Originally posted by ice-vortex So what in hell would you do in a sandbox game without PVP?
Plenty, harvest, craft, pve, be a merchant, and whatever player created content system they have that they are touting. If they have item decay, people will need stuff renewed, non-instanced housing, decorations etc...
Could be plenty to do, I think they may have some system, but I do not think it will be the ffa pvp people are yelling for any time and any place.
I have played UO (6-8 years total), EQ (non pvp for 6-8 years total), Vanguard PvP server, Rift PvP...So I am not opposed to playing PvP, and I also am not opposed to playing solely PvE, as EQ1 was (PvP servers were kind of thrown together and usually not too well done, so only played on them sparingly).
We will have to wait and see, but I personally usually do everything a mmo has to offer, including crafting/harvesting/merchant/side stuff/pve/pvp. I am not a game hopper mmo wise, well feels like it recently, due to not likeing the over instanced junk that has been coming out.
rather play a single player game than the above.
I talked about a few different systems and games, so you don't like to play mmos, thanks for that information.
Originally posted by ice-vortex Uh, sit in a city waiting for the dungeon finder or raid finder?
Do you actually want to play in a sandbox MMORPG? Or just another combat game?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Benedikt what i would really like would be sandbox w/o pvp, but with pve factions behaving like pvpers - attacking player cities in massive raids, roaming around in groups to hunt down lonely adventurers etc.
so player cities as factions and then faction war? If so how is that not a type of pvp?
because mobs will not try to grief you, corpse camp, exploit bugs, block "friendly" players etc
edit: not to mention the whole other layer sandbox elements add to griefing - who was never walled in in wurm, didnt have someone digging inescapable pit in his mine or pulled superhard mobs (trolls and up) which are capable of destroying buildings to their deeds while they were offline, doesnt know why to really dislike pvpers.
(not to mention thing totally specific to wurm - having someone build heavily npc guarded deeds all around yours with guards set to KOS)
There are plenty of non-PvP games out there that put you against the artificial intelligence. The main draw for some of those has been the depth of graphical detail and interactivity that could be achieved. This is mainly due to the fact you only have to worry about all the game functions from one perspective.
Once you introduce multi-player there have always been some compromises in the quality of interactivity with the world and graphics.
But now with pc's pushing huge pixels around and gaming companies making better game engines and more sophisticated depth of interactivity, this barrier between single and multi-player is starting to vanish.
So you may have gamers that are used to just playing against a.i. like Morrowind and Skyrim and other single player games starting to take serious notice of these new mmorpg's. I do not believe full featured AAA titles in the mmorpg should ever throw the pvp element out. There can be different servers with different rule sets or different areas designated or certain ways to flag yourself for pvp or pve...but never eliminate it.
Originally posted by ice-vortex Uh, sit in a city waiting for the dungeon finder or raid finder?
Do you actually want to play in a sandbox MMORPG? Or just another combat game?
Cant have a combat game that puts you on semi equal ground with people who want to pvp.
He wants to go kill people half his level who are busy trying to quest.
There are PvPers who are fine with a flag on/off system. The ones who want the whole FFA PvP are the ones who know that if people don't have to PvP, most often they won't. And without those people there will be very few battles.
I for one like the flag system as I do like to PvP, but don't like having to worry about ToolX and his squad running around killing people just because they can every second of my playtime.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I just dont see any game pulling off some epic world pvp battles.
The games that have open pvp where people choose or are forced to fight in the world and not in a battleground are lopsided as can be.
Either do to killing people much lower than you. Or you bringing a bigger zerg than they have. People dont like to lose. Theres a reason most people get as far away from a "fair" fight as they can.
I voted yes, but this poll is a little extreme. Some PVP is okay. Factional wars, battlegrounds, etc., so long as the people involved have chosen to PVP via flagging. If the demand for PVP is as high as its proponents let on, there will be tons of people running around flagged for PVP at all times, so it shouldn't be a problem, right?
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
Originally posted by jonrd463 I voted yes, but this poll is a little extreme. Some PVP is okay. Factional wars, battlegrounds, etc., so long as the people involved have chosen to PVP via flagging. If the demand for PVP is as high as its proponents let on, there will be tons of people running around flagged for PVP at all times, so it shouldn't be a problem, right?
It is extreme...And of course there will be some kind of PvP...
But the poll is making it's point quite well so far...And there is a point to be made here...
Originally posted by jonrd463 I voted yes, but this poll is a little extreme. Some PVP is okay. Factional wars, battlegrounds, etc., so long as the people involved have chosen to PVP via flagging. If the demand for PVP is as high as its proponents let on, there will be tons of people running around flagged for PVP at all times, so it shouldn't be a problem, right?
It is extreme...And of course there will be some kind of PvP...
But the poll is making it's point quite well so far...And there is a point to be made here...
Originally posted by jonrd463 I voted yes, but this poll is a little extreme. Some PVP is okay. Factional wars, battlegrounds, etc., so long as the people involved have chosen to PVP via flagging. If the demand for PVP is as high as its proponents let on, there will be tons of people running around flagged for PVP at all times, so it shouldn't be a problem, right?
It is extreme...And of course there will be some kind of PvP...
But the poll is making it's point quite well so far...And there is a point to be made here...
That most PVPers don't visit PVE threads?
Nonsense. Any PVPer passionate enough to make their voice heard will participate in such a poll to prove their overwhelming numbers.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
Originally posted by ice-vortex These PVErs in this thread clearly have absolutely no clue why people play games with PVP.
Enlighten me.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
While we are at it, let's have a flag on/off corpse runs, experience loss, mob grind, long leveling times, and item camping.
In case you didn't realize, that sentence is sarcasm. These PVErs in this thread clearly have absolutely no clue why people play games with PVP.
there are a lot of pvp gamers and not everyone plays pvp games for the same reason. I can think of a few dfferent pvp gamers just from my corp in eve.
some like to play against a challenging human opponent instead of (or in addition to) AI
some genuinely like to cause havok and pvp is their vehicle to do this in game
some actually dont actively pvp (unless it's home defense!!) but like the thrill of being vulnerable and living in a dangerous world
some like to lead pvp excursions (we call em roams in eve) but dont like single player PVP
some like the fact that they can control territory and exert their dominance over other players as a corp or alliance rather than as individuals.
some fit into more than one of these.
and none of these players, who are all here for pvp in some sense of the word, complain about the potentialfor SP loss (exp loss) or the humongo wait times you have to put up with in eve in order to do some of the more advanced ship flying.
and that's just one pvp game, from the perspective of one player who only really plays 3x a week.
TL;DR version? you cant lump pvp players together and decide they all like the same thing.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Originally posted by jonrd463 I voted yes, but this poll is a little extreme. Some PVP is okay. Factional wars, battlegrounds, etc., so long as the people involved have chosen to PVP via flagging. If the demand for PVP is as high as its proponents let on, there will be tons of people running around flagged for PVP at all times, so it shouldn't be a problem, right?
It is extreme...And of course there will be some kind of PvP...
But the poll is making it's point quite well so far...And there is a point to be made here...
^ This
The point was to see, if we turned the extreme a full 180 in the other direction...what would the results look like.
While the other PvP poll is 50/50 this seems to be well in favor of no PvP at all.
Again, just an experiment to see, since often times it's a given that there needs to be PvP in a game when the reality is (again my take) that the vast majority of people could take it or leave it when it comes to PvP (I'm one of those, I enjoy it in small doses but eh...doesn't make or break a game for me). As long as the PvE is strong...that's what they want. Make that in sandbox form and you will have a winner.
Yes. EQ has never been a PvP game and hardcore PvPers only tend to ruin communities. They are never satisfied and if someone actually enjoys the game they go all mad in forums. So less PvP, more Everquest please.
Originally posted by ice-vortex So what in hell would you do in a sandbox game without PVP?
I just have to wonder, with a question like that, what makes you play MMORPGs at all? Isn't PVP done better in other game types, like Arena based, or FPS or MOBAs? MMORPGs are all about the "world" aspect and while I enjoy pvp to some extent I don't need it to have a great MMORPG experience. FFXI for all intents and purposes didn't really have PVP but it had one of the most immersive and difficult PVE aspects I've ever played and I would happily go back into a game like that again.
Just because I think this would be a neat social experiment.
And yes before I begin I understand some people don't think a sandbox is really a sandbox without PvP...going with the theory that it is still a sandbox without. Just want to see how people vote on this one to compare it to the other poll.
So no PvP and just PvE what say you?
Will I play it? Sure, but the real question is how long? Because PvP is the end all content and without it there will never be enough content to satisfy PvE players.
I hope they will have both PvE and PvP servers. That way, fans of both styles can have their fun. I don't enjoy PvP and I don't want to be forced to it. If EQN will be only PvP servers, I may take a look at it for a short while out of curiosity but I will not stay.
Originally posted by ice-vortex So what in hell would you do in a sandbox game without PVP?
I just have to wonder, with a question like that, what makes you play MMORPGs at all? Isn't PVP done better in other game types, like Arena based, or FPS or MOBAs? MMORPGs are all about the "world" aspect and while I enjoy pvp to some extent I don't need it to have a great MMORPG experience. FFXI for all intents and purposes didn't really have PVP but it had one of the most immersive and difficult PVE aspects I've ever played and I would happily go back into a game like that again.
This.
MMO's are about the whole experience, not just punching each other.
I also wonder how many of us PvErs used to be PvPers and have since changed. I know that I spend around 10 years as a "PvPer" and by the time I was 25 I kind lost my interest in world pvp.
It never felt honest, if you tried to take someone on even terms, they would run away. People only seemed to want to engage if they had superior numbers or levels. So most of my fun was had in 2v1 and 3v1 where I would take on people who thought they had some skills. But in the end it got tiring because proper fights as a test of ability never seemed to materialize. The closest you could get was dueling, and even then, most people refuse duels if their class isn't the "OP" class at the moment.
People just like to win, they don't want to be challenged and it makes for really unfun gaming experiences. World mobs always went the same way. People staring at each other until one group decided to take on the mob, then the others would finally engage.
I still love PvP, but I enjoy it in boxed form now. My opponents know I'm coming, I know they're coming and we're both trying to win. It's infinitely more fun. I never got "rush" or "fear" that I could be attacked at any moment - well maybe when I first started MMOing when I was 15. But that feeling faded as the reality became clearer.
Comments
I talked about a few different systems and games, so you don't like to play mmos, thanks for that information.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
because mobs will not try to grief you, corpse camp, exploit bugs, block "friendly" players etc
edit: not to mention the whole other layer sandbox elements add to griefing - who was never walled in in wurm, didnt have someone digging inescapable pit in his mine or pulled superhard mobs (trolls and up) which are capable of destroying buildings to their deeds while they were offline, doesnt know why to really dislike pvpers.
(not to mention thing totally specific to wurm - having someone build heavily npc guarded deeds all around yours with guards set to KOS)
There are plenty of non-PvP games out there that put you against the artificial intelligence. The main draw for some of those has been the depth of graphical detail and interactivity that could be achieved. This is mainly due to the fact you only have to worry about all the game functions from one perspective.
Once you introduce multi-player there have always been some compromises in the quality of interactivity with the world and graphics.
But now with pc's pushing huge pixels around and gaming companies making better game engines and more sophisticated depth of interactivity, this barrier between single and multi-player is starting to vanish.
So you may have gamers that are used to just playing against a.i. like Morrowind and Skyrim and other single player games starting to take serious notice of these new mmorpg's. I do not believe full featured AAA titles in the mmorpg should ever throw the pvp element out. There can be different servers with different rule sets or different areas designated or certain ways to flag yourself for pvp or pve...but never eliminate it.
Cant have a combat game that puts you on semi equal ground with people who want to pvp.
He wants to go kill people half his level who are busy trying to quest.
There are PvPers who are fine with a flag on/off system. The ones who want the whole FFA PvP are the ones who know that if people don't have to PvP, most often they won't. And without those people there will be very few battles.
I for one like the flag system as I do like to PvP, but don't like having to worry about ToolX and his squad running around killing people just because they can every second of my playtime.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I just dont see any game pulling off some epic world pvp battles.
The games that have open pvp where people choose or are forced to fight in the world and not in a battleground are lopsided as can be.
Either do to killing people much lower than you. Or you bringing a bigger zerg than they have. People dont like to lose. Theres a reason most people get as far away from a "fair" fight as they can.
While we are at it, let's have a flag on/off corpse runs, experience loss, mob grind, long leveling times, and item camping.
In case you didn't realize, that sentence is sarcasm. These PVErs in this thread clearly have absolutely no clue why people play games with PVP.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
Totally agree...
Exactly...100% correct!!!
It is extreme...And of course there will be some kind of PvP...
But the poll is making it's point quite well so far...And there is a point to be made here...
That most PVPers don't visit PVE threads?
Nonsense. Any PVPer passionate enough to make their voice heard will participate in such a poll to prove their overwhelming numbers.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
there are a lot of pvp gamers and not everyone plays pvp games for the same reason. I can think of a few dfferent pvp gamers just from my corp in eve.
some like to play against a challenging human opponent instead of (or in addition to) AI
some genuinely like to cause havok and pvp is their vehicle to do this in game
some actually dont actively pvp (unless it's home defense!!) but like the thrill of being vulnerable and living in a dangerous world
some like to lead pvp excursions (we call em roams in eve) but dont like single player PVP
some like the fact that they can control territory and exert their dominance over other players as a corp or alliance rather than as individuals.
some fit into more than one of these.
and none of these players, who are all here for pvp in some sense of the word, complain about the potentialfor SP loss (exp loss) or the humongo wait times you have to put up with in eve in order to do some of the more advanced ship flying.
and that's just one pvp game, from the perspective of one player who only really plays 3x a week.
TL;DR version? you cant lump pvp players together and decide they all like the same thing.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
^ This
The point was to see, if we turned the extreme a full 180 in the other direction...what would the results look like.
While the other PvP poll is 50/50 this seems to be well in favor of no PvP at all.
Again, just an experiment to see, since often times it's a given that there needs to be PvP in a game when the reality is (again my take) that the vast majority of people could take it or leave it when it comes to PvP (I'm one of those, I enjoy it in small doses but eh...doesn't make or break a game for me). As long as the PvE is strong...that's what they want. Make that in sandbox form and you will have a winner.
I just have to wonder, with a question like that, what makes you play MMORPGs at all? Isn't PVP done better in other game types, like Arena based, or FPS or MOBAs? MMORPGs are all about the "world" aspect and while I enjoy pvp to some extent I don't need it to have a great MMORPG experience. FFXI for all intents and purposes didn't really have PVP but it had one of the most immersive and difficult PVE aspects I've ever played and I would happily go back into a game like that again.
Guess you never played FFXI, then.
Not true...At least not IMHO...
It's not that the PvE's have no clue...That's certainly not the case with the one's I know...
It's mostly that they could really care less...
I hope they will have both PvE and PvP servers. That way, fans of both styles can have their fun. I don't enjoy PvP and I don't want to be forced to it. If EQN will be only PvP servers, I may take a look at it for a short while out of curiosity but I will not stay.
This.
MMO's are about the whole experience, not just punching each other.
I also wonder how many of us PvErs used to be PvPers and have since changed. I know that I spend around 10 years as a "PvPer" and by the time I was 25 I kind lost my interest in world pvp.
It never felt honest, if you tried to take someone on even terms, they would run away. People only seemed to want to engage if they had superior numbers or levels. So most of my fun was had in 2v1 and 3v1 where I would take on people who thought they had some skills. But in the end it got tiring because proper fights as a test of ability never seemed to materialize. The closest you could get was dueling, and even then, most people refuse duels if their class isn't the "OP" class at the moment.
People just like to win, they don't want to be challenged and it makes for really unfun gaming experiences. World mobs always went the same way. People staring at each other until one group decided to take on the mob, then the others would finally engage.
I still love PvP, but I enjoy it in boxed form now. My opponents know I'm coming, I know they're coming and we're both trying to win. It's infinitely more fun. I never got "rush" or "fear" that I could be attacked at any moment - well maybe when I first started MMOing when I was 15. But that feeling faded as the reality became clearer.