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Open World PVP Pirates, Gankers, and Bandits...why not police?

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  • Cephus404Cephus404 Member CommonPosts: 3,675
    Originally posted by Apraxis
    Originally posted by Vinterkrig

    All this is going to turn out to is a bunch pve players talking about how they know all about the twisted mind of the pk'er.. because they've obviously gone to college and learned all about the human mind.

    These topics are frustrating, not only because of the know it all pve doctors but especially since most MMOs these days, specially PVP ones are extremely indie and often not widely successful because of small companies and not being able to put out a polished game.

    That is somewhat the problem. That a lot of people, not in the slightest afflicted from the topic jump into here and talk about weird things.

    This topic solely concerns players in a sandbox world with ffa open pvp mechanics, and even more where you can actually commit a crime. So every PvE player, every themepark player is really not involved in that discussion. But they will partake, and nothing good will come out of it.. as usual.

    This is an open forum, anyone can post on any thread they want.  Welcome to the real world.  Besides, it isn't like PvPers don't go pulling the same crap on PvE threads.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  • ShadanwolfShadanwolf Member UncommonPosts: 2,392
    In UO in the 18 months I played(from day 1) with open pvp...their arrose an anti- pvp group who hunted "reds". Soooo...what the OP is suggesting is not new I think  there would be a sizable number who would do this.
  • maplestonemaplestone Member UncommonPosts: 3,099
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Besides, it isn't like PvPers don't go pulling the same crap on PvE threads.

    It is unwise to lash out at broad communities for the acts of individuals.

    edit: @lizardbones: ouch, touché

  • BetaguyBetaguy Member UncommonPosts: 2,629
    I voted other I am a Pirate for life, for realz... Bandit's are beneath us and have no class. ;)
    "The King and the Pawn return to the same box at the end of the game"

  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 3,078
    Originally posted by Zadawn
    You also do not kill the player permanently in an mmo therefore your point is moot.

    You don't have to; build up a significant social presence and the threat of retaliation becomes a sufficient deterrent to wanton destruction.  It's Machiavellian, really.

    Then again, if I actually believed that, would I still be in the same guild? image

    I remember (before my Viper days) deciding this one time that I would just sit in a particular area of Unmonitored space and shoot anything that passed my way indiscriminately.  It was fun at first, then a group of other players eventually showed up and killed me over, and over, and over.  One went so far as to tell me "this is what happens when you shoot people blindly".  I went to bed very upset that night. It's amazing how much that memory stuck with me; it's as real (from 9 years ago) as any real life memory I've formed.

    ...there are worse things than dying, as the saying goes.

    Of course there is more to the game than just that; there are actual, physical losses that can occur in the digital space: some items take hours and hours of gathering just the right resources, some take weeks or months, and they can be lost in the blink of an eye.  Building the right social structure can lead to the ability of crafting high risk items with confidence.  Part of the fun is also in solidifying those political structures that allow the gameplay to happen.

    If one of these structures were to turn against another player, or group of players, well... that sometimes causes established pilots to think twice about risking their virtual careers.  In a word; reputation.  It's not just the threat of being killed by that one player, as much as the threat of having a group of players turn against one as well as all of one's compatriots, for all foreseeable time.

    Myself, I prefer to be known as a zen master: cool in the face of hopeless odds.  Responsive, adaptable, intuitive.  Am I there yet?  Not even close.  However, after a decade I've learned a few things, and can certainly show someone who has been playing for a month how to stay alive in a dogfight or a furball.  The ability to transmit what I have learned in terms of skill is one of the reasons I continue playing.  The social structure just kind of comes along with it.  The "modus operandi" of defending the defenseless is an emergent facet of player structures built out of that social fabric; if I hadn't joined the Vipers, I probably would have ended up a pirate.  As it stands, I'm glad to be a member of the Vipers, and will do my best to help out the group in my own capacity because it leads to more fun, emergent gameplay.

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by maplestone
    Originally posted by Cephus404 Besides, it isn't like PvPers don't go pulling the same crap on PvE threads.
    It is unwise to lash out at broad communities for the acts of individuals.


    Since when does wisdom have anything to do with our behavior on these forums?

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775

    No i won't.

    I prefer a game without open world pvp. So policing is moot.

     

  • KonfessKonfess Member RarePosts: 1,667
    Why not Police?  Have you seen High Plains Drifter?

    Pardon any spelling errors
    Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
    Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
    Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
    Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
    It costs money to play.  Therefore P2W.

  • HolophonistHolophonist Member UncommonPosts: 2,091
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    The biggest problem to slow mindless murdering in a MMORPG as opposed to "real life" has never been the lack of law enforcement, police in a MMORPG is called "anti-PK" since the early days of UO.

    The problem always was the lack of serious consequences compared to "real life". In real life, killing people means the risk of being killed yourself (and life is perma-death), to be severely injured or/and to end your life in prison. Nothing like that is possible in a MMO. Therefore the murdered and criminals have a huge advantage over the rest of the players, and what should be a MMORPG ends being a gank fest.

    You can already play police in any MMORPG with FFA PvP. Just do it. It already happens. There is even police in theme parks like WoW, when high levels come to defend their lower level players when attacked by the opposite faction.

    The problem with this line of thinking is that you could very much make it easier to be caught in a game than in real life. So you can't just say that real life has worse consequences than in games so crimes in games will be more widespread.

     

    Also, the crimes being committed don't have a real life effect on the victims either. It doesn't at all seem unreasonable to have a system that has in-game punishments just like the crime they're committing is negatively impacting the victim IN-GAME.

  • HolophonistHolophonist Member UncommonPosts: 2,091
    Originally posted by Venger
    This did happen in UO.  There were anti-pk guilds.  Problem is there were no tools to help them.  Also there was very little true reward for doing it.  But then if you start offering anti-pks rewards then a group of friends will play both sides against the middle.

    I've made this exact point so many times. UO was already a ffa ow pvp with full loot game and still the vast majority of the people you ran into in the wild were "blue" and wouldn't attack you. I played on a free server that had an irc channel and if you ever got ganked in a dungeon, you could go to the IRC channel and mention it and there would be a dozen blue faction members there in no time to wipe out the pk's. I can't imagine how it would've worked if they were given the tools to do so.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Konfess
    Why not Police?  Have you seen High Plains Drifter?

    Because it isn't fun for me? I get to choose what games i play, right?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by Venger
    This did happen in UO.  There were anti-pk guilds.  Problem is there were no tools to help them.  Also there was very little true reward for doing it.  But then if you start offering anti-pks rewards then a group of friends will play both sides against the middle.

    I've made this exact point so many times. UO was already a ffa ow pvp with full loot game and still the vast majority of the people you ran into in the wild were "blue" and wouldn't attack you. I played on a free server that had an irc channel and if you ever got ganked in a dungeon, you could go to the IRC channel and mention it and there would be a dozen blue faction members there in no time to wipe out the pk's. I can't imagine how it would've worked if they were given the tools to do so.

    Why even risk to be ganked if you don't like it? Personally i quit UO before even beta ends partly because of FFA ow pvp (and partly the combat wasn't fun, and i need to click on rocks a lot if i want to level mining).

     

  • HolophonistHolophonist Member UncommonPosts: 2,091
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by Apraxis
    Originally posted by Vinterkrig

    All this is going to turn out to is a bunch pve players talking about how they know all about the twisted mind of the pk'er.. because they've obviously gone to college and learned all about the human mind.

    These topics are frustrating, not only because of the know it all pve doctors but especially since most MMOs these days, specially PVP ones are extremely indie and often not widely successful because of small companies and not being able to put out a polished game.

    That is somewhat the problem. That a lot of people, not in the slightest afflicted from the topic jump into here and talk about weird things.

    This topic solely concerns players in a sandbox world with ffa open pvp mechanics, and even more where you can actually commit a crime. So every PvE player, every themepark player is really not involved in that discussion. But they will partake, and nothing good will come out of it.. as usual.

    This is an open forum, anyone can post on any thread they want.  Welcome to the real world.  Besides, it isn't like PvPers don't go pulling the same crap on PvE threads.

    Yeah and in the real world he's allowed to tell you you're in the wrong thread, just like I'm now allowed to tell you that and you're allowed to respond to this post if you like. 

     

    Also I definitely agree with the first person quoted here. I'm sick of smug non-pvp players shoving their nose into a discussion to tell me I'm a psychopath.

  • HolophonistHolophonist Member UncommonPosts: 2,091
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by Venger
    This did happen in UO.  There were anti-pk guilds.  Problem is there were no tools to help them.  Also there was very little true reward for doing it.  But then if you start offering anti-pks rewards then a group of friends will play both sides against the middle.

    I've made this exact point so many times. UO was already a ffa ow pvp with full loot game and still the vast majority of the people you ran into in the wild were "blue" and wouldn't attack you. I played on a free server that had an irc channel and if you ever got ganked in a dungeon, you could go to the IRC channel and mention it and there would be a dozen blue faction members there in no time to wipe out the pk's. I can't imagine how it would've worked if they were given the tools to do so.

    Why even risk to be ganked if you don't like it? Personally i quit UO before even beta ends partly because of FFA ow pvp (and partly the combat wasn't fun, and i need to click on rocks a lot if i want to level mining).

    Because people enjoy organic gameplay that is community driven. It's more interesting to have somebody save you or avenge you than it is to just simply flip a switch and be invulnerable to player damage.

  • HolophonistHolophonist Member UncommonPosts: 2,091
    Originally posted by Phaserlight
    Originally posted by Zadawn
    You also do not kill the player permanently in an mmo therefore your point is moot.

    You don't have to; build up a significant social presence and the threat of retaliation becomes a sufficient deterrent to wanton destruction.  It's Machiavellian, really.

    Then again, if I actually believed that, would I still be in the same guild? image

    I remember (before my Viper days) deciding this one time that I would just sit in a particular area of Unmonitored space and shoot anything that passed my way indiscriminately.  It was fun at first, then a group of other players eventually showed up and killed me over, and over, and over.  One went so far as to tell me "this is what happens when you shoot people blindly".  I went to bed very upset that night. It's amazing how much that memory stuck with me; it's as real (from 9 years ago) as any real life memory I've formed.

    ...there are worse things than dying, as the saying goes.

    Of course there is more to the game than just that; there are actual, physical losses that can occur in the digital space: some items take hours and hours of gathering just the right resources, some take weeks or months, and they can be lost in the blink of an eye.  Building the right social structure can lead to the ability of crafting high risk items with confidence.  Part of the fun is also in solidifying those political structures that allow the gameplay to happen.

    If one of these structures were to turn against another player, or group of players, well... that sometimes causes established pilots to think twice about risking their virtual careers.  In a word; reputation.  It's not just the threat of being killed by that one player, as much as the threat of having a group of players turn against one as well as all of one's compatriots, for all foreseeable time.

    Myself, I prefer to be known as a zen master: cool in the face of hopeless odds.  Responsive, adaptable, intuitive.  Am I there yet?  Not even close.  However, after a decade I've learned a few things, and can certainly show someone who has been playing for a month how to stay alive in a dogfight or a furball.  The ability to transmit what I have learned in terms of skill is one of the reasons I continue playing.  The social structure just kind of comes along with it.  The "modus operandi" of defending the defenseless is an emergent facet of player structures built out of that social fabric; if I hadn't joined the Vipers, I probably would have ended up a pirate.  As it stands, I'm glad to be a member of the Vipers, and will do my best to help out the group in my own capacity because it leads to more fun, emergent gameplay.

    Great post. And none of it would happen without OW PvP. I think that's the strongest argument: sure you get assholes with OW PvP, but there's so much potential for incredible gameplay that I have no problem dealing with a few griefers now and then.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,857
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by coretex666

    "Police" as a realistic regulatory mechanism in FFA PvP games is an idea which I have been suggesting myself as well.

    However, for it to be effective in the regulation of the amount of PvP by which I mean to actually reduce it to reasonable level, it has to be accompanied by additional mechanisms as the pure existence of police would not be strong enough.

    Support it by mechanism which makes PK have a reasonable chance to drop part of their gear once cought and / or killed by the "police" and you have an effective realistic regulatory mechanism which is much more suitable for virtual world than disallowing FFA PvP which simply does not make any sense.

    Easy.

    Police force gets free gear/items etc. and a paycheck. They get taken out by a bandit/pirate, their loss is just time/inconvenience.

    If you are talking like EvE for a reference, 100% insurance reimbursement on ships and their modules/ammo lost during police actions. Maybe also Police can't be podded, PKs can still be podded.

    PK gets taken out by police, items loss, time debuff, taken out too many times in a short time span get jail time, xp loss, etc.

    You HAVE to make it unfair, and make it unfair for the PK.

    The police get ALL the advantages, except that they are generally reactionary - they respond to and have to hunt down the bandit/pirate, so bandit/pirate has the initiative.

    AS has been the case so often in Human history, the powerful organization set up to protect and serve becomes the new oppressors. Who will police the police?

  • shinkanshinkan Member UncommonPosts: 241


    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Having players themselves decide to take on the role of cop IMO doesn't work.  There would be too many times where the perons(s) were either not on, or were doing something else in game and couldn't be bothered to go to the rescue.I would say do one of 2 things:1.  Hire an NPC to act as a copor better yet2.  Have police be an actual role in the game with it's own rewards and experiences for catching the bad guy.  That would actually be kinda fun I think.

    I remember playing a game called Face of Mankind, where police was a faction. I joined the military faction, but i always admired the hard and difficult work the police did. They had stun gun, and when arrested you got sent to a labour prison, your weapons replaced with a mining laser. You had to work to get out again, unless one of the crime syndicates raided the prison to free some of their friends. Was kind of cool, heavy on RP, but game had lots of other weak points.

  • HolophonistHolophonist Member UncommonPosts: 2,091
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by coretex666

    "Police" as a realistic regulatory mechanism in FFA PvP games is an idea which I have been suggesting myself as well.

    However, for it to be effective in the regulation of the amount of PvP by which I mean to actually reduce it to reasonable level, it has to be accompanied by additional mechanisms as the pure existence of police would not be strong enough.

    Support it by mechanism which makes PK have a reasonable chance to drop part of their gear once cought and / or killed by the "police" and you have an effective realistic regulatory mechanism which is much more suitable for virtual world than disallowing FFA PvP which simply does not make any sense.

    Easy.

    Police force gets free gear/items etc. and a paycheck. They get taken out by a bandit/pirate, their loss is just time/inconvenience.

    If you are talking like EvE for a reference, 100% insurance reimbursement on ships and their modules/ammo lost during police actions. Maybe also Police can't be podded, PKs can still be podded.

    PK gets taken out by police, items loss, time debuff, taken out too many times in a short time span get jail time, xp loss, etc.

    You HAVE to make it unfair, and make it unfair for the PK.

    The police get ALL the advantages, except that they are generally reactionary - they respond to and have to hunt down the bandit/pirate, so bandit/pirate has the initiative.

    AS has been the case so often in Human history, the powerful organization set up to protect and serve becomes the new oppressors. Who will police the police?

    Well thankfully in game development you can tweak those advantages so you end up with something reasonably balanced. In real life the goal is basically to be 100% safe, so it's reasonable to make your police force as powerful as possible, resources permitting. That's why you end up with oppressive governments. In a game I'd think the point would be to emulate a balanced world where there are villains and good guys. You don't have the same objective goal of world peace because that would be boring. Game developers are basically playing God so they could just turn off all damage, even from monsters, if they truly wanted world peace.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Holophonist

    Why even risk to be ganked if you don't like it? Personally i quit UO before even beta ends partly because of FFA ow pvp (and partly the combat wasn't fun, and i need to click on rocks a lot if i want to level mining).

    Because people enjoy organic gameplay that is community driven. It's more interesting to have somebody save you or avenge you than it is to just simply flip a switch and be invulnerable to player damage.

    Obviously not by many players. Otherwise, why would themepark with zero pvp with a lot of solo-oriented content be popular?

    In fact, just keeping track of who i need to revenge upon when i log in is a chore. It is much more entertaining just to run a new pve dungeon.

     

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Konfess
    Why not Police?  Have you seen High Plains Drifter?

    A great movie. :)

     

    Skimmed through the posts and didn't see APB Reloaded mentioned.

    Here's a trailer for it.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
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  • HolophonistHolophonist Member UncommonPosts: 2,091
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Holophonist

    Why even risk to be ganked if you don't like it? Personally i quit UO before even beta ends partly because of FFA ow pvp (and partly the combat wasn't fun, and i need to click on rocks a lot if i want to level mining).

    Because people enjoy organic gameplay that is community driven. It's more interesting to have somebody save you or avenge you than it is to just simply flip a switch and be invulnerable to player damage.

    Obviously not by many players. Otherwise, why would themepark with zero pvp with a lot of solo-oriented content be popular?

    In fact, just keeping track of who i need to revenge upon when i log in is a chore. It is much more entertaining just to run a new pve dungeon.

    Yes, many people don't enjoy organic gameplay that is community driven. I was asked why people would be ok with being ganked if you don't enjoy being ganked... and I answered.

     

    Yes, themeparks atm have more success (and more failure) than sandbox mmo's. I guess american idol is the best show on tv.

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Member CommonPosts: 3,675
    Originally posted by maplestone
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Besides, it isn't like PvPers don't go pulling the same crap on PvE threads.

    It is unwise to lash out at broad communities for the acts of individuals.

    edit: @lizardbones: ouch, touché

    Because they didn't just do it to us, right?

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  • Cephus404Cephus404 Member CommonPosts: 3,675
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by Apraxis
    Originally posted by Vinterkrig

    All this is going to turn out to is a bunch pve players talking about how they know all about the twisted mind of the pk'er.. because they've obviously gone to college and learned all about the human mind.

    These topics are frustrating, not only because of the know it all pve doctors but especially since most MMOs these days, specially PVP ones are extremely indie and often not widely successful because of small companies and not being able to put out a polished game.

    That is somewhat the problem. That a lot of people, not in the slightest afflicted from the topic jump into here and talk about weird things.

    This topic solely concerns players in a sandbox world with ffa open pvp mechanics, and even more where you can actually commit a crime. So every PvE player, every themepark player is really not involved in that discussion. But they will partake, and nothing good will come out of it.. as usual.

    This is an open forum, anyone can post on any thread they want.  Welcome to the real world.  Besides, it isn't like PvPers don't go pulling the same crap on PvE threads.

    Yeah and in the real world he's allowed to tell you you're in the wrong thread, just like I'm now allowed to tell you that and you're allowed to respond to this post if you like. 

     

    Also I definitely agree with the first person quoted here. I'm sick of smug non-pvp players shoving their nose into a discussion to tell me I'm a psychopath.

    Welcome to posting on an open forum where anyone can post on any thread they want.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 Member UncommonPosts: 511
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    The biggest problem to slow mindless murdering in a MMORPG as opposed to "real life" has never been the lack of law enforcement, police in a MMORPG is called "anti-PK" since the early days of UO.

    The problem always was the lack of serious consequences compared to "real life". In real life, killing people means the risk of being killed yourself (and life is perma-death), to be severely injured or/and to end your life in prison. Nothing like that is possible in a MMO. Therefore the murdered and criminals have a huge advantage over the rest of the players, and what should be a MMORPG ends being a gank fest.

    You can already play police in any MMORPG with FFA PvP. Just do it. It already happens. There is even police in theme parks like WoW, when high levels come to defend their lower level players when attacked by the opposite faction.

    Lineage 2 had a harsh penalty to PKs: the possibility to drop a gear that took weeks of hard work grind to be made or buyed.

    You can see i disagree with your thesis that states the impossibility of establishing a efective deterrents to mindless player killing. Like in RL, the punishments tools will not ZERO the pks, but will be enough to avoid the game becoming polluted by mindless pking 24/7. The punishments still let the possibility to players take the risk to kill others if they see it worthy.

    A good system will also create tools to make legitimate player kills possible (e.g: guild wars, self-defense, bounty hunting, etc).

     

     



  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 Member UncommonPosts: 511
    Originally posted by Grixxitt

     

    There have been anti-PKs and consequences for PKers' actions since the beginning. Granted it hasn't always been enough to dissuade a potential griefer, but the mechanics are there. 

    I am starting to have the impression that, to some people, if ONE single episode of ganking occurs in a universe of 1000 player meetings, then the game is a "gankfest" and the punishment tools to griefers were a sounding fail!

     

     



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