type turrent or use verse as verb in any way other than a poetry battle (I'm lying, I totally fucking do) but learn to use this one word correctly, please..
No, companies that use P2W should not be given a chance!!!
The problem I have with P2W is not so much that it is ripping off players, (Everyone should be warned by now of this business practice.) but that it causes distortion of competition in favour of companies that offer cheaply made games. And even if the game was not lazy designed in the first place the P2W model impacts every aspect of game design in a bad way.
These companies are damaging not only the players but the whole industry. Every P2W game that is successful damages a developer that sticks to a fair payment model, and it is a bad example that will result in more companies turning to the dark side of game design.
Do not support the people that are ruining the genre with bad exploitive games!
No, what you mean is, the tried and true concept of "if enough people say it, it'll be fact regardless of whether it's fact or not" will rear its ugly head and hurt a game that allows you to pay for convenience like a ton of other titles that, incidentally, people also complain about for stupid reasons.
You know im not so sure, so many players and some staff from this site cant get enought of the F2P model, it was clear to me from day one that it is nothing but poison. It has taken what was once a very inexpensive hobby, 15 a month for an MMO that gave you everything the game had to offer to now costing 4, 5 or 10 times that for a game that you want to experience to its fullest.
And people are lining up like sheeps on both sides, the A.D.D. crowd who doesnt commit to anything regardless just plays until the free runs out and to get serious they have to break out some real cash and quit, to the lunatics spending 200 to 300 a month on a game.
You cant make these games work at 15 month and get the whole thing like you used to do for a sub game. I can only hope the market swings back the other way because in reality most people cant afford to play a F2P.
If people want to spend their money on in game items, I don't think they need to be warned away from doing it. I personally believe its the mooches that sit back and complain non stop that a company has the audacity to charge for stuff are the ones who are the scourge of the gaming community.
if a business charges to much for its product it will run itself out of business, however if there are people that are willing to support that business model so be it. Personally I myself prefer a subscription model with a flat charge that let's me play and acquire all or any content available. It also keeps alot of the mooches away. Unfortunately the freeloading masses have begged for free stuff and forgot to realize it takes money to make this world go round, and nothing in life is truly free.
Dude, people have thrown nearly 2 million dollars at a game that doesn't even have an Alpha version, made by a guy whose last game was a disaster, you're in the wrong genre if seeing people spend money on virtual crap offends you this much that you're resorting to name-calling.
Was no need to re beyond that.
10% boost isnt pay to win because its OK with you, but double...oh no you di'nt! /wags finger
There is nothing B2W or P2W in Neverwinter.
You fools don't even seem to know what B2W or P2W means.
Totally agree.
I decided I wanted to boycott this game when I saw their horrible character models.
I was also surprised at how infuriating I found it to not to be able to choose your own zoom level for combat... never really considered this a feature since virtually every non 2d-scroller in the last 10 years has had it... maybe further back... I remeber being able to zoom in Ragnarok Online...
I'll see one I'm at endgame but I don't see any real pay 2 win in this game. Also, one levels so fast in this game without buying anything in the cash shop that I'm not sure what the problem is. There is nothing gating a player from hitting endgame in a timely manner and I don't see any gear gating tied to the cash shop at endgame
They're not very good, I agree. Same reason I couldn't get into Lotro. Worst models I've ever seen.
I play MMOs for the Forum PVP
Now now, don't be like that. The people who want everything for free are a vital part of why the f2p system works. I remember back in PWI where people were spending $10k in the cash shop to dominate in PvP. Dominate who? Why all these people that wanted to spend nothing... and a few others who only wanted to spend hundreds not thousands in the cash shop.
And i will give it a chance and play it for free.
You vote with your wallet & time, and i vote with mine. It is great for them to give out part of their game for free. If you can't enjoy the game without buying items and stuff .. well .... i guess that is too bad for you.
I have no problem enjoying free games.
Wrong. Guild Wars 2 sells boosts of many kinds and you can easily convert real money into in-game gold. Reality is that there has yet to be a non-sub AAA mmo that has zero in-game boosts (that I can think of)
If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
have you played Guild Wars 2? I have like 50 boosts I never used/needed, and the Gold to Gem rate is atrocious. you get next to nothing for your money, you can make so much more just by playing the game. "you can easily convert real money into in-game gold" ha! maybe enough for a couple teleports...
I play MMOs for the Forum PVP
Actually it was game PUBLISHER'S who saw the gigantic profits the eastern PUBLISHER'S were making with F2P models that started to drive the western markets to mimic them.
Once this genie left the bottle there was no looking back, the games now sell non-intrinsic items, these items are digital and can have an unending supply of them, besides the coding that's required, they are selling intellectual property.
Pretty much the developers control there profit margins by adjusting the prices of the items, instead of the uncontrollable of a subscription model.
Make something thats is useful enough and cheap enough and you will get players buying your unlimited supply of ip items. With that you still make money, whereas with a subscription your cash flow is flat, and decreasing.
I do not see how the developers were the driving force for this i see the publishers endless need for profits pushing this more than the players or devs.
While i know there is still a large schism in the player base when it comes to Kickstarter or Indiegogo, this type of game development really does pull the control of greedy publishers and pushes it back into the developers/players hands. Sadly the budgets for alot of these MMO concepts seem to be more than what the public players are willing to generate. I fear 1 or two of the more recent sucessfully "funded" MMO's will end up with a publisher. Once that happens we will see that control shifted back away from dev/player control.
Lolipops !
I often see the point being made that no one forces you to buy anything from a cash shop or play a F2P game at all. So don’t complain over companies that offer this.
That is true, on a cognitive level but totally disregards the emotional side of gaming.
Choosing a game and sticking to a game is for the most part an emotional thing. Its much like being fan of a sports team. Playing a mmorpg requires much more commitment than most other genres. It does not make sense to start with a mmorpg if you don’t plan to invest many hours of playtime.
So if you happen to be fan of a club that starts ripping of his loyal fans, you are screwed and with a mmo it is the same.
The relation of between players and developers is not just a commercial relationship but one of loyalty. The players commit themselves to the game and therefore the company should also show some responsibility for its players.
Only they are NOT mimicking them.
Asian F2P games are making gigantic profits on MICRO-transactions...something I have yet to see in a western F2P game outside of DDO.
The single thing I can say that I just plain cant stand about Neverwinter is the INSANE prices. Once the game hits Asia, with Asian servers I will be playing there.
Why the hell would I pay $30 for a freaking companion when I know damn well that same companion, with the same stats and abilities will be costing around $10 in Asia. It is a VIRTUAL ITEM...it has the same value EVERYWHERE. Pure greed, something I will not support.
Cryptic should know this crap already seeing as how poorly their previous F2P offerings have done.