Sure there is. You just need a game with a difficulty slider like Diablo 3.
Sorry, I was talking (check the topic!) about MMOs and not pve instance grinders with 6 people max. Feel free to name any MMOs with such a slider. And no, I am not talking about hardmode instances being somehow comparable, I am looking for a MMO that's a challenge in its whole and not just in some kind of instance.
You didn't get the memo ... most MMO gameplay is in instances anyway. That is why D3 is pretty much close enough to a MMO for me.
MMOs should learn from D3. Difficulty sliders work perfectly in instances.
And it is not like there is no difficulty setting in MMOs. LFR/normal/hard mode raid. Dungeon difficulty in DDO. They should just do more.
If you have to reduce your MMO gaming to non MMO titles/elements to actually see something like a challenge that's sad and only confirming my point, that right now (yes, that's the topic) the casualisation doesn't leave much on the market for MMO fans that don't want it piss easy but prefer a challenge that's outside of (often soloing) a 6+ man instance.
So yes, I stand to todays MMOs simply not providing any real challenge due to casualisation. Even though there might be small (non mmo) parts of the game that are some kind of challenge at first.
bcbully: thanks for the advice. DF:UW still wasn't on my list, I'll check it out, thx.
If you have to reduce your MMO gaming to non MMO titles/elements to actually see something like a challenge that's sad and only confirming my point, that right now (yes, that's the topic) the casualisation doesn't leave much on the market for MMO fans that don't want it piss easy but prefer a challenge that's outside of (often soloing) a 6+ man instance.
So yes, I stand to todays MMOs simply not providing any real challenge due to casualisation. Even though there might be small (non mmo) parts of the game that are some kind of challenge at first.
I don't actually disagree that MMOs, outside of some raid with difficulty settings, are not very challenging.
My point is that they *can* be .. with a difficulty slider. The reason of making leveling content easy is to make the most casual player happy. You can do that, and make others who want a challenge happy too with a difficulty slider.
Which D3 has accomplished with flying colors. It can be enjoyed by the most casual players (with zero challenge), or so challenging that hardcore fans can tremble with fear for any mis-step (hard core perma death on MP10). MMOs should learn from it.
Then why cant they make a mmorpg that is both hardcore and casual focus?
They probably can. They choose not to. They don't owe the hardcore players a game. It is a free market. If they determine they want to go after a more casual audience for whatever reason they like (more money, better ROI, less risk, easy ....), it is their prerogative.
There is zilch you can do about it.
Well, they could play some of the hardcore games that already exist out there. The more players that the current hardcore games get, the more likely some developer will attempt to make new games to cater to this type of player. The problem is that a lot of these "hardcore" players are just full-time whiners who will always find something wrong with any game and who will never be satisfied with anything. There is no satisfying people like this, hence game companies just ignore them.
"Casual" doesn't automatically mean that the game is easy mode. Let's not misinterpret what these folks are producing.
Games like Rift and WoW are casual, and their raid and mini-raid encounters are very difficult to complete. Granted, leveling up is too easy in my opinion but I can't see why EQ Next couldn't make the leveling process a longer, more difficult process without having to call itself hardcore.
I think that casual can simply mean that the game is designed so that players can do some group content within a couple of hours. When you offer content that takes three or more hours to complete (dungeon crawl time, corpse retrieval, travel time, etc.) then you are cutting off a large population of gamers who simply can't afford to unplug from life for that many hours at one sitting.
Blizzard Titan - already stated it will have a casual focus
Elder scrolls online - casual focus
So everything is being designed for casual players to just hop on and enjoy, very little challenge in dungeons, super simplified combat systems. What is being made for the hardcore player who wants a next gen game that promote difficult combat, and exploration, and figuring out quests and mechanics?
I find it hard to believe there are no hardcore players left that it is ok to just completely disregard that side of the playerbase.
A hardcore player will find his or her challenge regardless the casual focus of today's games.
I also don't believe the game or it's developer have to dictate how to play their game towards hardcore gamers.
I also don't believe there are truly hardcore games. Just games that can be played pretty hardcore but that's due to it's players.
My thoughts would be that if you consider yourself hardcore at a computer game you got problems and no 1 to blame but yourselves lol, it is exactly what others have stated, you guys don't play these games for the adventure you play them to be the so called best or fastest to the top. (dependant on what you class as HC of course )
MMO's ere not designed for you to keep spamming next on the Quest givers instructions, your meant to enjoy the lore and backstory, they were not made for ppl to conquer in a day or two even if it is possible to do so, they are not about you as an individual they are about a community coming together to enjoy some time and adventures together, admittedly alot of them have lost there way over the years and hopefully a True AAA Sandbox will arise sooner rather than later and bring the genre back to it's roots.
I'm not a hardcore player by any means and tbh don't really want to be as i have a family a job and let's not forget...a life outside of computer games but would also love to see more of a challenge in today's mmo's but unfortunately there are 10 fold of casual players to the hardcore player and any company in there right mind will cater for the masses, they would be retarded to not do so.
The sooner people realize games are not going to change unless we as a community need to change the better it will be for everyone. No company is making any real changes to the genre because as soon as they do they get shot down because as much as we all scream change as soon as it is done people complain about it does not work for them because they are so used to there old play methods (A.K.A WoW style) The MMO community of today as opposed to 10 years ago is selfish, greedy, arrogant and childish, we can see this by alot of different forum post flaming one game after another, Since when were MMO's made to be enemies of eachother? they were made for us to enjoy and to line the creators pockets with our cash, they were not made for us to become bitter, rude and downright obnoxious towards eachother, so ask yourself why this is? it is not because of the developers or the games it is because of us the community, and this us where the problems lie, people will never be happy and companies will continue to make whatever they feel like untill we lift our game and show some respect, show that we are ready to change and try something new and support that of which we love and ignore that of what we do not care about.
Either way this post will mean nothing to most nor will the arguing on specific threads like this as it get's no where and does not make an inch of a difference to the relevant subject.
Would you say League Of Legends is casual or hardcore focus?
Both, yes?
Then why cant they make a mmorpg that is both hardcore and casual focus?
Is hardcore in a mmorpg different from a hardcore in League Of Legends?
Grinding mobs 24/7 to level your character is not hardcore.
Its boring.
Definitely. 100% absolutely and without a doubt different.
Competition style online games based on rank and leader boards
- do not penalize you for failure. Your success or failure is evident in your win/loss ratio or KDR.
- allow you to choose your match and, to a certain degree, your opponents
- have limited persistence
- have player defined item ownership duration
- have zero loss of acquired points or items
Therefore the activities and behavior that can be measured as hardcore or casual, with the exception of time vegging out at the screen, are very different from those in a persistent state world based on advancement through repetition and penalties designed to retard that same advancement.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Blizzard Titan - already stated it will have a casual focus
Elder scrolls online - casual focus
So everything is being designed for casual players to just hop on and enjoy, very little challenge in dungeons, super simplified combat systems. What is being made for the hardcore player who wants a next gen game that promote difficult combat, and exploration, and figuring out quests and mechanics?
I find it hard to believe there are no hardcore players left that it is ok to just completely disregard that side of the playerbase.
It is all about market share. hardcore is a small percentage so...
its sad that dumb people with sawdust for brains and hamers as hands hold the biggest percentage
No, it's sad that there are people out there at all who think that video games ought to be a lifestyle.
In all honestly... all the discussions about hardcore vs. casual, or in the same way single play vs. group play.
All this is not mutual exclusive. You can have all of it, and in all honestly any good MMORPG should have all of it.
That the beginning have to be more casual friendly is what the majority of gamers expect. (majority is casual) And it is ok to be introduced, but then the game could spread out into different directions, more difficult content and easier content. Exactly the same should be for group play.. there should always be the option to play alone, but at the same time there should also be content played with a group, and where group play get an advantage.
That is as example, one thing, which i have to criticise at GW2. There is no advantage, no reason, no incentive to play as a group(except instanced dungeons), all content in the open world, all heart quests are solo experience. And that is in my mind one of the disadvantages of quest based progression.. quests are single player content most of the time. The same stands true for World of Warcraft.. except dungeons everything was single player. In the old games with spot camping you could at least choose to play as a group and you got a lot of advantages out of it. And you could choose your difficult level, and get rewarded for it. Want it a little bit harder.. look for a higher spot.. easy mode.. take a not so high spot.
Another problem with that is the usual strong vertical progression. Is content to difficult, just out level it. If the progression is just rather flat in vertical progression, with a reasonable cap (like UO) you can have content, which will always be hard, and can be from the very beginning hard.. because all your content is not that much gated, and you don't have to deliver all content for all different level ranges, but instead just once. With the vertical progression all hard or hardcore content, and mostly group content, was relegated to endgame, and there most of the time gated and instanced. In open world scenario hard content could be scaled by players, as how many they bring to the area.
In conclusion.. i want everything. It should be playable for casuals, it should offer enough solo experience, it should offer and reward group content(with different scale.. and for pvp too), it should have rather easy stuff, and some damn difficult stuff, and at the best right from the beginning. Come on.. now deliver it.
Blizzard Titan - already stated it will have a casual focus
Elder scrolls online - casual focus
So everything is being designed for casual players to just hop on and enjoy, very little challenge in dungeons, super simplified combat systems. What is being made for the hardcore player who wants a next gen game that promote difficult combat, and exploration, and figuring out quests and mechanics?
I find it hard to believe there are no hardcore players left that it is ok to just completely disregard that side of the playerbase.
It is all about market share. hardcore is a small percentage so...
its sad that dumb people with sawdust for brains and hamers as hands hold the biggest percentage
No, it's sad that there are people out there at all who think that video games ought to be a lifestyle.
It is even more sad that the aforementioned people think that video games are measures of intelligence.
There are plenty of PhDs who have no clue about video games, because they just don't care enough.
So everything is being designed for casual players to just hop on and enjoy, very little challenge in dungeons, super simplified combat systems. What is being made for the hardcore player who wants a next gen game that promote difficult combat, and exploration, and figuring out quests and mechanics?
I find it hard to believe there are no hardcore players left that it is ok to just completely disregard that side of the playerbase.
Everquest Next - Casual focus
Wildstar - Casual Focus
Blizzard Titan - already stated it will have a casual focus
Elder scrolls online - casual focus
OOOH, so hardcore people want harder gameplay, so they want the old mechanics back?
New combat mechanics: dodging attacks, aiming at target.
Old Combat mechanics: tab target, standing still. You can watch TV in raids.
New trinity: doesnt exist. Nobody is safe.
Old trinity: tank takes almost all the damage. Dedicated healer.
OMG THE OLD DAYS WAS SO HARD
You want difficult exploration, and figuring out quests and mechanics too?
New mechanics: Everquest Next will be procedural generated and has permanent changes to areas, so no 2 servers are very alike. So you cant alt-tab to see where to go on a website for very long, then they have to edit every day for each server
Old mechanics: well, DAOC that I started with had very few quests, so 90% of the time it was just killing mobs then move to next area with higher level mobs.
Later came ? and ! above NPCs, which there are none of in EQN.
So the old days was not hardcore. It was boring grind my 2 year old nephew could do.
the only thing that was hardcore in old games were that it took forever to gain a level up or skill up and that you lost experience points from death and could possibly de-level. And pvp mmos were free for all pvp with full loot. Plus people had to camp for mobs to spawn and grind on them all day and if its a boss type mob its worse since dungeons were open. If these are the things that made mmos hardcore than im fine with it gone.
i laugh when people bring up hard core, eq was hard core, uo was hardcore, wow first incarnation was hardcore, ac was hard core. eve is hardcore. darkfall is hardcore too, so i hear, prob the only one released in the past few years, but has a small following.
NOTHING since is remotely hardcore, every game out in the last 5 years, i have played and gotten to max level within two weeks and basically quit and moved on. hell i had a tumor removed from my head THIS year, and i managed to start Aion, get to level 50 while half baked out of my skull on painkillers, while in the hospital for a month.., in fact, when i got out of the hospital and off the pain meds, i had no real recollection how i got to that level., and accumulated so much loot cash and goodies.
easy mode, no real challenges, no community, three things to describe games nowdays.
Casuals never stick to one game, all of those games are going to compete and kill each other.
The hype for EQNext has already dropped and very few people are still interested. They better pray Disney fans and Minecraft fans are interested or their ship has sailed.
Oh you can find some "hardcore" mmo's - but it seems that over the years hardcore has become synonymous with FFA PVP so pretty much all "hardcore" mmo's have that little addition to it unfortunately. But of course to the pvp players there is no such thing as a hardcore mmo without FFA PVP
Casuals never stick to one game, all of those games are going to compete and kill each other.
The hype for EQNext has already dropped and very few people are still interested. They better pray Disney fans and Minecraft fans are interested or their ship has sailed.
very few people are still interested? are you basing this off of mmorpg.com? LOL
Casuals never stick to one game, all of those games are going to compete and kill each other.
Pretty bad reasoning.
No one ever sticks to one SP game. Lots of SP games are flourishing. CoD, Dishonored, Bioshock, D3, SKyrim, ... the list of successful SP games are huge.
There is no need for players to stick to one game for that game to be successful.
My thoughts would be that if you consider yourself hardcore at a computer game you got problems and no 1 to blame but yourselves lol, it is exactly what others have stated, you guys don't play these games for the adventure you play them to be the so called best or fastest to the top. (dependant on what you class as HC of course )
Why would considering oneself being hardcore in a computer game mean that "you got problems"? I see people being hardcore at skating, sports contests like iron man, at renovating their oldtimer car, at playing chess or at reciting poems at contests. It simply means they enjoy something and are up for a challenge/competition and don't want everything blown up their a**.
The only question I have is why you need to look down on people that like a challenge. Is it some weird form of jealousy?
Comments
If you have to reduce your MMO gaming to non MMO titles/elements to actually see something like a challenge that's sad and only confirming my point, that right now (yes, that's the topic) the casualisation doesn't leave much on the market for MMO fans that don't want it piss easy but prefer a challenge that's outside of (often soloing) a 6+ man instance.
So yes, I stand to todays MMOs simply not providing any real challenge due to casualisation. Even though there might be small (non mmo) parts of the game that are some kind of challenge at first.
bcbully: thanks for the advice. DF:UW still wasn't on my list, I'll check it out, thx.
I don't actually disagree that MMOs, outside of some raid with difficulty settings, are not very challenging.
My point is that they *can* be .. with a difficulty slider. The reason of making leveling content easy is to make the most casual player happy. You can do that, and make others who want a challenge happy too with a difficulty slider.
Which D3 has accomplished with flying colors. It can be enjoyed by the most casual players (with zero challenge), or so challenging that hardcore fans can tremble with fear for any mis-step (hard core perma death on MP10). MMOs should learn from it.
Well, they could play some of the hardcore games that already exist out there. The more players that the current hardcore games get, the more likely some developer will attempt to make new games to cater to this type of player. The problem is that a lot of these "hardcore" players are just full-time whiners who will always find something wrong with any game and who will never be satisfied with anything. There is no satisfying people like this, hence game companies just ignore them.
"Casual" doesn't automatically mean that the game is easy mode. Let's not misinterpret what these folks are producing.
Games like Rift and WoW are casual, and their raid and mini-raid encounters are very difficult to complete. Granted, leveling up is too easy in my opinion but I can't see why EQ Next couldn't make the leveling process a longer, more difficult process without having to call itself hardcore.
I think that casual can simply mean that the game is designed so that players can do some group content within a couple of hours. When you offer content that takes three or more hours to complete (dungeon crawl time, corpse retrieval, travel time, etc.) then you are cutting off a large population of gamers who simply can't afford to unplug from life for that many hours at one sitting.
A hardcore player will find his or her challenge regardless the casual focus of today's games.
I also don't believe the game or it's developer have to dictate how to play their game towards hardcore gamers.
I also don't believe there are truly hardcore games. Just games that can be played pretty hardcore but that's due to it's players.
My thoughts would be that if you consider yourself hardcore at a computer game you got problems and no 1 to blame but yourselves lol, it is exactly what others have stated, you guys don't play these games for the adventure you play them to be the so called best or fastest to the top. (dependant on what you class as HC of course )
MMO's ere not designed for you to keep spamming next on the Quest givers instructions, your meant to enjoy the lore and backstory, they were not made for ppl to conquer in a day or two even if it is possible to do so, they are not about you as an individual they are about a community coming together to enjoy some time and adventures together, admittedly alot of them have lost there way over the years and hopefully a True AAA Sandbox will arise sooner rather than later and bring the genre back to it's roots.
I'm not a hardcore player by any means and tbh don't really want to be as i have a family a job and let's not forget...a life outside of computer games but would also love to see more of a challenge in today's mmo's but unfortunately there are 10 fold of casual players to the hardcore player and any company in there right mind will cater for the masses, they would be retarded to not do so.
The sooner people realize games are not going to change unless we as a community need to change the better it will be for everyone. No company is making any real changes to the genre because as soon as they do they get shot down because as much as we all scream change as soon as it is done people complain about it does not work for them because they are so used to there old play methods (A.K.A WoW style) The MMO community of today as opposed to 10 years ago is selfish, greedy, arrogant and childish, we can see this by alot of different forum post flaming one game after another, Since when were MMO's made to be enemies of eachother? they were made for us to enjoy and to line the creators pockets with our cash, they were not made for us to become bitter, rude and downright obnoxious towards eachother, so ask yourself why this is? it is not because of the developers or the games it is because of us the community, and this us where the problems lie, people will never be happy and companies will continue to make whatever they feel like untill we lift our game and show some respect, show that we are ready to change and try something new and support that of which we love and ignore that of what we do not care about.
Either way this post will mean nothing to most nor will the arguing on specific threads like this as it get's no where and does not make an inch of a difference to the relevant subject.
Definitely. 100% absolutely and without a doubt different.
Competition style online games based on rank and leader boards
Therefore the activities and behavior that can be measured as hardcore or casual, with the exception of time vegging out at the screen, are very different from those in a persistent state world based on advancement through repetition and penalties designed to retard that same advancement.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
No, it's sad that there are people out there at all who think that video games ought to be a lifestyle.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
In all honestly... all the discussions about hardcore vs. casual, or in the same way single play vs. group play.
All this is not mutual exclusive. You can have all of it, and in all honestly any good MMORPG should have all of it.
That the beginning have to be more casual friendly is what the majority of gamers expect. (majority is casual) And it is ok to be introduced, but then the game could spread out into different directions, more difficult content and easier content. Exactly the same should be for group play.. there should always be the option to play alone, but at the same time there should also be content played with a group, and where group play get an advantage.
That is as example, one thing, which i have to criticise at GW2. There is no advantage, no reason, no incentive to play as a group(except instanced dungeons), all content in the open world, all heart quests are solo experience. And that is in my mind one of the disadvantages of quest based progression.. quests are single player content most of the time. The same stands true for World of Warcraft.. except dungeons everything was single player. In the old games with spot camping you could at least choose to play as a group and you got a lot of advantages out of it. And you could choose your difficult level, and get rewarded for it. Want it a little bit harder.. look for a higher spot.. easy mode.. take a not so high spot.
Another problem with that is the usual strong vertical progression. Is content to difficult, just out level it. If the progression is just rather flat in vertical progression, with a reasonable cap (like UO) you can have content, which will always be hard, and can be from the very beginning hard.. because all your content is not that much gated, and you don't have to deliver all content for all different level ranges, but instead just once. With the vertical progression all hard or hardcore content, and mostly group content, was relegated to endgame, and there most of the time gated and instanced. In open world scenario hard content could be scaled by players, as how many they bring to the area.
In conclusion.. i want everything.
It should be playable for casuals, it should offer enough solo experience, it should offer and reward group content(with different scale.. and for pvp too), it should have rather easy stuff, and some damn difficult stuff, and at the best right from the beginning. Come on.. now deliver it. 
Well Hardcore or Casual, depends on the player.
Honestly I'd place myself in between cause I don't play well.
I really don't know what to put here.
It is even more sad that the aforementioned people think that video games are measures of intelligence.
There are plenty of PhDs who have no clue about video games, because they just don't care enough.
OOOH, so hardcore people want harder gameplay, so they want the old mechanics back?
New combat mechanics: dodging attacks, aiming at target.
Old Combat mechanics: tab target, standing still. You can watch TV in raids.
New trinity: doesnt exist. Nobody is safe.
Old trinity: tank takes almost all the damage. Dedicated healer.
OMG THE OLD DAYS WAS SO HARD
You want difficult exploration, and figuring out quests and mechanics too?
New mechanics: Everquest Next will be procedural generated and has permanent changes to areas, so no 2 servers are very alike. So you cant alt-tab to see where to go on a website for very long, then they have to edit every day for each server
Old mechanics: well, DAOC that I started with had very few quests, so 90% of the time it was just killing mobs then move to next area with higher level mobs.
Later came ? and ! above NPCs, which there are none of in EQN.
So the old days was not hardcore. It was boring grind my 2 year old nephew could do.
What kind of messed up game do you play where you can watch TV during a raid.
And jumping around like a jackhammer spamming your DPS buttons isn't an MMO, it's a solo version of wack-a-mole.
All these recent MMO have been nothing but solo adventures without any form of coherence or community.
You never played ranged DPS I guess.
there is no harcore anymore plain and simple.
i laugh when people bring up hard core, eq was hard core, uo was hardcore, wow first incarnation was hardcore, ac was hard core. eve is hardcore. darkfall is hardcore too, so i hear, prob the only one released in the past few years, but has a small following.
NOTHING since is remotely hardcore, every game out in the last 5 years, i have played and gotten to max level within two weeks and basically quit and moved on. hell i had a tumor removed from my head THIS year, and i managed to start Aion, get to level 50 while half baked out of my skull on painkillers, while in the hospital for a month.., in fact, when i got out of the hospital and off the pain meds, i had no real recollection how i got to that level., and accumulated so much loot cash and goodies.
easy mode, no real challenges, no community, three things to describe games nowdays.
over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting...
Casuals never stick to one game, all of those games are going to compete and kill each other.
The hype for EQNext has already dropped and very few people are still interested. They better pray Disney fans and Minecraft fans are interested or their ship has sailed.
very few people are still interested? are you basing this off of mmorpg.com? LOL
Pretty bad reasoning.
No one ever sticks to one SP game. Lots of SP games are flourishing. CoD, Dishonored, Bioshock, D3, SKyrim, ... the list of successful SP games are huge.
There is no need for players to stick to one game for that game to be successful.
Why would considering oneself being hardcore in a computer game mean that "you got problems"? I see people being hardcore at skating, sports contests like iron man, at renovating their oldtimer car, at playing chess or at reciting poems at contests. It simply means they enjoy something and are up for a challenge/competition and don't want everything blown up their a**.
The only question I have is why you need to look down on people that like a challenge. Is it some weird form of jealousy?