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We've removed the healer class - What about the tank as well?
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I posted some of my favorite support builds for GW2...you can be plenty tanky AND a damn good healer with a guardian and an staff elementalist...
DPS is king only in CoF path 1 and PvE outside of arah.
The trinity is not dead...devs are simply tweaking it. We've seen it in GW2, TERA, and Neverwinter so far...expect to see more and more.
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
My email must be broken because I didn't get the memo that healers have been removed from mmorpg's. Is Blizzard aware of this news?
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
I'll quote Bartle directly as I agree completely with his view of the tank and the trinity:
"This doesn't make a great deal of sense in gameplay terms: the healer is redundant (they're basically just armour for the tank), the premiss is unrealistic ("I'll hit the guy in the metal suit who isn't hurting me, rather than the ones in the cloth robes who are burning my skin off"), it doesn't work for player versus player combat (because players don't go for the guy in the metal suit) and it doesn't scale (a battle with 1,000 fighters on either side — how many tanks do you need?). Don't get me wrong, it can be a lot of fun, but it's a dead end in design terms." - Richard Bartle
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I am 45 years old and it took me 15 years to realize that order is making gameplay stale and predictable, combined with scripting AI instead of real AI thats what makes most Group PvE boring.. I think going a less predictable route as in GW2 will turn out a possitive thing in the end, tough sadly GW2 fails in the AI department.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
What the hell are you talking about lol, Tera uses the trinity to full effect. Tera has nothing in common with anything GW2 does where the trinity is concerned. As for Neverwinter, try doing "crazy dragon" or a "clock tower" run without a healer, Neverwinter is trinity based to an extent and nothing like the terrible system GW2 has but it's not as trinity dependent as GW2.
We get it, you think GW2 is the best thing since sliced bread but don't put games that are trinity based in the same category as GW2. GW2 might be tweaking it but the other games you mentioned have not, if anything MMO's are not going down the GW2 route, they have seen what a mess lack of trinity can be.
Roles are for roleplayers.
I prefer the non-rp servers.
You can tweek or even wholesale change the trinity but you still need roles.
You don't need to be limited to 3 roles. You can add controllers, buffers, debuffers, interrupters, all kinds of roles if you want.
You don't have to have roles strongly coupled to classes. There is no reason people shouldn't be able to switch roles on the fly.
You don't need to have all your roles strictly separated. A character can fill more than one role at a time.
Given the previous statement, I strongly believe that DPS should not be separated from any other potential roles. Everyone should bring dps and no class should specialize in only dps. "Every Marine a Rifleman" Same here, every class a dpser. Your role is then what you bring in addition to dps. That is just my opinion though.
There is a lot that could be done to change the trinity that could make it much better. Change it a little or replace it with something completely different but you have to leave something in its place when you are done. Throwing the trinity out the window and replacing it with nothing only gives you chaos and fights that devolve into total cluster****s. It is too bad GW2 had to sacrifice itself to teach us that.
Imagine if GW2 had Neverwinter's combat system.
All die, so die well.
Fuck you
your a bitch
i slept with your momma last night you fucktard
come at me bro.
these are what we call "Taunts"
which is what is commonly seen in tanking classes. The person you quoted is still hung on the terminology that has been misused. For a while people call the tanking mechanics "THREAT"
but its also was once called "HATE" as well, hince the name "AGGRO"
DPS and Healers provide Threat, but the Tank lore wise provides threat as well as Hate. Same as in PvP against real intelligence, not AI.
like in my other quote I posted toward you a few pages ago using Rift's PvP.
people can choose to ignore the Melee classes all that want like the Warrior, but they don't, because the Warrior is a (HEAVY ARMOR/ HARD TO KILL/ MELEE FIGHTER/ TRYING TO KILL YOU/ PREVENTING YOU FROM BEATING HIS-HER TEAM) sounds just like the PvE warrior tank as well. Because they are the same. The tank in PvP is Melee fighters who build up emotional hate and threat from the enemie's mind. They control the field this way. People turn their attention to them because they racking p kills and causing control. Again check out some Vanilla Rift PvP discussions or videos . The proof is right there. This happens in all PvP as well. The Melee fighters and healers in PvE always hold the most threat/hate/aggro on mobs, and the same applies in PvP.
so no, it's not dumb AI. It's more real than people seem to realize, like that person in your quote.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
No it's dumb AI. And in RL it's still dumb. People who are smart will go for the ones they think are the most dangerous, and/or the ones that can get people out in the field again, or the easiest.
Any army/team/individual focusing on the person trying to get their attention rather than who they think is the real threat will lose.
Yes it happens a lot in RL, but they are dumb.
You're talking about two different things there. Threats/Aggro and a heavily armored warrior. The former is the mechanics behind who and what a mob attacks. The later is a physical presence and their ability on the battlefield. In your examples throughout your post, you seem to indicate that all creatures, humanoid or otherwise, not only comprehend the threat or taunt but are equally provoked by it. The angered rat that is getting stabbed by one person and assaulted with expletives from the other is going to lash out at the one with the
As for taunts on the PVP battlefield and building up emotional hate during the conflict, I'd say that would be the rare exception as in most MMOs there is no connection between the character and his rants in the chat box. In many, the two sides cannot even interact outside of a few choice emotes, again, rarely seen during the conflict.
You're going into abstracts that include metagaming, propaganda and politics which are undeniably present in PVP warfare but are irrelevant to the mechanics of the trinity.
As for Bartle's familiarity with the terminology, mechanics and their origins, I don't share your sentiments but that's a conversation for another thread.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Yes that’s right, a fighter in PvE should work the same way as a in PvP. Of course it’s a good tactic to put the armoured guys in the front and keep your healers and mages concealed in the back. But to be honest it’s really hard to pull of in PvP while your opponents constantly try to flank you and you are moving around yourself all the time.
If a fighter in PvP would really work like a tank in PvE he would have a skill that forces every member of the opposing team to only target him while making it impossible for them to target his team mates.
I think this is a problem of definitions. To me a tank is not only someone with lots of armour but someone who can control aggro.
A fighter is normally some sort of a noble knight or a barbarian dude. I just can’t think of him as someone who shouts curse words non stop and insults everyone’s mothers. If someone is coming at you to chop your head of with an axe, we are fare beyond the point where calling him names would change anything.
The opponent I get mad about is rather the sneaky guy who constantly one-hits me from behind then the fighter.
What you describe is really bad pvp. Someone who goes hunting a single player, instead of helping the team, is just a really bad team player.
No healers No tanks.....at the firsts weeks i loved it !!!
Then i started to miss healers and playing a healer.
We are strange creatures when playing games...for years we whined no MORE HEALERS AND TANKS, and then after a few weeks....you start to think the oposite again :P
I disagree. Whoever REQUIRES a healer or a tank in Gw2 group is a newb. I suppose you are refering to Gw2 since its the only game that has succesfully moved away of the holy trinity. You can't handle the dynamic combat? In which your armor is a non factor and your evasive abilities as a person - not skills - define your longevity? Well sir, you can go back to your piss poor button mashing MMO or w/e. Or you know, you can get some skill and put some effort instead of just mash those 3-4 rows of skills :U
I agree. Lets have World of Rogue craft!
Finally push it over the border! Everyone already plays rogues! OH I got a great Idea! Lets make the game completely fair, one class every one has the same weapons, will have 15 or so weapons that randomly spawn and lets set it in a military setting. Wait is that COD....
What we need is classless skill system with caps. You can be a super healer and a bad cook or a ok healer and an ok cook or whatever. Bring back that SWG class system before the NGE and CU. Now that was a system!
Why don't we just remove all classes? I mean, isn't that what we really want? Hell, remove all characters too! We can just open up a list of dungeons or quests, or whatever and click the 'complete' button and claim our prizes! No longer do we actually need to do anything at all in video games! I think it's a great idea! No more losing! Yay!
If the best you can point to is Guild Wars 2 when talking about the no healer/tank concept, then you are wrong. There is nothing challenging about that game. Maybe for solo MMOers who cannot tackle real content, but for real gamers....not a chance.
People love playing healers and tanks. They love having a responsibility in a group. That is what makes groups great, and great grouping is what makes a great MMO. There is a reason why every single person on this board plays every MMO that comes out....because none of them have any staying power. Everquest and WOW had that, the rest of the solo MMOs do not and one of the main reasons is because combat is too simple.
Having well defined classes and group roles means you can actually develop content. There is a reason why a game like EQ or WOW keep on releasing expansion after expansion.....and guess what, people PAY for those. Because they can develop well structured content in a timely manner.
I will say this. If they re-released Everquest with all of its expansions but used a next generation graphics engine but kept all the original gaming mechanics pre-mercs, you would play it. Everyone on this board would play it. You would play it and finally say, "well it's about time". And they do not even have to have a sandbox. EQ is the original themepark MMO, but because they have well structured group roles, they developed massive amounts of content while games like Guild Wars 2 scratch their head and try to come up with yet another zerg fest raid.
Oh, a real gamer. Finally, there is someone to tell all of the pretend/awful gamers how it really is! Everquest and WoW were the only real games where combat wasn't too simple! I especially love the parts where you say Everquest mechanics were the best mechanics ever devised and that GW2 is struggling to come out with content.
I think a lot of people feel like removing classes would be a step in the right direction. TSW, AC or UO are some solid examples of classless systems. I would be completely ok with an MMORPG focusing on not having classes or a trinity a la UO.
But it doesn't have to be the base of MMO combat! Nothing says trinity is mandatory, only, so far, great majority of MMORPGs have used it.
You can have heavily armored melee roles (just like in GW1), and they can CC, apply pressure and block people and projectiles and it wouldn't be a tank but something much, much BETTER. Something that makes sense. Something that does not trivialize combat.
And like you've seen, it is absurd to have the trinity applied to modern combat. I don't want to see a guy, in a tanktop, with a sledgehammer "holding aggro" and, not using cover or anything, but soaking the damage while the rest of his group is shooting the enemy through him with M16s. Yes, I know its a game, but that shit just ain't right.
Can you imagine just how much a metagame can change with just implementing projectile blocking: No more shooting targets through allies or enemies. Simple yet very powerful mechanic, no?
TSW and SWTOR had a chance to do something different, but they chickened out and played it safe. Now I'm shooting enemies with a laser rifle that is seemingly as effective as a slingshot. That is if my character could hit even the broad side of a barn. Some hero soldier...
It makes me sad.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
What is the problem? You can always add some sci-fi elements to make it sound ok. Something like "nanites inside repair the damage fast" ... it is just dressing.
Now i am not opposed to interesting combat mechanics .. but there is no reason to eliminate ideas just because it does not sound realistic.
Wait... what game removed the healer class? The only game that really removed the trinity was GW2 which proved that it was NOT a great idea at all. If anything mmos started taking healers back to their support routes, being able to do other things while using heals, not just being the heal bot games had made them to be in the past.
I have no clue where you got that MMos have removed the class from. People enjoy being supportive and the support role is important to have in a game, even if it can be changed up a bit to be more dynamic and fit in the DnD style of things, not only healing but providing damage and support for the group.
No. I'm not opposed to it either, but trinity is already a perversion of combat, and it only makes it worse when it strikes closer to home - when applied to modern combat. It is hard suspend my belief when the game insults my intelligence.
My main point is still that trinity trivializes combat; makes it easy and formulaic.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky