I am just curious as to what the hardcore gamers play these days? With the market being saturated with the most casual of games [Guild Wars 2], what is there for the hardcore crowd? The only two games that come to mind are EVE Online and Final Fantasy XI and even FFXI has been scaled way back and is now a joke.
I feel as if developers are catering to casual players too much and not so much to their base hardcore fans. Things like Dungeon Finder, terribly easy leveling and instant gratification are pretty much the norm now and it's starting to become beyond a joke. Casual players complain when they can't solo the entirety of the games content so the devs scale it back. One thing that devs have started to inject is the normal and hard mode dungeons but... shouldn't these be hard anyway? why should I be able to roflspam my abilities and prance around and come out with tier gear [WoW] Where is the meaningful content? Never I have felt so good after finally getting my BLU spells in FFXI, all the work, all the hours meeting new people along the way, it was a journey, it wasn't about the end reward.
Developers should stop catering so much to casuals and start making content and games that require some sort of thought, some strategy and furthermore teamwork! Also, I hate to hear this "Well I can't play for hours on end grinding for particular gear, so it should be easier!"
Look, if you don't have the time to commit to an MMO then you shouldn't play an MMO, simple.
I don't have the time to put into EVE, it doesn't mean I should complain that their game is too difficult and demand they scale it back for me; I simply don't play.
Man, can you imagine if say... Tomb Raider 1 [PS1] was re-released for this generation? "Where is the guide telling me where to go? where is the enemy health bars? why aren't I automatically regaining hp? help i've ran out of med-packs! this game sucks"
my 2 cents...
Because having more people playing these games and bringing in more money to further develop these games is a bad thing. This entire hardcore vs. casual thing is dumb.
Rather pointless discussion, only few hardcore left im affraid.
Look, if you don't have the time to commit to an MMO then you shouldn't play an MMO, simple.
I don't have the time to put into EVE, it doesn't mean I should complain that their game is too difficult and demand they scale it back for me; I simply don't play.
If hardcore gamers are following your mindset, then they aren't playing at all once they no longer have the time leaving pretty much the entire market to those casual gamers.
By your logic, casual gamers aren't taking anything too far, hardcore gamers just aren't taking it far enough to remain relevant.
Yes we all get it you play for fun, yes we all get it you like instant gratification rules, yes we all get it you play MMOs and singleplayers games for fun and yes we all get the silver spoonfed mentality.
But please stop just for once with your copy/paste respons and play the games you like ok, you seems to have shitloads of games and still you had the time to jump into threads like this and yet again tell everyone you like silverspoon feed games, ok we got it, just let it go.
As long as you choose to use words like "spoonfed" and "instant gratification", you are clearly showing that no, you do not understand his position. The fact that you cannot discuss the matter without words with derogatory meanings, patronizing tone or hidden insults shows you obviously don't get it.
I think he just feel threatened that his games are just not that important to others. May be they have their self-worth all invested in their games.
Personally i never think there is any real achievement in games. Achievement in games are all illusion the devs create for players to have fun. Nothing more nothing else.
Yes we all get it you play for fun, yes we all get it you like instant gratification rules, yes we all get it you play MMOs and singleplayers games for fun and yes we all get the silver spoonfed mentality.
But please stop just for once with your copy/paste respons and play the games you like ok, you seems to have shitloads of games and still you had the time to jump into threads like this and yet again tell everyone you like silverspoon feed games, ok we got it, just let it go.
As long as you choose to use words like "spoonfed" and "instant gratification", you are clearly showing that no, you do not understand his position. The fact that you cannot discuss the matter without words with derogatory meanings, patronizing tone or hidden insults shows you obviously don't get it.
I think he just feel threatened that his games are just not that important to others. May be they have their self-worth all invested in their games.
Personally i never think there is any real achievement in games. Achievement in games are all illusion the devs create for players to have fun. Nothing more nothing else.
that's where you and I disagree, I believe games have many achievements, be in you finally defeated a wild boar that took you 10 deaths but you learned some techniques, or managed to get to the top of a high mountain, I consider these things achievements, but then again I play games for Fun, do you? It doesn't sound like it.
You'll be disappointed to know that you can go from one to max in less than a day of playing FFXI now. It's been dumbed down and made easier to the point of being worthless. In my opinion, there's nothing special about reaching max level or accomplishing anything if it's easy. The easy way might seem fun and great until you realize that everybody capable of breathing can and already has accomplished the same thing.
"Cutscene, quick time event, cutscene, quick time event, cutscene, quick time event, I hate developers who ruin games like that. I just want to control the character myself. Is that too much to ask nowadays? If I want good story, I go and watch a movie or read a book. Why do developers have to put this linear cinematic push a button garbage into video games?"
Welcome to Tomb Raider 2013. This is the time we live in and these no brain required games are tremendously popular. I can only think of a few franchises that haven't been dumbed down to the point of being playable by chimpanzees. Most people like to play simple games that don't require a whole lot of thought. There's nothing we can do to change this.
I was never a hardcore gamer. But I see just as many of them around now then ever. It's just not many hardcore games left. My guess for that is they evolved to deal.
a) blame casual players. they play games that offered they don't create them. and the idea that they should change in order to ensure your own entertainment strikes me as a bit more than absurd.
b) while i am not the greatest fan of laissez-faire capitalism i am well aware of how it works. with that inmind i think your problem stems from not having enough of your hardcore base to make the financial impact on developers to find it feasible logistically or economically rewarding enough to produce hardcore games. they are a niche market currently. this could change over time, but for now i am afraid we are stuck with the tidal forces of 'the market'.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
that's where you and I disagree, I believe games have many achievements, be in you finally defeated a wild boar that took you 10 deaths but you learned some techniques, or managed to get to the top of a high mountain, I consider these things achievements, but then again I play games for Fun, do you? It doesn't sound like it.
uh? It sounds like i play games for fun, and you play them for "achievement".
I consider those things gameplay elements that create an illusion of achievement, but not real achievement like learning calculus, or climbing a real mountain.
that's where you and I disagree, I believe games have many achievements, be in you finally defeated a wild boar that took you 10 deaths but you learned some techniques, or managed to get to the top of a high mountain, I consider these things achievements, but then again I play games for Fun, do you? It doesn't sound like it.
uh? It sounds like i play games for fun, and you play them for "achievement".
I consider those things gameplay elements that create an illusion of achievement, but not real achievement like learning calculus, or climbing a real mountain.
Yeah I had to laugh at "climbing" a virtual mountain as an achievement. It may fit the dictionary definition of the word but I would hope few people would actually consider it one in their life.
that's where you and I disagree, I believe games have many achievements, be in you finally defeated a wild boar that took you 10 deaths but you learned some techniques, or managed to get to the top of a high mountain, I consider these things achievements, but then again I play games for Fun, do you? It doesn't sound like it.
uh? It sounds like i play games for fun, and you play them for "achievement".
I consider those things gameplay elements that create an illusion of achievement, but not real achievement like learning calculus, or climbing a real mountain.
Actually it's proven that video games excel your decision making abilities, I find that climbing mountains in the game, or taking corners in a racing game, I use/learn from the techniques outside of the game.
If you don't believe certain things Fun=Achievement, then it sounds like many want to play games for the achievement but find the tasks unfun.
I am saying I find Games with legitimate and fun tasks, that end up being achievements, which I find fun, be it scaling a mountain or successfully killing 1000 zombies without getting touched, everyone has there own sense of achievement and fun.
that's where you and I disagree, I believe games have many achievements, be in you finally defeated a wild boar that took you 10 deaths but you learned some techniques, or managed to get to the top of a high mountain, I consider these things achievements, but then again I play games for Fun, do you? It doesn't sound like it.
uh? It sounds like i play games for fun, and you play them for "achievement".
I consider those things gameplay elements that create an illusion of achievement, but not real achievement like learning calculus, or climbing a real mountain.
Yeah I had to laugh at "climbing" a virtual mountain as an achievement. It may fit the dictionary definition of the word but I would hope few people would actually consider it one in their life.
I'm guessing you have never played a game that took the time to create the depth of exploring terrain, it's not my fault you pay and consume from developers that are afraid of innovation, because they cannot balance it.
that's where you and I disagree, I believe games have many achievements, be in you finally defeated a wild boar that took you 10 deaths but you learned some techniques, or managed to get to the top of a high mountain, I consider these things achievements, but then again I play games for Fun, do you? It doesn't sound like it.
uh? It sounds like i play games for fun, and you play them for "achievement".
I consider those things gameplay elements that create an illusion of achievement, but not real achievement like learning calculus, or climbing a real mountain.
Yeah I had to laugh at "climbing" a virtual mountain as an achievement. It may fit the dictionary definition of the word but I would hope few people would actually consider it one in their life.
yes and no.
i think we can all agree that there are not only different types of achievements we experience in life there are also achievements of different value.
someone can say, "i raised two healthy, well adapted children who are now doing the same with their families," but this is entirely different than stating, "i climbed Mt Everest."
so i think we can safely assume that, "i ranked first in world pvp 3 years in a row," and even "i was voted most helpful player on the server 3 years in a row."
neither are in essence more important than the other, yet they are both achievements.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
that's where you and I disagree, I believe games have many achievements, be in you finally defeated a wild boar that took you 10 deaths but you learned some techniques, or managed to get to the top of a high mountain, I consider these things achievements, but then again I play games for Fun, do you? It doesn't sound like it.
uh? It sounds like i play games for fun, and you play them for "achievement".
I consider those things gameplay elements that create an illusion of achievement, but not real achievement like learning calculus, or climbing a real mountain.
Yeah I had to laugh at "climbing" a virtual mountain as an achievement. It may fit the dictionary definition of the word but I would hope few people would actually consider it one in their life.
What's youre obsession with real life buddy? I can scale any real mountain I want any day, when can you go out and teleport across 20 ft ledges, and free fall 30ft to the next ledge?
I am afraid you both confused on what an achievement is.
Games like Skyrim (exspecially any console version ) are sadly lacking in innovation,where are the magical grappling hooks and other things that would fit into the lore? Well they didn't do it because they were afraid of innovation and the task that is balancing any new product.
I should see trees getting cut down, and be able to excavate terrain - all these exist, yet they are afraid of the task, so you the end user ends up practically playing old text games if you think about it, but even those had more aspects and depth to them, D&D there is a hundreds of rules that affect the simple action of climbing up a ladder? Most MMORPG's leave ladders or jumping/swimming out because they afraid....
i think we can all agree that there are not only different types of achievements we experience in life there are also achievements of different value.
someone can say, "i raised two healthy, well adapted children who are now doing the same with their families," but this is entirely different than stating, "i climbed Mt Everest."
so i think we can safely assume that, "i ranked first in world pvp 3 years in a row," and even "i was voted most helpful player on the server 3 years in a row."
neither are in essence more important than the other, yet they are both achievements.
I completely agree. Achievements are nothing but opinion when you begin to restrict the definition.
What's youre obsession with real life buddy? I can scale any real mountain I want any day, when can you go out and teleport across 20 ft ledges, and free fall 30ft to the next ledge?
I am afraid you both confused on what an achievement is.
I don't think we're confused at all. I just think we measure them with a different size of stick.
What's youre obsession with real life buddy? I can scale any real mountain I want any day, when can you go out and teleport across 20 ft ledges, and free fall 30ft to the next ledge?
I am afraid you both confused on what an achievement is.
I don't think we're confused at all. I just think we measure them with a different size of stick.
computers = energy, mountains = energy, any can gain the same fun and achievement feelings, just depends on the person, I suppose, me and you Damon, we agree on that.
Originally posted by maplestoneRefresh my memory - how do I tell if I'm hardcore or casual?
state of mind.tomorrow in whatever game you play, whatever group you play with urgently needs you and everyone they can get online at 4am ?if you feel proud to rise to arms at such an unusual time, you're hardcore.if you decide it doesn't fit in your schedule and sleep like a baby through it, you're normal.if you decide to throw a fit and rage at them for daring to make such a request, you're a casual.
I think hardcore is more along the lines of depth of gameplay - Dungeon Siege was Less hardcore because you had less control over your character development, then a game like Fallout, I also find the quests and ability to make A or B decisions also brings a hardcoreness to a game, rather then straight forward, no other path, goals.
Save the princess? Why can't I just loot her?
The way I explain it is like this, a Hardcore game does NOT have to be time consuming, the two DO NOT always coincide, but Time Consuming can be Hardcore ( depending on the persons ).
this game, Asheron's Call 1 ~ is a hardcore game by definition, but it only takes casual time to partake in content.
hardcore?
seemless world,
pve and pvp servers,
random loot generation,
player run market and crafting,
each item is own material and can be salvaged onto other items,
complete skill and attribute freedom, build that mage/rogue you've wanted and apply your real skills in twitch combat,
no boring quests, all quests completely lore based and hours on handcrafted textures, items, npcs, dialogues, books and lore, unique and powerful items, puzzles, over come pits and ledges with skill and technique, locked doors, levers and buttons, all uniquely places and immersive.
decal supported for web integration, manuals, guides, travel routes, fletching/cooking/combat/salvaging/assisting friends while busy but attending your computer when you can...
hop on the weekend for a few hours and explore the world and find new friends and obstacles to overcome and treasures to find... then lay back in your new favorite spot and fish or kill monsters while you wash dishes, or take care of the kids, even sleep.
The skills level themselves without me even playing.
And when I do play, all the answers I need for PvE combat are on a webpage, what spawns where, what resists to use, what ammo to use, etc.
And the crafting, well I simple point at a rock and AFK for 5-10 minutes.
Then I go back to a station, and queue up something to be built and come back in a couple of days and it's done.
Hardcore?
Anything but.
Now World of Warcraft? That is a hardcore MMO.
First you have to level up 90 frick'n levels of boring grind content, but thankfully I can mix and match between quests, PvP, dungeons, and crafting to level up.
Then, you have to slog through weeks of heroic dungeons to get the gear you need to join LFR.
Then, you have to slog through weeks or LFR to get the gear you need to do normal/heroic raids.
Then, you actually have to find a guild and raid 4-5 days a week (because you still have to LFR and do dailies).
And you do that for a couple of MONTHS every week, day in day out, until the next Tier comes out - and you have to do the whole process over again.
The skills level themselves without me even playing.
And when I do play, all the answers I need for PvE combat are on a webpage, what spawns where, what resists to use, what ammo to use, etc.
And the crafting, well I simple point at a rock and AFK for 5-10 minutes.
Then I go back to a station, and queue up something to be built and come back in a couple of days and it's done.
Hardcore?
Anything but.
Now World of Warcraft? That is a hardcore MMO.
First you have to level up 90 frick'n levels of boring grind content, but thankfully I can mix and match between quests, PvP, dungeons, and crafting to level up.
Then, you have to slog through weeks of heroic dungeons to get the gear you need to join LFR.
Then, you have to slog through weeks or LFR to get the gear you need to do normal/heroic raids.
Then, you actually have to find a guild and raid 4-5 days a week (because you still have to LFR and do dailies).
And you do that for a couple of MONTHS every week, day in day out, until the next Tier comes out - and you have to do the whole process over again.
that's where you and I disagree, I believe games have many achievements, be in you finally defeated a wild boar that took you 10 deaths but you learned some techniques, or managed to get to the top of a high mountain, I consider these things achievements, but then again I play games for Fun, do you? It doesn't sound like it.
uh? It sounds like i play games for fun, and you play them for "achievement".
I consider those things gameplay elements that create an illusion of achievement, but not real achievement like learning calculus, or climbing a real mountain.
Yeah I had to laugh at "climbing" a virtual mountain as an achievement. It may fit the dictionary definition of the word but I would hope few people would actually consider it one in their life.
You can't stop them from doing so. If that is the only thing they "achieve", it is hard to convince them it is just an illusion that the devs set up for them.
The real question is does it matter whether a gamer is hardcore or casual. The only place it really matters are the people that visit forums, just because you choose to dedicate a disproportional amount of hours into something doesn't suddenly make much in the grand scheme of things.
Honestly, I don't see why players on these forums are so obsessed with being seen as hardcore, because the sad through is MMO are nothing more than water down version of single player games. The mechanics are designed purely to stall and waste your time for no apparent reason, this is application only to themepark.
I agree with that. Most of the people that I run into who are super hardcore gamers are people who are just utter losers in real life. They have nothing worthwhile to be proud of so they pretend that being good at a game makes them better people.
Comments
Fine, we'll compromise. I'll get my way & you'll find a way to be okay with that.
Rather pointless discussion, only few hardcore left im affraid.
If hardcore gamers are following your mindset, then they aren't playing at all once they no longer have the time leaving pretty much the entire market to those casual gamers.
By your logic, casual gamers aren't taking anything too far, hardcore gamers just aren't taking it far enough to remain relevant.
I think he just feel threatened that his games are just not that important to others. May be they have their self-worth all invested in their games.
Personally i never think there is any real achievement in games. Achievement in games are all illusion the devs create for players to have fun. Nothing more nothing else.
that's where you and I disagree, I believe games have many achievements, be in you finally defeated a wild boar that took you 10 deaths but you learned some techniques, or managed to get to the top of a high mountain, I consider these things achievements, but then again I play games for Fun, do you? It doesn't sound like it.You'll be disappointed to know that you can go from one to max in less than a day of playing FFXI now. It's been dumbed down and made easier to the point of being worthless. In my opinion, there's nothing special about reaching max level or accomplishing anything if it's easy. The easy way might seem fun and great until you realize that everybody capable of breathing can and already has accomplished the same thing.
I can imagine if Tomb Raider was released for this generation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb_Raider_%282013_video_game%29
Quoted from Metacritic:
"Cutscene, quick time event, cutscene, quick time event, cutscene, quick time event, I hate developers who ruin games like that. I just want to control the character myself. Is that too much to ask nowadays? If I want good story, I go and watch a movie or read a book. Why do developers have to put this linear cinematic push a button garbage into video games?"
Welcome to Tomb Raider 2013. This is the time we live in and these no brain required games are tremendously popular. I can only think of a few franchises that haven't been dumbed down to the point of being playable by chimpanzees. Most people like to play simple games that don't require a whole lot of thought. There's nothing we can do to change this.
Welcome to a niche, please enjoy your stay.
TL;DR but i dont see how you can:
a) blame casual players. they play games that offered they don't create them. and the idea that they should change in order to ensure your own entertainment strikes me as a bit more than absurd.
b) while i am not the greatest fan of laissez-faire capitalism i am well aware of how it works. with that inmind i think your problem stems from not having enough of your hardcore base to make the financial impact on developers to find it feasible logistically or economically rewarding enough to produce hardcore games. they are a niche market currently. this could change over time, but for now i am afraid we are stuck with the tidal forces of 'the market'.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
uh? It sounds like i play games for fun, and you play them for "achievement".
I consider those things gameplay elements that create an illusion of achievement, but not real achievement like learning calculus, or climbing a real mountain.
Yeah I had to laugh at "climbing" a virtual mountain as an achievement. It may fit the dictionary definition of the word but I would hope few people would actually consider it one in their life.
Actually it's proven that video games excel your decision making abilities, I find that climbing mountains in the game, or taking corners in a racing game, I use/learn from the techniques outside of the game.
If you don't believe certain things Fun=Achievement, then it sounds like many want to play games for the achievement but find the tasks unfun.
I am saying I find Games with legitimate and fun tasks, that end up being achievements, which I find fun, be it scaling a mountain or successfully killing 1000 zombies without getting touched, everyone has there own sense of achievement and fun.
I'm guessing you have never played a game that took the time to create the depth of exploring terrain, it's not my fault you pay and consume from developers that are afraid of innovation, because they cannot balance it.
yes and no.
i think we can all agree that there are not only different types of achievements we experience in life there are also achievements of different value.
someone can say, "i raised two healthy, well adapted children who are now doing the same with their families," but this is entirely different than stating, "i climbed Mt Everest."
so i think we can safely assume that, "i ranked first in world pvp 3 years in a row," and even "i was voted most helpful player on the server 3 years in a row."
neither are in essence more important than the other, yet they are both achievements.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
What's youre obsession with real life buddy? I can scale any real mountain I want any day, when can you go out and teleport across 20 ft ledges, and free fall 30ft to the next ledge?
I am afraid you both confused on what an achievement is.
Games like Skyrim (exspecially any console version ) are sadly lacking in innovation,where are the magical grappling hooks and other things that would fit into the lore? Well they didn't do it because they were afraid of innovation and the task that is balancing any new product.
I should see trees getting cut down, and be able to excavate terrain - all these exist, yet they are afraid of the task, so you the end user ends up practically playing old text games if you think about it, but even those had more aspects and depth to them, D&D there is a hundreds of rules that affect the simple action of climbing up a ladder? Most MMORPG's leave ladders or jumping/swimming out because they afraid....
I completely agree. Achievements are nothing but opinion when you begin to restrict the definition.
Incognito
www.incognito-gaming.us
"You're either with us or against us"
I don't think we're confused at all. I just think we measure them with a different size of stick.
computers = energy, mountains = energy, any can gain the same fun and achievement feelings, just depends on the person, I suppose, me and you Damon, we agree on that.
Save the princess? Why can't I just loot her?
The way I explain it is like this, a Hardcore game does NOT have to be time consuming, the two DO NOT always coincide, but Time Consuming can be Hardcore ( depending on the persons ).
EVE is the most casual MMO on the market.
The skills level themselves without me even playing.
And when I do play, all the answers I need for PvE combat are on a webpage, what spawns where, what resists to use, what ammo to use, etc.
And the crafting, well I simple point at a rock and AFK for 5-10 minutes.
Then I go back to a station, and queue up something to be built and come back in a couple of days and it's done.
Hardcore?
Anything but.
Now World of Warcraft? That is a hardcore MMO.
First you have to level up 90 frick'n levels of boring grind content, but thankfully I can mix and match between quests, PvP, dungeons, and crafting to level up.
Then, you have to slog through weeks of heroic dungeons to get the gear you need to join LFR.
Then, you have to slog through weeks or LFR to get the gear you need to do normal/heroic raids.
Then, you actually have to find a guild and raid 4-5 days a week (because you still have to LFR and do dailies).
And you do that for a couple of MONTHS every week, day in day out, until the next Tier comes out - and you have to do the whole process over again.
Talk about hardcore...
See what I did there?
Not a word of the above is false is it?
LOL +1, WINNING.
You can't stop them from doing so. If that is the only thing they "achieve", it is hard to convince them it is just an illusion that the devs set up for them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6W1hWdmKZo
1:27 kinda fits perfectly here
The real question is does it matter whether a gamer is hardcore or casual. The only place it really matters are the people that visit forums, just because you choose to dedicate a disproportional amount of hours into something doesn't suddenly make much in the grand scheme of things.
Honestly, I don't see why players on these forums are so obsessed with being seen as hardcore, because the sad through is MMO are nothing more than water down version of single player games. The mechanics are designed purely to stall and waste your time for no apparent reason, this is application only to themepark.
I agree with that. Most of the people that I run into who are super hardcore gamers are people who are just utter losers in real life. They have nothing worthwhile to be proud of so they pretend that being good at a game makes them better people.
It's just sad.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None