Open World PVP Pirates, Gankers, and Bandits...why not police?

irpugboss

Seems like every time I play Open World PVP games there are always bandit like players who seek out other players to kill for the fun of it/loot.  However, when I started to think about all the game mechanics devs try to punish this behavior I though about how I have never seen a player group of "Police" to protect areas and counter kill FFA PvPers. I have only seen "Police/Guard" guilds in the form of RP, and they do more text chat "policing" without actually doing anything.

I can imagine a Police/Guard guild would be alot of fun, win the Guild alot of fans, make the PVPers happy having something to fight against, and consider when they are out hunting. I can imagine that there will be gankers hidden among the police guild ranks but as with anything, over time, you can weed out problematic people and policies.

TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

The biggest problem to slow mindless murdering in a MMORPG as opposed to "real life" has never been the lack of law enforcement, police in a MMORPG is called "anti-PK" since the early days of UO.

The problem always was the lack of serious consequences compared to "real life". In real life, killing people means the risk of being killed yourself (and life is perma-death), to be severely injured or/and to end your life in prison. Nothing like that is possible in a MMO. Therefore the murdered and criminals have a huge advantage over the rest of the players, and what should be a MMORPG ends being a gank fest.

You can already play police in any MMORPG with FFA PvP. Just do it. It already happens. There is even police in theme parks like WoW, when high levels come to defend their lower level players when attacked by the opposite faction.

Vigilantes are not the same as police. Furthermore, the police in the real world usually has a massive advantage.

Theocritus

Evil never rests....More people thrive on ruining others gameplay than those wanting to make the gameplay enjoyable.

Apraxis

Some games do this to some extent.. like Age of Wushu, where bounty hunters are a own role, and bandits have to fear serious consquences. Also pathfinder Online want to try something similar to it. With some kind of Bounty hunter licence and bounty hunter guilds to have a better tranparence and a reputation, to avoid exploiting of the mechanismn.

But i do agree that a lot of games don't max out the possibility of this.. because really it is another gameplay option, and more gameplay options is always a good idea.

But as already said, to have something like police you also need a serious consequence system for criminals, and ingame laws(maybe even player made or influenced) to judge criminals and have a incentive for the police. Like the bounty hunter system in Age of Wushu or the planned Pathfinder Online.

But i really want like to see a system like that, it is for the great good of all involved parties.

PS: And by the way.. bounties for criminals don't have to come from players alone. If someone commints a crime in a country(player governed or not) the goverment could automaticly put a bounty on the criminal, and players can add just more bounty.

But as i already mentioned.. it is important, that the police/bounty hunter are somewhat thrustable, or that the system in place is not exploitable, so that they do have some sort of transparent reputation.

And another point could be, that the condemned criminal have to work for the goverment at least as long as to replace/work off the bounty on his head... with that the system it could even be somehwat self-financed.

Edit/PPS:

And now think of a system, with different mechanics to track down a criminal. like footstep system in Mount&Blade or like it is to some extent in Arche Age. There are a lot of potential options and different gameplay mechanics, where this could be really fun for both sides, and hold somewhat ruthless pking down.

TheLizardbones

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Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour Vigilantes are not the same as police. Furthermore, the police in the real world usually has a massive advantage.

And that advantage comes from the fact that they can kill you permanently if you resist. Doesn't work in a MMORPG. And having a faction of player having access to superior gear and weapons wouldn't work either. Police would turn into the new FOTM "role".

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Yup. You would have the same problems you have with real world police actually being people and not super heroes, but much worse.

I did play on a Minecraft server that had an unofficial police force, but the purpose was to record and report people who were using glitches in the game to cheat. That works out pretty well. They don't have any additional power in the game that they didn't gain for themselves though.

TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Vigilantes are not the same as police. Furthermore, the police in the real world usually has a massive advantage.

And that advantage comes from the fact that they can kill you permanently if you resist. Doesn't work in a MMORPG. And having a faction of player having access to superior gear and weapons wouldn't work either. Police would turn into the new FOTM "role".

They can keep you locked up for X amount time without the society turning on them. They usually do have better equipment, yes. Having a criminal record makes it much harder in cases where people do a background check.

 

I wouldn't mind the Police having a strong PvP bonus when engaging with criminals, no. I would not mind if a hell lot of NPCs refused to trade or interact with criminals that have been "tagged" by the police.

bcbully

This is getting ridiculous... Play Wushu, player constables (cops). Everyday I see two or three threads that say "I wish....I never..." and we been doing those exact things months in Wushu now.

 

Hell there's a saying with a group of people in my guild. "WE ARE THE LAW". This is a major reason Wushu is a civil FFA world 

cheyane

This is something off the top of my head so it may sound weird but I was  just thinking if you want realism in open PvP why can't we also have realism of corrupt police or places where if you get caught for murder or ganking or something like that they put you in a work gang or torture you. I mean you break the law and the law breaks you kinda of thing like in those movies where people get caught for speeding and end up in a workgang or worse. Corrupt people who are suppose to uphold the law who catch you and punish you way beyond the crime thing.

PAL-18

There is guilds and players who are role playing *police* or similar.

one thing is absolutely sure,it cant be done in cross server systems.

If someone remembers http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5105750593

and

http://towerwars.info/c/overview.php?d=5 in AO its bit high end,players gets message via bot in real time who is attacking someones towers and where,what level and such info and someone also is gathering that data.

If i want to play police,these kind of tools would be first on my list.

 

Apraxis

Originally posted by Vinterkrig

All this is going to turn out to is a bunch pve players talking about how they know all about the twisted mind of the pk'er.. because they've obviously gone to college and learned all about the human mind.

These topics are frustrating, not only because of the know it all pve doctors but especially since most MMOs these days, specially PVP ones are extremely indie and often not widely successful because of small companies and not being able to put out a polished game.

That is somewhat the problem. That a lot of people, not in the slightest afflicted from the topic jump into here and talk about weird things.

This topic solely concerns players in a sandbox world with ffa open pvp mechanics, and even more where you can actually commit a crime. So every PvE player, every themepark player is really not involved in that discussion. But they will partake, and nothing good will come out of it.. as usual.

NagelRitter

In some games, the gankers are favored by the game's mechanics since the police doesn't get any kill rights on criminals, and criminals already don't care about their status. Generally, in many of these games, anti-gankers end up worse off so nobody wants to do it.

The other issue is that the concept of anti-gankers is very flimsy. We do not have the law or the general population that controls what the police is doing, they're just another group of players at the end of the day, and players are flimsy and unrealiable.

GeezerGamer

FFA PVP mechanics can't just be set up where there are no consequences. That's ridiculous. Societies have rules. I am all for it, but the system needs a clear definition of what is honorable/defensive. When griefers engage in their behavior, they should get a flag. That flag means they now become a target. Other players can collect on a bounty for killing the flagged griefer. A person with this flag should not be allowed near any cities or villages as they are WANTED and will be attacked on site by any and all NPC guards. As well as players who want the bounty. I also think there should be systems in place that don't favor the combat PVPer only. What if there was a class that uses politics? Imagine in the above system where someone was able to force that flag on someone else. What about someone who plays markets? Being able to leverage their skills in a PVP set up where they can access another player's inventory and take something. Of course everything needs checks and balances over doing something will lead to that player getting caught and having consequences of their own as well. But Think about it. Your typical griefer will be thinking long and hard about beating up on the crafter f he knows he'll get his bank looted.

Grixxitt

 

There have been anti-PKs and consequences for PKers' actions since the beginning. Granted it hasn't always been enough to dissuade a potential griefer, but the mechanics are there. 

waynejr2

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

The biggest problem to slow mindless murdering in a MMORPG as opposed to "real life" has never been the lack of law enforcement, police in a MMORPG is called "anti-PK" since the early days of UO.

The problem always was the lack of serious consequences compared to "real life". In real life, killing people means the risk of being killed yourself (and life is perma-death), to be severely injured or/and to end your life in prison. Nothing like that is possible in a MMO. Therefore the murdered and criminals have a huge advantage over the rest of the players, and what should be a MMORPG ends being a gank fest.

You can already play police in any MMORPG with FFA PvP. Just do it. It already happens. There is even police in theme parks like WoW, when high levels come to defend their lower level players when attacked by the opposite faction.

Pretty much this.  OP, you guys keep trying to find a way for those who don't want to you want you.  They don't need you as much as you need them.  You have to offer them a ton more in return.

BadSpock

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Vigilantes are not the same as police. Furthermore, the police in the real world usually has a massive advantage.

And that advantage comes from the fact that they can kill you permanently if you resist. Doesn't work in a MMORPG. And having a faction of player having access to superior gear and weapons wouldn't work either. Police would turn into the new FOTM "role".

Aren't criminals supposed to have a hard life and difficulty getting access to the same quality of equipment and services the law is given for free?

That is 100% OK with me.

It'd show who the TRUE PKs are, and who are just a bunch of babies like that easy kills.

It should be exceptionally easier and more rewarding to play within the law or as a law man.

It should be exceptionally more challenging to play against the law.

The reward for that challenge is the notoriety and indeed the FUN for overcoming that challenge and living "free" in game without the rules of law.

Most PKs are just babies who like easy kills and preying on the weak. Has been true since UO.

Why spend the time/effort to farm/gain stuff the legit way when you can just take it from someone who is weaker?

Defenders of PK will say "it's smart to seek the path of least resistance - taking it from you."

Yeah well it is called pride. Earn your loot, earn your notoriety, earn your kills.

Bullies = cowards.

There are never enough good guys in FFA PvP games. Devs need to seriously look at why. They FEAR if they make the PK lifestyle actually challenging, they'll lose all their players.

Not true.

I bet you do a PROPER risk/reward penalty and law/lawlessness system in a MMO, it'd be quite popular.

Look at EvE online.

High sec keeps that game alive. Period.

BadSpock

Originally posted by coretex666

"Police" as a realistic regulatory mechanism in FFA PvP games is an idea which I have been suggesting myself as well.

However, for it to be effective in the regulation of the amount of PvP by which I mean to actually reduce it to reasonable level, it has to be accompanied by additional mechanisms as the pure existence of police would not be strong enough.

Support it by mechanism which makes PK have a reasonable chance to drop part of their gear once cought and / or killed by the "police" and you have an effective realistic regulatory mechanism which is much more suitable for virtual world than disallowing FFA PvP which simply does not make any sense.

Easy.

Police force gets free gear/items etc. and a paycheck. They get taken out by a bandit/pirate, their loss is just time/inconvenience.

If you are talking like EvE for a reference, 100% insurance reimbursement on ships and their modules/ammo lost during police actions. Maybe also Police can't be podded, PKs can still be podded.

PK gets taken out by police, items loss, time debuff, taken out too many times in a short time span get jail time, xp loss, etc.

You HAVE to make it unfair, and make it unfair for the PK.

The police get ALL the advantages, except that they are generally reactionary - they respond to and have to hunt down the bandit/pirate, so bandit/pirate has the initiative.

VengeSunsoar

Having players themselves decide to take on the role of cop IMO doesn't work.  There would be too many times where the perons(s) were either not on, or were doing something else in game and couldn't be bothered to go to the rescue.

I would say do one of 2 things:

1.  Hire an NPC to act as a cop

or better yet

2.  Have police be an actual role in the game with it's own rewards and experiences for catching the bad guy.  That would actually be kinda fun I think.

SomeOldBloke

Just do it the way EVE does it with concord. That works fine.

SpottyGekko

I've read dozens of threads like these over the years, possibly hundreds. There were zillions of suggestions, schemes, designs and whatnot, but none of them could address the central problem:

Police are reactive, criminals are pro-active.

 

As a criminal, you can spend all your game time planning and executing a crime (great fun), after which you have to evade capture (more great fun).

 

As a policeman, you have to wait around until a crime happens (yaaawn). Until then you're useless.

Unlike in RL, police in an MMO have virtually no preventative function. You can hardly arrest or kill "potential criminals" because they were displaying a dangerous weapon in public, lol

Apraxis

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Having players themselves decide to take on the role of cop IMO doesn't work.  There would be too many times where the perons(s) were either not on, or were doing something else in game and couldn't be bothered to go to the rescue.

I would say do one of 2 things:

1.  Hire an NPC to act as a cop

or better yet

2.  Have police be an actual role in the game with it's own rewards and experiences for catching the bad guy.  That would actually be kinda fun I think.

Yeah.. it have to be a own role. With own rewards and experiences. Like tracking down criminals. Like investigate a crime scene. With mechanics to support that. Like government (NPC or Player) do set up laws, pay regular bounties on criminals. And so on.

And the criminal, which are caught, have to pay. They have to finance the system. Like gathering resources in jail, or crafting stuff in jail, or whatever. So you can bring the bounty in depenence with punishment... every criminal have to work off at least twice of the bounty on his head(or something similar).. one part get refunded to the initial contributor(government or player or both) and the other part is just a additional tax for the city/nation to have a further incentive to have law enforcement.

Police/Bounty Hunter will get paid from the bounty, which would be finally get paid from the criminals himself.

You could do really a lot of interesting and fun stuff with such a system.

And if you do have a working criminal system you can easily add some other criminal stuff, like thievery, like burglary, like robbery and so on.

And i don't see anything wrong that the criminals will have the harder life.. they have choosen to be criminals.. so really it is on their part.

It is just a pity not enough developers have already intensively played with different mechanics like that.. and most have gone the easy(and in my opinion) and boring way to just take it out of the game. I can't really remember the last well thought out thief system. UO was maybe the last.. and as much as i can remember it was never a really working system.. as the foundry the criminal system never really worked in UO.

Mendel

I voted other.   While I don't see myself finding any kind of entertainment in a police role, it would totally depend on the implementation.

----------

For everyone who would be a policeman, here is a game scenario.

One high level player slips into an area populated with lower level players.   The high level kills another player without consent,  Before there is any alarm raised and the police can react, the perpetrator switches to another high level character and repeats his 'criminal' activity.

How does the in-game police role enact justice?  How would this discourage the 'bad behavior'?

Apraxis

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

I've read dozens of threads like these over the years, possibly hundreds. There were zillions of suggestions, schemes, designs and whatnot, but none of them could address the central problem:

Police are reactive, criminals are pro-active.

 

As a criminal, you can spend all your game time planning and executing a crime (great fun), after which you have to evade capture (more great fun).

 

As a policeman, you have to wait around until a crime happens (yaaawn). Until then you're useless.

Unlike in RL, police in an MMO have virtually no preventative function. You can hardly arrest or kill "potential criminals" because they were displaying a dangerous weapon in public, lol

No preventative function. Dangerous weapons. Why not? Of course it is most probably not for every place in such a world.

But why not have some high security cities(or only market places), where absolute no weapon is allowed. And guardsmen have a skill to examine for weapons, and disarm you. Well.. maybe it would not that much fun.

Hunting down thiefs/murder with enough mechanismn to help you(like a working tracking system). Ok.. you do have the log off problem.. but as much as i know this is solved in Age of Wushu turning every player into a NPC after logging off. So as criminal you have to be a lot more on guard... and can not hide with logging out.

I guess i really should try out Age of Wushu.. even if the bounty hunter system is the only one worth playing.

Phaserlight

Originally posted by krage

I though about how I have never seen a player group of "Police" to protect areas and counter kill FFA PvPers. I have only seen "Police/Guard" guilds in the form of RP, and they do more text chat "policing" without actually doing anything.

I can imagine a Police/Guard guild would be alot of fun, win the Guild alot of fans, make the PVPers happy having something to fight against, and consider when they are out hunting. I can imagine that there will be gankers hidden among the police guild ranks but as with anything, over time, you can weed out problematic people and policies.

http://viperguild.com/wiki/index.php5/Guild_History

Still waiting on those crowds of fans 

I prefer to think of ourselves as a group of ninja, carrying out political assassinations with an idealistic goal in mind.  This also works with the whole "Pirates" thing, because of Pirates vs. Ninjas.

Furthermore, there already is a faction standing system in place with Guarded / Monitored / Unmonitored zones, therefore we really are as much outlaws as other so-called pirate guilds.  However, there is one important difference: Vipers don't hold up passers-by for credits, and we don't run protection rackets.  It's in our charter:

http://viperguild.com/wiki/index.php5/Guild_Charter

Just to clarify: we've been around as a guild for 10 years, in one game.  We also have one of the lengthiest recruitment processes:

Zadawn

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

The biggest problem to slow mindless murdering in a MMORPG as opposed to "real life" has never been the lack of law enforcement, police in a MMORPG is called "anti-PK" since the early days of UO.

The problem always was the lack of serious consequences compared to "real life". In real life, killing people means the risk of being killed yourself (and life is perma-death), to be severely injured or/and to end your life in prison. Nothing like that is possible in a MMO. Therefore the murdered and criminals have a huge advantage over the rest of the players, and what should be a MMORPG ends being a gank fest.

You can already play police in any MMORPG with FFA PvP. Just do it. It already happens. There is even police in theme parks like WoW, when high levels come to defend their lower level players when attacked by the opposite faction.

You also do not kill the player permanently in an mmo therefore your point is moot.

Venger

This did happen in UO.  There were anti-pk guilds.  Problem is there were no tools to help them.  Also there was very little true reward for doing it.  But then if you start offering anti-pks rewards then a group of friends will play both sides against the middle.

Cephus404

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Vigilantes are not the same as police. Furthermore, the police in the real world usually has a massive advantage.

And that advantage comes from the fact that they can kill you permanently if you resist. Doesn't work in a MMORPG. And having a faction of player having access to superior gear and weapons wouldn't work either. Police would turn into the new FOTM "role".

Or they can put you away forever (effectively the same thing as permadeath) if your crimes are serious enough.  The problem is, there isn't any real permadeath in MMOs, even if your character dies, you can just start another one and you probably already have multiple alts to jump to.  There's just no comparison.