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We've removed the healer class - What about the tank as well?
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All dps?
-or-
All hybrid healer/tank/dps?
And.....because GW2 doesn't have healers.....why does that mean they have been 'removed'?
Seems to me NW has a healer. Looks like they haven't gone anywhere.
Healers and tanks have their place in pvp done right.
This is exactly the problem with the system. Roles by themeselves shouldnt make one more important than the other, it should be the player himself. Thats why GW2 is such a fantastic pve game, you are set apart by actual skill and not a role.
I just think that people who say this kinda stuff are selfish players. Why should a player be punsihed by liking dps style gameplay?
I have played every game you mention and I tend to disagree with you...and your evident elitism. Ignoring the second part of my statement I disagree with you completely about EVE. They use stealth bombers (rogues), carriers (support/cc) I can't remember the bigger boats (been awhile and I have TBI, so meh) but they most definitely build for tanking and pure damage. So in that regard, you are full of crap at the least.
The trinity works for people that like working as a team to accomplish something. The big issue I see is trying to make one toon or type of toon that can both PvE and PvP equally well. To my way of thinking, a tank has really no place in PvP. They are the last toon targeted and for good reason, they generally do crap damage.
Basically, leave PvE with the trinity, and figure out something else for PvP. This is coming from a guy that plays PvE/PvP PC, consoles, PnP you name it I game it.
I don't hate on innovation, but lets not remove the roles and team from RPG games please.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
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On the other side you could explain it like this:
"in a cookie cutter themepark MMO you can't do sh*t if you don't have a group to fall back on."
Multiplayer does NOT mean that you are forced to grouphug 100% of the time. It just means a lot of players on 1 single server.
Blizzard has brainwashed you all....
I take it you don't take a sh*t with your family in the toilet room to hold your hand.
Although you have some weirdo's.....
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Once again, another person looking to do away with roles because it's too hard for them to find a group.
Sorry it's such an inconvenience to get your dungeon run going but these types of suggestions do nothing to improve game play.
Unfortunately, some developers are attempting to attract players like the OP by continuing to strip away core elements of the MMO genre in favor of convenience.
Even more unfortunate is the fact that the players who think it's such a good idea to remove these classes really don't even like MMO's but instead of finding another genre, they bitch and moan about being inconvenienced by the game play mechanics that the genre was built on.
Go play an FPS or single player RPG. There are TONS of those games out there and none of them require you to wait for a tank or healer.
You sir, are also brainswashed by Blizzard by the fact that you think a MMO MUST be designed around a healer/tank/dps class group doing all content.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Really! did i miss the news that MMO's have removed the healing class.
You sir have no idea what you're talking about. Roles like tanks and healers were around long before WoW. I realize that you probably started playing MMO's when WoW came out so I'll give you a pass.
My first MMOs were UO and EQ, tuvm, but I think it's a shame that you can't think outside the themepark cookie cutter template.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
The reason I keep playing LOL and find it so fun is the paper-rock-scissors-endlessly of it all. So many random outcomes for party composition and how those parties play out against each other. I have gotten better at predicting which team will "win" based on the 5v5 but am still very often surprised when the outcome goes completely against what I expect.
On the subject at hand. People grr about the holy trinity and all that but it does bring a sense of being "needed" for what you bring to the table. That said I do like GW2 and still have been playing it but ironically given the subject of this, I like to be a tank most of all. In GW2 it is fairly hard to be in any way a reliable tank in any traditional sense. The closest I come to it is with my Necromancer built to be a brick wall.
Eh I think the holy trinity is here to stay in one form or another, at least until some game company hires me to setup a system for them.
Yeah, and while we are at it. Let's just have one type of weapon and armor as well.
How far will this dumbing down of MMOs go?
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As long as players keep subbing on such games.
If the income is rising/steady, then the ppl behind those games will keep thinking they are doing a good job. Money says all.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
/golf clap
Once again, my argument is not really about keeping everything the same but more about people like the OP bitching about roles because he / she can't put together a group in a timely manner.
We've seen developers attempt to remove the trinity but it's proven to be bad for long term PvE game play.
Find a better solution to tanks and healers and I'll certainly listen but I have yet to see a viable alternative.
I honestly love playing a healer type role in games.
More to the point though I'd rather not necessarily classes to remain, but specialization. Homogenization of player roles and experience means it caters to a very finite play style in the game and that means a lot fewer people are really even getting what they want out of it.
Take Planetside 2 for example. It might fundamentally be a shooter. No matter which class you play, you're going to be shooting a gun at something.
However the game also has the variances it introduces via the classes. Each one has a unique mechanic and access to particular gear that enables a slightly different style of play, and consequently lets multiple kinds of players find their own niche.
I'll also use it as an example of what I don't like about classes though, and that's the rigid segregation of game mechanics.
While game balance is a valid concern and somewhat a primary reason to do so, I preferred it more in the original Planetside where you were effectively building classes for yourself based off the combination of armor and gear you picked. It still enforced the notion of player specialization, as you couldn't pick up and do everything at once, but you could kit out to have a setup for a particular task at any given moment.
It'd require a different kind of game really. As long as you're talking about running through games where there is only one solution (must do X to win) you are going to have this issue.
It's at this point that another reference might be good by citing Deus Ex and the reason it was heralded as such a good and more so unique game. It was an FPS where shooting people wasn't the only way to win.
It wasn't by eliminating the challenge of the game, it was by presenting the challenge as a puzzle with multiple approaches. Machines to hack, guards to trick, trap, and distract, etc. You could specialize yourself in different ways to pull off a very different approach and experience to the title.
This is also why Deus Ex Invisible War earned plenty of complaints when it came out, people saying it had lost much of it's flexibility and become more simply a shooter.
As long as the only way to beat a dungeon or complete a quest hinges on you killing a monster or interacting with a few objects, you are not going to have any practical application found in rearranging classes. The most you get is a simplified gameplay experience as you're still doing the same thing as you'd otherwise be doing, only now it's with a few other abilities.
So rather than adding or cutting player choice from the classes they play, there should probably be more emphasis put into giving them more choice in how they can interact with the game using those classes.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
How about we remove the DPS class and force those players to play healers and tanks?
But on a serious note, remove the tanky classes and healers is a big mistake. GW2 as an example, where the open world raid content has devolved into "throw players at it until it dies" and group instancing is based on having to heal yourself trough some means.
Games that makes one role more important that others arent doing it right if you ask me. There are plenty of games out there where the DPS role is just as important as the healer and tank role. A majority of the playerbase likes to play dps classes, so they are easier to come by for the casual player and PUGs, but that does not mean they are less important.
The major selling point of an MMO over other games is the cooperative nature of the gameplay. Removing the varied classes and roles subtracts from this, and as mentioned previously in this thread, we should go the other way, add more options, more variations.
And as for the roles of Tank and Healer in pvp, take DaoC as a prime example. There your tank could protect your dps or healers, preventing enemies from reaching them, or shield and bodyblocking blows for them. I played a both a healer and a tank there, and as the healer there was nothing i loved more than a highly skilled tank.
In my opinion, specifically in PvE, the trinity is the most dumbed down that MMO combat can get. I still like playing healers, but I'm not oblivious to the idea that my role is far less complicated and interesting in WoW than it is in a game like GW2 where I often play a support heavy elementalist.
Ok guys, we all have 1 role. You make sure you keep agro. You make sure you do dps. You make sure you heal. Every once min a while, move to the side when there is a telegraphed move.
Having your role decided by the devs is as dumbed down as it gets. I think part of the reason that people hate other systems outside of the trinity so much is because they like being assigned a single task instead of many. It's easier on their brains.
Yes I understand that but surely not all devs must be into making hamburgers and fries, surely there must be some who wants to make filet mignon?
Why do we have so many other industries which have everything from premium wares to trash, cheap knockoffs where is in MMOs we only have the latter?
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MMOs done away with the healer class? SINCE WHEN??!!? Just because ONE MMO did it (guild wars 2) doesn't mean the whole genre did it. And for the most part, people aren't raving about guild war 2's PvE or PvP.
Anyways, back to the topic: Tanks - I think they are fine. Just make them super utility base (kind of like a constant buffer) and they can be efficient in pvp as well.
Edit: And on that note, if you want to do away with tanks, and you can come up with a fun, efficient way to do it, then by all means go right ahead!
Explain to me how having three roles is more dumbed down than having only two (dmg and support). Contrary to popular belief, trinity based games can, and frequently do, have hybrid classes which can do more than one thing. Off-tanks can also DPS. Secondary healers can often either CC or DPS and so on.
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When and which game, tell me so that i can get a few laughts.
I like how you people always forget about control roles.
Explain to me why you think the number of developer defined roles is the determining factor when considering whether or not the gameplay is dumbed down. If anything, you can say that GW2 does not have any defined roles at all and has an infinite amount of roles. That is a lot more than 3.
I understand the urge to remove roles from MMORPGs but I feel that doing so results in classes becoming more and more generic, which I find uninteresting. I think the key is not so much removing roles but making them "nice to have" rather than "need to have." Personally, I have run many dungeons, instances, etc. without balanced teams and even leveled through most of EQ back in the day with no real tank in our group using crowd control and creativity. I think roles become more "essential" in gear-grinding hard mode content, which for me holds little interest anyway.