While the pc market is a concern I don't think it's as big a concern as you make out. The PC industry is still a multi multi billion dollar industry as is the MMO industry.
And MMO's are and will continue to be made for tablets and tablets are becoming more powerfull all the time.
I don't think the MMO industry will de, or even hiccup really, because of PC's.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
>>Have you noticed how there are hundreds of MMO but they all die off in a matter of months.<<
Including P2P mmos. So it's not a problem of F2P, is it?
>>Have you noticed that people jump from MMO to MMO.<<
Yes, because I have no interest in "investing" my life into a game. I'm playing MMOs to have a bit of fun after work, if my family life allows me. Then (after a couple of months of casual playing) I've seen everything this MMO has to offer, I'm getting bored, I'm going to another one.
There is no power in the world that will make me log in to repeat "dailies" or to "raid" or another pointless boring idiotism. There is no "end game" for me because the game has ended; it's over; there is no, and never will be, nothing further of interest for me in this game.
>>Have you noticed how communities in MMO are dead, no one really gives a damn anymore.<<
Because I'm not looking for freaking friends in MMOs. I'm not interesting in developing relationships or "investing" in the "community". I have family and real-life friends, I barely have enough time to invest in relationships with THEM, MMO communities may go hang themselves.
>>Have you noticed how you seem to level to the cap in a matter of weeks.<<
No, I haven't. Having only time to play a couple of hours 2-3 times a week I haven't ever felt that.
It's simply not your world anymore, MMOs. It's mine now. You are a dead end; go die off somewhere in the "hardcore" MMOs.
Not sure if your giving examples of what is happening or if you are explaining your personal feelings?
My personal feelings, which are, in my opinion, very good examples of what is happening.
Well I am going to say this. I am partly in the same boat you are with having a family, I work full time and I also working on a BS degree in CIS. After that I plan to go for an MBA.
You are right when you say that there are a lot of players not willing to invest their life into a game. Many gamers do only get a few hours a week to be able to play. That is the current market however there is a difference between what the Market is right now and what the market should be to maintain a health MMO genera. Right now the genera is not health at all, and we will see publishers closing in the next few years. They are just investing too much money for little or no profit period, and thats due to too many MMOs out there. They are trying to make an MMO good enough to single/mutiplayer types because they need that business to try to make a profit. Honestly this is the core issue right now with MMOs period. Trying to cater to a Lobby based market that does not embody what MMOS have been or should be.
You are also right that the MMO player base right now wants nothing to do with community. That also goes back to the root problem of too many games and needing to bring in NON MMO type players into the genera. Lets face it before we had a saturated MMO Market community was the Key to a successful MMO. Friends brought their friends into a game and the chain reaction kept going. Thats how MMOs built their player base. Today they need to advertise to everyone and their brother to get players because the publisher invested 50 to 250 Million dollars into their game and they need to turn a profit.
So what do we have? A market that does not give one thought to what a TRUE MMO is. They are just playing throw away games in their minds and thats what the market has boiled down to. Its the truth. However the genera cannot and will not last going in this direction. I am sorry to say but if you are not playing a game you will invest some time and effort into (I am not talking hardcore 4 nights a week raiding) and invest into making friends. This is not the genera for you. This is WHY the genera is on a downward spiral. Because MMOs are designed around community and investing time that you feel attached to the game. Much like a Bowling team, or Poker night with the buddies on Saturday nights. If you dont care about what the genera means single player games or Multiplayer games like Neverwinter Nights 2 are for you. Not MMOs.
Now with that said how do I not feel the same as you with all I have going on in my life. Because my social time is with my friends that I been playing MMOs with for 5+ years. We know everything about each other, we become good friends and even though our lives are limiting our play time what we are doing come FFXIV is setting 2 days 3 at most aside for POKER GAME NIGHT. We get on, have an idea what to do for the night and go do it. From 830 to 11pm is our time to play and have fun shoot the shit and call it a night. The rest of the week is 100% for RL. How do we do it? Simple we manage our lives so that we have that time. Why? Simple if you do not have ME time guess what? You go nuts and your relationships hurt because of it. Give my finacee ME time when she wants. Her ME time is her reading her books. I make sure she gets that. She makes sure I get ME time to play a game with my friends.
To think the MMO world can sustain the current path is just folly too many games is just ruining the genera. Trying to get every tom dick and harry is not what the genera needs. It needs MMO players to be MMO players moving forward
>>Have you noticed how there are hundreds of MMO but they all die off in a matter of months.<<
Including P2P mmos. So it's not a problem of F2P, is it?
>>Have you noticed that people jump from MMO to MMO.<<
Yes, because I have no interest in "investing" my life into a game. I'm playing MMOs to have a bit of fun after work, if my family life allows me. Then (after a couple of months of casual playing) I've seen everything this MMO has to offer, I'm getting bored, I'm going to another one.
There is no power in the world that will make me log in to repeat "dailies" or to "raid" or another pointless boring idiotism. There is no "end game" for me because the game has ended; it's over; there is no, and never will be, nothing further of interest for me in this game.
>>Have you noticed how communities in MMO are dead, no one really gives a damn anymore.<<
Because I'm not looking for freaking friends in MMOs. I'm not interesting in developing relationships or "investing" in the "community". I have family and real-life friends, I barely have enough time to invest in relationships with THEM, MMO communities may go hang themselves.
>>Have you noticed how you seem to level to the cap in a matter of weeks.<<
No, I haven't. Having only time to play a couple of hours 2-3 times a week I haven't ever felt that.
It's simply not your world anymore, MMOs. It's mine now. You are a dead end; go die off somewhere in the "hardcore" MMOs.
Not sure if your giving examples of what is happening or if you are explaining your personal feelings?
My personal feelings, which are, in my opinion, very good examples of what is happening.
[mod edit]
[mod edit] Life just isn't the same as it was for us back then. The people who supported that "hardcore" mode are grown up now, have kids, families and careers. The games coming out now cater to them because there's more of us than the remnant hardcore group, there's simply more money in catering to us than them.
Would I love to find an MMO that could keep my attention 100% of the time (when I can Play) sure, of course I would, but that kind of game just won't exist. By the very design of those kinds of games, I believe that only putting in a bit of time here and there prevents us from feeling like we're "accomplishing" anything, so we stop playing. Meanwhile games now offer us ways to feel like we're doing something in an hour or so, but of course that comes with the downside that we're going to chew thru the content in a few months of casual play (Or weeks of hardcore if you're that guy).
MMOs are less than what they were simply because of the people playing them. I'm not saying there isn't hardcore players, I'm just saying that your market share is much smaller than the casual one and companies are out to make money, not go all chairty so a small group can have a game for a while.
Games are going to come and go now for as long as the genre lasts, and it will last for a long long time yet. The trick now is that as gamers we demand more for less and we expect to get it because we can just abandon one game and go to another in literally the blink of a download. Companies have to walk a fine line to give gamers something they'll enjoy.
As far as community goes, when I play a game I look to find people to play it with, fun folks who share a common sense of humor and set of goals. However when I leave the game do I feel like I've lost family or something? No, I never want to know anyones real names or dig into personal details. We're friends, but not the kind who are going to hang out on sundays and grill steaks.
Anyhow, gaming is what it is. Take it for what you can and if you can't enjoy it then don't play it. Easy as that, all these folks whining and moaning about how things weren't how they were 10 years ago need to realize that's the case with everything and it's still changing. You sound like my grandmother when you say stuff like this.
As an aside, I know 2 "hardcore" gamers that I consider friends. They are both jobless, have no significant other and live with their parents and they're almost 40 years old. Some will say that's a stereotype but frankly I don't know a whole lot of people who pull their 40 hours, married with kids and commitments thing who can call themselves hardcore. Frankly saying you're hardcore is like saying you've given up on the rest of life...that's obviously my opinion tho.
While the pc market is a concern I don't think it's as big a concern as you make out. The PC industry is still a multi multi billion dollar industry as is the MMO industry.
And MMO's are and will continue to be made for tablets and tablets are becoming more powerfull all the time.
I don't think the MMO industry will de, or even hiccup really, because of PC's.
Well, at this point we are talking about MMOs as a PC dominated market. Perhaps in the future MMos can be played on something else but for not this is what we have.
I think you are missing my point though. While PC right now are the main engine of MMOs, and the PC market is very big still, it is shrinking very rapidly.
As I said, the guys who finance games do not like to give money to projects tied to a shrinking customer base. Especially when you look at the rate at which it is shrinking. It is expected that in 2017 tablet sales will surpass PC completely.
Furthermore, many analysts have claimed the PC sales drop has been hit hardest by home PC users. Offices still use old boxes being notoriously cheap and slow with upgrades when compared to home users. In 2014, Microsoft is stopping all support for windows XP, which is still largely used by businesses around the world. Many predict that rather than upgrade to a new version of windows at a large cost, many businesses will move on completely from the PC.
I fully expect MMOs to survive, and eventually I am sure they will thrive. But, it wont happen until MMOs and PCs are separated from each other. New consoles may be the answer. Ones that can process the information needed to have massive players. They are more console/pc hybrids. Or, it could be tablets, but that would mean we are a way off because current tablets are nowhere near capable.
Either way, PC mmos are dieing and people can guess all they want about why but the numbers and indicators clearly show that the reason is more obvious than people want to admit. The engine that people use to play MMOs is dieing.
Have you noticed how there are hundreds of MMO but they all die off in a matter of months.
They die off because levelling is way way too fast at hitting cap. They need to give themselves some leeway and time to come up with some decent cap level content (not rushed after several months of waiting).
Have you noticed that people jump from MMO to MMO.
Boredom (because they hit cap level in a week) and have done end content a fair few times they have lost interest.
Have you noticed how communities in MMO are dead, no one really gives a damn anymore.
yeah, I have
Have you noticed how you seem to level to the cap in a matter of weeks.
While the pc market is a concern I don't think it's as big a concern as you make out. The PC industry is still a multi multi billion dollar industry as is the MMO industry.
And MMO's are and will continue to be made for tablets and tablets are becoming more powerfull all the time.
I don't think the MMO industry will de, or even hiccup really, because of PC's.
Wrong. How long do you think that publishers will last dropping $100 Million into a game to only get 20 to 30 Million in revenue a year before operating cost? Then going F2P to hope to make up the money in an investment? It cannot happen because if the publisher is not making money why keep their doors open? They will not.
Will it work in Tablets? Different world and I can tell you from playing Little Empires as well as other games they are not expensive to develop and there will always be people impulse buying on them games. however for the majority like me I will not spend a cent on a tablet game. So the 30 people that are spending hundreds a month on the game will pay off a game that took 2 or 3 Million to make. You will not see $100 Million tablet games any time soon.
While the pc market is a concern I don't think it's as big a concern as you make out. The PC industry is still a multi multi billion dollar industry as is the MMO industry.
And MMO's are and will continue to be made for tablets and tablets are becoming more powerfull all the time.
I don't think the MMO industry will de, or even hiccup really, because of PC's.
Wrong. How long do you think that publishers will last dropping $100 Million into a game to only get 20 to 30 Million in revenue a year before operating cost? Then going F2P to hope to make up the money in an investment? It cannot happen because if the publisher is not making money why keep their doors open? They will not.
Will it work in Tablets? Different world and I can tell you from playing Little Empires as well as other games they are not expensive to develop and there will always be people impulse buying on them games. however for the majority like me I will not spend a cent on a tablet game. So the 30 people that are spending hundreds a month on the game will pay off a game that took 2 or 3 Million to make. You will not see $100 Million tablet games any time soon.
Originally posted by Blackaddera IMO the prob is that most new MMO's you see these days you burn through the content in days. Take Neverwinter for instance: I started playing an assassin 2 days ago, almost lvl 60 now. For the decent items you need to pay. I'm sorry but I'm not going to do that. On the other hand for a game like Wildstar I'll be willing to pay 70 Euro and a sub of 25 Euro a month.
Euros are not peanuts mate. No game deserves 25 euros per month.
Regarding the OP's concerns: only the bad mmo's die fast and their payment model is irrelevant with their fate.
I know 25 euro ain't peanuts, I'm from Belgium but still for a great game i'd be willing to pay that much.
the steel shines red with enemy blood. It sings of victory, granted by the gods. And as they return bleeding but proud, the horizon burns and the song is ringing LOUD!
Keep in mind that Pre WoW 500k subs whas an absolute dream number for mmo studio's. Post WoW a mmo fails if it doesnt even reach 2 million.
What changed ?
Greed - Community - Investors - Shareholders
WoW when breaking 500k subs had a wicked awesome community just like UO / EQ. Dev's loved to interact with players and hearing feedback.
Then Blizzard changed and the whole industry changed with it. Activision and suits went for a cash cow milking product.
fast forward 2013:
More revenue is made with BtP / FtP, afterall 200k subs is stressfull for players are it will create many empty servers. FtP also fills up those servers with a constand inflow of new players.
While with subs you reach a peak and it diminsish from there with lower and lower sub numbers each year.
One thing is sure ftp aint the devil its the greed from cash shop creators that can make a mmo look bad and pushing the industry into the wrong direction. BtP mmo's like GW2 show that a studio can also create a rock solid mmo and make good profits. Even with a cash shop added !
And dont forget in the old days you dint raly have a choice, you where an mmo player, the most niche market in gaming. MMO's where created by nerds for nerds, profit wasnt up there, but the love for community where nerds could gather and be nerds.
So i think the OP is right and wrong in his post. But its much more complicated then it used to be
While the pc market is a concern I don't think it's as big a concern as you make out. The PC industry is still a multi multi billion dollar industry as is the MMO industry.
And MMO's are and will continue to be made for tablets and tablets are becoming more powerfull all the time.
I don't think the MMO industry will de, or even hiccup really, because of PC's.
Wrong. How long do you think that publishers will last dropping $100 Million into a game to only get 20 to 30 Million in revenue a year before operating cost? Then going F2P to hope to make up the money in an investment? It cannot happen because if the publisher is not making money why keep their doors open? They will not.
Will it work in Tablets? Different world and I can tell you from playing Little Empires as well as other games they are not expensive to develop and there will always be people impulse buying on them games. however for the majority like me I will not spend a cent on a tablet game. So the 30 people that are spending hundreds a month on the game will pay off a game that took 2 or 3 Million to make. You will not see $100 Million tablet games any time soon.
Well most publishers and games did not spend 100 million developing an MMO, those are still the ultra expensive ones so your first point is moot.
2ndly tablets are becoming more powerful and very common, I do expect to see tens of millions of dollars spent on MMO's for them (the average cost of a game)
3rdly what was I wrong about? I said that MMO's will not experience a hiccup due to the PC, not that MMO's won't have trouble with other areas.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
>>Have you noticed how there are hundreds of MMO but they all die off in a matter of months.<<
Including P2P mmos. So it's not a problem of F2P, is it?
>>Have you noticed that people jump from MMO to MMO.<<
Yes, because I have no interest in "investing" my life into a game. I'm playing MMOs to have a bit of fun after work, if my family life allows me. Then (after a couple of months of casual playing) I've seen everything this MMO has to offer, I'm getting bored, I'm going to another one.
There is no power in the world that will make me log in to repeat "dailies" or to "raid" or another pointless boring idiotism. There is no "end game" for me because the game has ended; it's over; there is no, and never will be, nothing further of interest for me in this game.
>>Have you noticed how communities in MMO are dead, no one really gives a damn anymore.<<
Because I'm not looking for freaking friends in MMOs. I'm not interesting in developing relationships or "investing" in the "community". I have family and real-life friends, I barely have enough time to invest in relationships with THEM, MMO communities may go hang themselves.
>>Have you noticed how you seem to level to the cap in a matter of weeks.<<
No, I haven't. Having only time to play a couple of hours 2-3 times a week I haven't ever felt that.
It's simply not your world anymore, MMOs. It's mine now. You are a dead end; go die off somewhere in the "hardcore" MMOs.
Not sure if your giving examples of what is happening or if you are explaining your personal feelings?
My personal feelings, which are, in my opinion, very good examples of what is happening.
Wow gee you sound like a great guy to play with.
Why don't you just go play a single player game. You bring nothing to a multiplayer game, I don't want to play with you. Thank god you only hop around crappy F2P titles.
I actually kind of agree with him, tho in a less harsh and sandy little butthole kind of way. Life just isn't the same as it was for us back then. The people who supported that "hardcore" mode are grown up now, have kids, families and careers. The games coming out now cater to them because there's more of us than the remnant hardcore group, there's simply more money in catering to us than them.
Would I love to find an MMO that could keep my attention 100% of the time (when I can Play) sure, of course I would, but that kind of game just won't exist. By the very design of those kinds of games, I believe that only putting in a bit of time here and there prevents us from feeling like we're "accomplishing" anything, so we stop playing. Meanwhile games now offer us ways to feel like we're doing something in an hour or so, but of course that comes with the downside that we're going to chew thru the content in a few months of casual play (Or weeks of hardcore if you're that guy).
MMOs are less than what they were simply because of the people playing them. I'm not saying there isn't hardcore players, I'm just saying that your market share is much smaller than the casual one and companies are out to make money, not go all chairty so a small group can have a game for a while.
Games are going to come and go now for as long as the genre lasts, and it will last for a long long time yet. The trick now is that as gamers we demand more for less and we expect to get it because we can just abandon one game and go to another in literally the blink of a download. Companies have to walk a fine line to give gamers something they'll enjoy.
As far as community goes, when I play a game I look to find people to play it with, fun folks who share a common sense of humor and set of goals. However when I leave the game do I feel like I've lost family or something? No, I never want to know anyones real names or dig into personal details. We're friends, but not the kind who are going to hang out on sundays and grill steaks.
Anyhow, gaming is what it is. Take it for what you can and if you can't enjoy it then don't play it. Easy as that, all these folks whining and moaning about how things weren't how they were 10 years ago need to realize that's the case with everything and it's still changing. You sound like my grandmother when you say stuff like this.
As an aside, I know 2 "hardcore" gamers that I consider friends. They are both jobless, have no significant other and live with their parents and they're almost 40 years old. Some will say that's a stereotype but frankly I don't know a whole lot of people who pull their 40 hours, married with kids and commitments thing who can call themselves hardcore. Frankly saying you're hardcore is like saying you've given up on the rest of life...that's obviously my opinion tho.
I agree with you that game developers need to walk a fine line between making stuff too easy and too hard. The problem is the players that never played an MMO to play an MMO. They want a lobby based game or a single player game for them. That is the problem MMO players will do one of two things. Be like you make friends in your current game and call it good when you leave and then you repeat the cycle or they are going to make friends that will follow them from game to game. Example is someone like me. I have had friends going as far back as UO and SWG that I sill play with today. Some of my friends in MMOs I would gladly meet up and have a BBQ with them because we are all the same type of people. We get a long well and play to have fun together. It reminds me of my hockey teams I played on back in my late teens early 20s.
The key to the casual players like myself is looking at a game that will make the content a PROCESS that a group of players share together. Not queue up and meet 12 year old harry who wants to tell you to GO GO GO and give him the loot. The market will be much better with just people who want to play MMOs and expect some kind of effort required and community being involved. Not lets pay for Skyrim online because its a single player game. That's what is causing the industries problems.
>>Have you noticed how there are hundreds of MMO but they all die off in a matter of months.<<
Including P2P mmos. So it's not a problem of F2P, is it?
>>Have you noticed that people jump from MMO to MMO.<<
Yes, because I have no interest in "investing" my life into a game. I'm playing MMOs to have a bit of fun after work, if my family life allows me. Then (after a couple of months of casual playing) I've seen everything this MMO has to offer, I'm getting bored, I'm going to another one.
There is no power in the world that will make me log in to repeat "dailies" or to "raid" or another pointless boring idiotism. There is no "end game" for me because the game has ended; it's over; there is no, and never will be, nothing further of interest for me in this game.
>>Have you noticed how communities in MMO are dead, no one really gives a damn anymore.<<
Because I'm not looking for freaking friends in MMOs. I'm not interesting in developing relationships or "investing" in the "community". I have family and real-life friends, I barely have enough time to invest in relationships with THEM, MMO communities may go hang themselves.
>>Have you noticed how you seem to level to the cap in a matter of weeks.<<
No, I haven't. Having only time to play a couple of hours 2-3 times a week I haven't ever felt that.
It's simply not your world anymore, MMOs. It's mine now. You are a dead end; go die off somewhere in the "hardcore" MMOs.
Not sure if your giving examples of what is happening or if you are explaining your personal feelings?
My personal feelings, which are, in my opinion, very good examples of what is happening.
Wow gee you sound like a great guy to play with.
Why don't you just go play a single player game. You bring nothing to a multiplayer game, I don't want to play with you. Thank god you only hop around crappy F2P titles.
I actually kind of agree with him, tho in a less harsh and sandy little butthole kind of way. Life just isn't the same as it was for us back then. The people who supported that "hardcore" mode are grown up now, have kids, families and careers. The games coming out now cater to them because there's more of us than the remnant hardcore group, there's simply more money in catering to us than them.
Would I love to find an MMO that could keep my attention 100% of the time (when I can Play) sure, of course I would, but that kind of game just won't exist. By the very design of those kinds of games, I believe that only putting in a bit of time here and there prevents us from feeling like we're "accomplishing" anything, so we stop playing. Meanwhile games now offer us ways to feel like we're doing something in an hour or so, but of course that comes with the downside that we're going to chew thru the content in a few months of casual play (Or weeks of hardcore if you're that guy).
MMOs are less than what they were simply because of the people playing them. I'm not saying there isn't hardcore players, I'm just saying that your market share is much smaller than the casual one and companies are out to make money, not go all chairty so a small group can have a game for a while.
Games are going to come and go now for as long as the genre lasts, and it will last for a long long time yet. The trick now is that as gamers we demand more for less and we expect to get it because we can just abandon one game and go to another in literally the blink of a download. Companies have to walk a fine line to give gamers something they'll enjoy.
As far as community goes, when I play a game I look to find people to play it with, fun folks who share a common sense of humor and set of goals. However when I leave the game do I feel like I've lost family or something? No, I never want to know anyones real names or dig into personal details. We're friends, but not the kind who are going to hang out on sundays and grill steaks.
Anyhow, gaming is what it is. Take it for what you can and if you can't enjoy it then don't play it. Easy as that, all these folks whining and moaning about how things weren't how they were 10 years ago need to realize that's the case with everything and it's still changing. You sound like my grandmother when you say stuff like this.
As an aside, I know 2 "hardcore" gamers that I consider friends. They are both jobless, have no significant other and live with their parents and they're almost 40 years old. Some will say that's a stereotype but frankly I don't know a whole lot of people who pull their 40 hours, married with kids and commitments thing who can call themselves hardcore. Frankly saying you're hardcore is like saying you've given up on the rest of life...that's obviously my opinion tho.
Since when do you need to be some hardcore gamer that plays 40+ hours a week just to care about the community and respect your fellow players?
You don't. I've always met plenty of casual players in MMO's who were just as considerate if not more so than "hardcore" players. The problem makers in communities are the people who like the person I quoted just don't care. They are in their "virtual bubble" and have no consequences for their actions.
They can be rude, they can rip people off for their time and contributions. they can rudely abandon groups with not even as much of an excuse as to why they have to leave the rest of the people they were playing "with" stranded and wasting their time.
It has nothing to do with how hardcore you game, it has to do with your personal character. As he said F2P games are heaven for people like him, because he can just "beat" the game and move on. He doesn't even have to pay anything most of the time.
So what is the benefit of him playing an MMO for everyone else but him? He's a freeloader, he's a leech on the resources of the developers, and he admits he is antagonistic towards the community that plays the games. I mean how is it a good thing to have the "higher population" f2p conversions promise when this is the kind of players you are going to be playing with.
Well, I would think (and I say this because I don't pretend to know statistics) that he is in fact the minority. F2P wouldn't be happening and frankly WORKING if his type was the majority. yeah, sadly his type is far more likely to rear their hideously trollish heads in F2P games, but they'll, as he admitted, get bored easy and run off soon enough.
So, what good is he? Nothing really. However his type is no reason to stop a system that's clearly working for a LOT of games.
>>Have you noticed how there are hundreds of MMO but they all die off in a matter of months.<<
Including P2P mmos. So it's not a problem of F2P, is it?
>>Have you noticed that people jump from MMO to MMO.<<
Yes, because I have no interest in "investing" my life into a game. I'm playing MMOs to have a bit of fun after work, if my family life allows me. Then (after a couple of months of casual playing) I've seen everything this MMO has to offer, I'm getting bored, I'm going to another one.
There is no power in the world that will make me log in to repeat "dailies" or to "raid" or another pointless boring idiotism. There is no "end game" for me because the game has ended; it's over; there is no, and never will be, nothing further of interest for me in this game.
>>Have you noticed how communities in MMO are dead, no one really gives a damn anymore.<<
Because I'm not looking for freaking friends in MMOs. I'm not interesting in developing relationships or "investing" in the "community". I have family and real-life friends, I barely have enough time to invest in relationships with THEM, MMO communities may go hang themselves.
>>Have you noticed how you seem to level to the cap in a matter of weeks.<<
No, I haven't. Having only time to play a couple of hours 2-3 times a week I haven't ever felt that.
It's simply not your world anymore, MMOs. It's mine now. You are a dead end; go die off somewhere in the "hardcore" MMOs.
Not sure if your giving examples of what is happening or if you are explaining your personal feelings?
My personal feelings, which are, in my opinion, very good examples of what is happening.
Wow gee you sound like a great guy to play with.
Why don't you just go play a single player game. You bring nothing to a multiplayer game, I don't want to play with you. Thank god you only hop around crappy F2P titles.
I actually kind of agree with him, tho in a less harsh and sandy little butthole kind of way. Life just isn't the same as it was for us back then. The people who supported that "hardcore" mode are grown up now, have kids, families and careers. The games coming out now cater to them because there's more of us than the remnant hardcore group, there's simply more money in catering to us than them.
Would I love to find an MMO that could keep my attention 100% of the time (when I can Play) sure, of course I would, but that kind of game just won't exist. By the very design of those kinds of games, I believe that only putting in a bit of time here and there prevents us from feeling like we're "accomplishing" anything, so we stop playing. Meanwhile games now offer us ways to feel like we're doing something in an hour or so, but of course that comes with the downside that we're going to chew thru the content in a few months of casual play (Or weeks of hardcore if you're that guy).
MMOs are less than what they were simply because of the people playing them. I'm not saying there isn't hardcore players, I'm just saying that your market share is much smaller than the casual one and companies are out to make money, not go all chairty so a small group can have a game for a while.
Games are going to come and go now for as long as the genre lasts, and it will last for a long long time yet. The trick now is that as gamers we demand more for less and we expect to get it because we can just abandon one game and go to another in literally the blink of a download. Companies have to walk a fine line to give gamers something they'll enjoy.
As far as community goes, when I play a game I look to find people to play it with, fun folks who share a common sense of humor and set of goals. However when I leave the game do I feel like I've lost family or something? No, I never want to know anyones real names or dig into personal details. We're friends, but not the kind who are going to hang out on sundays and grill steaks.
Anyhow, gaming is what it is. Take it for what you can and if you can't enjoy it then don't play it. Easy as that, all these folks whining and moaning about how things weren't how they were 10 years ago need to realize that's the case with everything and it's still changing. You sound like my grandmother when you say stuff like this.
As an aside, I know 2 "hardcore" gamers that I consider friends. They are both jobless, have no significant other and live with their parents and they're almost 40 years old. Some will say that's a stereotype but frankly I don't know a whole lot of people who pull their 40 hours, married with kids and commitments thing who can call themselves hardcore. Frankly saying you're hardcore is like saying you've given up on the rest of life...that's obviously my opinion tho.
I agree with you that game developers need to walk a fine line between making stuff too easy and too hard. The problem is the players that never played an MMO to play an MMO. They want a lobby based game or a single player game for them. That is the problem MMO players will do one of two things. Be like you make friends in your current game and call it good when you leave and then you repeat the cycle or they are going to make friends that will follow them from game to game. Example is someone like me. I have had friends going as far back as UO and SWG that I sill play with today. Some of my friends in MMOs I would gladly meet up and have a BBQ with them because we are all the same type of people. We get a long well and play to have fun together. It reminds me of my hockey teams I played on back in my late teens early 20s.
The key to the casual players like myself is looking at a game that will make the content a PROCESS that a group of players share together. Not queue up and meet 12 year old harry who wants to tell you to GO GO GO and give him the loot. The market will be much better with just people who want to play MMOs and expect some kind of effort required and community being involved. Not lets pay for Skyrim online because its a single player game. That's what is causing the industries problems.
While I think there is some truth to what you are saying. The market has grown exponentially by tens of millions of players and billions of dollars because of those people.
While you say it would be better to not have them, I say if they left the entire MMO industry would collapse. The market has become dependent on them.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
While the pc market is a concern I don't think it's as big a concern as you make out. The PC industry is still a multi multi billion dollar industry as is the MMO industry.
And MMO's are and will continue to be made for tablets and tablets are becoming more powerfull all the time.
I don't think the MMO industry will de, or even hiccup really, because of PC's.
Wrong. How long do you think that publishers will last dropping $100 Million into a game to only get 20 to 30 Million in revenue a year before operating cost? Then going F2P to hope to make up the money in an investment? It cannot happen because if the publisher is not making money why keep their doors open? They will not.
Will it work in Tablets? Different world and I can tell you from playing Little Empires as well as other games they are not expensive to develop and there will always be people impulse buying on them games. however for the majority like me I will not spend a cent on a tablet game. So the 30 people that are spending hundreds a month on the game will pay off a game that took 2 or 3 Million to make. You will not see $100 Million tablet games any time soon.
Well most publishers and games did not spend 100 million developing an MMO, those are still the ultra expensive ones so your first point is moot.
2ndly tablets are becoming more powerful and very common, I do expect to see tens of millions of dollars spent on MMO's for them (the average cost of a game)
3rdly what was I wrong about? I said that MMO's will not experience a hiccup due to the PC, not that MMO's won't have trouble with other areas.
True most publishers didnt spend 100 Million developing an MMO. Today there are more and more. Look at defiance, north of $100 mill to make that game and the TV show.
Yea Tablets would be good for Lobby and single player games. Some small MMO games like Little Empire however they will never spend $100 million on a game. Well maybe not in the next decade. One day when cost are that high yes.
I think MMOs will be due to the player base wanting a Single Player game in a MMO format that is just a Single player game. Like for the most part SWTOR is a single player game. Its not what MMOs use to be.
While I think there is some truth to what you are saying. The market has grown exponentially by tens of millions of players and billions of dollars because of those people.
While you say it would be better to not have them, I say if they left the entire MMO industry would collapse. The market has become dependent on them.
What I am saying is the MMO industry will go through a type of collapse. Why do I say that? Too many publishers have invested too much money into MMOs and are either not making a profit or are making a small profit that the businesses will be better closing these games down. Take Trion for example they they have what, North of $100 Million sunk in Defiance. If I remember correctly 80 Million in End of Nations. I would have to say though I dont have proof yet about 30 to 50 Million on Storm Legion. All of this money went into these MMOs in the last what 3 to 4 years? Trion is not making that money back right now. They are trying hard to get new players into Defiance. How can this model be sustainable? In short its not so what will happen is a publisher like this could close because too much investments and not enough revenues coming in.
While I think there is some truth to what you are saying. The market has grown exponentially by tens of millions of players and billions of dollars because of those people.
While you say it would be better to not have them, I say if they left the entire MMO industry would collapse. The market has become dependent on them.
What I am saying is the MMO industry will go through a type of collapse. Why do I say that? Too many publishers have invested too much money into MMOs and are either not making a profit or are making a small profit that the businesses will be better closing these games down. Take Trion for example they they have what, North of $100 Million sunk in Defiance. If I remember correctly 80 Million in End of Nations. I would have to say though I dont have proof yet about 30 to 50 Million on Storm Legion. All of this money went into these MMOs in the last what 3 to 4 years? Trion is not making that money back right now. They are trying hard to get new players into Defiance. How can this model be sustainable? In short its not so what will happen is a publisher like this could close because too much investments and not enough revenues coming in.
Or the F2P games that are doing poorly will shut down and the F2P games that are doing well will continue to be as strong as ever. You know, just like what happened with P2P games before F2P was the popular option.
Your idea that everything will collapse at once is a fantasy. It's not based in reality. You may be correct to say that the market isn't large enough to sustain like 9 million F2P games, but to extrapolate that assumption to a total collapse of the payment model is just a fantasy.
While I think there is some truth to what you are saying. The market has grown exponentially by tens of millions of players and billions of dollars because of those people.
While you say it would be better to not have them, I say if they left the entire MMO industry would collapse. The market has become dependent on them.
What I am saying is the MMO industry will go through a type of collapse. Why do I say that? Too many publishers have invested too much money into MMOs and are either not making a profit or are making a small profit that the businesses will be better closing these games down. Take Trion for example they they have what, North of $100 Million sunk in Defiance. If I remember correctly 80 Million in End of Nations. I would have to say though I dont have proof yet about 30 to 50 Million on Storm Legion. All of this money went into these MMOs in the last what 3 to 4 years? Trion is not making that money back right now. They are trying hard to get new players into Defiance. How can this model be sustainable? In short its not so what will happen is a publisher like this could close because too much investments and not enough revenues coming in.
Or the F2P games that are doing poorly will shut down and the F2P games that are doing well will continue to be as strong as ever. You know, just like what happened with P2P games before F2P was the popular option.
Your idea that everything will collapse at once is a fantasy. It's not based in reality. You may be correct to say that the market isn't large enough to sustain like 9 million F2P games, but to extrapolate that assumption to a total collapse of the payment model is just a fantasy.
And what would you call it if half the MMOs are closed in 3 years and several new MMOs that were being designed were terminated or put on hold? What would you call that? I call that a deck of cards that collapsed. Yes Good F2P and P2P games will survive however not as many as we see today. Too many publishers have too much invested in too many MMOs right now. Closing 2 or 3 will not fix it when there are 50+ MMOs on the market and if you add in all the browser based MMOs what like 400+ . So no its not a fantasy its realistic that the publisher base as well as the amount of MMOs out there will come down. Just look at from 1980 until about 2000 on how many Gaming publishers either closed or were bought by other publishers. The same thing will happen to the MMO industry. You can call it downsizing, collapsing or what ever. It still will be a major change from the industry of today.
While I think there is some truth to what you are saying. The market has grown exponentially by tens of millions of players and billions of dollars because of those people.
While you say it would be better to not have them, I say if they left the entire MMO industry would collapse. The market has become dependent on them.
What I am saying is the MMO industry will go through a type of collapse. Why do I say that? Too many publishers have invested too much money into MMOs and are either not making a profit or are making a small profit that the businesses will be better closing these games down. Take Trion for example they they have what, North of $100 Million sunk in Defiance. If I remember correctly 80 Million in End of Nations. I would have to say though I dont have proof yet about 30 to 50 Million on Storm Legion. All of this money went into these MMOs in the last what 3 to 4 years? Trion is not making that money back right now. They are trying hard to get new players into Defiance. How can this model be sustainable? In short its not so what will happen is a publisher like this could close because too much investments and not enough revenues coming in.
Or the F2P games that are doing poorly will shut down and the F2P games that are doing well will continue to be as strong as ever. You know, just like what happened with P2P games before F2P was the popular option.
Your idea that everything will collapse at once is a fantasy. It's not based in reality. You may be correct to say that the market isn't large enough to sustain like 9 million F2P games, but to extrapolate that assumption to a total collapse of the payment model is just a fantasy.
And what would you call it if half the MMOs are closed in 3 years and several new MMOs that were being designed were terminated or put on hold? What would you call that? I call that a deck of cards that collapsed. Yes Good F2P and P2P games will survive however not as many as we see today. Too many publishers have too much invested in too many MMOs right now. Closing 2 or 3 will not fix it when there are 50+ MMOs on the market and if you add in all the browser based MMOs what like 400+ . So no its not a fantasy its realistic that the publisher base as well as the amount of MMOs out there will come down. Just look at from 1980 until about 2000 on how many Gaming publishers either closed or were bought by other publishers. The same thing will happen to the MMO industry. You can call it downsizing, collapsing or what ever. It still will be a major change from the industry of today.
While I think there is some truth to what you are saying. The market has grown exponentially by tens of millions of players and billions of dollars because of those people.
While you say it would be better to not have them, I say if they left the entire MMO industry would collapse. The market has become dependent on them.
What I am saying is the MMO industry will go through a type of collapse. Why do I say that? Too many publishers have invested too much money into MMOs and are either not making a profit or are making a small profit that the businesses will be better closing these games down. Take Trion for example they they have what, North of $100 Million sunk in Defiance. If I remember correctly 80 Million in End of Nations. I would have to say though I dont have proof yet about 30 to 50 Million on Storm Legion. All of this money went into these MMOs in the last what 3 to 4 years? Trion is not making that money back right now. They are trying hard to get new players into Defiance. How can this model be sustainable? In short its not so what will happen is a publisher like this could close because too much investments and not enough revenues coming in.
Or the F2P games that are doing poorly will shut down and the F2P games that are doing well will continue to be as strong as ever. You know, just like what happened with P2P games before F2P was the popular option.
Your idea that everything will collapse at once is a fantasy. It's not based in reality. You may be correct to say that the market isn't large enough to sustain like 9 million F2P games, but to extrapolate that assumption to a total collapse of the payment model is just a fantasy.
And what would you call it if half the MMOs are closed in 3 years and several new MMOs that were being designed were terminated or put on hold? What would you call that? I call that a deck of cards that collapsed. Yes Good F2P and P2P games will survive however not as many as we see today. Too many publishers have too much invested in too many MMOs right now. Closing 2 or 3 will not fix it when there are 50+ MMOs on the market and if you add in all the browser based MMOs what like 400+ . So no its not a fantasy its realistic that the publisher base as well as the amount of MMOs out there will come down. Just look at from 1980 until about 2000 on how many Gaming publishers either closed or were bought by other publishers. The same thing will happen to the MMO industry. You can call it downsizing, collapsing or what ever. It still will be a major change from the industry of today.
I would call that a fantasy.
Thats because you lack logical thinking and any ability to do your own research. So you are going to go with NOPE YOUR WRONG YOUR FANTASY! If you had spent time looking at the MMO publishers, the amount invested and the amount of revenue coming in you would see that it does not add up. So keep flapping your gums.
It has nothing to do with how hardcore you game, it has to do with your personal character. As he said F2P games are heaven for people like him, because he can just "beat" the game and move on. He doesn't even have to pay anything most of the time.
So what is the benefit of him playing an MMO for everyone else but him? He's a freeloader, he's a leech on the resources of the developers, and he admits he is antagonistic towards the community that plays the games. I mean how is it a good thing to have the "higher population" f2p conversions promise when this is the kind of players you are going to be playing with.
Hm? You are reading too much into my post. I'm perfectly okay to drop $20-$30 at the F2P game I'm currently interested in and playing, so I'm pretty much exactly what developers hope for when they made the game.
Also, I'm not "antagonistic" towards community at large; I'm indifferent to it. When I'm playing in groups, I'm not particularly rude or inconsiderate, unless people I'm playing with are complete and utter dolts. I'm antagonistic to people with their heads up their backsides, which, by the way, describes the vast majority of posters on this site, so after reading a thread or two here I become extremely abrasive.
So, about groups - even though I'm not inconsiderate or rude, I'm not trying to develop any relationships, befriend anyone or form a lasting group or guild - because it's useless. I'll log in next time in 2 or 3 days; by that time everyone else would either level ahead or behind me; I'll never see any of them again. So what's the point of "community" for me? It's irrelevant for me; I'm perfectly okay with autogrouping and random matching, because I'm not going to waste an hour trying to make a group.
*shrug* you say, that "MMOs are not for me", but the fact is, I'm the market. I'm the norm. It's you, "hardcores", who are the outlier; it's you who are in the wrong genre. MMOs are not for you anymore. Deal with it.
Yes, MMOs die because F2P MMOs are a far better option so they are killing P2P MMOs. Granted, some free models suck. But Aion, TERA, GW2 (buy to play) and soon to be RIFT are all amazing free models. They offer FAR more than what a pay to play game would offer.
Heck, most pay to play MMOs have cash shops anyway...even if its usually vanity stuff...they still have cash shops. Heck, EVE had that stupidely expensive monocole thing in their cash shop, I lolled so hard when I saw the price. Same with WoWs vanity pets/mounts. Cause I could buy stuff in GW2 for FAR cheaper and get way more out of it.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
Thats because you lack logical thinking and any ability to do your own research. So you are going to go with NOPE YOUR WRONG YOUR FANTASY! If you had spent time looking at the MMO publishers, the amount invested and the amount of revenue coming in you would see that it does not add up. So keep flapping your gums.
Since it's you who've made the postulate, it's up to you to support it with research, data and links. Not up to him. So do it. Support what you've said.
Ah, what am I talking about. A mmorpg.com poster understanding the basics of debating? Forget it. Not enough brain capacity and education.
Originally posted by Jemcrystal Mabinogi is an excellent f2p model and it still has people playing from when the game first came out.
Ah, but Mabinogi also isn't a linear, derivative, uninspired themepark MMO that we've all seen a gazillion times. Funny how that works, isn't it? I'd consider it my favorite MMORPG of all time and it's the only MMORPG I've played for more than a few weeks. My longest stretch 6 was months or so, and I've gone back to it several times over the last few years. There's nothing quite like it on the market.
If developers attempted to make their game unique instead of wasting millions of dollars and years trying to out-do World of Warcraft, maybe the genre wouldn't be in such a tough spot. Instead, let's blame the economy or payment models! It's a convenient excuse for companies to make when their sub-par product fails miserably.
Comments
While the pc market is a concern I don't think it's as big a concern as you make out. The PC industry is still a multi multi billion dollar industry as is the MMO industry.
And MMO's are and will continue to be made for tablets and tablets are becoming more powerfull all the time.
I don't think the MMO industry will de, or even hiccup really, because of PC's.
Well I am going to say this. I am partly in the same boat you are with having a family, I work full time and I also working on a BS degree in CIS. After that I plan to go for an MBA.
You are right when you say that there are a lot of players not willing to invest their life into a game. Many gamers do only get a few hours a week to be able to play. That is the current market however there is a difference between what the Market is right now and what the market should be to maintain a health MMO genera. Right now the genera is not health at all, and we will see publishers closing in the next few years. They are just investing too much money for little or no profit period, and thats due to too many MMOs out there. They are trying to make an MMO good enough to single/mutiplayer types because they need that business to try to make a profit. Honestly this is the core issue right now with MMOs period. Trying to cater to a Lobby based market that does not embody what MMOS have been or should be.
You are also right that the MMO player base right now wants nothing to do with community. That also goes back to the root problem of too many games and needing to bring in NON MMO type players into the genera. Lets face it before we had a saturated MMO Market community was the Key to a successful MMO. Friends brought their friends into a game and the chain reaction kept going. Thats how MMOs built their player base. Today they need to advertise to everyone and their brother to get players because the publisher invested 50 to 250 Million dollars into their game and they need to turn a profit.
So what do we have? A market that does not give one thought to what a TRUE MMO is. They are just playing throw away games in their minds and thats what the market has boiled down to. Its the truth. However the genera cannot and will not last going in this direction. I am sorry to say but if you are not playing a game you will invest some time and effort into (I am not talking hardcore 4 nights a week raiding) and invest into making friends. This is not the genera for you. This is WHY the genera is on a downward spiral. Because MMOs are designed around community and investing time that you feel attached to the game. Much like a Bowling team, or Poker night with the buddies on Saturday nights. If you dont care about what the genera means single player games or Multiplayer games like Neverwinter Nights 2 are for you. Not MMOs.
Now with that said how do I not feel the same as you with all I have going on in my life. Because my social time is with my friends that I been playing MMOs with for 5+ years. We know everything about each other, we become good friends and even though our lives are limiting our play time what we are doing come FFXIV is setting 2 days 3 at most aside for POKER GAME NIGHT. We get on, have an idea what to do for the night and go do it. From 830 to 11pm is our time to play and have fun shoot the shit and call it a night. The rest of the week is 100% for RL. How do we do it? Simple we manage our lives so that we have that time. Why? Simple if you do not have ME time guess what? You go nuts and your relationships hurt because of it. Give my finacee ME time when she wants. Her ME time is her reading her books. I make sure she gets that. She makes sure I get ME time to play a game with my friends.
To think the MMO world can sustain the current path is just folly too many games is just ruining the genera. Trying to get every tom dick and harry is not what the genera needs. It needs MMO players to be MMO players moving forward
[mod edit] Life just isn't the same as it was for us back then. The people who supported that "hardcore" mode are grown up now, have kids, families and careers. The games coming out now cater to them because there's more of us than the remnant hardcore group, there's simply more money in catering to us than them.
Would I love to find an MMO that could keep my attention 100% of the time (when I can Play) sure, of course I would, but that kind of game just won't exist. By the very design of those kinds of games, I believe that only putting in a bit of time here and there prevents us from feeling like we're "accomplishing" anything, so we stop playing. Meanwhile games now offer us ways to feel like we're doing something in an hour or so, but of course that comes with the downside that we're going to chew thru the content in a few months of casual play (Or weeks of hardcore if you're that guy).
MMOs are less than what they were simply because of the people playing them. I'm not saying there isn't hardcore players, I'm just saying that your market share is much smaller than the casual one and companies are out to make money, not go all chairty so a small group can have a game for a while.
Games are going to come and go now for as long as the genre lasts, and it will last for a long long time yet. The trick now is that as gamers we demand more for less and we expect to get it because we can just abandon one game and go to another in literally the blink of a download. Companies have to walk a fine line to give gamers something they'll enjoy.
As far as community goes, when I play a game I look to find people to play it with, fun folks who share a common sense of humor and set of goals. However when I leave the game do I feel like I've lost family or something? No, I never want to know anyones real names or dig into personal details. We're friends, but not the kind who are going to hang out on sundays and grill steaks.
Anyhow, gaming is what it is. Take it for what you can and if you can't enjoy it then don't play it. Easy as that, all these folks whining and moaning about how things weren't how they were 10 years ago need to realize that's the case with everything and it's still changing. You sound like my grandmother when you say stuff like this.
As an aside, I know 2 "hardcore" gamers that I consider friends. They are both jobless, have no significant other and live with their parents and they're almost 40 years old. Some will say that's a stereotype but frankly I don't know a whole lot of people who pull their 40 hours, married with kids and commitments thing who can call themselves hardcore. Frankly saying you're hardcore is like saying you've given up on the rest of life...that's obviously my opinion tho.
Well, at this point we are talking about MMOs as a PC dominated market. Perhaps in the future MMos can be played on something else but for not this is what we have.
I think you are missing my point though. While PC right now are the main engine of MMOs, and the PC market is very big still, it is shrinking very rapidly.
As I said, the guys who finance games do not like to give money to projects tied to a shrinking customer base. Especially when you look at the rate at which it is shrinking. It is expected that in 2017 tablet sales will surpass PC completely.
Furthermore, many analysts have claimed the PC sales drop has been hit hardest by home PC users. Offices still use old boxes being notoriously cheap and slow with upgrades when compared to home users. In 2014, Microsoft is stopping all support for windows XP, which is still largely used by businesses around the world. Many predict that rather than upgrade to a new version of windows at a large cost, many businesses will move on completely from the PC.
I fully expect MMOs to survive, and eventually I am sure they will thrive. But, it wont happen until MMOs and PCs are separated from each other. New consoles may be the answer. Ones that can process the information needed to have massive players. They are more console/pc hybrids. Or, it could be tablets, but that would mean we are a way off because current tablets are nowhere near capable.
Either way, PC mmos are dieing and people can guess all they want about why but the numbers and indicators clearly show that the reason is more obvious than people want to admit. The engine that people use to play MMOs is dieing.
Have you noticed how there are hundreds of MMO but they all die off in a matter of months.
They die off because levelling is way way too fast at hitting cap. They need to give themselves some leeway and time to come up with some decent cap level content (not rushed after several months of waiting).
Have you noticed that people jump from MMO to MMO.
Boredom (because they hit cap level in a week) and have done end content a fair few times they have lost interest.
Have you noticed how communities in MMO are dead, no one really gives a damn anymore.
yeah, I have
Have you noticed how you seem to level to the cap in a matter of weeks.
most definatly
Wrong. How long do you think that publishers will last dropping $100 Million into a game to only get 20 to 30 Million in revenue a year before operating cost? Then going F2P to hope to make up the money in an investment? It cannot happen because if the publisher is not making money why keep their doors open? They will not.
Will it work in Tablets? Different world and I can tell you from playing Little Empires as well as other games they are not expensive to develop and there will always be people impulse buying on them games. however for the majority like me I will not spend a cent on a tablet game. So the 30 people that are spending hundreds a month on the game will pay off a game that took 2 or 3 Million to make. You will not see $100 Million tablet games any time soon.
Show me the studies that say you're the majority.
That's what I thought.
*Edited cuz I was being a douche*.
I know 25 euro ain't peanuts, I'm from Belgium but still for a great game i'd be willing to pay that much.
the steel shines red with enemy blood. It sings of victory, granted by the gods. And as they return bleeding but proud, the horizon burns and the song is ringing LOUD!
Keep in mind that Pre WoW 500k subs whas an absolute dream number for mmo studio's.
Post WoW a mmo fails if it doesnt even reach 2 million.
What changed ?
Greed - Community - Investors - Shareholders
WoW when breaking 500k subs had a wicked awesome community just like UO / EQ.
Dev's loved to interact with players and hearing feedback.
Then Blizzard changed and the whole industry changed with it.
Activision and suits went for a cash cow milking product.
fast forward 2013:
More revenue is made with BtP / FtP, afterall 200k subs is stressfull for players are it will create many empty servers.
FtP also fills up those servers with a constand inflow of new players.
While with subs you reach a peak and it diminsish from there with lower and lower sub numbers each year.
One thing is sure ftp aint the devil its the greed from cash shop creators that can make a mmo look bad and pushing the industry into the wrong direction.
BtP mmo's like GW2 show that a studio can also create a rock solid mmo and make good profits.
Even with a cash shop added !
And dont forget in the old days you dint raly have a choice, you where an mmo player, the most niche market in gaming.
MMO's where created by nerds for nerds, profit wasnt up there, but the love for community where nerds could gather and be nerds.
So i think the OP is right and wrong in his post.
But its much more complicated then it used to be
Well most publishers and games did not spend 100 million developing an MMO, those are still the ultra expensive ones so your first point is moot.
2ndly tablets are becoming more powerful and very common, I do expect to see tens of millions of dollars spent on MMO's for them (the average cost of a game)
3rdly what was I wrong about? I said that MMO's will not experience a hiccup due to the PC, not that MMO's won't have trouble with other areas.
I agree with you that game developers need to walk a fine line between making stuff too easy and too hard. The problem is the players that never played an MMO to play an MMO. They want a lobby based game or a single player game for them. That is the problem MMO players will do one of two things. Be like you make friends in your current game and call it good when you leave and then you repeat the cycle or they are going to make friends that will follow them from game to game. Example is someone like me. I have had friends going as far back as UO and SWG that I sill play with today. Some of my friends in MMOs I would gladly meet up and have a BBQ with them because we are all the same type of people. We get a long well and play to have fun together. It reminds me of my hockey teams I played on back in my late teens early 20s.
The key to the casual players like myself is looking at a game that will make the content a PROCESS that a group of players share together. Not queue up and meet 12 year old harry who wants to tell you to GO GO GO and give him the loot. The market will be much better with just people who want to play MMOs and expect some kind of effort required and community being involved. Not lets pay for Skyrim online because its a single player game. That's what is causing the industries problems.
Well, I would think (and I say this because I don't pretend to know statistics) that he is in fact the minority. F2P wouldn't be happening and frankly WORKING if his type was the majority. yeah, sadly his type is far more likely to rear their hideously trollish heads in F2P games, but they'll, as he admitted, get bored easy and run off soon enough.
So, what good is he? Nothing really. However his type is no reason to stop a system that's clearly working for a LOT of games.
While I think there is some truth to what you are saying. The market has grown exponentially by tens of millions of players and billions of dollars because of those people.
While you say it would be better to not have them, I say if they left the entire MMO industry would collapse. The market has become dependent on them.
True most publishers didnt spend 100 Million developing an MMO. Today there are more and more. Look at defiance, north of $100 mill to make that game and the TV show.
Yea Tablets would be good for Lobby and single player games. Some small MMO games like Little Empire however they will never spend $100 million on a game. Well maybe not in the next decade. One day when cost are that high yes.
I think MMOs will be due to the player base wanting a Single Player game in a MMO format that is just a Single player game. Like for the most part SWTOR is a single player game. Its not what MMOs use to be.
What I am saying is the MMO industry will go through a type of collapse. Why do I say that? Too many publishers have invested too much money into MMOs and are either not making a profit or are making a small profit that the businesses will be better closing these games down. Take Trion for example they they have what, North of $100 Million sunk in Defiance. If I remember correctly 80 Million in End of Nations. I would have to say though I dont have proof yet about 30 to 50 Million on Storm Legion. All of this money went into these MMOs in the last what 3 to 4 years? Trion is not making that money back right now. They are trying hard to get new players into Defiance. How can this model be sustainable? In short its not so what will happen is a publisher like this could close because too much investments and not enough revenues coming in.
Or the F2P games that are doing poorly will shut down and the F2P games that are doing well will continue to be as strong as ever. You know, just like what happened with P2P games before F2P was the popular option.
Your idea that everything will collapse at once is a fantasy. It's not based in reality. You may be correct to say that the market isn't large enough to sustain like 9 million F2P games, but to extrapolate that assumption to a total collapse of the payment model is just a fantasy.
Hundreds die in months? It's a wonder there are any left to play.
And what would you call it if half the MMOs are closed in 3 years and several new MMOs that were being designed were terminated or put on hold? What would you call that? I call that a deck of cards that collapsed. Yes Good F2P and P2P games will survive however not as many as we see today. Too many publishers have too much invested in too many MMOs right now. Closing 2 or 3 will not fix it when there are 50+ MMOs on the market and if you add in all the browser based MMOs what like 400+ . So no its not a fantasy its realistic that the publisher base as well as the amount of MMOs out there will come down. Just look at from 1980 until about 2000 on how many Gaming publishers either closed or were bought by other publishers. The same thing will happen to the MMO industry. You can call it downsizing, collapsing or what ever. It still will be a major change from the industry of today.
I would call that a fantasy.
Thats because you lack logical thinking and any ability to do your own research. So you are going to go with NOPE YOUR WRONG YOUR FANTASY! If you had spent time looking at the MMO publishers, the amount invested and the amount of revenue coming in you would see that it does not add up. So keep flapping your gums.
Hm? You are reading too much into my post. I'm perfectly okay to drop $20-$30 at the F2P game I'm currently interested in and playing, so I'm pretty much exactly what developers hope for when they made the game.
Also, I'm not "antagonistic" towards community at large; I'm indifferent to it. When I'm playing in groups, I'm not particularly rude or inconsiderate, unless people I'm playing with are complete and utter dolts. I'm antagonistic to people with their heads up their backsides, which, by the way, describes the vast majority of posters on this site, so after reading a thread or two here I become extremely abrasive.
So, about groups - even though I'm not inconsiderate or rude, I'm not trying to develop any relationships, befriend anyone or form a lasting group or guild - because it's useless. I'll log in next time in 2 or 3 days; by that time everyone else would either level ahead or behind me; I'll never see any of them again. So what's the point of "community" for me? It's irrelevant for me; I'm perfectly okay with autogrouping and random matching, because I'm not going to waste an hour trying to make a group.
*shrug* you say, that "MMOs are not for me", but the fact is, I'm the market. I'm the norm. It's you, "hardcores", who are the outlier; it's you who are in the wrong genre. MMOs are not for you anymore. Deal with it.
Yes, MMOs die because F2P MMOs are a far better option so they are killing P2P MMOs. Granted, some free models suck. But Aion, TERA, GW2 (buy to play) and soon to be RIFT are all amazing free models. They offer FAR more than what a pay to play game would offer.
Heck, most pay to play MMOs have cash shops anyway...even if its usually vanity stuff...they still have cash shops. Heck, EVE had that stupidely expensive monocole thing in their cash shop, I lolled so hard when I saw the price. Same with WoWs vanity pets/mounts. Cause I could buy stuff in GW2 for FAR cheaper and get way more out of it.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
Since it's you who've made the postulate, it's up to you to support it with research, data and links. Not up to him. So do it. Support what you've said.
Ah, what am I talking about. A mmorpg.com poster understanding the basics of debating? Forget it. Not enough brain capacity and education.
Ah, but Mabinogi also isn't a linear, derivative, uninspired themepark MMO that we've all seen a gazillion times. Funny how that works, isn't it? I'd consider it my favorite MMORPG of all time and it's the only MMORPG I've played for more than a few weeks. My longest stretch 6 was months or so, and I've gone back to it several times over the last few years. There's nothing quite like it on the market.
If developers attempted to make their game unique instead of wasting millions of dollars and years trying to out-do World of Warcraft, maybe the genre wouldn't be in such a tough spot. Instead, let's blame the economy or payment models! It's a convenient excuse for companies to make when their sub-par product fails miserably.