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So EVERY new MMO is casual focused. What about the hardcore?
DeserttFoxx
Member UncommonPosts: 2,402
Everquest Next - Casual focus
Wildstar - Casual Focus
Blizzard Titan - already stated it will have a casual focus
Elder scrolls online - casual focus
So everything is being designed for casual players to just hop on and enjoy, very little challenge in dungeons, super simplified combat systems. What is being made for the hardcore player who wants a next gen game that promote difficult combat, and exploration, and figuring out quests and mechanics?
I find it hard to believe there are no hardcore players left that it is ok to just completely disregard that side of the playerbase.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Comments
They are too few in numbers, and require too much attention to truely matter in the long run.
Plus, they burn through content like there is no tomorrow.
Of course it is ok to disregard this side of the playerbase. It is a free market. Devs can disregard whoever they want.
If you are a dev, even if we are not talking about money, do you want to entertain 1000 players or just 10?
Don't call players Hardcore, devs are allergic to this term.
I would call it, people who like a challenge...................and no, there is not any game for this people.
Not enough to make money apparently.
I disagree, I believe that all hardcore people are still playing WoW end game.
I can bet my monthly wages that if a truly challenging (not hardcore) game comes out, lots of people will start quitting WoW............. because let's be honest, making 2.000.000 casual themparks didn't work, did it?
Maybe that's the wrong path? Just a guess
Let's see how long all the devs can go on without realising it......................
now: GW2 (11 80s).
Dark Souls 2.
future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
"Bro, do your even fractal?"
Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
playing: Dragon Age
Waiting: for FF14, Mass Effect
Want to try: Fallen Earth
The first problem everyone has (including the developers) is understanding what "hardcore" and "casual" even mean?!?!
I'll give you my definition:
Hardcore - This is someone who has lots of spare time and spends it playing a video game.
Casual - Someone who does not have a lot of time to spend playing a video game.
Notice in neither one of my definitions does skill/challenge/hard work come into play. In my view there are plenty of casual players who are very skilled, like a challenge and are ready to put in hard work, they simply lack the time to devote 20+ hours a week to playing a video game.
Undoubtedly there will be many who will disagree with my definitions and thus that proves my point. Gamers can't even agree on what makes 'hardcore' and what makes a 'casual' player. Developers face the same question.
I would agree Grimlock.
I have lots of time for games in my adult life (And I spend a sizable sum on them as well), but I don't consider myself hardcore as I don't raid, or participate in "end game" activities.
I do like challenging group content though, but can live without PvP.
That's nice and all, but why developers of AAA games do not get that Gamers by nature are "competitive" bunch and like a challenge................... that's why they play games.
Gamers get bored of an easy challenge, for me that's a no brainer but devs seems to think that players like to win easily and fast....................
WHY devs insist to make games where even a monkey can achieve everything.......................... and then they ask themselves WHY people are quitting their game after 2 months.
If the majority of players eat all your content in 2 months, that means that those players are not actually that casual, are they............. how difficult it is to understand this concept?
Players of mmorpgs might be disparaged to know this, but we're a pretty small minority, even among gamers. A 'casual' approach is designed to increase this base, and hopefully increase the developers revenues. The company widens its economic base, and makes it easier to justify the ever increasing cost to develop a game. If that means the game isn't everything I wanted, maybe the next one coming along will more to my taste.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Hardcore what? Hardcore is a degree of measure of a playstyle, not a playstyle.
Something great for the hardcore PVPers probably sucks for the hardcore grinders. Something great for the hardcore raiders probably flies in the face of the high penalty/permadeath crowd.
Which hardcore audience are you referring to and what data do you have indicating it is sizable enough to build an MMO for. Mind you, that MMO would have to also be awesome enough for them to leave their existing hardcore experience for it.
That's your multi-million dollar question: How big is the audience for the particular hardcore experience you are referring to?
The answer to that question gives a good indication of the interest and investment such a game may warrant.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Thats one thing 99% of this site keeps forgetting...though WoW has ample casual content, its high end raid content is the most hardcore and complex PVE content around. Most of the sub losses are due to casuals hopping from F2P to F2P game, not necissarly (though im sure its happened to some extent) hardcore players going to play another hardcore game.
Wildstar seems to be the only game that might rival WoW in raid content/difficulty.
And I'm the exact opposite. In my adult life I no longer have lots of excess time to play video games. I get 'maybe' one or two hours a night (not every night) after the kids go to bed, and assuming I'm not watching anything on tv with the wife, to play games. However, don't anyone dare imply to me that I'm somehow a bad player. When I do play I put my all into whatever game I'm playing. I don't want or expect anything handed to me on a silver platter. I learn how to play my class and I pride myself on playing well.
It's simple really.
Most new AAA MMOs are casual focused, because that's where the money is.
Still, a game can be "casual" in a way (i.e. accessible, easy to learn and enjoy, etc) and still feature hard, complex and demanding content, so it doesn't need to be totally black and white.
As for EQN I'd say it's too early to tell really. Seems to me a lot of "hardcore" people are just upset because it's something new and not EQ1 with better graphics.
Yes I understand that, but those casual you are talking about do not play the same MMO for more than 2 months............... that's not the kind of people that make money for MMO publishers.
If they want to keep money rolling in every month, they need to focus on MMO gamers (the ones that like a challenge)
Look at EvE which has a solid hardcore base, they have a steady base of 500k subscribers................... they probably make more money than all SoE games put together (which caters to casuals)
Those are the kind of players that MMO need to make money
it's absolutely hilarious and funny, because the casual market is so overcrowded with titles, at the end they'll all get a casual niche audience anyway. And these casuals never stay for long, that's the bonus!
X,-))
In the meantime, no one wants to make fantasy EvE.. heck no one even makes a twitch based space combat EvE...
casual, casual, accessible, please everyone, optional, choice, blah, blah, blah... it's sickening
You realize that makes no sense right? A casual player plays for limited amounts of time daily, whereas a Hardcore gamer will play a lot longer then that. The hardcore gamer will therefore play through more content before the casual ever does.
Hardcore gamers are also the ones who tend to burn through content so fast that they get bored at endgame waiting for new content. If new content isnt released soon enough they will move onto a new game (Like....locusts).
To start, be thankful that you are blissfully unaware of what a locust is or how they behave. It probably means you've never had to experience their rapacious assault on your town or fields.
Content Locusts are players who quickly swarm in, devour all the content possible, and hit the cap fast. They then become bored and leave. Most devs won't even bother trying to cater to the locusts because there is no way to keep up with them. The dev/publisher goal is to get that preorder purchase from them, preferably as a deluxe or CE, and prepare for the churn burst on days 31, 61, and 91.
The casual gamers aren't the ones at max level three weeks into the game. The casual gamers aren't the ones managing extensive charts and schedules on how fast they can beat the new raid, repeat it til everyone has their Tier x gear, and move it to farm status while they wait for the next one to come out. The casual gamers are exactly that - casual - and that's far from the behaviour of any locust I've ever seen.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
besides I never bought anything out of a cashshop from the games I played casually.
I actually bought stuff out of cashshops of more hardcore games because I was more invested.
I consider casual MMOs not worth my money, just for quick F2P entertainment
It depends on the "content" you are referring to. A casual will eat up WoW's casual content is no time (dungons, dailies, brawler's guild, LFR). Its hardcore conotent on the other had, hardcore players take months to clear it.
Just ask Method (Number 1 WoW guild atm)....it took them 2 months of raiding 16 hours a day non stop to clear the latest heroic raid tier. The avg player might clear it on normal, and even most "hardcore players" wont even clear it before the next tier.
THATS what most games are missing now a days. Forget loot treadmill, content that takes months for organized guilds/friends to conquer is what keeps players coming back. You hit the nail on the head with the "Hardcore gamers are also the ones who tend to burn through content so fast that they get bored at endgame waiting for new content."...thats an issue WoW has never had, and other games would do welll to copy from.
As keeps being pointed out, the reason the casual player is catered to is because the casual player represents the overwhelming majority of gamers and has the most money to spend, spends less time complaining and wastes the least time and money of tech support. Hardcore gamers just don't have the numbers or the financial clout.
I get so tired of watching niche groups whine about how they *DESERVE* a game to call their own. No you don't.
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You know I am amazed that no Developer understood the "secret" of WoW yet
Did they actually played properly the game they try to copy?
Did they just stop when they reached level cap?
Because the real WoW starts when you reach level cap.......................
I played WoW for 3 years after playing EQ and EQ2, and I can tell you that I never put so much time and effort in a MMO then when I was playing WoW endgame.
That's the thing though, there just aren't enough of them left. At least it seems that way. Developers aren't dropping dollars on development because the return to them would be minimal. The only thing the "hardcores" have left as far as hope is for an indie developer to come along and create a masterpiece. It looks bleak and i hate that for you guys. I'm not hardcore myself, but i can understand your frustration.
who is really Hardcore these days??
And there are few games for that parties....
want space pvp>? EVE online..
want fantasy open pvp etc etc? Darkfall
want Hard PVE?? go WoW Heroic Raids.
Alternatively you can try Planetside2,Fallen Earth,Mortal Online.
Truth is that real Harcore players don't care about new games. they have found what they are looking and stick with it.
People that are Harcore wannabes but in reality wanna dis every new game and act cool.. looking and looking and whining and never be happy.
I feel that it's pointless to complain about what you think other are getting. Focus on clearly explaining what you want in a way that makes it look practical to implement.