It causes attrition to actually have a viable effect against a larger force if those people cant just be popped right back up after a skirmish.
Skilled players could ambush a zerg and then retreat, forcing them to either continue on weakened or wait for their killed comrades to return (giving the smaller force more time to gather reinforcements).
You've got it backwards. It makes it much easier for the larger force to win. Every time they kill a defender, he can't be rezzed. That causes defenders to be much more cautious (if they even bother trying to defend at all) making it easier for the attackers to break through the gates and advance on the lord.
What about defenders who try to make it into the keep after the siege begins? In DAOC you would often have somebody die outside trying to get in then rez him in over the wall. Without rezzing, he'd have to try running back again. Depending on the keep's location, there might not be time to get there. And he still might die outside again. Once again the lack of rezzing would make it easier for a large attacking force and would change the balance of incentives against people even attempting to defend. That's not what we want in CU.
I'd do it similar GW2, everyone can rez but you have to go up the corpse and it takes like 10 seconds out of combat, 2-3 times longer if you are in combat. Players eventually bleed out and cant be rez'd that way, to avoid players laying around waiting for it.
Mainly just for the convenience without it being something that happens often in the thick of combat.
Originally posted by UOlover Something more creative than any of those choices. I like when Mark says he wants to take risks with his approach to these kind of things.
then read what i posted, it involves much more requirement possible for rezzes and how they can be done.
i didnt talk about the risks in there yet, mainly how it could be managed. the risks are for another thread.
Bowbow, your ideas tend to make rezzing not worth the effort.
Most people that want to make rezzing harder, are making it not worth it... a 10 second cast that is interruptable? come on, you have DAoC in your name, you know no healer will ever accept such a thing.
People should think harder of how a mechanic would actually work out in rvr.
10 second that a healer is rezzing means 10 seconds that he can't spend on healing other members.
And then: the one you're rezzing is completely useless in the fight?
I played a cleric in DAoC, but i'd rather spec gimped smite than have such a frustrating mechanic ;-)
It's apparent that you like zerg vs zerg, and not small group (8vs8) combat. But when you propose a game mechanic it has to be valid in all scenario's.
And why does every thing have to be BSC suddenly? ;-)
Methos, Armsman, EU Excalibur Jager, Infiltrator, EU Excalibur Phos, Cleric, EU Excalibur Mortify, Sorcerer, EU Excalibur
And why does every thing have to be BSC suddenly? ;-)
Yeah seriously. Let's change the things from DAOC that didn't work well. Leave the things that did work the same. We've already had several RvR MMOs that tried to do lots of things differently than DAOC. They didn't turn out well.
And why does every thing have to be BSC suddenly? ;-)
Yeah seriously. Let's change the things from DAOC that didn't work well. Leave the things that did work the same. We've already had several RvR MMOs that tried to do lots of things differently than DAOC. They didn't turn out well.
Perhaps BSC is not necessarily BSC. Sometimes calling a new idea BSC, can also be is a safety mechanism to cloak a new idea from knee-jerk flaming.
This is interesting. To find out how rezzing should work, we should first look at how it doesn't.
For example i remembered in Warhammer that you could rez people up onto walls of keeps that you where defending. I.e. if a keep was under siege the reinforcements could easily get to them by dieing somewhere near the walls.
Personally i thought that was an issue, its not a siege if you can't stop people going into the keep. So personally i think a rezz should at minimum:
1. Occur at place of death.
2. Involve a movement penalty(root) to prevent people slowly inching towards the walls on their gums so to speak.
3. Be a significiant investment for the healer, to help with 2. i.e. discourage pointless rezzing.
Personally i would like to see rezz take a different resource. Lets say you have a "healer", the "healer" uses "mana" for heals and buffs and stuff. But for certain powerful spells, like rezzes he needs a different resource, lets call it "light balls". Now how "light balls" are aquired ... lots of way, could be through casting spells on enemies, friendlies, or simply a time based thing like you aquire 1 "light ball" per minute and can store up to 4 "light balls"(should be different way for different healers, to get more factional diversity).
That way rezz would become more tactical and fights less of a whack-a-mole where people you just offed keep standing up like zombies with the regeneration perk. You also could have powerful spells compete for this secondary resource, i.e. reward people with more heals and stuff for forgoing the option to rezz.
I like the idea of ressing them where they fell to make reinforcement harder. I think using "mana" is fine for the spell, however. I think it's needlessly complicated to have a separate resource for ressing. I think that surely cast time and mana cost can be adjusted to prevent ressing from being a no-brainer rather than casting other spells, such as heals and buffs.
All players should be able to rez their comrades not just the healers.
Oh God no! Rezzing should be the single most specialized skill in the game. I wouldn't mind everyone (or at least several classes) having small heals, but rezzing should be very rare amongst the classes.
I would vote for a rez system quite similar to DAoC's with a twist here and there. Involve souls in the rez sickness part... maybe rez sickness lasts longer and/or is more powerful while your killer is still alive.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
Originally posted by Axxar I like the idea of ressing them where they fell to make reinforcement harder. I think using "mana" is fine for the spell, however. I think it's needlessly complicated to have a separate resource for ressing. I think that surely cast time and mana cost can be adjusted to prevent ressing from being a no-brainer rather than casting other spells, such as heals and buffs.
The problem in warhammer was healer standing on the keepwalls outside LoS/range of the enemies ressing people. It WAS a nobrainer. The reason i didn't just say require LoS to dead player is because its usually pretty easy to LoS the enemies while having a LoS the dead player you want to rez, especially if there is a melee going on below the keep walls.
Don't get me wrong, i was a healer and that was loads of fun, but it turned the battles into a whack-a-mole like i said because with keeps and barricades and stuff you have no way to get to the healers. Its essentially like this:
H ### W:W ### H
With H being healer and W being the close combat classes(lets call em warriors), # would be impassible terrain or simply distance. The ### are about max healing range, theoretically archers could attack the healers but they would need to be ontop of the W brawl and the H could extremely easily LoS them behing some keep tower or stuff.
If in such a situation the healers only need mana to res ... the fights can become extremely drawn out, whack-a-mole essentially. The problem essentially is that once the close combat guys die you can't force the guys on the keep wall into combat, so if they rez the close combat guys as they die they can essentially regroup in the safety of the keep and then storm out again.
One solution would be rez where they die with penalty, another would be only allowing short range rez i guess. Still the whole one healer can bring back a whole field of corpses in a min or two sits sour with me, i got the feeling MJ wanted combat be more decisive. I.e. the looser looses, and the winner wins period. Not some "gee we lost our whole warband defending our keep, meet back at our keep in 5 min all buffed up folks" kind of play.
It causes attrition to actually have a viable effect against a larger force if those people cant just be popped right back up after a skirmish.
Skilled players could ambush a zerg and then retreat, forcing them to either continue on weakened or wait for their killed comrades to return (giving the smaller force more time to gather reinforcements).
You've got it backwards. It makes it much easier for the larger force to win. Every time they kill a defender, he can't be rezzed. That causes defenders to be much more cautious (if they even bother trying to defend at all) making it easier for the attackers to break through the gates and advance on the lord.
What about defenders who try to make it into the keep after the siege begins? In DAOC you would often have somebody die outside trying to get in then rez him in over the wall. Without rezzing, he'd have to try running back again. Depending on the keep's location, there might not be time to get there. And he still might die outside again. Once again the lack of rezzing would make it easier for a large attacking force and would change the balance of incentives against people even attempting to defend. That's not what we want in CU.
Well the defenders would always have an advantage of being within their own territory and therefore closer to any sort of spawn point. Unless of course they build a keep deep in enemy territory, in which case making it incredibly difficult to defend would be a useful safety valve to prevent one realm from eventually taking over the whole map.
You keep thinking in terms of "what happened in DAOC", when you very simply arent going to see the exact same strategies applied regardless of which option is eventually chosen. If the castle is already surrounded, reinforcements from the defending realm would gather and attack the enemy from behind instead of just blindly filtering in one by one. They would besiege the besiegers just like would happen irl.
When the attacking realm has to cover multiple entrances, then their forces would be divided. They'd either have to react to the attack and leave some of those entrances unguarded (allowing other defenders the chance to use the distraction to get inside), or remain split up (easier to break through at any one point).
I'd also like to point out that people should not just instantly die in a second or two. Obviously yeah, if some guy just two shots you and then you have to respawn, that would kind of suck. Let combat be more strategic instead of reflex based, but try letting life and death really matter.
The example of someone suicide running an enemy army alone so they can be rezzed over the walls is exactly what I'd like to see NOT happen. Its absurd.
Originally posted by UOlover Something more creative than any of those choices. I like when Mark says he wants to take risks with his approach to these kind of things.
then read what i posted, it involves much more requirement possible for rezzes and how they can be done.
i didnt talk about the risks in there yet, mainly how it could be managed. the risks are for another thread.
Bowbow, your ideas tend to make rezzing not worth the effort.
Most people that want to make rezzing harder, are making it not worth it... a 10 second cast that is interruptable? come on, you have DAoC in your name, you know no healer will ever accept such a thing.
People should think harder of how a mechanic would actually work out in rvr.
10 second that a healer is rezzing means 10 seconds that he can't spend on healing other members.
And then: the one you're rezzing is completely useless in the fight?
I played a cleric in DAoC, but i'd rather spec gimped smite than have such a frustrating mechanic ;-)
It's apparent that you like zerg vs zerg, and not small group (8vs8) combat. But when you propose a game mechanic it has to be valid in all scenario's.
And why does every thing have to be BSC suddenly? ;-)
Dont forget that rezzing in DAoC was ALSO made for PvE, this is something we wont have to deal in CU.
And as far as old DAoC players wouldnt accept such a thing, well its been clear from the start that this isnt DAoC 2 Everything has to be thought on how it would affect positively or negatively RvR only. There has to be consequences in death, big, small, average, it'll be decided over the next 2 years.
Actually i barely ever zerged, i was a hunter that mainly scouted our frontiers, and helped from a far when fights happened.
And i didnt only suggest BSC stuff, but you have to realise that MJ wants to make a grat game, but he also wants originality in it, so i merely suggested many ways to approach resurrection.
i'm never suggesting things how I WOULD LIKE THEM to be, i just think of many possibilities, whether i like them or not.
It has been clearly stated that death should sting a little, and honestly, it didnt really sting in DAoC. a few minutes of rez sickness was ok for PvE, but when it came to RvR, you could just get back in the fight a LITTLE too easily ( not that much, but too easy nonetheless).
And about the ideas i suggested, of course they would not ALL be implemented, its just different avenues that leads to different resutls.
I'm simply brainstorming, not making my game
Edit : i LOVED DAoC, but i think that eventually more people are gonna fully realise that its not DAoC 2, we refer to it alot, of course, since we all loved it, but the further we are in development the more people will FULLY realise that it will be different in many aspects. some will be in for quite a disappointement eventually.
It WILL be very different
Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC Thurka on WAR
The example of someone suicide running an enemy army alone so they can be rezzed over the walls is exactly what I'd like to see NOT happen. Its absurd.
It doesn't have to be somebody running alone intentionally suiciding. It could be a member of a group who happens to get assisted on and dies while the rest of the group makes it inside. There may not be time for your realm's zerg to get there and kill the attackers outside. But if your group can make it to the lord, you may be able to hold them off long enough for reinforcements to arrive. You should have the chance to rez your fallen group members rather than forcing them to release and run back or log off. It's not absurd. It's more fun. You get the chance to recover from losing a group member and rally back for a win rather than losing that player for 15+ minutes as he tries to run back to you.
If the choice is always only release and run back, people will quit this game by the thousands in the first few months after release because they'll be tired of never getting to participate in fights and sieges after dying. They'll also have much less patience with classes such as archers and veilwalkers and will demand they be nerfed into uselessness.
Edit : i LOVED DAoC, but i think that eventually more people are gonna fully realise that its not DAoC 2, we refer to it alot, of course, since we all loved it, but the further we are in development the more people will FULLY realise that it will be different in many aspects. some will be in for quite a disappointement eventually.
It WILL be very different
I want CU to be different in ways that make it better than DAOC (for instance by not having buff bots). This isn't one of them.
The example of someone suicide running an enemy army alone so they can be rezzed over the walls is exactly what I'd like to see NOT happen. Its absurd.
It doesn't have to be somebody running alone intentionally suiciding. It could be a member of a group who happens to get assisted on and dies while the rest of the group makes it inside. There may not be time for your realm's zerg to get there and kill the attackers outside. But if your group can make it to the lord, you may be able to hold them off long enough for reinforcements to arrive. You should have the chance to rez your fallen group members rather than forcing them to release and run back or log off. It's not absurd. It's more fun. You get the chance to recover from losing a group member and rally back for a win rather than losing that player for 15+ minutes as he tries to run back to you.
If the choice is always only release and run back, people will quit this game by the thousands in the first few months after release because they'll be tired of never getting to participate in fights and sieges after dying. They'll also have much less patience with classes such as archers and veilwalkers and will demand they be nerfed into uselessness.
The Lord?
These are all ideas and concepts that literally have no meaning outside of DAOC specifically.
What if we arent even talking about a keep? What if its a walled player town under siege? You have to get it in your head that this is not DAOC 2 and remove that framework when you consider how potential ideas will interact.
I don't think people should remove the framework of daoc from their mind It's clear DAOC and its success is a MAJOR reason why this concept and kickstarter was launched Ignoring people's opinions about why they think daoc was sooooo fucking special would be foolish at this point Whether you like daoc or like the fact people did or not you need to get off your high horse and respect the opinions of daoc players
I think everyone and their mother KNOWS this game will not be daoc2 but what made daoc great can and SHOULD be an important part of every conversation going forward
Tired of the DAOC BASHING... CU would never be here without daoc, so grow up
What about this: the longer you performed the rez spell, the closer to the rezzer the person being rezzed would reappear and the more health he would have? There would be a minimum casting time of something like 5 seconds. If you fired the rez after 5 seconds, the person would reappear where he died with like 10% health. If you did the maximum cast (say, 20 seconds), he would appear in front of you at 100% health. The power cost could also go up the longer you cast.
These are all ideas and concepts that literally have no meaning outside of DAOC specifically.
What if we arent even talking about a keep? What if its a walled player town under siege? You have to get it in your head that this is not DAOC 2 and remove that framework when you consider how potential ideas will interact.
I wish I knew what the framework was but Mark never got around to revealing much information about it during the 30 days of Kickstarter. The closer it is to DAOC 2 the more I'll like it and the better the chances are that it will be successful and fun. The RvR games that have tried to be very different than DAOC have not been very successful including one Mark created.
It doesn't really matter though. Whatever buildings there are to defend, being able to rez realm mates who die defending or attacking them will be better than not being able to rez them.
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek I don't think people should remove the framework of daoc from their mind It's clear DAOC and its success is a MAJOR reason why this concept and kickstarter was launched Ignoring people's opinions about why they think daoc was sooooo fucking special would be foolish at this point Whether you like daoc or like the fact people did or not you need to get off your high horse and respect the opinions of daoc players
I think everyone and their mother KNOWS this game will not be daoc2 but what made daoc great can and SHOULD be an important part of every conversation going forward
Tired of the DAOC BASHING... CU would never be here without daoc, so grow up
Its not bashing. There are a lot of good ideas and concepts that can be taken from DAOC. However people are getting the overall framework locked inside their mind instead of just those individual concepts.
Certain mechanics interact very differently with one another based on the enviornment overall. You change a few variables and that interaction can be the exact opposite of what it was.
Some DAOC fans arent visualizing ideas relative to each other. They visualize each individual change as it would act if put into the framework of DAOC. Thats just not helpful.
So I hope you can understand why its frustrating to repeatedly hear "no thats a bad idea because it wouldnt have worked in DAOC".
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek I don't think people should remove the framework of daoc from their mind It's clear DAOC and its success is a MAJOR reason why this concept and kickstarter was launched Ignoring people's opinions about why they think daoc was sooooo fucking special would be foolish at this point Whether you like daoc or like the fact people did or not you need to get off your high horse and respect the opinions of daoc players
I think everyone and their mother KNOWS this game will not be daoc2 but what made daoc great can and SHOULD be an important part of every conversation going forward
Tired of the DAOC BASHING... CU would never be here without daoc, so grow up
Its not bashing. There are a lot of good ideas and concepts that can be taken from DAOC. However people are getting the overall framework locked inside their mind instead of just those individual concepts.
Certain mechanics interact very differently with one another based on the enviornment overall. You change a few variables and that interaction can be the exact opposite of what it was.
Some DAOC fans arent visualizing ideas relative to each other. They visualize each individual change as it would act if put into the framework of DAOC. Thats just not helpful.
So I hope you can understand why its frustrating to repeatedly hear "no thats a bad idea because it wouldnt have worked in DAOC".
While I personally agree with Taldier, I am posting here primarily beause this back and forth is what the CU founder's boards will become.
CU development will definitely be inspired by DAoC but as Taldier notes neither can it be chained to DAoC's ghost.
CU will have to be its own game to truely thrive. Otherwise we might as well had a KS to add 15 more Uthgards.
Maybe we need to take a step back from the mechnical side of rezzes. Instead of talking about rezz time in seconds or range in meters, CDs etc, lets talk about the basics. Do we want:
1. Incombat rezz, i.e. rezzes could only be restricted to uncontested areas.
2. Teleport rezz, i.e. rezzing a dead player from outside a fortification to the inside.
3. Rezzing as a healer skill or everyone.
4. Rezzing with or without penalty.
Anyway, how serious do we want death to be? Is it supposed to be a minor inconvinience? Maybe only minor if a healer is there? Or would it be more like EvE, not necessarily item loss or destruction, but a major inconvinience. I mean if a straggler gets caught or focus fired in EvE its very bad, and yet it works out there.
Im not in favor of copying EvEs big death penalty, i think it would be too harsh for a game like this, but neither would i feel ok with the way its handled in WoW or Warhammer. MJ said something about spacing rez points out so people can't rejoin battle too quickly and have defeat be meaningless, too easy rezzing would certainly conflict with that.
Edit: Backer forums will be different, cause we have CSE there to put an end to discussions. Not in the /close thread way, but by saying "folks all of this sounds good, but we decided to do it like this".
Comments
You've got it backwards. It makes it much easier for the larger force to win. Every time they kill a defender, he can't be rezzed. That causes defenders to be much more cautious (if they even bother trying to defend at all) making it easier for the attackers to break through the gates and advance on the lord.
What about defenders who try to make it into the keep after the siege begins? In DAOC you would often have somebody die outside trying to get in then rez him in over the wall. Without rezzing, he'd have to try running back again. Depending on the keep's location, there might not be time to get there. And he still might die outside again. Once again the lack of rezzing would make it easier for a large attacking force and would change the balance of incentives against people even attempting to defend. That's not what we want in CU.
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
Rez needs to be viable
I'd do it similar GW2, everyone can rez but you have to go up the corpse and it takes like 10 seconds out of combat, 2-3 times longer if you are in combat. Players eventually bleed out and cant be rez'd that way, to avoid players laying around waiting for it.
Mainly just for the convenience without it being something that happens often in the thick of combat.
How you want your rezzing?
Lightly poached with a nice buttersauce and some fresh greens and onions.
Can i have a glass of port with that... That would be wonderfull.
This have been a good conversation
Bowbow, your ideas tend to make rezzing not worth the effort.
Most people that want to make rezzing harder, are making it not worth it... a 10 second cast that is interruptable? come on, you have DAoC in your name, you know no healer will ever accept such a thing.
People should think harder of how a mechanic would actually work out in rvr.
10 second that a healer is rezzing means 10 seconds that he can't spend on healing other members.
And then: the one you're rezzing is completely useless in the fight?
I played a cleric in DAoC, but i'd rather spec gimped smite than have such a frustrating mechanic ;-)
It's apparent that you like zerg vs zerg, and not small group (8vs8) combat. But when you propose a game mechanic it has to be valid in all scenario's.
And why does every thing have to be BSC suddenly? ;-)
Methos, Armsman, EU Excalibur
Jager, Infiltrator, EU Excalibur
Phos, Cleric, EU Excalibur
Mortify, Sorcerer, EU Excalibur
this however makes me wanna full spec it :-D
especially the port...
Methos, Armsman, EU Excalibur
Jager, Infiltrator, EU Excalibur
Phos, Cleric, EU Excalibur
Mortify, Sorcerer, EU Excalibur
Yeah seriously. Let's change the things from DAOC that didn't work well. Leave the things that did work the same. We've already had several RvR MMOs that tried to do lots of things differently than DAOC. They didn't turn out well.
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
Perhaps BSC is not necessarily BSC. Sometimes calling a new idea BSC, can also be is a safety mechanism to cloak a new idea from knee-jerk flaming.
Sure DAoC was solid but it wasn't perfect.This is interesting. To find out how rezzing should work, we should first look at how it doesn't.
For example i remembered in Warhammer that you could rez people up onto walls of keeps that you where defending. I.e. if a keep was under siege the reinforcements could easily get to them by dieing somewhere near the walls.
Personally i thought that was an issue, its not a siege if you can't stop people going into the keep. So personally i think a rezz should at minimum:
1. Occur at place of death.
2. Involve a movement penalty(root) to prevent people slowly inching towards the walls on their gums so to speak.
3. Be a significiant investment for the healer, to help with 2. i.e. discourage pointless rezzing.
Personally i would like to see rezz take a different resource. Lets say you have a "healer", the "healer" uses "mana" for heals and buffs and stuff. But for certain powerful spells, like rezzes he needs a different resource, lets call it "light balls". Now how "light balls" are aquired ... lots of way, could be through casting spells on enemies, friendlies, or simply a time based thing like you aquire 1 "light ball" per minute and can store up to 4 "light balls"(should be different way for different healers, to get more factional diversity).
That way rezz would become more tactical and fights less of a whack-a-mole where people you just offed keep standing up like zombies with the regeneration perk. You also could have powerful spells compete for this secondary resource, i.e. reward people with more heals and stuff for forgoing the option to rezz.
Short range on rez is a good idea, it was an issue in keep sieges for sure.
Yeah naez, i must've misread the description honestly. How... I don't know... long day I guess.
Oh God no! Rezzing should be the single most specialized skill in the game. I wouldn't mind everyone (or at least several classes) having small heals, but rezzing should be very rare amongst the classes.
I would vote for a rez system quite similar to DAoC's with a twist here and there. Involve souls in the rez sickness part... maybe rez sickness lasts longer and/or is more powerful while your killer is still alive.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
The problem in warhammer was healer standing on the keepwalls outside LoS/range of the enemies ressing people. It WAS a nobrainer. The reason i didn't just say require LoS to dead player is because its usually pretty easy to LoS the enemies while having a LoS the dead player you want to rez, especially if there is a melee going on below the keep walls.
Don't get me wrong, i was a healer and that was loads of fun, but it turned the battles into a whack-a-mole like i said because with keeps and barricades and stuff you have no way to get to the healers. Its essentially like this:
H ### W:W ### H
With H being healer and W being the close combat classes(lets call em warriors), # would be impassible terrain or simply distance. The ### are about max healing range, theoretically archers could attack the healers but they would need to be ontop of the W brawl and the H could extremely easily LoS them behing some keep tower or stuff.
If in such a situation the healers only need mana to res ... the fights can become extremely drawn out, whack-a-mole essentially. The problem essentially is that once the close combat guys die you can't force the guys on the keep wall into combat, so if they rez the close combat guys as they die they can essentially regroup in the safety of the keep and then storm out again.
One solution would be rez where they die with penalty, another would be only allowing short range rez i guess. Still the whole one healer can bring back a whole field of corpses in a min or two sits sour with me, i got the feeling MJ wanted combat be more decisive. I.e. the looser looses, and the winner wins period. Not some "gee we lost our whole warband defending our keep, meet back at our keep in 5 min all buffed up folks" kind of play.
Well the defenders would always have an advantage of being within their own territory and therefore closer to any sort of spawn point. Unless of course they build a keep deep in enemy territory, in which case making it incredibly difficult to defend would be a useful safety valve to prevent one realm from eventually taking over the whole map.
You keep thinking in terms of "what happened in DAOC", when you very simply arent going to see the exact same strategies applied regardless of which option is eventually chosen. If the castle is already surrounded, reinforcements from the defending realm would gather and attack the enemy from behind instead of just blindly filtering in one by one. They would besiege the besiegers just like would happen irl.
When the attacking realm has to cover multiple entrances, then their forces would be divided. They'd either have to react to the attack and leave some of those entrances unguarded (allowing other defenders the chance to use the distraction to get inside), or remain split up (easier to break through at any one point).
I'd also like to point out that people should not just instantly die in a second or two. Obviously yeah, if some guy just two shots you and then you have to respawn, that would kind of suck. Let combat be more strategic instead of reflex based, but try letting life and death really matter.
The example of someone suicide running an enemy army alone so they can be rezzed over the walls is exactly what I'd like to see NOT happen. Its absurd.
Dont forget that rezzing in DAoC was ALSO made for PvE, this is something we wont have to deal in CU.
And as far as old DAoC players wouldnt accept such a thing, well its been clear from the start that this isnt DAoC 2
Everything has to be thought on how it would affect positively or negatively RvR only. There has to be consequences in death, big, small, average, it'll be decided over the next 2 years.
Actually i barely ever zerged, i was a hunter that mainly scouted our frontiers, and helped from a far when fights happened.
And i didnt only suggest BSC stuff, but you have to realise that MJ wants to make a grat game, but he also wants originality in it, so i merely suggested many ways to approach resurrection.
i'm never suggesting things how I WOULD LIKE THEM to be, i just think of many possibilities, whether i like them or not.
It has been clearly stated that death should sting a little, and honestly, it didnt really sting in DAoC. a few minutes of rez sickness was ok for PvE, but when it came to RvR, you could just get back in the fight a LITTLE too easily ( not that much, but too easy nonetheless).
And about the ideas i suggested, of course they would not ALL be implemented, its just different avenues that leads to different resutls.
I'm simply brainstorming, not making my game
Edit : i LOVED DAoC, but i think that eventually more people are gonna fully realise that its not DAoC 2, we refer to it alot, of course, since we all loved it, but the further we are in development the more people will FULLY realise that it will be different in many aspects. some will be in for quite a disappointement eventually.
It WILL be very different
Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
Thurka on WAR
It doesn't have to be somebody running alone intentionally suiciding. It could be a member of a group who happens to get assisted on and dies while the rest of the group makes it inside. There may not be time for your realm's zerg to get there and kill the attackers outside. But if your group can make it to the lord, you may be able to hold them off long enough for reinforcements to arrive. You should have the chance to rez your fallen group members rather than forcing them to release and run back or log off. It's not absurd. It's more fun. You get the chance to recover from losing a group member and rally back for a win rather than losing that player for 15+ minutes as he tries to run back to you.
If the choice is always only release and run back, people will quit this game by the thousands in the first few months after release because they'll be tired of never getting to participate in fights and sieges after dying. They'll also have much less patience with classes such as archers and veilwalkers and will demand they be nerfed into uselessness.
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
I want CU to be different in ways that make it better than DAOC (for instance by not having buff bots). This isn't one of them.
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
The Lord?
These are all ideas and concepts that literally have no meaning outside of DAOC specifically.
What if we arent even talking about a keep? What if its a walled player town under siege? You have to get it in your head that this is not DAOC 2 and remove that framework when you consider how potential ideas will interact.
It's clear DAOC and its success is a MAJOR reason why this concept and kickstarter was launched
Ignoring people's opinions about why they think daoc was sooooo fucking special would be foolish at this point
Whether you like daoc or like the fact people did or not you need to get off your high horse and respect the opinions of daoc players
I think everyone and their mother KNOWS this game will not be daoc2 but what made daoc great can and SHOULD be an important part of every conversation going forward
Tired of the DAOC BASHING... CU would never be here without daoc, so grow up
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
I wish I knew what the framework was but Mark never got around to revealing much information about it during the 30 days of Kickstarter. The closer it is to DAOC 2 the more I'll like it and the better the chances are that it will be successful and fun. The RvR games that have tried to be very different than DAOC have not been very successful including one Mark created.
It doesn't really matter though. Whatever buildings there are to defend, being able to rez realm mates who die defending or attacking them will be better than not being able to rez them.
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
"Incubated! And then raised, plucked, beheaded, cut up, put onto a grill, and then put onto a bun. Damn! I don't have that much time! Scrambled!"
oh wait you said rezzing not eggs.
Its not bashing. There are a lot of good ideas and concepts that can be taken from DAOC. However people are getting the overall framework locked inside their mind instead of just those individual concepts.
Certain mechanics interact very differently with one another based on the enviornment overall. You change a few variables and that interaction can be the exact opposite of what it was.
Some DAOC fans arent visualizing ideas relative to each other. They visualize each individual change as it would act if put into the framework of DAOC. Thats just not helpful.
So I hope you can understand why its frustrating to repeatedly hear "no thats a bad idea because it wouldnt have worked in DAOC".
While I personally agree with Taldier, I am posting here primarily beause this back and forth is what the CU founder's boards will become.
CU development will definitely be inspired by DAoC but as Taldier notes neither can it be chained to DAoC's ghost.
CU will have to be its own game to truely thrive. Otherwise we might as well had a KS to add 15 more Uthgards.
Maybe we need to take a step back from the mechnical side of rezzes. Instead of talking about rezz time in seconds or range in meters, CDs etc, lets talk about the basics. Do we want:
1. Incombat rezz, i.e. rezzes could only be restricted to uncontested areas.
2. Teleport rezz, i.e. rezzing a dead player from outside a fortification to the inside.
3. Rezzing as a healer skill or everyone.
4. Rezzing with or without penalty.
Anyway, how serious do we want death to be? Is it supposed to be a minor inconvinience? Maybe only minor if a healer is there? Or would it be more like EvE, not necessarily item loss or destruction, but a major inconvinience. I mean if a straggler gets caught or focus fired in EvE its very bad, and yet it works out there.
Im not in favor of copying EvEs big death penalty, i think it would be too harsh for a game like this, but neither would i feel ok with the way its handled in WoW or Warhammer. MJ said something about spacing rez points out so people can't rejoin battle too quickly and have defeat be meaningless, too easy rezzing would certainly conflict with that.
Edit: Backer forums will be different, cause we have CSE there to put an end to discussions. Not in the /close thread way, but by saying "folks all of this sounds good, but we decided to do it like this".