Blizzard Titan - already stated it will have a casual focus
Elder scrolls online - casual focus
So everything is being designed for casual players to just hop on and enjoy, very little challenge in dungeons, super simplified combat systems. What is being made for the hardcore player who wants a next gen game that promote difficult combat, and exploration, and figuring out quests and mechanics?
I find it hard to believe there are no hardcore players left that it is ok to just completely disregard that side of the playerbase.
Hardcore what? Hardcore is a degree of measure of a playstyle, not a playstyle.
Something great for the hardcore PVPers probably sucks for the hardcore grinders. Something great for the hardcore raiders probably flies in the face of the high penalty/permadeath crowd.
Which hardcore audience are you referring to and what data do you have indicating it is sizable enough to build an MMO for. Mind you, that MMO would have to also be awesome enough for them to leave their existing hardcore experience for it.
That's your multi-million dollar question: How big is the audience for the particular hardcore experience you are referring to?
The answer to that question gives a good indication of the interest and investment such a game may warrant.
+1
The definition of "hardcore" is just as vague as "sandbox". For instance, in my mind (and no it will not be changed) a general "hardcore" PVE player is someone who plays at least 5-8 hours or more a day in an MMO. Does my definition match other's? I don't know, I don't care, nor does it need to.
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx Everquest Next - Casual focusWildstar - Casual FocusBlizzard Titan - already stated it will have a casual focusElder scrolls online - casual focus So everything is being designed for casual players to just hop on and enjoy, very little challenge in dungeons, super simplified combat systems. What is being made for the hardcore player who wants a next gen game that promote difficult combat, and exploration, and figuring out quests and mechanics? I find it hard to believe there are no hardcore players left that it is ok to just completely disregard that side of the playerbase.
Can't you see that the hilariously inept gaming companies are *still* chasing WoW. /facepalm. Will they ever learn. They have tunnel vision and are oblivious to the countless $millions they are forfeiting.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Can't you see that the hilariously inept gaming companies are *still* chasing WoW. /facepalm. Will they ever learn. They have tunnel vision and are oblivious to the countless $millions they are forfeiting.
Says who? They are chasing MOBA now. And also multiplayer shooters like Destiny and Division.
Blizzard Titan - already stated it will have a casual focus
Elder scrolls online - casual focus
So everything is being designed for casual players to just hop on and enjoy, very little challenge in dungeons, super simplified combat systems. What is being made for the hardcore player who wants a next gen game that promote difficult combat, and exploration, and figuring out quests and mechanics?
I find it hard to believe there are no hardcore players left that it is ok to just completely disregard that side of the playerbase.
I think it was said best in Jerry Maguire, "show me the money". If there is money to be made, then companies will come. It seems, though, that the majority appear to continue to choose casual in regards to spending.
Cheers!
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
Besides all the many legitimate questions many people proposed about the various meanings of "Hardcore" I have my two cents.
From my definition of "Hardcore" it would be someone that plays many hours a day and regularly participates in brand new challenging content of whatever game it is they enjoy. For the many people I know including myself that used to fit this description many of us grew up, got jobs, found spouses, and had kids or some variation of that. With all of those things there is one issue hindering former "hardcore" players from continuing to be hardcore and that is time there just isn't enough hours in the day for many of us.
Many of you might say well what about the youngsters that still have that time? Well many of them haven't been required to play in a fashion many consider hardcore because they were too young when games that required hours upon hours a day to play were new and exciting. They grew up on what some refer to as "casual" games so they have no want for this supposed hardcore game they want to play now and have fun now not grind away for hours and hours. And for the people that never got the jobs, kids, wives etc you are too small of a group for developers to care about plain and simple. There just isn't a market for people with 6-10 hours a day 7 days a week with harsh rules and grind it out playstyle.
The problem these companies will come into in regards to casuals and hardcore is when they continue to adapt the f2p model. What I mean is that it has been show by the industries own studies the the majority of f2p games revenue comes from a very minority of players, essentially the whales. People that are going to be spending large amounts of money on a game, say $1000, is less likely to be casual, and more likely to be over invested in the game time wise. This is where I see the flaw in the argument saying they are chasing casuals for the money. There are probably more of them, and they do keep the servers full which is very important for a MMO as a business standpoint. But if you are making these games to make money (which they are) you will want to focus on the people who give you that money, aka the whales.
Many of you also assume that the industry knows what it is doing. I would say this is a flawed logic, many companies make great mistakes or missteps, and I can point out very many in the game industry as I am sure you can as well. Just because they are doing it, doesn't mean it is the right choice, or its because they have some great skill or knowledge that we do not know about. Darksoul made a major profit, Minecraft made lots of money, Tomb Raider was a failure. They are all good games, the difference is management decisions. Large companies do not by default know what they are doing.
There is a fuckton of casual gamers, and a bunch of hardcore gamers. How you define these 2 terms is up to you, but still, by any means, there will always be more casuals than hardcorers.
Soooo, are we going to produce and sell something with a little client base, or are we going to produce and sell something with a fuckhuge client base? Our product is not a luxurius one (not a very very luxurius one, i mean), so we can't charge crazy amounts of money for it.!
Mmmmm... Mmmm... Maybe we should aim toward the casuals, shouldn't we? They are going to pay the same individually, and are a lot more of people. Yes, we should produce this with casual public in mind. Yes.
Supply and demand, as always, is the key here.
Make the casuals decrease in number and we will return to the old good hardcore days of yore.
Until then, we are fucked / damned to replay our old games.
Casual and Challenge are mutually exclusive terms.
Not in my book. Casual for me means a player with not that much time. Maybe 5-10 hours a week at maximum.
And challenge for me means something is really difficult.. and not that it takes 1000 hours to grind through.
So there is a audience for challenge in both the casual and the hardcore crowd.. and you will find in both a huge amount of people crying it is to difficult.
WoW raids are hardcore because you have to invest a lot of time very regulary. WoW raids are not challenging/difficulty.
So please be more accurate what you really want and about you really complain.
And yes... i do believe the overall difficult level in MMOs is extremely low. And maybe the amount of content, where you need 6 hours a day and at least 5 times a week may also be declining.
Casual and Challenge are mutually exclusive terms.
Not in my book. Casual for me means a player with not that much time. Maybe 5-10 hours a week at maximum.
And challenge for me means something is really difficult.. and not that it takes 1000 hours to grind through.
How can you not see that those are 2 completely different terms. Yes the casuals don't have a lot of time so 5-10 hours a week is fine, however there is nothing in that statement about how long something takes to finish, or how hard that is to finish.
How long something takes to finish, and how long someone is able to play at any given point in time, and even how challenging that is to finish are all very different topics.
Challenge is how hard something is
Casual is about how much time you have at one setting.
You can be very casual, and still have a very very challenging game. As long as the overall experience can be broken down into smaller time chunks.
edit - I guess I should have said in my original post they are not mutually exclusive terms. What I meant by my statement was that they are two different terms, describing 2 different things and are not really interchangeable.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Casual and Challenge are mutually exclusive terms.
No they're not. Nothing says the ability to jump right in and achieve something within a half an hour, can't be challenging. And nothing says a straight 6 hour sitting is challenging - apart from your buttocks and bladder of course.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Casual and Challenge are mutually exclusive terms.
No they're not. Nothing says the ability to jump right in and achieve something within a half an hour, can't be challenging. And nothing says a straight 6 hour sitting is challenging - apart from your buttocks and bladder of course.
See my edit in my 2nd post.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Casual and Challenge are mutually exclusive terms.
No they're not. Nothing says the ability to jump right in and achieve something within a half an hour, can't be challenging. And nothing says a straight 6 hour sitting is challenging - apart from your buttocks and bladder of course.
See my edit in my 2nd post.
Yeah, you should've used "not" there somewhere. And I believe the term you're trying to find is "false dichotomy", and I would agree; OP presents a false dichotomy. Challenge and casual friendliness have nothing to do with each other.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Casual and Challenge are mutually exclusive terms.
No they're not. Nothing says the ability to jump right in and achieve something within a half an hour, can't be challenging. And nothing says a straight 6 hour sitting is challenging - apart from your buttocks and bladder of course.
See my edit in my 2nd post.
Yeah, you should've used "not" there somewhere. And I believe the term you're trying to find is "false dichotomy", and I would agree; OP presents a false dichotomy. Challenge and casual friendliness have nothing to do with each other.
Thats what I meant haha.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
As keeps being pointed out, the reason the casual player is catered to is because the casual player represents the overwhelming majority of gamers and has the most money to spend, spends less time complaining and wastes the least time and money of tech support. Hardcore gamers just don't have the numbers or the financial clout.
I get so tired of watching niche groups whine about how they *DESERVE* a game to call their own. No you don't.
Casual and Challenge are mutually exclusive terms.
Not in my book. Casual for me means a player with not that much time. Maybe 5-10 hours a week at maximum.
And challenge for me means something is really difficult.. and not that it takes 1000 hours to grind through.
How can you not see that those are 2 completely different terms. Yes the casuals don't have a lot of time so 5-10 hours a week is fine, however there is nothing in that statement about how long something takes to finish, or how hard that is to finish.
How long something takes to finish, and how long someone is able to play at any given point in time, and even how challenging that is to finish are all very different topics.
Challenge is how hard something is
Casual is about how much time you have at one setting.
You can be very casual, and still have a very very challenging game. As long as the overall experience can be broken down into smaller time chunks.
edit - I guess I should have said in my original post they are not mutually exclusive terms. What I meant by my statement was that they are two different terms, describing 2 different things and are not really interchangeable.
Ok.. yeap.. now with the missing "not" i do agree with you.
As keeps being pointed out, the reason the casual player is catered to is because the casual player represents the overwhelming majority of gamers and has the most money to spend, spends less time complaining and wastes the least time and money of tech support. Hardcore gamers just don't have the numbers or the financial clout.
I get so tired of watching niche groups whine about how they *DESERVE* a game to call their own. No you don't.
That's a really odd thing to say. Wouldn't 10 MMORPGs with niche audiences do better than 10 WoW clones catering to the same audience? (in an inferior manner to WoW itself by the way) If I developers don't want to make games I am interested in then I will happily not pay them any money. People who feel the same as I do need to vote with their wallets and not give money to the uninspired. I bet we will see new casual themeparks die even faster than they already do if jaded MMO searchers can hold back on preordering stuff they know will be uninspired drivel. By now you should all know better. Vote with your wallets, SWTOR proved that casual themeparks are no longer desired. Stick to your guns and play non MMORPG games if you must for a while rather than give money to the uninspired.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now! I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
As keeps being pointed out, the reason the casual player is catered to is because the casual player represents the overwhelming majority of gamers and has the most money to spend, spends less time complaining and wastes the least time and money of tech support. Hardcore gamers just don't have the numbers or the financial clout.
I get so tired of watching niche groups whine about how they *DESERVE* a game to call their own. No you don't.
That's a really odd thing to say. Wouldn't 10 MMORPGs with niche audiences do better than 10 WoW clones catering to the same audience? (in an inferior manner to WoW itself by the way) If I developers don't want to make games I am interested in then I will happily not pay them any money. People who feel the same as I do need to vote with their wallets and not give money to the uninspired. I bet we will see new casual themeparks die even faster than they already do if jaded MMO searchers can hold back on preordering stuff they know will be uninspired drivel. By now you should all know better. Vote with your wallets, SWTOR proved that casual themeparks are no longer desired. Stick to your guns and play non MMORPG games if you must for a while rather than give money to the uninspired.
Yes, possibly.
However there are worlds of difference between the statements WoW clone, and catering to casuals. Yes wow does cater to casuals, however I'm postive you and everyone else can think of many many ways that devs can get the casuals without making a wow clone, the only thing it must have is a small time commitment in each session.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
As keeps being pointed out, the reason the casual player is catered to is because the casual player represents the overwhelming majority of gamers and has the most money to spend, spends less time complaining and wastes the least time and money of tech support. Hardcore gamers just don't have the numbers or the financial clout.
I get so tired of watching niche groups whine about how they *DESERVE* a game to call their own. No you don't.
That's a really odd thing to say. Wouldn't 10 MMORPGs with niche audiences do better than 10 WoW clones catering to the same audience?
If one could make a niche MMO that would satisfy its particular audience within the budget constraints of the realistic revenue it would generate, then yes.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
+1
The definition of "hardcore" is just as vague as "sandbox". For instance, in my mind (and no it will not be changed) a general "hardcore" PVE player is someone who plays at least 5-8 hours or more a day in an MMO. Does my definition match other's? I don't know, I don't care, nor does it need to.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
Can't you see that the hilariously inept gaming companies are *still* chasing WoW. /facepalm. Will they ever learn. They have tunnel vision and are oblivious to the countless $millions they are forfeiting.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
twitch.tv/boonmackle
Says who? They are chasing MOBA now. And also multiplayer shooters like Destiny and Division.
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*sigh*
Casual friendliness does not mean "casual focus", and being casual friendly does not mean there is nothing for the hardcore.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
+1
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Casual and Challenge are mutually exclusive terms.
I think it was said best in Jerry Maguire, "show me the money". If there is money to be made, then companies will come. It seems, though, that the majority appear to continue to choose casual in regards to spending.
Cheers!
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
Besides all the many legitimate questions many people proposed about the various meanings of "Hardcore" I have my two cents.
From my definition of "Hardcore" it would be someone that plays many hours a day and regularly participates in brand new challenging content of whatever game it is they enjoy. For the many people I know including myself that used to fit this description many of us grew up, got jobs, found spouses, and had kids or some variation of that. With all of those things there is one issue hindering former "hardcore" players from continuing to be hardcore and that is time there just isn't enough hours in the day for many of us.
Many of you might say well what about the youngsters that still have that time? Well many of them haven't been required to play in a fashion many consider hardcore because they were too young when games that required hours upon hours a day to play were new and exciting. They grew up on what some refer to as "casual" games so they have no want for this supposed hardcore game they want to play now and have fun now not grind away for hours and hours. And for the people that never got the jobs, kids, wives etc you are too small of a group for developers to care about plain and simple. There just isn't a market for people with 6-10 hours a day 7 days a week with harsh rules and grind it out playstyle.
The problem these companies will come into in regards to casuals and hardcore is when they continue to adapt the f2p model. What I mean is that it has been show by the industries own studies the the majority of f2p games revenue comes from a very minority of players, essentially the whales. People that are going to be spending large amounts of money on a game, say $1000, is less likely to be casual, and more likely to be over invested in the game time wise. This is where I see the flaw in the argument saying they are chasing casuals for the money. There are probably more of them, and they do keep the servers full which is very important for a MMO as a business standpoint. But if you are making these games to make money (which they are) you will want to focus on the people who give you that money, aka the whales.
Many of you also assume that the industry knows what it is doing. I would say this is a flawed logic, many companies make great mistakes or missteps, and I can point out very many in the game industry as I am sure you can as well. Just because they are doing it, doesn't mean it is the right choice, or its because they have some great skill or knowledge that we do not know about. Darksoul made a major profit, Minecraft made lots of money, Tomb Raider was a failure. They are all good games, the difference is management decisions. Large companies do not by default know what they are doing.
There is a fuckton of casual gamers, and a bunch of hardcore gamers. How you define these 2 terms is up to you, but still, by any means, there will always be more casuals than hardcorers.
Soooo, are we going to produce and sell something with a little client base, or are we going to produce and sell something with a fuckhuge client base? Our product is not a luxurius one (not a very very luxurius one, i mean), so we can't charge crazy amounts of money for it.!
Mmmmm... Mmmm... Maybe we should aim toward the casuals, shouldn't we? They are going to pay the same individually, and are a lot more of people. Yes, we should produce this with casual public in mind. Yes.
Supply and demand, as always, is the key here.
Make the casuals decrease in number and we will return to the old good hardcore days of yore.
Until then, we are fucked / damned to replay our old games.
Not in my book. Casual for me means a player with not that much time. Maybe 5-10 hours a week at maximum.
And challenge for me means something is really difficult.. and not that it takes 1000 hours to grind through.
So there is a audience for challenge in both the casual and the hardcore crowd.. and you will find in both a huge amount of people crying it is to difficult.
WoW raids are hardcore because you have to invest a lot of time very regulary. WoW raids are not challenging/difficulty.
So please be more accurate what you really want and about you really complain.
And yes... i do believe the overall difficult level in MMOs is extremely low. And maybe the amount of content, where you need 6 hours a day and at least 5 times a week may also be declining.
How can you not see that those are 2 completely different terms. Yes the casuals don't have a lot of time so 5-10 hours a week is fine, however there is nothing in that statement about how long something takes to finish, or how hard that is to finish.
How long something takes to finish, and how long someone is able to play at any given point in time, and even how challenging that is to finish are all very different topics.
Challenge is how hard something is
Casual is about how much time you have at one setting.
You can be very casual, and still have a very very challenging game. As long as the overall experience can be broken down into smaller time chunks.
edit - I guess I should have said in my original post they are not mutually exclusive terms. What I meant by my statement was that they are two different terms, describing 2 different things and are not really interchangeable.
I find the title of this string to be oxymoronic in nature.
No they're not. Nothing says the ability to jump right in and achieve something within a half an hour, can't be challenging. And nothing says a straight 6 hour sitting is challenging - apart from your buttocks and bladder of course.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
See my edit in my 2nd post.
Yeah, you should've used "not" there somewhere. And I believe the term you're trying to find is "false dichotomy", and I would agree; OP presents a false dichotomy. Challenge and casual friendliness have nothing to do with each other.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Thats what I meant haha.
How about one that caters to both, like WoW?
Ok.. yeap.. now with the missing "not" i do agree with you.
That's a really odd thing to say. Wouldn't 10 MMORPGs with niche audiences do better than 10 WoW clones catering to the same audience? (in an inferior manner to WoW itself by the way) If I developers don't want to make games I am interested in then I will happily not pay them any money. People who feel the same as I do need to vote with their wallets and not give money to the uninspired. I bet we will see new casual themeparks die even faster than they already do if jaded MMO searchers can hold back on preordering stuff they know will be uninspired drivel. By now you should all know better. Vote with your wallets, SWTOR proved that casual themeparks are no longer desired. Stick to your guns and play non MMORPG games if you must for a while rather than give money to the uninspired.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
Yes, possibly.
However there are worlds of difference between the statements WoW clone, and catering to casuals. Yes wow does cater to casuals, however I'm postive you and everyone else can think of many many ways that devs can get the casuals without making a wow clone, the only thing it must have is a small time commitment in each session.
If one could make a niche MMO that would satisfy its particular audience within the budget constraints of the realistic revenue it would generate, then yes.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre