I would rather there be an alignment system with a variance between good and evil. In which players would be able to be killed a suffer a penalty depending on what stance the town is, and what stance the player currently is. I would really enjoy this as opposed to a player imprisonment feature.
I've always been a fan of the law system but not imprisoment just something negative which happens to people who do meaningless random pvp as opposed to organised fights. Some kind of negative debuff or xp penalty which would be enough to discourage ganking and random pvp'ing but still allow you to pvp like say for a dungeon area or just annoying people who say plvl or those who don't abide by loot rules... lol.
In a sandbox game where players police themselves could you accept the risk of imprisonment for breaking laws by stealing, killing or harming another player inside their territory if defeated?
I ask this because I know one of the biggest things about FFA PvP is that even when players band together to stop gankers they just return. Eventually this leads to apathy of stopping the random killer.
With rule of law given to the community the ability to lock up player killers up I think you might have a lot less random killings. This of course does not stop wars and the like but focus on the random killers.
I think what really needs to happen; is there needs to be extremely limited safe zones in the world, maybe main cities, and one or two central hubs in the zone itself.
Players bickering about "anti-grief" really bother me. I grew up playing MMOs, and really enjoying them. There was no "anti-grief" system back then, it was kill, be killed, or relocate areas. I am all for the mass slaughter of pvp on pvp realms, and really dislike too many restrictions, as it takes the immersiveness out of the game.
For the most part, people roll on a PVP server to, well, you know, pvp. These days though, people cry about getting ganked once, call it griefing, and I just can't figure out why those people ever roll on the PVP servers ;-;
The highlighted bit can't be right. Being imprisoned for murdering people is REALISTIC which means it can't be not immersive. Or do you think that immersiveness means that mass murderers can walk in cities without the guards doing anything to them? So everyone's cool with the fact that person X murdered 10 people in cold blood/? THat's is not immersiveness. It's not realistic at all.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
In a sandbox game where players police themselves could you accept the risk of imprisonment for breaking laws by stealing, killing or harming another player inside their territory if defeated?
I ask this because I know one of the biggest things about FFA PvP is that even when players band together to stop gankers they just return. Eventually this leads to apathy of stopping the random killer.
With rule of law given to the community the ability to lock up player killers up I think you might have a lot less random killings. This of course does not stop wars and the like but focus on the random killers.
I think what really needs to happen; is there needs to be extremely limited safe zones in the world, maybe main cities, and one or two central hubs in the zone itself.
Players bickering about "anti-grief" really bother me. I grew up playing MMOs, and really enjoying them. There was no "anti-grief" system back then, it was kill, be killed, or relocate areas. I am all for the mass slaughter of pvp on pvp realms, and really dislike too many restrictions, as it takes the immersiveness out of the game.
For the most part, people roll on a PVP server to, well, you know, pvp. These days though, people cry about getting ganked once, call it griefing, and I just can't figure out why those people ever roll on the PVP servers ;-;
The highlighted bit can't be right. Being imprisoned for murdering people is REALISTIC which means it can't be not immersive. Or do you think that immersiveness means that mass murderers can walk in cities without the guards doing anything to them? So everyone's cool with the fact that person X murdered 10 people in cold blood/? THat's is not immersiveness. It's not realistic at all.
I am beginning t think it is intentional. We are turning in circles with this argument.
But the fact remains...a game like Darkfall which was a slaughter fest without any sort of Criminal System in place...simply does not work.
Unless it is like Planetside 2 type game, meaning that the Core of it is simply fighting.
If you want to have a full Sandbox MMORPG, with Crafting and Adventure and Housing and Guild vs Guild Wars and Sieges and Role Play...then the abusive behavior of Ambush Random Killing needs to be detered to some degree, by some mechanics which can be part of gameplay itself but also tools to be used by players to facilitate reaching the goal of a Balanced experience for ALL.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
That reads a lot like the best parts of the Wizardry Online and Dransik prison mechanics mashed together. I like the idea, but that's because it seems like it adds to gameplay. While probably a good system for a game, it is the opposite of the OP's interests, which is something to curb open world PVP.
1. The OP is not about my idea but about the idea of prisons in FFA PvP MMORPG.
2. Don't speak for me. What I'm saying is not what your explaining. I've stated otherwise multiple times already.
Narius: "That does not sound fun."
VR: "Kind of the point of it though. Its an anti grief tool in a game where you could be killed.Its an anti grief tool in a game where you could be killed."
VR: "Killer a miner who has no chance to defend themselves is taking away their time. So I see no reason if you're defeated they can't take away some of yours."
VR: "Imprisonment is not something that's there to keep players from playing how the game is designed because random killing is unwanted variable."
VR: " The killers are back in 5 minutes killing again and eventually people stop caring about mounting an effort to defeat the killers because there is nothing that punishes or deters the killers who often have crap on even if you could loot them. They lose time due to death and time to trying to mount an effort to stop players that are back in minutes."
VR: "Its behavior control. A mechanism of gameplay used as grief reduction or anti-grief tool. Its there to make random killing less desirable."
VR: " It's a deterrent and punishment but it's done by game play."
Then you probably should do a better job of explaining yourself.
Again, if you don't want the players to do something, don't let them do it in the first place, especially if it's something they find fun. Creating an in-game punishment for playing the game as intended is absurd. If jail is intended as part of the PK gameplay (ex: Dransik, Wizardry Online) that's a completely different scenario than trying to use jail to punish players for doing what you let them do.
This applies to any aspect of gameplay. If your players are perching and you don't want them to, remove the perches(AC - Othoi Nest). If they're hiding under the bridge so the dragon can't reach them and you don't want them to do that, seal that area off (EQ - Vox/Warder). If your players are breeding massive self-multiplying slime armies and holding your cities ransom, fix the slimes (UO - Chrae of Atlantic).
What you don't do is create something that is really fun to do and then punish players for doing it too much.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by emperorwings I've always been a fan of the law system but not imprisoment just something negative which happens to people who do meaningless random pvp as opposed to organised fights. Some kind of negative debuff or xp penalty which would be enough to discourage ganking and random pvp'ing but still allow you to pvp like say for a dungeon area or just annoying people who say plvl or those who don't abide by loot rules... lol.
Some MMOs base the repercussions on the individual scenario. For example, in Lineage 2 and UO (UO might have changed since) your status as an outcast changes based on whether the person fought back or not. If the person didn't fight back, you take a harsher hit to your notoriety/status. This reduces random PKing because the attacker now has to weigh the risk vs the reward for each target. Suddenly, a miner seems a much less desirable mark than the dungeon diver who is fatted on treasure and supplies.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
What you don't do is create something that is really fun to do and then punish players for doing it too much.
Dear lock out timer,
Why are you punishing me?
You make a good point.
But you know as well as I the players can't police themselves because one side must maintain their hardcore mind. So they wont let them become content as in eve. It's dumb. Pvp is dumb as well because of this.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
If you want to have a full Sandbox MMORPG, with Crafting and Adventure and Housing and Guild vs Guild Wars and Sieges and Role Play...then the abusive behavior of Ambush Random Killing needs to be detered to some degree, by some mechanics which can be part of gameplay itself but also tools to be used by players to facilitate reaching the goal of a Balanced experience for ALL.
I just noticed OSS in your sig and that you're a long time UO player.
OSI and EA have made several different attempts over the years to shift where PVP took place and how much PVP was occurring - everything from temporarily slowing them down to the near decimation of the PK's entire stat/skill set.
From your experiences in UO, which systems do you feel were the most successful?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That reads a lot like the best parts of the Wizardry Online and Dransik prison mechanics mashed together. I like the idea, but that's because it seems like it adds to gameplay. While probably a good system for a game, it is the opposite of the OP's interests, which is something to curb open world PVP.
1. The OP is not about my idea but about the idea of prisons in FFA PvP MMORPG.
2. Don't speak for me. What I'm saying is not what your explaining. I've stated otherwise multiple times already.
Narius: "That does not sound fun."
VR: "Kind of the point of it though. Its an anti grief tool in a game where you could be killed.Its an anti grief tool in a game where you could be killed."
VR: "Killer a miner who has no chance to defend themselves is taking away their time. So I see no reason if you're defeated they can't take away some of yours."
VR: "Imprisonment is not something that's there to keep players from playing how the game is designed because random killing is unwanted variable."
VR: " The killers are back in 5 minutes killing again and eventually people stop caring about mounting an effort to defeat the killers because there is nothing that punishes or deters the killers who often have crap on even if you could loot them. They lose time due to death and time to trying to mount an effort to stop players that are back in minutes."
VR: "Its behavior control. A mechanism of gameplay used as grief reduction or anti-grief tool. Its there to make random killing less desirable."
VR: " It's a deterrent and punishment but it's done by game play."
Then you probably should do a better job of explaining yourself.
Again, if you don't want the players to do something, don't let them do it in the first place, especially if it's something they find fun. Creating an in-game punishment for playing the game as intended is absurd. If jail is intended as part of the PK gameplay (ex: Dransik, Wizardry Online) that's a completely different scenario than trying to use jail to punish players for doing what you let them do.
This applies to any aspect of gameplay. If your players are perching and you don't want them to, remove the perches(AC - Othoi Nest). If they're hiding under the bridge so the dragon can't reach them and you don't want them to do that, seal that area off (EQ - Vox/Warder). If your players are breeding massive self-multiplying slime armies and holding your cities ransom, fix the slimes (UO - Chrae of Atlantic).
What you don't do is create something that is really fun to do and then punish players for doing it too much.
"Its behavior control. A mechanism of gameplay used as grief reduction or anti-grief tool. Its there to make random killing less desirable." Seems pretty straight forward. ALL features allowed, disallowed, deterred are part of behavior control. Why would I want to make something less desireable if I didn't want it to happen? Obviously I want it to be less desirable because random killing is part of the game but my choice is not to have it the dominate part of the game. It would have a risk.
If I am imprisoning players in game how is not part of game play? I explained before that you must be defeated by guards or offended players(allied players too) and you would be locked up. I don't see how that's not part of game play?
Developers punish players for standing inside the red circles of a huge wind up attack by boss mobs. If they didn't want players to be in the red circles why have them is kind of what your saying.
Originally posted by emperorwings I've always been a fan of the law system but not imprisoment just something negative which happens to people who do meaningless random pvp as opposed to organised fights. Some kind of negative debuff or xp penalty which would be enough to discourage ganking and random pvp'ing but still allow you to pvp like say for a dungeon area or just annoying people who say plvl or those who don't abide by loot rules... lol.
Some MMOs base the repercussions on the individual scenario. For example, in Lineage 2 and UO (UO might have changed since) your status as an outcast changes based on whether the person fought back or not. If the person didn't fight back, you take a harsher hit to your notoriety/status. This reduces random PKing because the attacker now has to weigh the risk vs the reward for each target. Suddenly, a miner seems a much less desirable mark than the dungeon diver who is fatted on treasure and supplies.
In today's player landscape, such a system would not work very well. People work off bad Karma and continue the killing.
If no imprisonment system, I would be more for a system where the attacker takes a notoriety hit regardless of whether the target fought back or not. It is still an unprovoked murder with the intent to steal the victim's bellongings.
But I think an imprisonment system which ties in to the gameplay, such as ArchAge is actually more fun. because it involves all parties, someone has to follow the clues to declare your crime etc. It is much more imersive, much more realistic. Gives you the opportunity to avoid being imprisoned too if no one ever finds clues and declares your crime.
So if you are a smart murderer maybe you will never get caught, yet by the same token in order to be a smart murderer you would not be seeking to kill constantly repeatedly and totally randomly.
I feel you are not entirely thinking things through here, you seem to just want a repeat of past systems but times and behaviours have changed in the mean time.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
What you don't do is create something that is really fun to do and then punish players for doing it too much.
Dear lock out timer,
Why are you punishing me?
You make a good point.
But you know as well as I the players can't police themselves because one side must maintain their hardcore mind. So they wont let them become content as in eve. It's dumb. Pvp is dumb as well because of this.
Lock out timers are a great example. Players running SM "too much" in WOW? Player repeating "Just One More Time" (yes, that was the quest's name ) "too much" in PotBS? Lock out timers were put in place, BUT the devs replaced the content with other content they had more control over. Instead of nerfing those quests or making them undesirable, the devs used dailies - one of the many MUD/MMO band-aids that have become common practice over time.
In the FFA PVP scenario, as you point out, the players are the content, and devs have nowhere near the control over that as they do content that they themselves create. That's where it starts to get tricky in the curbing of PVP. I'm partial to the EVE and UO systems of security levels for a PVP focused MMO, especially ones where you have meaningful roles outside of just combat.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by emperorwings I've always been a fan of the law system but not imprisoment just something negative which happens to people who do meaningless random pvp as opposed to organised fights. Some kind of negative debuff or xp penalty which would be enough to discourage ganking and random pvp'ing but still allow you to pvp like say for a dungeon area or just annoying people who say plvl or those who don't abide by loot rules... lol.
Some MMOs base the repercussions on the individual scenario. For example, in Lineage 2 and UO (UO might have changed since) your status as an outcast changes based on whether the person fought back or not. If the person didn't fight back, you take a harsher hit to your notoriety/status. This reduces random PKing because the attacker now has to weigh the risk vs the reward for each target. Suddenly, a miner seems a much less desirable mark than the dungeon diver who is fatted on treasure and supplies.
In today's player landscape, such a system would not work very well. People work off bad Karma and continue the killing.
If no imprisonment system, I would be more for a system where the attacker takes a notoriety hit regardless of whether the target fought back or not. It is still an unprovoked murder with the intent to steal the victim's bellongings.
But I think an imprisonment system which ties in to the gameplay, such as ArchAge is actually more fun. because it involves all parties, someone has to follow the clues to declare your crime etc. It is much more imersive, much more realistic. Gives you the opportunity to avoid being imprisoned too if no one ever finds clues and declares your crime.
So if you are a smart murderer maybe you will never get caught, yet by the same token in order to be a smart murderer you would not be seeking to kill constantly repeatedly and totally randomly.
I feel you are not entirely thinking things through here, you seem to just want a repeat of past systems but times and behaviours have changed in the mean time.
Actually, I said in a previous post that I liked Archeage's system.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I've played a game where GMs could put you in solitary confinement - literally a doorless, windowless room with stone walls, and somewhere in a black void where there was nothing around you, and you couldn't speak in any chat channel. I was once put there - I don't remember why - I think there was a bug that could make you end up there sometimes. The novelty of that wore off *real* quick.
If I would ever play such a game again, it'd be because 1) players have so much control over the game that something like a prison only existed because the community used the tools it was given to make it, 2) there was still a way to escape the prison, either on your own or with the help of other players, 3) besides confining in a certain area and possibly stripping you of some of your items (which you had some means of getting back), there would be no adverse effects on your character.
Player-ruin prisons without smart limitations are another Stanford prison experiment waiting to happen on a virtual plane...
But honestly, if there were such things to be found in a game, it wouldn't deter poor behavior. Personally, I might become an outlaw just to show how stupid the player-made laws and general system was...
If I am imprisoning players in game how is not part of game play? I explained before that you must be defeated by guards or offended players(allied players too) and you would be locked up. I don't see how that's not part of game play?
The difference is in the purpose the content serves. Content designed to enrich the PVP gameplay is very different from content design to restrict the PVP gameplay. Since your goal is the latter, if the gameplay is desirable, it works against your intended goal.
If you look at Archeage's system, if someone wants to be a hardcore assassin and murder relentlessly, they can as long as they cover their tracks. The jail content is not intended to be an anti-grief tool or to curb PKing. More than likely, if people went on murderous rampages, as long as it was within the game's rules, the devs would do nothing to stop it. It's there to create fun for both sides of the fence, not to curb either, and it does so by adding more gameplay to the other side, not by trying to restrict the attacker's side.
From your posts so far, you are looking to create an anti-grief tool but you want that tool to be engaging gameplay. If that is not correct, please let me know as your posts seem to state that is the case.
If it is correct, What I'd like you to do is to actually walk through what you are suggesting - not the mechanics of it but the behavior of it - and see if that works the way you'd like it to.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I've played a game where GMs could put you in solitary confinement - literally a doorless, windowless room with stone walls, and somewhere in a black void where there was nothing around you, and you couldn't speak in any chat channel. I was once put there - I don't remember why - I think there was a bug that could make you end up there sometimes. The novelty of that wore off *real* quick.
That was probably because you insulted the GM, they used to do that in UO and the "cell" was exactly like that.
That is not the kind of imprisonment we are all discussing here however.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
I've played a game where GMs could put you in solitary confinement - literally a doorless, windowless room with stone walls, and somewhere in a black void where there was nothing around you, and you couldn't speak in any chat channel. I was once put there - I don't remember why - I think there was a bug that could make you end up there sometimes. The novelty of that wore off *real* quick.
That was probably because you insulted the GM, they used to do that in UO and the "cell" was exactly like that.
That is not the kind of imprisonment we are all discussing here however.
Lol, it's a possibility - it's been a very long time.
The reason I brought that up was to show how old it would get if a player had the kind of power to do something similar - hence the need for serious limits.
What you don't do is create something that is really fun to do and then punish players for doing it too much.
Dear lock out timer,
Why are you punishing me?
You make a good point.
But you know as well as I the players can't police themselves because one side must maintain their hardcore mind. So they wont let them become content as in eve. It's dumb. Pvp is dumb as well because of this.
Lock out timers are a great example. Players running SM "too much" in WOW? Player repeating "Just One More Time" (yes, that was the quest's name ) "too much" in PotBS? Lock out timers were put in place, BUT the devs replaced the content with other content they had more control over. Instead of nerfing those quests or making them undesirable, the devs used dailies - one of the many MUD/MMO band-aids that have become common practice over time.
In the FFA PVP scenario, as you point out, the players are the content, and devs have nowhere near the control over that as they do content that they themselves create. That's where it starts to get tricky in the curbing of PVP. I'm partial to the EVE and UO systems of security levels for a PVP focused MMO, especially ones where you have meaningful roles outside of just combat.
You're a pretty smart guy dude.
I'm partial to eve and UO too. but player made content is what is desired and most effective.
I think the how long can I last type game is best PK type gameplay. It replaces the hardcore player with the immersion player. That way they try to become content and allows for more epic hunts and battles.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
If you look at Archeage's system, if someone wants to be a hardcore assassin and murder relentlessly, they can as long as they cover their tracks. The jail content is not intended to be an anti-grief tool or to curb PKing. More than likely, if people went on murderous rampages, as long as it was within the game's rules, the devs would do nothing to stop it. It's there to create fun for both sides of the fence, not to curb either, and it does so by adding more gameplay to the other side, not by trying to restrict the attacker's side.
Actually, I think it is an anti-grief tool. Because it channels the behavior. It is implicit I'll give you that, and not explicit "Oh you killed another player you go to jail"...
But out of 100 people just jumping in killing people, maybe 10 will choose to repeat it....maybe 10 will go down the Pirate path.
Of course, ArchAge's system applies to certain situations. It applies if you kill people of the same Faction as you. Lets not forget the game does have factions which are enemies and open targets at all times.
But this is no different than UO, there were factions there too. Order-Chaos factions could attack one another anytime anywhere.
But by default everyone was part of the undeclared "Civilian faction" if you will. So attacking a blue put the Notoriety System at work.
The system in ArchAge is pretty much the same and serves the same purpose within he context of what constitutes a crime and its goal is to contribute to reduce Same Faction PKilling, So it is in effect as much of an Anti-Grief mechanism as UO's notoriety system or EvE's Security Rating system. But more evolved with content in to it, the next version if you will.
And it could apply to any MMORPG with OW FFA PvP which does not have factions too.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Again, if you don't want the players to do something, don't let them do it in the first place, especially if it's something they find fun. Creating an in-game punishment for playing the game as intended is absurd. If jail is intended as part of the PK gameplay (ex: Dransik, Wizardry Online) that's a completely different scenario than trying to use jail to punish players for doing what you let them do.
Again, if you don't want the players to do something, don't let them do it in the first place, especially if it's something they find fun. Creating an in-game punishment for playing the game as intended is absurd. If jail is intended as part of the PK gameplay (ex: Dransik, Wizardry Online) that's a completely different scenario than trying to use jail to punish players for doing what you let them do.
That is why very few games use such a system.
Again a quote with the same old argument? I think this has been answered to death till now. Are you following the thread and helping it progress or trying to set it back again and again?
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
In today's player landscape, such a system would not work very well. People work off bad Karma and continue the killing.
If no imprisonment system, I would be more for a system where the attacker takes a notoriety hit regardless of whether the target fought back or not. It is still an unprovoked murder with the intent to steal the victim's bellongings.
But I think an imprisonment system which ties in to the gameplay, such as ArchAge is actually more fun. because it involves all parties, someone has to follow the clues to declare your crime etc. It is much more imersive, much more realistic. Gives you the opportunity to avoid being imprisoned too if no one ever finds clues and declares your crime.
So if you are a smart murderer maybe you will never get caught, yet by the same token in order to be a smart murderer you would not be seeking to kill constantly repeatedly and totally randomly.
I feel you are not entirely thinking things through here, you seem to just want a repeat of past systems but times and behaviours have changed in the mean time.
Any adverse effects from notoriety systems can be circumvented by using alts. The security status mechanic in Eve Online, for example, is a joke. Negative 10 sec status is a a badge of honor for some players. It does not discourage PK one bit.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Again, if you don't want the players to do something, don't let them do it in the first place, especially if it's something they find fun. Creating an in-game punishment for playing the game as intended is absurd. If jail is intended as part of the PK gameplay (ex: Dransik, Wizardry Online) that's a completely different scenario than trying to use jail to punish players for doing what you let them do.
That is why very few games use such a system.
Again a quote with the same old argument? I think this has been answered to death till now. Are you following the thread and helping it progress or trying to set it back again and again?
It has been answered poorly.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Again, if you don't want the players to do something, don't let them do it in the first place, especially if it's something they find fun. Creating an in-game punishment for playing the game as intended is absurd. If jail is intended as part of the PK gameplay (ex: Dransik, Wizardry Online) that's a completely different scenario than trying to use jail to punish players for doing what you let them do.
That is why very few games use such a system.
Again a quote with the same old argument? I think this has been answered to death till now. Are you following the thread and helping it progress or trying to set it back again and again?
Facing the truth is progress. You don't seem to understand "progress'" is just a matter of perspective, just like MMOs has been progressed fast, and modern MMOs are much better games than the early ones.
Plus, this forum likes to flog dead horses anyway. How many FFA pvp threads are there?
Again, if you don't want the players to do something, don't let them do it in the first place, especially if it's something they find fun. Creating an in-game punishment for playing the game as intended is absurd. If jail is intended as part of the PK gameplay (ex: Dransik, Wizardry Online) that's a completely different scenario than trying to use jail to punish players for doing what you let them do.
That is why very few games use such a system.
Again a quote with the same old argument? I think this has been answered to death till now. Are you following the thread and helping it progress or trying to set it back again and again?
Facing the truth is progress. You don't seem to understand "progress'" is just a matter of perspective, just like MMOs has been progressed fast, and modern MMOs are much better games than the early ones.
Plus, this forum likes to flog dead horses anyway. How many FFA pvp threads are there?
I like how you left out role play in the modern games which is what we are talking about, not ancient mechanics. Go pay a developer for your enjoyment in their f2p game please.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Comments
I did try. Too much walking around and backtracking. There are better games (for me, of course).
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
The highlighted bit can't be right. Being imprisoned for murdering people is REALISTIC which means it can't be not immersive. Or do you think that immersiveness means that mass murderers can walk in cities without the guards doing anything to them? So everyone's cool with the fact that person X murdered 10 people in cold blood/? THat's is not immersiveness. It's not realistic at all.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
I am beginning t think it is intentional. We are turning in circles with this argument.
But the fact remains...a game like Darkfall which was a slaughter fest without any sort of Criminal System in place...simply does not work.
Unless it is like Planetside 2 type game, meaning that the Core of it is simply fighting.
If you want to have a full Sandbox MMORPG, with Crafting and Adventure and Housing and Guild vs Guild Wars and Sieges and Role Play...then the abusive behavior of Ambush Random Killing needs to be detered to some degree, by some mechanics which can be part of gameplay itself but also tools to be used by players to facilitate reaching the goal of a Balanced experience for ALL.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Narius: "That does not sound fun."
VR: "Kind of the point of it though. Its an anti grief tool in a game where you could be killed.Its an anti grief tool in a game where you could be killed."
VR: "Killer a miner who has no chance to defend themselves is taking away their time. So I see no reason if you're defeated they can't take away some of yours."
VR: "Imprisonment is not something that's there to keep players from playing how the game is designed because random killing is unwanted variable."
VR: " The killers are back in 5 minutes killing again and eventually people stop caring about mounting an effort to defeat the killers because there is nothing that punishes or deters the killers who often have crap on even if you could loot them. They lose time due to death and time to trying to mount an effort to stop players that are back in minutes."
VR: "Its behavior control. A mechanism of gameplay used as grief reduction or anti-grief tool. Its there to make random killing less desirable."
VR: " It's a deterrent and punishment but it's done by game play."
Then you probably should do a better job of explaining yourself.
Again, if you don't want the players to do something, don't let them do it in the first place, especially if it's something they find fun. Creating an in-game punishment for playing the game as intended is absurd. If jail is intended as part of the PK gameplay (ex: Dransik, Wizardry Online) that's a completely different scenario than trying to use jail to punish players for doing what you let them do.
This applies to any aspect of gameplay. If your players are perching and you don't want them to, remove the perches(AC - Othoi Nest). If they're hiding under the bridge so the dragon can't reach them and you don't want them to do that, seal that area off (EQ - Vox/Warder). If your players are breeding massive self-multiplying slime armies and holding your cities ransom, fix the slimes (UO - Chrae of Atlantic).
What you don't do is create something that is really fun to do and then punish players for doing it too much.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Some MMOs base the repercussions on the individual scenario. For example, in Lineage 2 and UO (UO might have changed since) your status as an outcast changes based on whether the person fought back or not. If the person didn't fight back, you take a harsher hit to your notoriety/status. This reduces random PKing because the attacker now has to weigh the risk vs the reward for each target. Suddenly, a miner seems a much less desirable mark than the dungeon diver who is fatted on treasure and supplies.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Dear lock out timer,
Why are you punishing me?
You make a good point.
But you know as well as I the players can't police themselves because one side must maintain their hardcore mind. So they wont let them become content as in eve. It's dumb. Pvp is dumb as well because of this.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I just noticed OSS in your sig and that you're a long time UO player.
OSI and EA have made several different attempts over the years to shift where PVP took place and how much PVP was occurring - everything from temporarily slowing them down to the near decimation of the PK's entire stat/skill set.
From your experiences in UO, which systems do you feel were the most successful?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
"Its behavior control. A mechanism of gameplay used as grief reduction or anti-grief tool. Its there to make random killing less desirable." Seems pretty straight forward. ALL features allowed, disallowed, deterred are part of behavior control. Why would I want to make something less desireable if I didn't want it to happen? Obviously I want it to be less desirable because random killing is part of the game but my choice is not to have it the dominate part of the game. It would have a risk.
If I am imprisoning players in game how is not part of game play? I explained before that you must be defeated by guards or offended players(allied players too) and you would be locked up. I don't see how that's not part of game play?
Developers punish players for standing inside the red circles of a huge wind up attack by boss mobs. If they didn't want players to be in the red circles why have them is kind of what your saying.
In today's player landscape, such a system would not work very well. People work off bad Karma and continue the killing.
If no imprisonment system, I would be more for a system where the attacker takes a notoriety hit regardless of whether the target fought back or not. It is still an unprovoked murder with the intent to steal the victim's bellongings.
But I think an imprisonment system which ties in to the gameplay, such as ArchAge is actually more fun. because it involves all parties, someone has to follow the clues to declare your crime etc. It is much more imersive, much more realistic. Gives you the opportunity to avoid being imprisoned too if no one ever finds clues and declares your crime.
So if you are a smart murderer maybe you will never get caught, yet by the same token in order to be a smart murderer you would not be seeking to kill constantly repeatedly and totally randomly.
I feel you are not entirely thinking things through here, you seem to just want a repeat of past systems but times and behaviours have changed in the mean time.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Lock out timers are a great example. Players running SM "too much" in WOW? Player repeating "Just One More Time" (yes, that was the quest's name
) "too much" in PotBS? Lock out timers were put in place, BUT the devs replaced the content with other content they had more control over. Instead of nerfing those quests or making them undesirable, the devs used dailies - one of the many MUD/MMO band-aids that have become common practice over time.
In the FFA PVP scenario, as you point out, the players are the content, and devs have nowhere near the control over that as they do content that they themselves create. That's where it starts to get tricky in the curbing of PVP. I'm partial to the EVE and UO systems of security levels for a PVP focused MMO, especially ones where you have meaningful roles outside of just combat.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Actually, I said in a previous post that I liked Archeage's system.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I've played a game where GMs could put you in solitary confinement - literally a doorless, windowless room with stone walls, and somewhere in a black void where there was nothing around you, and you couldn't speak in any chat channel. I was once put there - I don't remember why - I think there was a bug that could make you end up there sometimes. The novelty of that wore off *real* quick.
If I would ever play such a game again, it'd be because 1) players have so much control over the game that something like a prison only existed because the community used the tools it was given to make it, 2) there was still a way to escape the prison, either on your own or with the help of other players, 3) besides confining in a certain area and possibly stripping you of some of your items (which you had some means of getting back), there would be no adverse effects on your character.
Player-ruin prisons without smart limitations are another Stanford prison experiment waiting to happen on a virtual plane...
But honestly, if there were such things to be found in a game, it wouldn't deter poor behavior. Personally, I might become an outlaw just to show how stupid the player-made laws and general system was...
The difference is in the purpose the content serves. Content designed to enrich the PVP gameplay is very different from content design to restrict the PVP gameplay. Since your goal is the latter, if the gameplay is desirable, it works against your intended goal.
If you look at Archeage's system, if someone wants to be a hardcore assassin and murder relentlessly, they can as long as they cover their tracks. The jail content is not intended to be an anti-grief tool or to curb PKing. More than likely, if people went on murderous rampages, as long as it was within the game's rules, the devs would do nothing to stop it. It's there to create fun for both sides of the fence, not to curb either, and it does so by adding more gameplay to the other side, not by trying to restrict the attacker's side.
From your posts so far, you are looking to create an anti-grief tool but you want that tool to be engaging gameplay. If that is not correct, please let me know as your posts seem to state that is the case.
If it is correct, What I'd like you to do is to actually walk through what you are suggesting - not the mechanics of it but the behavior of it - and see if that works the way you'd like it to.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That was probably because you insulted the GM, they used to do that in UO and the "cell" was exactly like that.
That is not the kind of imprisonment we are all discussing here however.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Lol, it's a possibility - it's been a very long time.
The reason I brought that up was to show how old it would get if a player had the kind of power to do something similar - hence the need for serious limits.
You're a pretty smart guy dude.
I'm partial to eve and UO too. but player made content is what is desired and most effective.
I think the how long can I last type game is best PK type gameplay. It replaces the hardcore player with the immersion player. That way they try to become content and allows for more epic hunts and battles.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Actually, I think it is an anti-grief tool. Because it channels the behavior. It is implicit I'll give you that, and not explicit "Oh you killed another player you go to jail"...
But out of 100 people just jumping in killing people, maybe 10 will choose to repeat it....maybe 10 will go down the Pirate path.
Of course, ArchAge's system applies to certain situations. It applies if you kill people of the same Faction as you. Lets not forget the game does have factions which are enemies and open targets at all times.
But this is no different than UO, there were factions there too. Order-Chaos factions could attack one another anytime anywhere.
But by default everyone was part of the undeclared "Civilian faction" if you will. So attacking a blue put the Notoriety System at work.
The system in ArchAge is pretty much the same and serves the same purpose within he context of what constitutes a crime and its goal is to contribute to reduce Same Faction PKilling, So it is in effect as much of an Anti-Grief mechanism as UO's notoriety system or EvE's Security Rating system. But more evolved with content in to it, the next version if you will.
And it could apply to any MMORPG with OW FFA PvP which does not have factions too.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
That is why very few games use such a system.
Again a quote with the same old argument? I think this has been answered to death till now. Are you following the thread and helping it progress or trying to set it back again and again?
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Any adverse effects from notoriety systems can be circumvented by using alts. The security status mechanic in Eve Online, for example, is a joke. Negative 10 sec status is a a badge of honor for some players. It does not discourage PK one bit.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
It has been answered poorly.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Facing the truth is progress. You don't seem to understand "progress'" is just a matter of perspective, just like MMOs has been progressed fast, and modern MMOs are much better games than the early ones.
Plus, this forum likes to flog dead horses anyway. How many FFA pvp threads are there?
I like how you left out role play in the modern games which is what we are talking about, not ancient mechanics. Go pay a developer for your enjoyment in their f2p game please.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"