Originally posted by tkreep isnt the result of f2p happens because the mmo dies as a p2p?
Speak not those words. This isn't a thread for logic.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
imho it's the result of an over-saturated genre. Way too many games and folks just aren't willing to just stick around long enough to form long term social bonds anymore.
Nope - it is because people are trying to relive their first MMO experience/feeling. They will bounce and complain about it but not stick around to actually give a game a chance.
imho it's the result of an over-saturated genre. Way too many games and folks just aren't willing to just stick around long enough to form long term social bonds anymore.
Nope - it is because people are trying to relive their first MMO experience/feeling. They will bounce and complain about it but not stick around to actually give a game a chance.
Exactly my thoughts too. I have to say I am guilty of this sometimes too. I do try my best to get into the games atmosphere by reading up on it's lore, trying to craft, and enjoy pve as much as possible. The lure of thousands of other games calls, and it is easier than not to slip away and start something else.
We need one fantasy, one sci-fi, and one steam punk title per category and thats all! lol
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
it is because people are trying to relive their first MMO experience/feeling. They will bounce and complain about it but not stick around to actually give a game a chance.
That's not right, people who played old MMO are a tiny percentage of the MMO playerbase.
F2P likely allows people to bounce from MMO to MMO.
P2P is an investment, you invest in the game and the people who play it, F2P is like a one night stand for most players, they play the games as if they were single player games.
My guess is that letting F2P die is part of the business strategy. They want as much money as fast as possible before players leave the game, it's easiest to get money from people while they're leveling up, the faster you level the more of a race it becomes for some and you end up with players spending hundreds of dollars in a few weeks. After that neither the players or the company care about the game anymore.
it is because people are trying to relive their first MMO experience/feeling. They will bounce and complain about it but not stick around to actually give a game a chance.
That's not right, people who played old MMO are a tiny percentage of the MMO playerbase.
F2P likely allows people to bounce from MMO to MMO.
P2P is an investment, you invest in the game and the people who play it, F2P is like a one night stand for most players, they play the games as if they were single player games.
To me, there seems to be something wrong with a game if the main reason you get people to keep playing, is that they feel obligated to, because of a sub.
Not to mention most MMOs goes F2P eventually anyway, so most will just wait for that to happen, and not adopt it at launch. It kinda becomes a self fulfilling prophecy in that regard.
To me, there seems to be something wrong with a game if the main reason you get people to keep playing, is that they feel obligated to, because of a sub.
Not really, the strongest relationships are all formed under artificial conditions, I know of no natural conditions in which a community grows.
-prison bonds: artificially forced environment
-school bonds: artificially forced environment
-bus / train: artitficially forced environment
-restaurant: artificially forced environment
When people say it's the fault of the players that there's no community, I say wrong, it's the fault of the game. The way the game works, the way it monetizes, the way it enforces grouping, either creates an environment of longevity or a transient experience, F2P are transient.
The mere fact you need to pay an upfront cost by buying the game in P2P means people are more willing to build a community, in F2P 90% of the players will stop playing anyway so why even build a community that is going to fall apart anyway.
To me, there seems to be something wrong with a game if the main reason you get people to keep playing, is that they feel obligated to, because of a sub.
Not really, the strongest relationships are all formed under artificial conditions, I know of no natural conditions in which a community grows.
-prison bonds: artificially forced environment
-school bonds: artificially forced environment
-bus / train: artitficially forced environment
-restaurant: artificially forced environment
When people say it's the fault of the players that there's no community, I say wrong, it's the fault of the game. The way the game works, the way it monetizes, the way it enforces grouping, either creates an environment of longevity or a transient experience, F2P are transient.
The mere fact you need to pay an upfront cost by buying the game in P2P means people are more willing to build a community, in F2P 90% of the players will stop playing anyway so why even build a community that is going to fall apart anyway.
Ive played a couple of mmo's P2P and your ssumption that people are willing to invest in good community its just FALSE thus not true.
Only one i can remember when it still was payed sub was Sage of Ryzom community and early days of Asheron's call 2.
Darkfall 1 was awesome game could been awesome community small group realy tried making it great(EU-1 server) but on massive scale cheaters exploiters and afk macrobastards ruined game totally(no reason to cheat at all ive played 2.5 years DFO 1 and never cheated/exploit/macroed ones)gamers aslo ruin mmo's.
Ive played a couple of mmo's P2P and your ssumption that people are willing to invest in good community its just FALSE thus not true.
When your account depends on your behavior on the forum and in the game, people do invest in a community.
A F2P allows you to be a jerk to other people, it allows you to be a stick in the wheel instead of a cog. Most F2P go one step further and allow you to change your name on the fly, making you completely anonymous.
P2P is an investment, of your time, your money, and the result is a better community where reputation and your account matters.
People who play P2P pay a high upfront game cost, $50 or more, just to enter the game. People who play F2P are often there to "check it out", often without any intention of staying, often with the intention to cause trouble.
In fact I have heard people say many times in F2P: "I don't care if they ban me, I'll just make a new account"
The account in F2P has no value, the game has no value, F2P are transient. And even if there are player there willing to invest time into a community, it's diluted by the number of people who don't care about community in F2P.
Ive played a couple of mmo's P2P and your ssumption that people are willing to invest in good community its just FALSE thus not true.
When your account depends on your behavior on the forum and in the game, people do invest in a community.
A F2P allows you to be a jerk to other people, it allows you to be a stick in the wheel instead of a cog. Most F2P go one step further and allow you to change your name on the fly, making you completely anonymous.
P2P is an investment, of your time, your money, and the result is a better community where reputation and your account matters.
I agree with this 100%. You will always find bad apples in any situation, of course. But overall it's just a better experience when people have a reason to invest in the community.
I believe games go F2P because they are simply not good enough. World of Warcraft in a new skin. Every single MMO I have played since I left WoW, has felt like WoW, just with a new skin. The exception being EVE Online. THAT is why they go F2P. Players have done it all before. There's no depth, there's no longevity, there's no reason to stay in something they have essentially done a thousand times over, just with a new look.
Create something with depth, and something that entices players to want to stay for a long time, then you'll have people who want to invest. Both with their money, and in the community.
Modern MMO's have been shaped by the demands of the average MMO player.
The average player doesn't play one game for more than 2 to 3 months (if that long).
Levelling has to be fast, because if they can't "beat the game" (hit level cap) in under a month, they'll get bored and frustrated and hop to another game.
They prefer F2P, because they jump from game to game so often that B2P and P2P would be totally "unaffordable" for them. It would be unaffordable, because they also need cash to spend on all the console games they'll be buying between playing the F2P MMO's. Unfortunately, there's no way to play the new console games for "free"...
Ive played a couple of mmo's P2P and your ssumption that people are willing to invest in good community its just FALSE thus not true.
When your account depends on your behavior on the forum and in the game, people do invest in a community.
A F2P allows you to be a jerk to other people, it allows you to be a stick in the wheel instead of a cog. Most F2P go one step further and allow you to change your name on the fly, making you completely anonymous.
P2P is an investment, of your time, your money, and the result is a better community where reputation and your account matters.
People who play P2P pay a high upfront game cost, $50 or more, just to enter the game. People who play F2P are often there to "check it out", often without any intention of staying, often with the intention to cause trouble.
In fact I have heard people say many times in F2P: "I don't care if they ban me, I'll just make a new account"
The account in F2P has no value, the game has no value, F2P are transient. And even if there are player there willing to invest time into a community, it's diluted by the number of people who don't care about community in F2P.
I guess my issue is that most p2p mmos are also transient. Everything since WoW has seen high initial adoption with a fast drop off a month later after the first 30 days runs out, and often times horrible/nonexistant communities. The box price didnt really seem to do anything to stop people from dropping it.
I will agree that communities form under artificial conditions, but payment model is not one of those I would focus on, but rather player interdependancy. Have crafter type players who cant kill stuff well, killer type players who cant craft well, and all kinds of things in between. Anarchy Online was the last game I played that had a system like this. If you put points into your crafting skills, that took away from your combat skills. People needed certain classes for buffs, so that they could squeeze into the latest armor/weapons/implants. People would hang out selling buffs and tradeskills and just chat it up, since there was nothing else to do while spamming "WTS buffs!".
The first four sentences were topics of conversation before DDO's big F2P switch. Blaming F2P for a condition that existed before F2P was prevalent doesn't make much sense.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Have you noticed how there are hundreds of MMO but they all die off in a matter of months.
nope, i haven't. playing wow for nearly 8 years now.
Have you noticed that people jump from MMO to MMO.
did i mention i play wow for 8 years? also, all "other" mmos i play now and then are TSW and gw2, and i didn't jump from them either.
Have you noticed how communities in MMO are dead, no one really gives a damn anymore.
funny, my guild doesn't feel dead.
Have you noticed how you seem to level to the cap in a matter of weeks.
errr.... yea... no. took me 8 years to get my char in wow to where he is now :P
In a F2P MMO all the freeloaders bail the ship once they hit the paywall after a few weeks, the ones who get tired of having to pay to progress bail the ship a few weeks after, and the whales is all that's left, but they jump ship too once they realise they're competing against themselves and no longer have a monetary edge over freeloaders.
As a result, no one joins older F2P, since they would need to spend hundreds of dollars to compete with the whales. The MMO simply die.
As a result the quality of the MMO goes down too, since the companies make dying MMO after dying MMO, to rake in cash from the whales.
In China MMo last a couple of months, and they shut them down. This is the future of F2P MMO, completely meaningless casino adventures. Congorats.
imo it's not the f2p that's the blame, but the gamers.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Modern MMO's have been shaped by the demands of the average MMO player.
The average player doesn't play one game for more than 2 to 3 months (if that long).
Levelling has to be fast, because if they can't "beat the game" (hit level cap) in under a month, they'll get bored and frustrated and hop to another game.
They prefer F2P, because they jump from game to game so often that B2P and P2P would be totally "unaffordable" for them. It would be unaffordable, because they also need cash to spend on all the console games they'll be buying between playing the F2P MMO's. Unfortunately, there's no way to play the new console games for "free"...
why would I want free loaders in my game . I would make levelling super slow so that there are no flavour of the month gamers at end game , they would be dedicated players who put in time and effort to reap the rewards of end game .
if its FTP all the more reason to make levelling much longer and sell runes that give faster EXP ..
To me, there seems to be something wrong with a game if the main reason you get people to keep playing, is that they feel obligated to, because of a sub.
Not really, the strongest relationships are all formed under artificial conditions, I know of no natural conditions in which a community grows.
-prison bonds: artificially forced environment
-school bonds: artificially forced environment
-bus / train: artitficially forced environment
-restaurant: artificially forced environment
When people say it's the fault of the players that there's no community, I say wrong, it's the fault of the game. The way the game works, the way it monetizes, the way it enforces grouping, either creates an environment of longevity or a transient experience, F2P are transient.
The mere fact you need to pay an upfront cost by buying the game in P2P means people are more willing to build a community, in F2P 90% of the players will stop playing anyway so why even build a community that is going to fall apart anyway.
You're using 2 different aspects and calling them the same.
Forced interdependency builds communities, regardless of payment model. You didn't see players hopping around oldschool MMO's because they required a huge time investment, reliance on others for everything, and reputation meant everything. None of those factors apply to current MMO's regardless of model.
Sure the barrier to entry is removed because they're free, but when you can do everything solo, then players form zero attachments with it or its players. The game system is way more important than its payment model.
Originally posted by dgarbini How many threads are you going to start on this topic? Isn't there several floating around already?
There can't be enough of these threads, people need to understand.
Need? Perhaps. Want? Obviously not. Most people don't want anything beyond what is being offered. Other wise, they wouldn't keep playing the same damn game, with slightly different rules and a different color set. Given what it costs to produce these games, the companies involved wouldn't keep doing it, if it wasn't profitable.
We are caught in a nasty feed back loop. Given what a good quality game costs to produce, the investors/business suits, take as few risks as possible. That means sticking to a formula that worked (at a given time), even if the times have changed, and it works less well now. That continues until its no longer profitable. Then the majority jump on the Next Big Thing (tm) and the cycle repeats.
You would say that. Have you ever experienced an older MMO, one of the originals? I'm not talking about WoW, and I'm not talking about a F2P back then (I mean either UO or Everquest). You have no idea how amazing they were, and you likely never will with todays MMO market. It's actually very sad, because it was the most satisfying experience that the greedy companies today will never be able to show you, or us veterans ever again. You can't state to care or understand, because you haven't experienced it. You don't know what those of us who fight the F2P model are speaking of. How can you bother yourself with it, if it's so unfamiliar to you?
We use to have comraderie, everywhere. You think games are social now? You have no idea! Ten times more than that. Our communities were something to talk about, to be proud of, to enjoy the company of.
We use to have actual adventures. Ones that games did not set out in a linear fashion to us. Nobodies tale was ever quite like the other.
We use to have a home. I meant exactly what I say. In todays MMOs, you just don't get housing. I'm glad Wild Star is seeing this, but I cannot say the game has much long term chance after a few months have passed.
We use to have great service. Allow me to give an example. Back when I started UO, their GMs would be around to talk (on a character) to new players and even have conversations with them. They'd answer ANY question you had. The developers and the producer would be in game, doing events, on a character, with the players!
We use to have immersion with more options. We use to have a seamless world. We use to have a lot of things that we no longer have today.
I'm not saying they should be exactly like that again, but there is no hope for this train wreck if it keeps going full speed and learning nothing from a head on collision..with themselves, each and every time.
Back to the OP though..
I totally agree. I'm quite sad that MMOs are nothing like what they use to be. I remember when finding a F2P was hard, and still did not ensure you that you were spending your time or moneys worth.
Its not P2P. Games are not free, and MMOs need consistently operational cost to keep playing. Something F2P will never get you cannot make enough money consistently to pay your operating cost period. F2P will bring down many publishers in the near future. You can take that to the bank. There are just too many MMOs and F2P will do nothing but bring alone the enviable which is games shutting down faster because too much money is spent creating a game for little or no return on investment."
/this Many gamers (especially on this site) forget or don't care that to create a game and maintain it costs money. That requires investors. Funding a game that was already produced and had good word of mouth is a possible investment but to start a game from scratch as f2p - why would investors want to take that risk.
Kickstarter is not the answer. For a AAA MMO you need a LOT of resources and work and money to pay for the salaries of all those people. Kickstarter is not going to make it.
Yes, there are too many MMOs on the market. Contrary to the usual critics there are many that are not the "usual wow clones". GW2, Tera, and TSW are just three who are different. Different did not seem to work. Yes, the games are hanging in there but are they making a ton of money - no.
There is a bigger factor that is going to bring down most (yes most) of the big games in the future - mobile games. Investors are dumping MMOs right and left. What do you think was behind the Titan layoff? Investors want mobile games not pc/console games - even from the biggest name in MMOs.
Originally posted by Boneserino It is the players, not the MMO's, that are the problem.
This guy gets it.
Both of you don't get it.
Developers set the stage in all aspects of an mmo. They make the discision on how the game will be played. Players can only work around what is given to them AS BEST THEY CAN TO MAKE A GAME TO THERE LIKING.
A few examples :
Everquest 2 - This game was released around the same time as World of Warcraft. Both games were deep, both were a step up from UO and EQ1. WoW took the community for several reasons.
- Bad coding, Both games had bugs and hard starts. But EQ2 was much harder on many computers even by todays standards.
- WoW was seemless and had a better map system. EQ2 was zoned, and expantions were hacked in like a bad jig saw puzzle.
- EQ2 had an AA system to alow you to stop or slow your exp. Sure some could say this was a good thing, but it gave an advantage to experancedi players.
Rift- Good game !.....Impossible to make a community.
- Quest hubs and chain quest. I can't play with you, your not on part 4 yet !....The entire game was like that until end game. Both my RL friend and I had to play exactly togeather to match quest. If one played even one hour more than the other we were completely out of sync.........Who's fault is that !.......I had zero friends on my friends list, when I'm the most social player in an mmo.
GW2- Well, we all know with auto grouping you don't need to make friends or belong to a guild. It's called GUILDWARS 2, figure that one out .....whos fault is that ?
I would give about 20 more examples of Developers screwing up mmos, but i'm off to work.
I have noticed the trends in game design for quite some time.I learned a lot about game design and the game engines a long time ago ,during the DOOM days.I really learned a lot more when Epic games released the Unreal Editor so everyone could see the C+ code and how an entire game was made.
So i have been able to see exactly where devs are cutting corners.I know exactly what they COULD be doing and far they have dumb down what they did do.What i see are a lot of naive people who buy anything a developer is selling them,like used car salesmen licking their chops at their next customer.I see dev gimmicks like selling you a car with no tires,then the buyers are like all excited when they get free tires a month or two later.Or no stereo ,then they get this free cool stereo and the people are like "this dev is the greatest, i love these guys".Umm no sorry they ripped you off in the first place,they are just slowly giving you back what should have been there on release,so in reality they are giving you NOTHING for free.
I wish more people would realize that these developers are selling you extremely poor effort.IMO it is too bad if you spent 100 million and your game still looks like a 20 mil game.If these devs can't properly plan out the production and design of their game long before starting it,they deserve to have the game fail 2 months after release.
Perhaps the problem is too many big shots with more money than brains,They know how to play the market and stocks deal with banks and investments,they know how to entice investors but they definitely don't know much about game design,aside from the business end of things.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by DMKano Originally posted by WaterlilyHave you noticed how there are hundreds of MMO but they all die off in a matter of months.Have you noticed that people jump from MMO to MMO.Have you noticed how communities in MMO are dead, no one really gives a damn anymore.Have you noticed how you seem to level to the cap in a matter of weeks.In a F2P MMO all the freeloaders bail the ship once they hit the paywall after a few weeks, the ones who get tired of having to pay to progress bail the ship a few weeks after, and the whales is all that's left, but they jump ship too once they realise they're competing against themselves and no longer have a monetary edge over freeloaders.As a result, no one joins older F2P, since they would need to spend hundreds of dollars to compete with the whales. The MMO simply die.As a result the quality of the MMO goes down too, since the companies make dying MMO after dying MMO, to rake in cash from the whales.In China MMo last a couple of months, and they shut them down. This is the future of F2P MMO, completely meaningless casino adventures. Congorats.
You know nothing Jon Snow
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Comments
Speak not those words. This isn't a thread for logic.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Nope - it is because people are trying to relive their first MMO experience/feeling. They will bounce and complain about it but not stick around to actually give a game a chance.
Exactly my thoughts too. I have to say I am guilty of this sometimes too. I do try my best to get into the games atmosphere by reading up on it's lore, trying to craft, and enjoy pve as much as possible. The lure of thousands of other games calls, and it is easier than not to slip away and start something else.
We need one fantasy, one sci-fi, and one steam punk title per category and thats all! lol
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
That's not right, people who played old MMO are a tiny percentage of the MMO playerbase.
F2P likely allows people to bounce from MMO to MMO.
P2P is an investment, you invest in the game and the people who play it, F2P is like a one night stand for most players, they play the games as if they were single player games.
To me, there seems to be something wrong with a game if the main reason you get people to keep playing, is that they feel obligated to, because of a sub.
Not to mention most MMOs goes F2P eventually anyway, so most will just wait for that to happen, and not adopt it at launch. It kinda becomes a self fulfilling prophecy in that regard.
Not really, the strongest relationships are all formed under artificial conditions, I know of no natural conditions in which a community grows.
-prison bonds: artificially forced environment
-school bonds: artificially forced environment
-bus / train: artitficially forced environment
-restaurant: artificially forced environment
When people say it's the fault of the players that there's no community, I say wrong, it's the fault of the game. The way the game works, the way it monetizes, the way it enforces grouping, either creates an environment of longevity or a transient experience, F2P are transient.
The mere fact you need to pay an upfront cost by buying the game in P2P means people are more willing to build a community, in F2P 90% of the players will stop playing anyway so why even build a community that is going to fall apart anyway.
Bringing almost everyday a new mmo on markte prolly help alot killing off the genre.
Player base has changed so much it also help alinate more and more from massive multiplayer gameworlds.
Dumb down versions these days also help alot.
Not to mention cheating exploiting bots and cashshops also help killing mmo's.
These are few reason why mmo's fail so much.
Ive played a couple of mmo's P2P and your ssumption that people are willing to invest in good community its just FALSE thus not true.
Only one i can remember when it still was payed sub was Sage of Ryzom community and early days of Asheron's call 2.
Darkfall 1 was awesome game could been awesome community small group realy tried making it great(EU-1 server) but on massive scale cheaters exploiters and afk macrobastards ruined game totally(no reason to cheat at all ive played 2.5 years DFO 1 and never cheated/exploit/macroed ones)gamers aslo ruin mmo's.
This guy gets it.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
When your account depends on your behavior on the forum and in the game, people do invest in a community.
A F2P allows you to be a jerk to other people, it allows you to be a stick in the wheel instead of a cog. Most F2P go one step further and allow you to change your name on the fly, making you completely anonymous.
P2P is an investment, of your time, your money, and the result is a better community where reputation and your account matters.
People who play P2P pay a high upfront game cost, $50 or more, just to enter the game. People who play F2P are often there to "check it out", often without any intention of staying, often with the intention to cause trouble.
In fact I have heard people say many times in F2P: "I don't care if they ban me, I'll just make a new account"
The account in F2P has no value, the game has no value, F2P are transient. And even if there are player there willing to invest time into a community, it's diluted by the number of people who don't care about community in F2P.
I agree with this 100%. You will always find bad apples in any situation, of course. But overall it's just a better experience when people have a reason to invest in the community.
I believe games go F2P because they are simply not good enough. World of Warcraft in a new skin. Every single MMO I have played since I left WoW, has felt like WoW, just with a new skin. The exception being EVE Online. THAT is why they go F2P. Players have done it all before. There's no depth, there's no longevity, there's no reason to stay in something they have essentially done a thousand times over, just with a new look.
Create something with depth, and something that entices players to want to stay for a long time, then you'll have people who want to invest. Both with their money, and in the community.
Modern MMO's have been shaped by the demands of the average MMO player.
The average player doesn't play one game for more than 2 to 3 months (if that long).
Levelling has to be fast, because if they can't "beat the game" (hit level cap) in under a month, they'll get bored and frustrated and hop to another game.
They prefer F2P, because they jump from game to game so often that B2P and P2P would be totally "unaffordable" for them. It would be unaffordable, because they also need cash to spend on all the console games they'll be buying between playing the F2P MMO's. Unfortunately, there's no way to play the new console games for "free"...
I guess my issue is that most p2p mmos are also transient. Everything since WoW has seen high initial adoption with a fast drop off a month later after the first 30 days runs out, and often times horrible/nonexistant communities. The box price didnt really seem to do anything to stop people from dropping it.
I will agree that communities form under artificial conditions, but payment model is not one of those I would focus on, but rather player interdependancy. Have crafter type players who cant kill stuff well, killer type players who cant craft well, and all kinds of things in between. Anarchy Online was the last game I played that had a system like this. If you put points into your crafting skills, that took away from your combat skills. People needed certain classes for buffs, so that they could squeeze into the latest armor/weapons/implants. People would hang out selling buffs and tradeskills and just chat it up, since there was nothing else to do while spamming "WTS buffs!".
The first four sentences were topics of conversation before DDO's big F2P switch. Blaming F2P for a condition that existed before F2P was prevalent doesn't make much sense.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
imo it's not the f2p that's the blame, but the gamers.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
why would I want free loaders in my game . I would make levelling super slow so that there are no flavour of the month gamers at end game , they would be dedicated players who put in time and effort to reap the rewards of end game .
if its FTP all the more reason to make levelling much longer and sell runes that give faster EXP ..
You're using 2 different aspects and calling them the same.
Forced interdependency builds communities, regardless of payment model. You didn't see players hopping around oldschool MMO's because they required a huge time investment, reliance on others for everything, and reputation meant everything. None of those factors apply to current MMO's regardless of model.
Sure the barrier to entry is removed because they're free, but when you can do everything solo, then players form zero attachments with it or its players. The game system is way more important than its payment model.
Badly performing mmos that die fast are the cause of f2p
Need? Perhaps. Want? Obviously not. Most people don't want anything beyond what is being offered. Other wise, they wouldn't keep playing the same damn game, with slightly different rules and a different color set. Given what it costs to produce these games, the companies involved wouldn't keep doing it, if it wasn't profitable.
We are caught in a nasty feed back loop. Given what a good quality game costs to produce, the investors/business suits, take as few risks as possible. That means sticking to a formula that worked (at a given time), even if the times have changed, and it works less well now. That continues until its no longer profitable. Then the majority jump on the Next Big Thing (tm) and the cycle repeats.
You would say that. Have you ever experienced an older MMO, one of the originals? I'm not talking about WoW, and I'm not talking about a F2P back then (I mean either UO or Everquest). You have no idea how amazing they were, and you likely never will with todays MMO market. It's actually very sad, because it was the most satisfying experience that the greedy companies today will never be able to show you, or us veterans ever again.
You can't state to care or understand, because you haven't experienced it. You don't know what those of us who fight the F2P model are speaking of. How can you bother yourself with it, if it's so unfamiliar to you?
We use to have comraderie, everywhere. You think games are social now? You have no idea! Ten times more than that. Our communities were something to talk about, to be proud of, to enjoy the company of.
We use to have actual adventures. Ones that games did not set out in a linear fashion to us. Nobodies tale was ever quite like the other.
We use to have a home. I meant exactly what I say. In todays MMOs, you just don't get housing. I'm glad Wild Star is seeing this, but I cannot say the game has much long term chance after a few months have passed.
We use to have great service. Allow me to give an example. Back when I started UO, their GMs would be around to talk (on a character) to new players and even have conversations with them. They'd answer ANY question you had. The developers and the producer would be in game, doing events, on a character, with the players!
We use to have immersion with more options. We use to have a seamless world. We use to have a lot of things that we no longer have today.
I'm not saying they should be exactly like that again, but there is no hope for this train wreck if it keeps going full speed and learning nothing from a head on collision..with themselves, each and every time.
Back to the OP though..
I totally agree. I'm quite sad that MMOs are nothing like what they use to be. I remember when finding a F2P was hard, and still did not ensure you that you were spending your time or moneys worth.
"Hey Bones,
Its not P2P. Games are not free, and MMOs need consistently operational cost to keep playing. Something F2P will never get you cannot make enough money consistently to pay your operating cost period. F2P will bring down many publishers in the near future. You can take that to the bank. There are just too many MMOs and F2P will do nothing but bring alone the enviable which is games shutting down faster because too much money is spent creating a game for little or no return on investment."
/this Many gamers (especially on this site) forget or don't care that to create a game and maintain it costs money. That requires investors. Funding a game that was already produced and had good word of mouth is a possible investment but to start a game from scratch as f2p - why would investors want to take that risk.
Kickstarter is not the answer. For a AAA MMO you need a LOT of resources and work and money to pay for the salaries of all those people. Kickstarter is not going to make it.
Yes, there are too many MMOs on the market. Contrary to the usual critics there are many that are not the "usual wow clones". GW2, Tera, and TSW are just three who are different. Different did not seem to work. Yes, the games are hanging in there but are they making a ton of money - no.
There is a bigger factor that is going to bring down most (yes most) of the big games in the future - mobile games. Investors are dumping MMOs right and left. What do you think was behind the Titan layoff? Investors want mobile games not pc/console games - even from the biggest name in MMOs.
Both of you don't get it.
Developers set the stage in all aspects of an mmo. They make the discision on how the game will be played. Players can only work around what is given to them AS BEST THEY CAN TO MAKE A GAME TO THERE LIKING.
A few examples :
Everquest 2 - This game was released around the same time as World of Warcraft. Both games were deep, both were a step up from UO and EQ1. WoW took the community for several reasons.
- Bad coding, Both games had bugs and hard starts. But EQ2 was much harder on many computers even by todays standards.
- WoW was seemless and had a better map system. EQ2 was zoned, and expantions were hacked in like a bad jig saw puzzle.
- EQ2 had an AA system to alow you to stop or slow your exp. Sure some could say this was a good thing, but it gave an advantage to experancedi players.
Rift- Good game !.....Impossible to make a community.
- Quest hubs and chain quest. I can't play with you, your not on part 4 yet !....The entire game was like that until end game. Both my RL friend and I had to play exactly togeather to match quest. If one played even one hour more than the other we were completely out of sync.........Who's fault is that !.......I had zero friends on my friends list, when I'm the most social player in an mmo.
GW2- Well, we all know with auto grouping you don't need to make friends or belong to a guild. It's called GUILDWARS 2, figure that one out
.....whos fault is that ?
I would give about 20 more examples of Developers screwing up mmos, but i'm off to work.
I have noticed the trends in game design for quite some time.I learned a lot about game design and the game engines a long time ago ,during the DOOM days.I really learned a lot more when Epic games released the Unreal Editor so everyone could see the C+ code and how an entire game was made.
So i have been able to see exactly where devs are cutting corners.I know exactly what they COULD be doing and far they have dumb down what they did do.What i see are a lot of naive people who buy anything a developer is selling them,like used car salesmen licking their chops at their next customer.I see dev gimmicks like selling you a car with no tires,then the buyers are like all excited when they get free tires a month or two later.Or no stereo ,then they get this free cool stereo and the people are like "this dev is the greatest, i love these guys".Umm no sorry they ripped you off in the first place,they are just slowly giving you back what should have been there on release,so in reality they are giving you NOTHING for free.
I wish more people would realize that these developers are selling you extremely poor effort.IMO it is too bad if you spent 100 million and your game still looks like a 20 mil game.If these devs can't properly plan out the production and design of their game long before starting it,they deserve to have the game fail 2 months after release.
Perhaps the problem is too many big shots with more money than brains,They know how to play the market and stocks deal with banks and investments,they know how to entice investors but they definitely don't know much about game design,aside from the business end of things.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.