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The quality of communities has dropped since WoW (a tirade)
Piechunks
Member Posts: 136
I wasn't born yesterday. I realize the first MMOs were text-based and played them. I played EQ as well (didn't like it, but I wouldn't disparage another for liking it), but preferred other MMOs that came out shortly afterward.
The one trend that has disturbed me the most is that people have become a lot dumber, impatient and hostile if you were to compare a randomly selected sample to that of the "vanilla" days of WoW.
It pains me somewhat to relay anecdotal evidence as if it were gospel, but my foray into GW2 has shown me just how prevalent the problem is among modern MMO gamers:
1. There is no more patience to ensure "quality" runs to the point of ruin.
Have a phone call? You had better not pick it up, or your party who is completely unwilling to wait for anything will attempt the boss if you're not back by the 30 second mark and wipe.
Have a slow computer? You had better not attempt to play with a party, because that marginal minute they have to wait before beginning the instance is an eternity.
Are you completely new to an instance? You had better not attempt it, because there is 0 willingness to type out in detail, or even communicate through VOIP what to do and how to do it.
2. There is no more willingness to accept personal blame, but blame is to be doled out to others.
Did somebody pull a mob by accident and get himself killed while trying to keep up with the group? That very person will most likely go on a tirade about the group not tending to him, but will later refuse to resurrect a fellow team member after a boss event, since he had finished and no longer had any need for the group.
I can't count how many times somebody has asked the group to kick another for doing the very same mistake she/he did many times before, or after the fact.
3. There is no desire, or ability to figure things out independently: guides must be sought after, followed to the letter and obeyed at all times.
It's very amusing when you see a group try and figure something out for the first time; even if you try and assist, or even manage to figure it out in due time, the remainder of the group tends to wander around like chickens with their heads cut off, simply because they do not have a guide, or are completely unwilling to try and learn new things.
It's quite infuriating when you see people with "suboptimal" specs get berated/excluded due to group ignorance: if something cannot be reduced to a binary variable, it is simply not considered. You are either "good", or "bad" with nothing in between, since things can never be considered in situational detail.
4. A lack of empathy and "antisocial" behavior
I know it's somewhat ironic to use antisocial when talking about an MMO, but nowadays people are so selfish and so unwilling to even spare a mere second to help out a random player who needs it, it equates to negligence to the point of malice.
Not to mention that people will rarely attempt to socialize with people outside of their guild, or even engage in idle chatter without some sort of game-economic impetus behind it. In fact, a lot of the things I took for granted in older games, like EQ (and now WoW) are simply defunct; if the game doesn't hold guild specific events, you can forget about ever doing them.
If you want to find a group of people who are even willing to help you with something you cannot complete yourself, you will more often than not find no assistance outside of your circle, regardless of how many people are in your particular instance, or have disposable time.
I realize that this post serves as nothing more than a means of venting my frustrations, but I have to ask whoever managed to get through of all of that one question:
if people behave so awfully in-game and the point of playing a MMO is to interact with these people, then why even bother?
Comments
It's how our culture is becoming. Everyone woll be a keyboard douche bag I do miss the old community and how people would help. Only thing that sucks is when you help people today they never even say thanks or at least /bow. It won't change until the person behind the desk changes and parents stop letting there young kids on MMO games.
casual players dont have time to invest in online communities and friends, and thats who developers are targetting these days.
Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)
I totally agree! And also as an older player (if 43 is old), I to have seen a vast decline. WoW gets a lot of the blame, especially over the "I want it NOW!" crowd, and I had my fair share of the "Faster! faster!" squad there also.
But I am starting to think it's life and teenagers in general. I never thought I'd hear myself say it but.... These younglings today get far to much, they are impatient, greedy and have zero manners or respect (Oh great, I sound like my Father used to now! /rasp).
I look back at playing DAoC with many fond hours of laughter, fun, and happiness where players were friendly, helpful, would stand around buffing lowbies and handing them out cash to help them on their way, all the while chatting away or craicing jokes as we stood around the forge... It was heaven!
No trials. No tricks. No traps. No EU-RP server. NO THANKS!
...10% Benevolence, 90% Arrogance in my case!
Sounds like the raiding community got crappier as time has gone on, which is no surprise.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Yeah, guess it's a generational thing... kind of makes me happy I don't have kids. LoL makes me happy I don't.
Obviously annoying people have always existed, but I think certain in-game mechanics of modern games promote a negative sort of behavior to the point it has almost become the norm.
I don't necessarily mean vocal rudeness, but impatience for sure is on the rise. It has to do with games being shorter and there being a general mindset amongst all the gamehoppers of "finishing" a game as quickly as possible, sure, but what else?
Mobs in MMOs have become faster to kill in all of the new dungeon-grind based themeparks, socializing is no longer required to run dungeons, character progression has been cut down, the modern themepark gear grind has been shortened to non-existant levels and dungeons are designed in away that everything in them can be taken down by area of effect spells and what not (and dungeon runs no longer take hours to complete). Combat is becoming more action-based and requires more reflexes, yet less thinking and math.
I deeply believe it has to do with game design, for human behavior doesn't change in such drastic ways in one generation.
The Weekly Wizardry blog
Most socalled MMORPGs are plain small group coop instance grinders or completely aimed at single players. Everything is so pi** easy that you see half way decent players solo instances that were aimed at groups or raids. Since real mmo content is rare to non existing these days in what is being named "MMO" it seems like a logic consequence to me that this leads to a playstyle that doesn't take other players into account.
I instantly found some social people in DF:UW and Eve but in new school mmos aimed at casuals? Rarely.
I don't think it was necessarily WoW that caused the sense of community to drop to the current state, but Blizzard did absolutely nothing to prevent the decline either.
Blizzard, by being the 'leader' in MMO's for years (due to WoW's obvious popularity), should have set the standard by community management. Instead, they more or less let the masses go unchecked.
You can discuss LFG, LFR, etc.,.. but it all starts with the behavior of the players and the lack of moderators.
People seem to really get a kick out of themselves by saying the worst and most offensive things.
I see 'if you don't like it, then leave'.
Wrong answer.
I also see 'freedom of speech, bro!'.
Wrong answer.
Just because you 'can' say anything, doesn't mean you 'should'.
Blizzard (and every other community out there) needs to start policing their games and taking out the garbage.
Don't agree? I'm sure some people don't.
It's not about being 'mature' or even 'adult'... it's about being socially acceptable. And really, a lot of what is posted and/or seen in trade and general chat just doesn't meet that standard.
Start there... and watch everything else slowly come back into scope and fall in line.
We had lots of trolls in UO and Lineage 2. So I am curious where you see the changing point, when did it become popular in your mind?
I can put a timeline on it because in FFXI,i witnessed an amazing community,the best i have ever seen in any game,yet even in that game it changed badly.It was around the 4th year of the game,so around 2008.
It would be easy to lay blame to Wow since Wow held 65% of the overall community but i won't blame Wow.I could also blame the fact that that era brought about more kids,as early days of DSL was rare and most gamer's were adults able to afford it.
However i don't even want to blame the age category.What i notice in EVERY single game seems to be human nature.Players like to be friendly to get what THEY NEED,then quickly turn their cheek at anyone else below them.
I lost track at how often i see gamer's get into arguments in chat ,then one guy comes out and uses the "I have 5 max level toons and beat every boss in the game argument.Perhaps that is what started all the need to race to end level,so you could act out the pro elite attitude and treat everyone else as noobs.
I wish gamer's could act friendly all the time,but i just don't see it happening,the same trend will always be there,friendly for awhile,then super l33t later on.I see in games people asking for help,then some smart ass feels the need to /shout "You should be able to solo that you noob".That same person probably had 10 players helping him.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I do not think that the games are fully to blame for this problem. If you take a look at online games in the mid to late 90's, you will find that the people that played them to KNOW more about computer technology in general to play the games. The internet was an emergent technology at the time, and most households during that period did not even have access to the internet (let alone have a PC).
Fast forward to today. It is much easier to find and play computer games even without much knowledge about computers. You can find a PC in almost every household, and the chances that a household has internet access are much higher.
I guess the point I am trying to make is that technology has become more accessible and easier to use. The result of this is there are more people of lower intelligence that are using computers to play games.
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
Its not something that started with WoW....
As someone noted UO had the same issues. The thing with UO was that there were no "wide area" chat channels so you could only see behavior if you were right there. UO did have a lot of "good community" and active player cities (which simply meant that you managed to place your houses together.. since there was no real mechanic to make it happen other wise).
What people blame on WoW... from my point of view started in EverQuest. What you did see in WoW was the lack of any real form of moderation and/or eula/tos enforcement on trade chat (as a prime example). Most people in EQ that were using yell did not talk like that.... and I can't really say they would have been banned.. but it was rare to see it. What you had was mostly people that talked like that (or acted like that) in a close up situation more similar to UO...
Its all about money... period.
If you look at much of the behavior... it violates the TOS/EULA of the game... AND if you really ever look your ISP has an AUP (acceptable use policy) with a lot of the same wording as a TOS/EULA... if those things were actually enforced... eventually those certain people wouldn't even be able to get online except through some type of public connection and once they (internet café etc) got a letter from their ISP... they would ban the person from their café instead of losing their internet service.
It doesn't happen for the same reason MMO's hardly ever perma ban... $$$ so of course the community has declined... there is no actual punishment for doing the things these people do...
*People of inferior intellect regarding the use of computers.
I guess my point was that you had to spend time to download, set up, and learn how to play. Now you can download a game in ten minutes, log in, and yell "L O L U R G A Y" without any effort required.
Another reason why I think that communities seem to have gotten worse is the fact that when you logged into a game back in the mid to late 90's it was a new experience to see and interact with people. Players could meet, talk to, and play with other people from across the globe: something that was new and exciting.
Today, the awe factor of meeting others through digital means has worn off.
e.g.
Then: "Whoa, is that a person? I wonder where they are from. *Waves hello*
Now: "Whoa, look at all those people in my game! So what, how can I win?"
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
I didn't say griefing in open world dungeons was a problem of today, or any of that stuff, but impatience, and the negative behavior that seems to stem from this impatience was what I mainly wrote about in that post. I'm not opposed to instancing, so that isn't the point here.
But what I am saying is that the instanced dungeon experience, too, has become in a way antisocial somehow, and I feel the console-type gameplay and fast progression and all the gamehopping is what drives this sort of behavior.
The Weekly Wizardry blog
I agree with you 100%. In UO, AC and EQ, we didn't have millions of players, so our scum ratio was much lower. We still have plenty of people willing to help out, they are just harder to find. I belong to a guild of "older gamers" and it's just like the old days. We don't use any kind of voice chat (for the most part) and everyone is willing to help out and work together on everything.
I think the helpful people are still out there, just have to find them in guilds or communities.
I think you're right. Rare loot drops and gearscore are two things that come to mind that seem to have done just as much harm as good, if not more.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
When the internet was young and the online arenas fewer and smaller, you didn't notice them too often - online gaming back then was the equivalent of a rural village where everyone knew each other and the few psychos and bullies stood out against the general population, who worked hard and had to cooperate to make a living under those primitive conditions.
Now the quiet countryside has transformed into a bustling megapolis where enormous masses of people mix everyday, and just like in our great cities, life is mostly shallow, easy and comfortable, and people become strangers to each other. The guy you bump into on the subway might be a friendly type or a total asshole, but most likely he'll just do his best to ignore you. And you don't care since there are millions of other people all around you.
Crying about this change us like crying about the industrial revolution. It's just the way historical changes works, and if you dislike big cities you can always move to the countryside (i.e play on private servers, old school emulators and so on). Whining like an oldtimer about 'em good ol' days will just make you bitter, and possibly the target of the younger generation's ridicule.
No.
The first MMO was Meridian 59 and was already graphic.
What you talk about is MUDs.
The difference is, that in the old games you had to cooperate to succeed. UO was an incredibly harsh world, where you would be much safer with friends around. Similarly EQ (as far as I understand it, I never played), it was necessary to cooperate to get anywhere. I remember Lineage2, where there was no way to level beyond a certain point (around level 15 I think) solo.
A game like UO promoted interactions. You had to talk to other people to buy their crafted items. You had to band together for security. The game promoted community, through the very gameplay, where also a thing like housing played a significant role.
Because everyone was exposed to players being evil, they were also exposed to players being good. What a feeling it was getting cornered by PKs in a dungeon, and suddenly you would see an Order guild come running in and saving you. Or you would wander around as a newbie ghost, unable to find one of those pesky healers, and a player would ressurrect you, gate you to a civilized area or as a minimum taking the time getting the Spirit Speak skill to work so they could talk to you and guide you in the right direction.
Without evil, there can be no good. And the evil of the UO world really made people band together in tight-knit guilds, with a feeling of "us vs. the world", no matter what kind of guild it was. Nothing like that exists today in any bigger games, where you are completely shielded from all actions of other players.
It also didn't work to UO's disadvantage, that you could drop everything on the ground, thus building sites of interest of your own, which combined with the polymorph spell really promoted roleplaying. A system which equal I have not seen to this day.
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It is not necessarily the new generation as such, that is to blame, but more the types of players, that these now mainstream games cater to and are full of. I believe these types of people have always existed, also 15-20 years ago at the dawn of MMOs, but they did not play MMOs. They did sports and watched TV or whatever was mainstream back then, maybe the occasional console game, if computer games was ever even touched.
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The problem is twofold:
One
The MMOs cater to the mainstream crowd, which is characterized by the traits you outlined, through the gameplay, which promotes soloplay and with it impatience with others, egoism and the like. The gameplay is also extremely dumbed down, choking every possibility of the players being creative and creating their own fun. How do you convince people to do something when valuable XP-time is being lost?
Two
Because of the influx of the mainstream player, the games changed themselves in a hunt for profit, propagating the problem in a vicious cycle: The more MMOs catered to the mainstream player, the more mainstream players would play MMOs, crowding out the original MMO player type, which would have less and less influence and would finally leave the games, when they had nothing left for them to enjoy.
And since we all know that money is the most important thing in the world, there was really no other way things could have gone.