Its as simple as this. There are too many mmos on the market and too many publishers spending millions of dollars to try to be like Blizzard. Only it will not happen and they go F2P only because there are too many MMOs on the market for the amount of people playing MMOs. It also does not help that the MMO population is at best stagnate and more than likely dropping. What will happen is that these MMOs that went F2P just to recoup their millions of dollars and when they find out it will take several years at best to do it and they are so in debt the publisher will shut down shutting down the MMO. This is what is needed for the MMO industry as a whole, games need to be shut down that are not profitable and few MMOs need to be on the market. This will happen because the current path is not sustainable.
If anything, MMOs die so fast because they release with a P2P model. The most recent examples are SWTOR and TSW which lost record numbers of people faster than any MMOs before them.
No, they didn't. Even FTP MMOs die quickly. For themeparks you get the most money you can by launching first as P2P to make money off box sales, then release FTP for some rehyped press and to get people playing again.
Monthly fees have been fine for the vast majority of MMO gamers since the genre first came into existence. People were okay even paying by the minute so long as the game is good. Let's blame this on bad game design and bad games, not billing. If something is good, people pay for it.
Oh my!!
First off, people were ok paying subs at the start , BECAUSE THEY HAD NO OTHER CHOICE!! Yes my choice is pay or not play......hmm I guess I will play. I remember my first MMO E and B. I ended up cancelling my subscription after 5 or 6 months because I felt I wasn't playing the game enough to justify that money. It always happens after the initial rush wears off. I eventually came back because I missed the game. The point is I gave up a lot of time I could have played because of sub costs. And the game ended up being one of the first to shut down because of lost subscribers. If F2P had been an option then that game might still be around today.
And I noticed this fact in my first MMO!! What are MMO devs supposed to do! Keep spending millions of dollars until they create a game that you like and will pay 15 per month in perpetuity?? Or try to appeal to the most people possible so that everyone gets a chance to play their game and see if they like it?
No lets put the blame where it belongs. On P2P fanatics who refuse to support their own games. And that is you!
Hey Bones,
Its not P2P. Games are not free, and MMOs need consistently operational cost to keep playing. Something F2P will never get you cannot make enough money consistently to pay your operating cost period. F2P will bring down many publishers in the near future. You can take that to the bank. There are just too many MMOs and F2P will do nothing but bring alone the enviable which is games shutting down faster because too much money is spent creating a game for little or no return on investment.
Have you noticed how there are hundreds of MMO but they all die off in a matter of months.
Have you noticed that people jump from MMO to MMO.
Have you noticed how communities in MMO are dead, no one really gives a damn anymore.
Have you noticed how you seem to level to the cap in a matter of weeks.
In a F2P MMO all the freeloaders bail the ship once they hit the paywall after a few weeks, the ones who get tired of having to pay to progress bail the ship a few weeks after, and the whales is all that's left, but they jump ship too once they realise they're competing against themselves and no longer have a monetary edge over freeloaders.
As a result, no one joins older F2P, since they would need to spend hundreds of dollars to compete with the whales. The MMO simply die.
As a result the quality of the MMO goes down too, since the companies make dying MMO after dying MMO, to rake in cash from the whales.
In China MMo last a couple of months, and they shut them down. This is the future of F2P MMO, completely meaningless casino adventures. Congorats.
Actually very MMO's have actually been shut down.
Many do shrink do levels of 50-500k which is a reasonable level for most games, it is not reasonable to expect them to have sustained millions of subs.
People didn't give a damn in most p2p MMO's, reference WoW.
People jumped from MMO to MMO in p2p as well.
So the entirety of your post is factually wrong and complete hyperbole. We've come to expect that from your posts though.
edit - f2p with cs have been around since before UO. It has shown it's longevity and success.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I agree with the OP. I think that players have no sense of investment with a F2P and to some extent B2P game. It makes them less likely to have loyalty towards a game and leads to a lot of game hopping. This leads to shallow communities. It gives the MMO a more game feeling and less of a world feeling...
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
Have you noticed how there are hundreds of MMO but they all die off in a matter of months.
Yes I have noticed there are hundreds of MMO's, no I have only read people posting MMO's are dying. And of course seen the games that actually closed servers but that's just a very tiny % of total MMO's.
Have you noticed that people jump from MMO to MMO.
Yeah not so difficult to understand with F2P games, where with a P2P MMO people are often more devoted to the game or scared to not to play due to the sub fee loss if not playing.
Have you noticed how communities in MMO are dead, no one really gives a damn anymore.
No not really noticed this because there are thousands of guilds around. I do agree the random mainly solo socializer has lesser means to really need other people thus resulting in becoming more solo oriented because the game doesn't encourage true communication.
Have you noticed how you seem to level to the cap in a matter of weeks.
Nothing really new we had this in the old, only thing is it's even more easy these day's. Yet I still am able to spend allot of time before hitting cap lvl in even the linear themepark games. Going into my 3rd month in 2 day's in Neverwinter with one character level 50 another one level 41. Sure I could have been cap level with my main toon but I am never in a rush with games and besides that I often only have a few hours during the week with some exceptions in hte weekend mostly sunday, depending on the weather outside.
In a F2P MMO all the freeloaders bail the ship once they hit the paywall after a few weeks, the ones who get tired of having to pay to progress bail the ship a few weeks after, and the whales is all that's left, but they jump ship too once they realise they're competing against themselves and no longer have a monetary edge over freeloaders.
Feel it's just your perception, doesn't make it wrong nor right but just what you are seeing.
As a result, no one joins older F2P, since they would need to spend hundreds of dollars to compete with the whales. The MMO simply die.
That only counts towards the "I want it now and want it all crowd"
As a result the quality of the MMO goes down too, since the companies make dying MMO after dying MMO, to rake in cash from the whales.
Company's don't make dying MMORPG's, but then again you already should have known this..... Perhaps you OP are very young and perhaps have no understanding that company's will go for profit, the utcome how ever is sort of a bet and can often never be predicted in this genre.
In China MMo last a couple of months, and they shut them down. This is the future of F2P MMO, completely meaningless casino adventures. Congorats.
I guess you missed seeing many new upcoming MMO's trying to be different or expand on what we have or rebuild the old into the new.
As I told many times it's the "I WANT IT ALL AND WANT IT NOW CROWD" that is destroying this genre more so then any company could ever do. These folks complain about cash shops being to expensive even though they don't really need the items from a cash shop but just because they feel entitled to have it all.......and even for free...They are afraid that another person might be way ahead in skills and is unable to catch up, which already shows they lack the understanding that everyone eventually is able to reach cap level and with time has the means to acquire those tier1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8 or purple's armor/weapons/items.
Anyway sorry OP I do not agree with you, it's generally speaking the players who let MMO's die fast, but not for the reason given in OP, but pure because they want it all and want it even for free for the most part.
Recent years have proved People will play mediocre F2P games till they hit the pay wall then move on to the next over mediocre P2P or even a good P2P game that lacks content and usually a direction for endgame.
So yes F2P games have caused people to move away from P2P games but because the developers of P2P games haven't risen their game to keep people subbed and probably won't when it's cheaper and potentially more profitable to go F2P instead.
Many are throw away lobby games now. You see it on here all the time, people wanting everything to be instanced, lobby based, not having to run/walk anywhere, matchmakers for groups/dungeons/raids, everything to be instanced, solo content, 2 people 'raids'......People will tell you that this is what people want, that it is great. Payment model doesn't even matter, 90+% of these games people play and throw away, regardless of model, which people will also tell you is great.
A MMORPG is not supposed to be a throw away, no player investment lobby game. The definition is not changing, just what people are trying to pass off for a mmo is VERY borderline. The line has been getting blurred, and the genre is suffering for it imo.
Hopefully some of the new development cycle content that has a increased focus on sandbox content, to go along with themepark content will be better and help things out some.
Have you noticed how there are hundreds of MMO but they all die off in a matter of months.
Yes I have noticed there are hundreds of MMO's, no I have only read people posting MMO's are dying. And of course seen the games that actually closed servers but that's just a very tiny % of total MMO's.
Have you noticed that people jump from MMO to MMO.
Yeah not so difficult to understand with F2P games, where with a P2P MMO people are often more devoted to the game or scared to not to play due to the sub fee loss if not playing.
Have you noticed how communities in MMO are dead, no one really gives a damn anymore.
No not really noticed this because there are thousands of guilds around. I do agree the random mainly solo socializer has lesser means to really need other people thus resulting in becoming more solo oriented because the game doesn't encourage true communication.
Have you noticed how you seem to level to the cap in a matter of weeks.
Nothing really new we had this in the old, only thing is it's even more easy these day's. Yet I still am able to spend allot of time before hitting cap lvl in even the linear themepark games. Going into my 3rd month in 2 day's in Neverwinter with one character level 50 another one level 41. Sure I could have been cap level with my main toon but I am never in a rush with games and besides that I often only have a few hours during the week with some exceptions in hte weekend mostly sunday, depending on the weather outside.
In a F2P MMO all the freeloaders bail the ship once they hit the paywall after a few weeks, the ones who get tired of having to pay to progress bail the ship a few weeks after, and the whales is all that's left, but they jump ship too once they realise they're competing against themselves and no longer have a monetary edge over freeloaders.
Feel it's just your perception, doesn't make it wrong nor right but just what you are seeing.
As a result, no one joins older F2P, since they would need to spend hundreds of dollars to compete with the whales. The MMO simply die.
That only counts towards the "I want it now and want it all crowd"
As a result the quality of the MMO goes down too, since the companies make dying MMO after dying MMO, to rake in cash from the whales.
Company's don't make dying MMORPG's, but then again you already should have known this..... Perhaps you OP are very young and perhaps have no understanding that company's will go for profit, the utcome how ever is sort of a bet and can often never be predicted in this genre.
In China MMo last a couple of months, and they shut them down. This is the future of F2P MMO, completely meaningless casino adventures. Congorats.
I guess you missed seeing many new upcoming MMO's trying to be different or expand on what we have or rebuild the old into the new.
As I told many times it's the "I WANT IT ALL AND WANT IT NOW CROWD" that is destroying this genre more so then any company could ever do. These folks complain about cash shops being to expensive even though they don't really need the items from a cash shop but just because they feel entitled to have it all.......and even for free...They are afraid that another person might be way ahead in skills and is unable to catch up, which already shows they lack the understanding that everyone eventually is able to reach cap level and with time has the means to acquire those tier1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8 or purple's armor/weapons/items.
Anyway sorry OP I do not agree with you, it's generally speaking the players who let MMO's die fast, but not for the reason given in OP, but pure because they want it all and want it even for free for the most part.
How is it the I want it now crowd? Look at neverwinter to get the same mount that is $40 in the cashshop you need to farm AD for weeks on end. If you are willing to put several hours a day into it you will get it in a shorter amount of time. VS having a tough quest line like the pali did in WoW. It took you a few days to get the mount if you had a good group to get through the scholo part of the quest. It didnt take weeks on end or money to get it. You got it by doing the quest and finding a good group to finish the quest chain.
Its obviously due to the game design not the payment model. Linear quest hub design does not inspire a lot of hanging around. We have all played countless games with this design. Ever consider people are tired of the same thing time after time?
Why would I play, a game I don't like, longer because I'm paying?
Many are throw away lobby games now. You see it on here all the time, people wanting everything to be instanced, lobby based, not having to run/walk anywhere, matchmakers for groups/dungeons/raids, everything to be instanced, solo content, 2 people 'raids'......People will tell you that this is what people want, that it is great. Payment model doesn't even matter, 90+% of these games people play and throw away, regardless of model, which people will also tell you is great.
A MMORPG is not supposed to be a throw away, no player investment lobby game. The definition is not changing, just what people are trying to pass off for a mmo is VERY borderline. The line has been getting blurred, and the genre is suffering for it imo.
Hopefully some of the new development cycle content that has a increased focus on sandbox content, to go along with themepark content will be better and help things out some.
Problem is people will want a Lobby game with the sandbox genera too people they will complain it takes too long to find a group. The problem is too many MMOs so they need to catter to as many players as possible not 500K players and be happy with that because the publishers are investing hundreds of millions of dollars into their MMOs. Not 20 to 50 Million and making that back in 8 to 12 months worth of 500K subs. This is what Blizzard did with WoW and why it made a huge profit because they didnt spend aimlessly on a game.
f2p really has little or nothing to do with it...The biggest problem is there are simply too many MMOs out there to be supported.......Games are often f2p because it is the best way to lure in players.....Games that charge 50 bucks for the box, then a sub, then a cash shop are just cutting their own throats....I havent played a MMO in years that was worth dropping that kind of money on....TOday it is simply too easy to just go find a new game because there are so many.
How is it the I want it now crowd? Look at neverwinter to get the same mount that is $40 in the cashshop you need to farm AD for weeks on end. If you are willing to put several hours a day into it you will get it in a shorter amount of time. VS having a tough quest line like the pali did in WoW. It took you a few days to get the mount if you had a good group to get through the scholo part of the quest. It didnt take weeks on end or money to get it. You got it by doing the quest and finding a good group to finish the quest chain.
You taking something specific while I am talking in general.
I sure would love to see some sort of means to get a mount by certain quest in Neverwinter instead of buying them with Zen or Trade Bars. Then again for a few gold you can buy mounts , might not be as diverse as Zen bought mounts but it will do the job. Sorry but I can accept it as is, you don't have to, I just might enjoy the game differently compared to you.
Have you noticed how there are hundreds of MMO but they all die off in a matter of months.
Yes I have noticed there are hundreds of MMO's, no I have only read people posting MMO's are dying. And of course seen the games that actually closed servers but that's just a very tiny % of total MMO's.
Have you noticed that people jump from MMO to MMO.
Yeah not so difficult to understand with F2P games, where with a P2P MMO people are often more devoted to the game or scared to not to play due to the sub fee loss if not playing.
Have you noticed how communities in MMO are dead, no one really gives a damn anymore.
No not really noticed this because there are thousands of guilds around. I do agree the random mainly solo socializer has lesser means to really need other people thus resulting in becoming more solo oriented because the game doesn't encourage true communication.
Have you noticed how you seem to level to the cap in a matter of weeks.
Nothing really new we had this in the old, only thing is it's even more easy these day's. Yet I still am able to spend allot of time before hitting cap lvl in even the linear themepark games. Going into my 3rd month in 2 day's in Neverwinter with one character level 50 another one level 41. Sure I could have been cap level with my main toon but I am never in a rush with games and besides that I often only have a few hours during the week with some exceptions in hte weekend mostly sunday, depending on the weather outside.
In a F2P MMO all the freeloaders bail the ship once they hit the paywall after a few weeks, the ones who get tired of having to pay to progress bail the ship a few weeks after, and the whales is all that's left, but they jump ship too once they realise they're competing against themselves and no longer have a monetary edge over freeloaders.
Feel it's just your perception, doesn't make it wrong nor right but just what you are seeing.
As a result, no one joins older F2P, since they would need to spend hundreds of dollars to compete with the whales. The MMO simply die.
That only counts towards the "I want it now and want it all crowd"
As a result the quality of the MMO goes down too, since the companies make dying MMO after dying MMO, to rake in cash from the whales.
Company's don't make dying MMORPG's, but then again you already should have known this..... Perhaps you OP are very young and perhaps have no understanding that company's will go for profit, the utcome how ever is sort of a bet and can often never be predicted in this genre.
In China MMo last a couple of months, and they shut them down. This is the future of F2P MMO, completely meaningless casino adventures. Congorats.
I guess you missed seeing many new upcoming MMO's trying to be different or expand on what we have or rebuild the old into the new.
As I told many times it's the "I WANT IT ALL AND WANT IT NOW CROWD" that is destroying this genre more so then any company could ever do. These folks complain about cash shops being to expensive even though they don't really need the items from a cash shop but just because they feel entitled to have it all.......and even for free...They are afraid that another person might be way ahead in skills and is unable to catch up, which already shows they lack the understanding that everyone eventually is able to reach cap level and with time has the means to acquire those tier1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8 or purple's armor/weapons/items.
Anyway sorry OP I do not agree with you, it's generally speaking the players who let MMO's die fast, but not for the reason given in OP, but pure because they want it all and want it even for free for the most part.
It is AMAZING that some people like this poster have so bought into the F2P mentality that they actually believe someone is ENTITLED simply for wanting to get in-game items without paying real life cash for them.
I was SOOOO entitled back when I was playing Legend of Zelda and just got the Master Sword through playing a game I already bought without paying a dime for it through the mail order Nintendo Shop!
I'm no better than a thief! Ayn Rand would have my head.
There are more than one way do F2P yes the games that squeeze every last penny out of players with F2P people leave cause they are not gonna put up with it. But F2P also saves MMO's from going bye bye that failed with a subscription model. Games that only have cosmetic micro transactions and do not put you in the place of getting a very inconvenient game if you don't pay for things like bag and bank space tend to have very loyal followings. So while the OP has a point there are some major details that have been ignored. Also the biggest problem with MMO's in general is they did the same damn thing over and over again until people got sick of it. They cost a lot to make so many studios tried to go with the safe choices ( themepark make it like WoW but with a few differences ) the genre is just stagnant and needs a kick in the butt, there is still plenty of interest in MMO's but if SWTOR proved anything it's that doing the same thing over and over again the fans are not gonna support it.
I say bring back the hell levels in eq. when it takes months to move up. And don't charge me for a bag or a horse. Charge me for a character slot. And ill pay for an account.
IMO the prob is that most new MMO's you see these days you burn through the content in days. Take Neverwinter for instance: I started playing an assassin 2 days ago, almost lvl 60 now. For the decent items you need to pay. I'm sorry but I'm not going to do that. On the other hand for a game like Wildstar I'll be willing to pay 70 Euro and a sub of 25 Euro a month.
the steel shines red with enemy blood. It sings of victory, granted by the gods. And as they return bleeding but proud, the horizon burns and the song is ringing LOUD!
How is it the I want it now crowd? Look at neverwinter to get the same mount that is $40 in the cashshop you need to farm AD for weeks on end. If you are willing to put several hours a day into it you will get it in a shorter amount of time. VS having a tough quest line like the pali did in WoW. It took you a few days to get the mount if you had a good group to get through the scholo part of the quest. It didnt take weeks on end or money to get it. You got it by doing the quest and finding a good group to finish the quest chain.
You taking something specific while I am talking in general.
I sure would love to see some sort of means to get a mount by certain quest in Neverwinter instead of buying them with Zen or Trade Bars. Then again for a few gold you can buy mounts , might not be as diverse as Zen bought mounts but it will do the job. Sorry but I can accept it as is, you don't have to, I just might enjoy the game differently compared to you.
But that was not what my reply was about
I agree that right now MMOs are doing things wrong. Yes Effort should be required to get something in game. I do believe it shouldn't be months worth of effort for a mount thats just crazy. The truth is MMOs lost the art of balancing effort and time sinks with making a game for everyone.
>>Have you noticed how there are hundreds of MMO but they all die off in a matter of months.<<
Including P2P mmos. So it's not a problem of F2P, is it?
>>Have you noticed that people jump from MMO to MMO.<<
Yes, because I have no interest in "investing" my life into a game. I'm playing MMOs to have a bit of fun after work, if my family life allows me. Then (after a couple of months of casual playing) I've seen everything this MMO has to offer, I'm getting bored, I'm going to another one.
There is no power in the world that will make me log in to repeat "dailies" or to "raid" or another pointless boring idiotism. There is no "end game" for me because the game has ended; it's over; there is no, and never will be, nothing further of interest for me in this game.
>>Have you noticed how communities in MMO are dead, no one really gives a damn anymore.<<
Because I'm not looking for freaking friends in MMOs. I'm not interesting in developing relationships or "investing" in the "community". I have family and real-life friends, I barely have enough time to invest in relationships with THEM, MMO communities may go hang themselves.
>>Have you noticed how you seem to level to the cap in a matter of weeks.<<
No, I haven't. Having only time to play a couple of hours 2-3 times a week I haven't ever felt that.
It's simply not your world anymore, MMOs. It's mine now. You are a dead end; go die off somewhere in the "hardcore" MMOs.
Originally posted by Theocritus f2p really has little or nothing to do with it...The biggest problem is there are simply too many MMOs out there to be supported.......Games are often f2p because it is the best way to lure in players.....Games that charge 50 bucks for the box, then a sub, then a cash shop are just cutting their own throats....I havent played a MMO in years that was worth dropping that kind of money on....TOday it is simply too easy to just go find a new game because there are so many.
I am glad other people are seeing the root problem as well as I been for about 2 years now. Too many MMOs on the market is only going to do 1 thing that is crash the market. Markets are about a balance between supply and demand. Too much supply and not enough demand and the market crashes or shrinks. Now we just need to wait until the market comes back down to normal and people will understand why not ever game should be F2P or P2P.
1/ Publishers are greedy, they all want all of the MMO pie!
2/ FTP players are only after a free ride, they do not care about the game or the genre.
3/ Subs keep trolls away as they do not like paying to be under the MMO bridge!
4/ Every new MMO has been one big rollercoaster of boredom, with empty promises and lies from the devs.
5/ The games market in general is nickle and diming as much as they can because us dumb fucks are buying their crap... Season passes, cash shops, DLC... We've not bought a FULL game in years! (*we - as in the non ftp sponges!).
6/ We're all doomed! I'm taking up invisible Golf, where I stand in my living room swinging my arms about! /honest!
No trials. No tricks. No traps. No EU-RP server. NO THANKS!
>>Have you noticed how there are hundreds of MMO but they all die off in a matter of months.<<
Including P2P mmos. So it's not a problem of F2P, is it?
>>Have you noticed that people jump from MMO to MMO.<<
Yes, because I have no interest in "investing" my life into a game. I'm playing MMOs to have a bit of fun after work, if my family life allows me. Then (after a couple of months of casual playing) I've seen everything this MMO has to offer, I'm getting bored, I'm going to another one.
There is no power in the world that will make me log in to repeat "dailies" or to "raid" or another pointless boring idiotism. There is no "end game" for me because the game has ended; it's over; there is no, and never will be, nothing further of interest for me in this game.
>>Have you noticed how communities in MMO are dead, no one really gives a damn anymore.<<
Because I'm not looking for freaking friends in MMOs. I'm not interesting in developing relationships or "investing" in the "community". I have family and real-life friends, I barely have enough time to invest in relationships with THEM, MMO communities may go hang themselves.
>>Have you noticed how you seem to level to the cap in a matter of weeks.<<
No, I haven't. Having only time to play a couple of hours 2-3 times a week I haven't ever felt that.
It's simply not your world anymore, MMOs. It's mine now. You are a dead end; go die off somewhere in the "hardcore" MMOs.
Not sure if your giving examples of what is happening or if you are explaining your personal feelings?
>>Have you noticed how there are hundreds of MMO but they all die off in a matter of months.<<
Including P2P mmos. So it's not a problem of F2P, is it?
>>Have you noticed that people jump from MMO to MMO.<<
Yes, because I have no interest in "investing" my life into a game. I'm playing MMOs to have a bit of fun after work, if my family life allows me. Then (after a couple of months of casual playing) I've seen everything this MMO has to offer, I'm getting bored, I'm going to another one.
There is no power in the world that will make me log in to repeat "dailies" or to "raid" or another pointless boring idiotism. There is no "end game" for me because the game has ended; it's over; there is no, and never will be, nothing further of interest for me in this game.
>>Have you noticed how communities in MMO are dead, no one really gives a damn anymore.<<
Because I'm not looking for freaking friends in MMOs. I'm not interesting in developing relationships or "investing" in the "community". I have family and real-life friends, I barely have enough time to invest in relationships with THEM, MMO communities may go hang themselves.
>>Have you noticed how you seem to level to the cap in a matter of weeks.<<
No, I haven't. Having only time to play a couple of hours 2-3 times a week I haven't ever felt that.
It's simply not your world anymore, MMOs. It's mine now. You are a dead end; go die off somewhere in the "hardcore" MMOs.
Not sure if your giving examples of what is happening or if you are explaining your personal feelings?
My personal feelings, which are, in my opinion, very good examples of what is happening.
MMOs are dieing for a variety of reason but most of them stem from 1 fact than many people on these forums seem to get offended by:
PCs are dieing.
Tablets cannibalized 3.5% of the PC market from 2011 to 2012. That figure went up to 7.5% from 2012 - 2013. So in 2 years PC sales have dropped 11%
People like to respond to this point by saying "Tons of people around the world still use PCs though!" While this is true it is looking at the problem from the wrong angle. Gamers always make the mistake of assuming that devs are the ones behind games and ignoring the other half of the equation....financing.
Devs need money to develop games and very few financiers want to give money to a dev who works in a shrinking industry. This is likely why we have seen Blizzard's "titan" shelved. It is also why we see so many new "jump start" projects popping up all over. Devs have been incapable of getting money elsewhere so they go to the consumer. It is also why we see so many half baked MMO releases in recent years. The money guys behind the devs are demanding they release before the market is cannibalized even more, which in turn leads to incomplete projects hitting the markets and angering gamers.
The problem is expected to get even worse going forward. Look at the new Xbox coming out. It has a processor capable of doing many of the things computers can do. Who knows if it will work out, but clearly Microsoft is trying to further cannibalize dying PC gaming market with a console they say is capable of PC like performance. I know PCs are always going to outpace consoles as far as top end gaming, but the fact is games are not made for top end machines, they are made for the masses. Right now, the masses are leaving the PC behind.
Originally posted by Blackaddera IMO the prob is that most new MMO's you see these days you burn through the content in days. Take Neverwinter for instance: I started playing an assassin 2 days ago, almost lvl 60 now. For the decent items you need to pay. I'm sorry but I'm not going to do that. On the other hand for a game like Wildstar I'll be willing to pay 70 Euro and a sub of 25 Euro a month.
Euros are not peanuts mate. No game deserves 25 euros per month.
Regarding the OP's concerns: only the bad mmo's die fast and their payment model is irrelevant with their fate.
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Hey Bones,
Its not P2P. Games are not free, and MMOs need consistently operational cost to keep playing. Something F2P will never get you cannot make enough money consistently to pay your operating cost period. F2P will bring down many publishers in the near future. You can take that to the bank. There are just too many MMOs and F2P will do nothing but bring alone the enviable which is games shutting down faster because too much money is spent creating a game for little or no return on investment.
Actually very MMO's have actually been shut down.
Many do shrink do levels of 50-500k which is a reasonable level for most games, it is not reasonable to expect them to have sustained millions of subs.
People didn't give a damn in most p2p MMO's, reference WoW.
People jumped from MMO to MMO in p2p as well.
So the entirety of your post is factually wrong and complete hyperbole. We've come to expect that from your posts though.
edit - f2p with cs have been around since before UO. It has shown it's longevity and success.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
As I told many times it's the "I WANT IT ALL AND WANT IT NOW CROWD" that is destroying this genre more so then any company could ever do. These folks complain about cash shops being to expensive even though they don't really need the items from a cash shop but just because they feel entitled to have it all.......and even for free...They are afraid that another person might be way ahead in skills and is unable to catch up, which already shows they lack the understanding that everyone eventually is able to reach cap level and with time has the means to acquire those tier1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8 or purple's armor/weapons/items.
Anyway sorry OP I do not agree with you, it's generally speaking the players who let MMO's die fast, but not for the reason given in OP, but pure because they want it all and want it even for free for the most part.
Recent years have proved People will play mediocre F2P games till they hit the pay wall then move on to the next over mediocre P2P or even a good P2P game that lacks content and usually a direction for endgame.
So yes F2P games have caused people to move away from P2P games but because the developers of P2P games haven't risen their game to keep people subbed and probably won't when it's cheaper and potentially more profitable to go F2P instead.
Many are throw away lobby games now. You see it on here all the time, people wanting everything to be instanced, lobby based, not having to run/walk anywhere, matchmakers for groups/dungeons/raids, everything to be instanced, solo content, 2 people 'raids'......People will tell you that this is what people want, that it is great. Payment model doesn't even matter, 90+% of these games people play and throw away, regardless of model, which people will also tell you is great.
A MMORPG is not supposed to be a throw away, no player investment lobby game. The definition is not changing, just what people are trying to pass off for a mmo is VERY borderline. The line has been getting blurred, and the genre is suffering for it imo.
Hopefully some of the new development cycle content that has a increased focus on sandbox content, to go along with themepark content will be better and help things out some.
How is it the I want it now crowd? Look at neverwinter to get the same mount that is $40 in the cashshop you need to farm AD for weeks on end. If you are willing to put several hours a day into it you will get it in a shorter amount of time. VS having a tough quest line like the pali did in WoW. It took you a few days to get the mount if you had a good group to get through the scholo part of the quest. It didnt take weeks on end or money to get it. You got it by doing the quest and finding a good group to finish the quest chain.
Why would I play, a game I don't like, longer because I'm paying?
Problem is people will want a Lobby game with the sandbox genera too people they will complain it takes too long to find a group. The problem is too many MMOs so they need to catter to as many players as possible not 500K players and be happy with that because the publishers are investing hundreds of millions of dollars into their MMOs. Not 20 to 50 Million and making that back in 8 to 12 months worth of 500K subs. This is what Blizzard did with WoW and why it made a huge profit because they didnt spend aimlessly on a game.
You taking something specific while I am talking in general.
I sure would love to see some sort of means to get a mount by certain quest in Neverwinter instead of buying them with Zen or Trade Bars. Then again for a few gold you can buy mounts , might not be as diverse as Zen bought mounts but it will do the job. Sorry but I can accept it as is, you don't have to, I just might enjoy the game differently compared to you.
But that was not what my reply was about
It is AMAZING that some people like this poster have so bought into the F2P mentality that they actually believe someone is ENTITLED simply for wanting to get in-game items without paying real life cash for them.
I was SOOOO entitled back when I was playing Legend of Zelda and just got the Master Sword through playing a game I already bought without paying a dime for it through the mail order Nintendo Shop!
I'm no better than a thief! Ayn Rand would have my head.
http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan
There are more than one way do F2P yes the games that squeeze every last penny out of players with F2P people leave cause they are not gonna put up with it. But F2P also saves MMO's from going bye bye that failed with a subscription model. Games that only have cosmetic micro transactions and do not put you in the place of getting a very inconvenient game if you don't pay for things like bag and bank space tend to have very loyal followings. So while the OP has a point there are some major details that have been ignored. Also the biggest problem with MMO's in general is they did the same damn thing over and over again until people got sick of it. They cost a lot to make so many studios tried to go with the safe choices ( themepark make it like WoW but with a few differences ) the genre is just stagnant and needs a kick in the butt, there is still plenty of interest in MMO's but if SWTOR proved anything it's that doing the same thing over and over again the fans are not gonna support it.
the steel shines red with enemy blood. It sings of victory, granted by the gods. And as they return bleeding but proud, the horizon burns and the song is ringing LOUD!
I agree that right now MMOs are doing things wrong. Yes Effort should be required to get something in game. I do believe it shouldn't be months worth of effort for a mount thats just crazy. The truth is MMOs lost the art of balancing effort and time sinks with making a game for everyone.
>>Have you noticed how there are hundreds of MMO but they all die off in a matter of months.<<
Including P2P mmos. So it's not a problem of F2P, is it?
>>Have you noticed that people jump from MMO to MMO.<<
Yes, because I have no interest in "investing" my life into a game. I'm playing MMOs to have a bit of fun after work, if my family life allows me. Then (after a couple of months of casual playing) I've seen everything this MMO has to offer, I'm getting bored, I'm going to another one.
There is no power in the world that will make me log in to repeat "dailies" or to "raid" or another pointless boring idiotism. There is no "end game" for me because the game has ended; it's over; there is no, and never will be, nothing further of interest for me in this game.
>>Have you noticed how communities in MMO are dead, no one really gives a damn anymore.<<
Because I'm not looking for freaking friends in MMOs. I'm not interesting in developing relationships or "investing" in the "community". I have family and real-life friends, I barely have enough time to invest in relationships with THEM, MMO communities may go hang themselves.
>>Have you noticed how you seem to level to the cap in a matter of weeks.<<
No, I haven't. Having only time to play a couple of hours 2-3 times a week I haven't ever felt that.
It's simply not your world anymore, MMOs. It's mine now. You are a dead end; go die off somewhere in the "hardcore" MMOs.
I am glad other people are seeing the root problem as well as I been for about 2 years now. Too many MMOs on the market is only going to do 1 thing that is crash the market. Markets are about a balance between supply and demand. Too much supply and not enough demand and the market crashes or shrinks. Now we just need to wait until the market comes back down to normal and people will understand why not ever game should be F2P or P2P.
1/ Publishers are greedy, they all want all of the MMO pie!
2/ FTP players are only after a free ride, they do not care about the game or the genre.
3/ Subs keep trolls away as they do not like paying to be under the MMO bridge!
4/ Every new MMO has been one big rollercoaster of boredom, with empty promises and lies from the devs.
5/ The games market in general is nickle and diming as much as they can because us dumb fucks are buying their crap... Season passes, cash shops, DLC... We've not bought a FULL game in years! (*we - as in the non ftp sponges!).
6/ We're all doomed! I'm taking up invisible Golf, where I stand in my living room swinging my arms about! /honest!
No trials. No tricks. No traps. No EU-RP server. NO THANKS!
...10% Benevolence, 90% Arrogance in my case!
Not sure if your giving examples of what is happening or if you are explaining your personal feelings?
My personal feelings, which are, in my opinion, very good examples of what is happening.
MMOs are dieing for a variety of reason but most of them stem from 1 fact than many people on these forums seem to get offended by:
PCs are dieing.
Tablets cannibalized 3.5% of the PC market from 2011 to 2012. That figure went up to 7.5% from 2012 - 2013. So in 2 years PC sales have dropped 11%
People like to respond to this point by saying "Tons of people around the world still use PCs though!" While this is true it is looking at the problem from the wrong angle. Gamers always make the mistake of assuming that devs are the ones behind games and ignoring the other half of the equation....financing.
Devs need money to develop games and very few financiers want to give money to a dev who works in a shrinking industry. This is likely why we have seen Blizzard's "titan" shelved. It is also why we see so many new "jump start" projects popping up all over. Devs have been incapable of getting money elsewhere so they go to the consumer. It is also why we see so many half baked MMO releases in recent years. The money guys behind the devs are demanding they release before the market is cannibalized even more, which in turn leads to incomplete projects hitting the markets and angering gamers.
The problem is expected to get even worse going forward. Look at the new Xbox coming out. It has a processor capable of doing many of the things computers can do. Who knows if it will work out, but clearly Microsoft is trying to further cannibalize dying PC gaming market with a console they say is capable of PC like performance. I know PCs are always going to outpace consoles as far as top end gaming, but the fact is games are not made for top end machines, they are made for the masses. Right now, the masses are leaving the PC behind.
Euros are not peanuts mate. No game deserves 25 euros per month.
Regarding the OP's concerns: only the bad mmo's die fast and their payment model is irrelevant with their fate.