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The quality of communities has dropped since WoW (a tirade)

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  • NadiaNadia Member UncommonPosts: 11,798
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Kuviski

    I deeply believe it has to do with game design, for human behavior doesn't change in such drastic ways in one generation.

    Actually, more modern games have better mechanisms to keep annoying people at bay than old games like EQ, AC1 or UO. Nothing like fighting your way down a dungeon in EQ just to find the boss camped by 3 other guilds waiting for it to spawn already. Or be the first at the boss only to see a late coming guild arriving just before the spawn and steal the kill from you. Oh yeah, those were such AMAZING social mechanisms in older games, which made communities so much better.

    Let's get real, it's harder today for the annoying part of the community to grief the others than it was 10-15 years ago. If anything, game mechanics have improved on that part.

    I remember

    but I'd take those issues over 20 minute "instance" dungeons with groups that never talk to each other beyond GO GO GO

  • petrus4petrus4 Member Posts: 14
    As I just said in another thread, the degree to which people are decent to each other in a game, depends on whether or not people are there to actually enjoy themselves, or are there in order to try and find justification for egotism or a sense of elitism.

    People who are in a game to enjoy the actual content, are generally going to want to move more slowly, (because after all, that is the point) and are more likely to be happy, emotionally well-adjusted human beings, and so in turn are more likely to treat each other with empathy and compassion as a result.

    The epeen crowd, on the other hand, see everyone else as a potential source of competition, for the narcissistic supply which they themselves want.  They don't feel that they have any incentive to be kind to anyone else there.  In their eyes, you're either one of the people who worship them because of what they have achieved, or you're a potential competitor for said worship.

    The other thing to understand about negative behaviour within online games of various kinds, (and the Internet as a whole, such as YouTube comments) is the fact that in offline terms, America as a country is currently approaching the terminal phase of its' ongoing re-enactment of Nazi Germany.  As a result of that, many of the people who are living in the country, often have to work three jobs in order to survive, and otherwise tend to exist in a constant state of near-suicidal misery. 

    So there is a huge tendency on their part, to take out said misery on any available targets that they can find online; especially when you consider the fact that the Internet is about the last place left where they can do that, without there being negative consequences for their behaviour.
  • ElikalElikal Member UncommonPosts: 7,912

    I agree with the OP, but I think that is the general change of time: lack of patience, lack of empathy, antisocial and self-centered behavior is on the rise everywhere. It just is in MMOs too.

    In past ages people were still taught self-restraint and manners. It's just no longer taught.

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Member CommonPosts: 3,675

    I really get tired of explaining this, but this is exactly why communities don't exist in MMOs and will never exist again and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

    Back in the UO/EQ days, online games were directed at the geek crowd because they were typically the only ones with the home computers powerful enough and the online connections fast enough to play these games.  Therefore, everyone in the games had something in common outside of the game.  You could get into a group and be assured that you had something to talk about because *EVERYONE* had similar interests.  I was never in a group where every single person couldn't quote Monty Python or talk about Star Wars.  It just didn't happen.

    However, once MMOs went mainstream, once the Internet went mainstream, all that went away.  Instead of a single cohesive community, you had dozens or hundreds of different sub-cultures playing these games, most of which had nothing in common except for the game.  Nobody had any reason to talk to each other  because nobody had anything to talk about.  That's where the community went.  It wasn't WoW, although WoW happened to be around at that time, that's much of what gave WoW it's popularity was the mainstream access to high speed Internet.

    The fact is, it's never going to change.  This is the new reality.  There's nothing you can do to put the genie back in the bottle.  I don't  care if you like it or not, this is how it is.  Stop whining about it.  Deal with it.  That's how mature people operate.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • NadiaNadia Member UncommonPosts: 11,798
    Originally posted by Cephus404

    Back in the UO/EQ days, online games were directed at the geek crowd because they were typically the only ones with the home computers powerful enough and the online connections fast enough to play these games.

    i played and raided in EQ for 4 years on a 56k dialup until 2004

    earthlink / aol / mindspring were all nationwide providers for dial up

     

    EQ didnt require much to run -- I remember using Win95 on a Pentium 3

     

    former players discussing PC specs they had back in 1999

    http://www.eqclassic.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3188

     

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    I think you're right. Rare loot drops and gearscore are two things that come to mind that seem to have done just as much harm as good, if not more.

    Thing is, those rare loot drops already existed in EQ and also AC1 and even good old UO, and people were already camping them, jumping lines to steal the mobs, etc..., something which is actually harder nowadays with instances used for major bosses.

    And about gearscore... I remember elitism of similar kind in EQ and AC1. Example from AC1: those decal plugins giving you your "xp/hour", and people looking down or even insulting you, or refusing your character in the group if it wasn't of the appropriate specialization. What I use to call "performance elitism" changed name (and became "gearscore" in WoW, among other things), but it existed way before WoW. The intolerance towards what is perceived as "lesser players" always existed, and always had the same solution: join a guild with likeminded people, and try to ignore the idiots.

    Mind you, there was a time when I would have agreed with the OP. But growing older, maybe wiser, and having increased experience with all kinds of online communities made me realize I was wrong. Put people in an anonymous environment where there are no consequences for being an asshat, and a subset of them will always behave the same way, be it 15 years ago or today.

    I agree that those things were present, but how they are used and their importance has changed. Raid gear being the most significant example. The rare drops in most of the older MMOs were desirable but not necessary. High end crafting mats in many MMOs now are included as rare raid drops. To move on to the next tier of dungeons you often need to get the gear from the previous dungeons to survive. Further exacerbating that is gearscore, which is an even greater cause of devisiveness.

    In the PVP systems used in WOW and many other MMOs you are now playing for top score and rank, which shifts the primary goal from competing against the other team to simply using the other team as a means to compete against your own team mates, as you are graded not on how many enemies you beat but on how many of your own team you have beat. 

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • maplestonemaplestone Member UncommonPosts: 3,099
    I would argue that no game or generation is responsible for this - it happens even where you have exact same people playing the exact same game.  Over time, people (individually and collectively) become more focused on efficiency than discovery.  Some games may accelerate the process more than others.  Some communities may form subcultures who resist the trend a little more than others.  But all in all, impatience is just a natural result of any environment where a player's sense of progress comes from repeatedly completing activities.
  • aesperusaesperus Member UncommonPosts: 5,135
    Originally posted by Piechunks

    I wasn't born yesterday. I realize the first MMOs were text-based and played them. I played EQ as well (didn't like it, but I wouldn't disparage another for liking it), but preferred other MMOs that came out shortly afterward.

    The one trend that has disturbed me the most is that people have become a lot dumber, impatient and hostile if you were to compare a randomly selected sample to that of the "vanilla" days of WoW.

    It pains me somewhat to relay anecdotal evidence as if it were gospel, but my foray into GW2 has shown me just how prevalent the problem is among modern MMO gamers:

    1. There is no more patience to ensure "quality" runs to the point of ruin. 
     
    2. There is no more willingness to accept personal blame, but blame is to be doled out to others.
     
    3. There is no desire, or ability to figure things out independently: guides must be sought after, followed to the letter and obeyed at all times.
     
    4. A lack of empathy and "antisocial" behavior
     
     
    I realize that this post serves as nothing more than a means of venting my frustrations, but I have to ask whoever managed to get through of all of that one question:
     
    if people behave so awfully in-game and the point of playing a MMO is to interact with these people, then why even bother?

    I've gotta agree, for the most part, on all 4 points. It's not just gamers, but it's particularly bad when it does come to our demographic. A large part of this is just how American / western culture is becoming. A lot of people have completely forgotten the importance of things like community, and started focusing too much on the 'me' factor, and instant gratification. Some people have already realized this leads to a very hallow existence. Others are still learning that lesson. And it's being reflected in our games.

    1) This is a direct bi-product of min-maxing. While logically it does seem to make sense to 'get the most out of the least amount of time', the problem is most players do this in a vacuum. They ignore all other aspects of gameplay (like players needing to take breaks, or having to avoid getting hit) in their calculations, and thus assume they aren't important. This is a huge problem I have with a lot of games. While it makes sense (to a certain degree) to min-max your playtime, you also need to do it in context. Make time for the unexpected, for irl stuff.

    2) This is a combination of things. Our instant-gratification culture, reinforced by past circumstances where we could justifiably blame the devs. While it's true that not all studios are blameless, we've grown to use this as our 'go-to' excuse for everything we don't like. "It's the devs fault!". This has also permeated inside the game. Where everything from playing poorly, to not finding friends is being blamed on others.

    3) Thanks to the internet (as much as I love the thing), we now have access to this stuff. It's far too easy to 'cheat', and thus most people do it. Most people just don't have the patience or the desire for a real challenge anymore. Heck, a lot of people are even letting others play their games for them (let's plays). Guides do have a place, and I do enjoy things like Dulfy, but it's sad to see how over-used they've become.

    4) This one, above all the others, I've found (thankfully) does have a lot of exceptions. You're not wrong, there are a LOT of anti-social people playing these games. However, myself (and a few others on this site) have still been able to find pleasant social experiences on a daily basis. We're still meeting new people, making new friends, helping / getting helped by strangers. What some people need to figure out is the golden rule applies to social gaming as well. Treat others as you want to be treated. If you want to make new friends, you need to start by being friendly to others. Regardless of what you might get out of it.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Piechunks

     
    if people behave so awfully in-game and the point of playing a MMO is to interact with these people, then why even bother?
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     

     

     

    Because i don't play MMOs to group with others. I play them for fun and content. The "point" of playing a MMO is not the same for everyone.

    Here is an old post about OTHER reasons to play MMOs.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/390333/Reasons-OTHER-than-social-for-playing-MMORPGs.html

  • Grimlock426Grimlock426 Member Posts: 159

    I also mostly agree with the OP, and I'm going to throw something else out that I feel has seriously led to the decline in the online community...damage meters.

    Prior to damage meters the best way to judge success or failure in a dungeon was whether you completed it or not.  Now, you have people abusing others based on their "DPS".

    Yeah, yeah, there will always be those who say "but DPS meters are intregal for our guild to judge how well our DPS players are doing, and we need to analyze the information."  While this may be true for the most advanced, cutting edge guilds, it's baloney for your average guild.

    Most of the time people just use damage meters to inflate their own E-peens and denegrate others.  Additionally, most of the time people don't truly analyze them, i.e. take all pertinent information into account.  Is the design of the encounter such that certain classes are already at a disadvantage?  Does the DPS who is doing the lowest have other responsibilities in that fight that could lead to lower DPS?  Is the gear level relatively equal between the top and bottom DPSer?  Are the classes balanced or do you know that certain classes are currently OP and others struggling? 

    If people truly weighed all these factors first and then made a comment about DPS then it wouldn't bother me much, but that's rarely the case.  It's to the point now where it's common in games like WoW for people to be kicked from LFR and LFD groups for 'low' DPS, as if those are hard encounters.  I saw it all the time where people would spam DPS meters in leveling instances and mock people with low numbers as if your DPS in the Sunken Temple was relavent.

    I think damage meters have been a very toxic element to communities.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
     

    Problem easily solved by running dungeons with friends and guild mates.

    Those immature "gogogo" people are the same kind who would jump a line and steal a boss in those old games.

    And MMOs have mature. These people cannot steal boss (instances) anymore, and they cannot even ninjaloot (roll your own loot) in some games.

  • SiveriaSiveria Member UncommonPosts: 1,421

    The communitys and also game quality as a whole has dropped due to wow imo. Its made devs lazy, take ff14 for example, their meeting probally went like this: "Hmm, well we wanna remake the game so what should we do? Hmm lets just copy wow and give it a final fantasy skin, it'll be easy that way." and this is pretty much what they have done. I am sure it'll do fine though. Well have to see, box sales don't mean much in the long run in a mmorpg, we need to see how their retention is. IMO retention is bad in todays mmorpgs because they are all far to simmlar to each other, and alot of players get bored fast because it just feels like the same game in a new skin.

    A good example is Rift, while it is a wow clone they have done just enough unique/semi-unique things in the game to make it feel diffrent than a run of the mil mmorpg.

    Anyway I kinda went off topic there, Bascally my reasoning for the community decline in mmorpgs since wow is due to how soloable they are. Alot of mmorpg players won't group unless they have to. This is a mentality that first really came into existance with wow, because really it was one of the first easly soloable successful mmorpgs. Alot of players are pretty selfish because they are used to not needing other people to really get things done. Not counting endgame though, endgame is not soloable, but the fact getting there is, kinda affects players.

    Right now I am personally waiting for wildstar, its the only mmorpg on the horizon that actually looks like it might be decent/fun. The path system especally has my attention.

    Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

    A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

    or

    B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

    Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  • Mari2kMari2k Member UncommonPosts: 367
    Originally posted by GregorMcgregor

     

    I look back at playing DAoC with many fond hours of laughter, fun, and happiness where players were friendly, helpful, would stand around buffing lowbies and handing them out cash to help them on their way, all the while chatting away or craicing jokes as we stood around the forge... It was heaven! :)

     

    No my friend, this is an illusion. Its because good memorys last long and bad are fast forgotten. In Daoc were the same anti-social players as in todays mmos. 

    Dont you remember kill stealing ? Ganking low levels ? Being kickt from the group couse you are no op bomber class ?

    The only differece to today is, that in fact the people to not communicate. Couse they dont need to, they can level all the way alone. 

  • SiveriaSiveria Member UncommonPosts: 1,421
    Originally posted by Mari2k
    Originally posted by GregorMcgregor

     

    I look back at playing DAoC with many fond hours of laughter, fun, and happiness where players were friendly, helpful, would stand around buffing lowbies and handing them out cash to help them on their way, all the while chatting away or craicing jokes as we stood around the forge... It was heaven! :)

     

    No my friend, this is an illusion. Its because good memorys last long and bad are fast forgotten. In Daoc were the same anti-social players as in todays mmos. 

    Dont you remember kill stealing ? Ganking low levels ? Being kickt from the group couse you are no op bomber class ?

    The only differece to today is, that in fact the people to not communicate. Couse they dont need to, they can level all the way alone. 

    That is in essense the problem, like I said in my post mmorpgs today are far FAR to soloable, also yeah daoc is prob full of alot of undesirables today because they are probally explayers from mmorpgs where you can solo the entire way quickly.

    Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

    A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

    or

    B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

    Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Siveria
     

    That is in essense the problem, like I said in my post mmorpgs today are far FAR to soloable, also yeah daoc is prob full of alot of undesirables today because they are probally explayers from mmorpgs where you can solo the entire way quickly.

    It is not a problem. Just a preference. If players want to solo in their games, i don't see why not.

     

  • Sajman01Sajman01 Member Posts: 204

    There's no way to punish jerks in games anymore.

     

    In EQ you could outcast them from your guilds and groups, train them, steal their camp locations, since everything is now soloable and game companies refuse to punish anyone there's no accountability. Even when the commit the most foulest of acts and get their account closed, they just go make a new at no cost since everything is f2p now.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by maplestone
    I would argue that no game or generation is responsible for this - it happens even where you have exact same people playing the exact same game.  Over time, people (individually and collectively) become more focused on efficiency than discovery.  Some games may accelerate the process more than others.  Some communities may form subcultures who resist the trend a little more than others.  But all in all, impatience is just a natural result of any environment where a player's sense of progress comes from repeatedly completing activities.

    Conversations like this have been going on since the late 1800's when people complained about the brevity of letter writing caused by the cheapness of sending letters through the postal service. The ease of use caused a break down in the old systems of communications, which would certainly lead to a break down in society. Never mind that people were communicating a lot more, just not in the same ways.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • AyulinAyulin Member Posts: 334
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
     

    Actually, more modern games have better mechanisms to keep annoying people at bay than old games like EQ, AC1 or UO. Nothing like fighting your way down a dungeon in EQ just to find the boss camped by 3 other guilds waiting for it to spawn already. Or be the first at the boss only to see a late coming guild arriving just before the spawn and steal the kill from you. Oh yeah, those were such AMAZING social mechanisms in older games, which made communities so much better.

    Impressive. You describe two sides of the same coin, and then paint yourself as the victim in both.

    On one hand, you're complaining about others already camping a boss that you've just fought your way down to. Then in the very next sentence, you lament the idea of already being at a spawn, only to have another group come and "steal" it from you.

    That's either one of the most inadvertent contradictions I've seen, or one of the most blatant and unabashed double-standards I've seen.

    In one case, it's "I got down to the final boss of a dungeon only to have other people already there!"

    In the other, it's "I was at a spawn location, waiting and some other group comes along and snatches it from me!".

    Even funnier is that no wrong is actually done by anyone in either scenario.

    So... What crime, exactly, is committed by having others already at a spawn location when you get there? Are they doing something wrong by also wanting a shot at the same creature as you? Do you believe those other groups had no right being there?

    You also realize that you, in your first example, are essentially the equivalent of the "late-coming group" you describe in your second example? Only in your case, because you're already there waiting (like the others in your first example), now suddenly, those late-comers are "stealing" your spawn.

    An obvious question about that second example: How can someone steal something that isn't anyone's until it's claimed?  I see this argument made a lot, and it never makes sense. If a creature's spawn window is 3:00, and not a second before, then it doesn't really matter if someone got there 5 minutes before, or 2 hours before. All bets are off once that creature spawns. Everyone there for the encounter faces the same challenge as everyone else. They have to outclaim you, just as you have to outclaim them. It comes down to who's quick enough to get the claim. You don't "own" the spawn simply because you were there longer, hence, no one is "stealing" anything from you.

    There's a word for the overall mentality you're conveying through your arguments/complaints. It's "self-entitlement".

    Let's get real, it's harder today for the annoying part of the community to grief the others than it was 10-15 years ago. If anything, game mechanics have improved on that part.

    Actually, it's not only far easier to grief people nowadays... It's far easier to do so and get away with it, largely due to how developers have taken focus off "we" and placed it almost entirely on "me".

    10-15 years ago, there was a lot more personal accountability in MMOs. Players' reputations mattered more, and even the relative anonymity of being an online avatar with a fake name was not enough to save someone's actions from catching up with them. If you were an ass, you would find yourself disliked by more and more people, to the extent that it could be very difficult for you to get anything done once your reputation spread enough. You could really screw yourself over back then.

    Now? Pfft.. Grief away. Gank away. Ninja-loot away. Harass away. People get upset? So what? You'll likely never see or have to interact with them again. There is absolutely no external reason for someone to not be a jackass in most MMOs of the last 8-10 years.

    The MMO community has decayed and degenerated over the years. I wouldn't even call it a community anymore. It's more like some Wild West like collection of random individuals, occasionally clustering together into fleeting groups when there's something in it for them, and each individual only out for themselves.

     

     

  • IfrianMMOIfrianMMO Member UncommonPosts: 252

    I used to play a game called Phantasy Star Online, where many players had so many cheats at their disposal that they could go as far as to erase your characters,  ban your accounts or even downright try to break your console by using certain corruption codes and hard crashing.

    They controlled the whole game and everyone else pretty much curled together in abandoned lobbies and hoped no hacker would come to bother them, or played by the side of "nice" hackers that would protect them and prevent the other hackers to inject their crap unto others.

    Well,  those evil cheaters were much less aggressive and offensive, and were generally less of a douche despite having the tools to literally destroy your existence in that game.

    Enough said.

    image
  • ArclanArclan Member UncommonPosts: 1,550

    Communities suck because games are soloable. Gamers don't need to form relationships to enjoy the content. Humans are like rivers, we take the path of least resistance even if that sometimes means we get a less enriching experience.


    F2P is also a major cuprit in the decline of community.



    Originally posted by Ayulin
    I wouldn't even call it a community anymore. It's more like some Wild West like collection of random individuals, occasionally clustering together into fleeting groups when there's something in it for them, and each individual only out for themselves.


    Sad but true.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Sajman01

    There's no way to punish jerks in games anymore.

     

    You don't need to. There is little they can do to you in modern games.

    They cannot gank you ... pvp is consensual.

    They cannot train you ... training is eliminated.

    They cannot ninja-loot ... some games are rolling your own loot.

    And if you meet someone you don't like in a group, just hit "quit".

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Arclan

    Communities suck because games are soloable. Gamers don't need to form relationships to enjoy the content.

    Communities may such but the games are better. And i don't want to form relationship to enjoy my entertainment products. I have enough relationships in my life.

    I don't play games for the community. I already have one.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    And you say today, there are no consequences... do you think the asshat guild in EQ who just zerged through the dungeon and totally ignored existing queues on bosses cared about that you thought? Reality check... they were a fully self sufficient asshat guild, they didn't need your approval on anything they were doing. Actually, those people enjoyed, they bathed in their bad reputation, what's more cool than to be a "virtual gangsta" with zero risk of any kind of retaliation?

    The wild west of MMOs what back then 15 years ago, when you had little to no anti-griefing mechanisms. That's what the wild west is all about, and unlike movies, in the real wild west, the strongest win (aka "anarchy").

    Yeh.

    And that is why modern games are better. The ability of "bad" interactions are taken away from players.

    When you are in a LFD instance, you can easily hit "quit" when you don't like the group. You don't have to suffer anyone for any reason.

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    Its not the same. Even a lot of the trolls, pks and douches would talk and communicate. I was a pk in UO and at least I knew people and hated people. Rivalries and hatred and having my corpse chopped up or even being ghost spammed was more social and interactive then what we have now.

    I literally went 26 levels in Neverwinter before speaking or being spoken to. Literally no need interactions. Shame with the world bustling.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    Its not the same. Even a lot of the trolls, pks and douches would talk and communicate. I was a pk in UO and at least I knew people and hated people. Rivalries and hatred and having my corpse chopped up or even being ghost spammed was more social and interactive then what we have now.

    I literally went 26 levels in Neverwinter before speaking or being spoken to. Literally no need interactions. Shame with the world bustling.
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