That's not really the point. I'm trying to approach the game in it's own merits, not judge it against anything else. And yes, I find GW2's noob areas lame as well.
Another question.... When can I stop delivering pies and actually, you know, slay those dreadful squirrels of doom?
Key word here: Context - in two aspects: Story/Setting and Gameplay/Tutorial
First the Story/Setting:
If you follow the quest and story dialog, you realize there are story-related reasons why they have you doing all that.
You arrive in your chosen city as a newbie. Sounds like you chose Gridania (good choice. Yes, I'm biased. I regret nothing).
No one knows you. They make it clear that - among the Woodwailers - you're not even trusted; they assume you're going to cause trouble. Mother Miounne has to reassure you that as time goes on, and as you gain the trust of the people, that distrust will go away and you'll come to be regarded as one of Gridania's own.
So, you're an outsider at the beginning. No one knows you. No one trusts you. Nor do they have reason to. You're a stranger, not a conquering hero. So, they start you off small and simple.
As you complete those simple, menial tasks, their trust in you grows, and so you're asked to take on bigger and more important tasks, involving bigger and more dangerous foes. They're not going to hit you with all their greatest woes when they barely even know your name.
Joining your chosen DoW/DoM guild is the same. You're a newbie. You have demonstrated no knowledge nor skill in the discipline you're seeking to learn. Hence they're going to start you off simple to make sure "you know which end of the lance to hold", and don't go killing yourself. So, yes, you'll be asked to kill squirrels...
And so on.
Then there's the Gameplay/Tutorial aspect, which is interwoven into the story/setting...
The beginning levels are not designed or intended for seasoned MMO players. They're designed and intended for brand-new MMO players; people who are unfamiliar with the mechanics of playing one. Hence, they're not going to throw you in at the deep end right off the bat. They're not going to throw everything the game offers at you right off the bat. That would just overwhelm and chase off new players... and that's not what SE (or any developer) is looking to do.
Seasoned players will get through those tasks quickly and be on to the more difficult and involved stuff. They do, however, help introduce new players (seasoned MMO gamers or otherwise) to the world and area they start in.
If you're a vet player, just realize that the early levels are not "all about you". They're about the new players for whom all that stuff isn't second-nature. It amazes me how many people, who claim to be seasoned MMO gamers, can't see past their own noses enough to realize this. Pretty much every MMO does this. No MMO - however "hardcore" - just throws you in at the deep end.
About the tutorial aspect...
Asking you to deliver a pie is both a gameplay/tutorial thing, and a story thing. You're being sent off to talk to this guy at the Markets who is notoriously grumpy. The way to cheer him up is to give him one of Miounne's famous eel pies. He, in turn, lightens up and introduces you to yet another new part of the game: "Where you can buy stuff". This brings the activity down to a "personal level", gives the characters a "life" and personality. It also is introducing you to a mechanic you'll be using throughout the game: Giving items to NPCs to complete a task (e.g. giving him the eel pie).
No one is asking you to go off doing this stuff "just because". Each task you're given will either introduce you to a new gameplay mechanic, or have you repeat things you already learned... .since repetition is an effective way to learn.
If you feel all that storyline is pointless 'cause you're not reading it, then you have to also acknowledge that it's your choice to approach it that way. Your lack of interest in following the story or setting does not constitute a flaw in the design.
In all.. It's absolutely ridiculous to complain that the starting levels of a MMO are "too simple" or "too repetitive" or "not challenging enough". The reasons for this are quite obvious and quite logical... to anyone who takes the 10 seconds required to stop and think about it.
And yet... another swing and a miss...
The idea is not how hard the beginning mobs are. It is not that they are squirrels. The hoops any players has to jump through to do anything is astounding.
I can understand the storyline the writers are trying to convey, however badly implemented it is. And it is. Yes, I get it that I am new to the area, I'm not to be trusted, but face it, these quests were designed for children. The writers have a target audience. I'm not it, I know this. Face it, in writing there is a thing called, show, don't tell. The entire tutorial I'm being told what to do, where to go, I'm being told I'm not to be trusted. This is typical of having a younger target audience.
I understand that the different tutorial quests are designed to show you how to use the UI. But anyone with half a brain can understand that the quests that guide you through these steps are beyond silly. Some of them were just added to give you free exp, a couple of clicks are you are done.
I'm not debating how 'hardcore' it is, nor how 'challenging' it should be. My reason for making this thread was to discuss just how obscenely repetitive the quests are. The others were just things that were added in by, well, scroll up, not me.
As an update to the others....
I did make it into the archer's guild, but when I was doing that something even more silly happened. When I took aim at a squirrel, light surged from my simple beginning wooden bow, my screen flashed with enormous bright lights highlighting just how 'non'heroic' I was. Beams of red and blue lights shot out of my eyes and ass and when my bow was aimed at the ground, I let loose the string. The squirrel died, somehow, I don't understand how, I wasn't pointing my arrow at it. But that sure was a pretty light show from just shooting a simple arrow. Why is this needed?
I think I can clarify the confusion on why you are killing squirrels. The terrible creature you fight is the descendants of the Killer Rabbit named Caerbannog, which Tim the Enchanter gives disturbing account of the cruel,foul, bad tempered rodent.
"Follow. But! Follow only if ye be men of valor! For the entrance to this cave is guarded by a creature so foul, so cruel, that no man yet has fought with it... and lived! BONES of full fifty men lie *strewn* about its lair! So! Brave knights! If you do doubt your courage or your strength, come no further, for death awaits you all with nasty, big, pointy teeth..." Tim the Enchanter: Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail.
Originally posted by saiweed I DONT SEE THE PROBLEM, if you kill dragons from the start, what will you kill at the end? a DRAAGOOON DRAAAGOOOON , king dragon dragon GOD it makes no sense, ofcourse you start of hunting bullshit animals , you are a NOOB you just begun lol god wtf do you people even know what u want
Several games have you killing more "heroic" things at the start, such as bandits, orcs, undead etc.
You may be level 1, but your character is not a noob. In fact, he at least has some basic training in combat. Killing non-aggressive animals is something a person may do in ignorance when he's a kid, not as a trained warrior, or perhaps when hunting for something to eat.
That's not really the point. I'm trying to approach the game in it's own merits, not judge it against anything else. And yes, I find GW2's noob areas lame as well.
Another question.... When can I stop delivering pies and actually, you know, slay those dreadful squirrels of doom?
Key word here: Context - in two aspects: Story/Setting and Gameplay/Tutorial
First the Story/Setting:
If you follow the quest and story dialog, you realize there are story-related reasons why they have you doing all that.
You arrive in your chosen city as a newbie. Sounds like you chose Gridania (good choice. Yes, I'm biased. I regret nothing).
No one knows you. They make it clear that - among the Woodwailers - you're not even trusted; they assume you're going to cause trouble. Mother Miounne has to reassure you that as time goes on, and as you gain the trust of the people, that distrust will go away and you'll come to be regarded as one of Gridania's own.
So, you're an outsider at the beginning. No one knows you. No one trusts you. Nor do they have reason to. You're a stranger, not a conquering hero. So, they start you off small and simple.
As you complete those simple, menial tasks, their trust in you grows, and so you're asked to take on bigger and more important tasks, involving bigger and more dangerous foes. They're not going to hit you with all their greatest woes when they barely even know your name.
Joining your chosen DoW/DoM guild is the same. You're a newbie. You have demonstrated no knowledge nor skill in the discipline you're seeking to learn. Hence they're going to start you off simple to make sure "you know which end of the lance to hold", and don't go killing yourself. So, yes, you'll be asked to kill squirrels...
And so on.
Then there's the Gameplay/Tutorial aspect, which is interwoven into the story/setting...
The beginning levels are not designed or intended for seasoned MMO players. They're designed and intended for brand-new MMO players; people who are unfamiliar with the mechanics of playing one. Hence, they're not going to throw you in at the deep end right off the bat. They're not going to throw everything the game offers at you right off the bat. That would just overwhelm and chase off new players... and that's not what SE (or any developer) is looking to do.
Seasoned players will get through those tasks quickly and be on to the more difficult and involved stuff. They do, however, help introduce new players (seasoned MMO gamers or otherwise) to the world and area they start in.
If you're a vet player, just realize that the early levels are not "all about you". They're about the new players for whom all that stuff isn't second-nature. It amazes me how many people, who claim to be seasoned MMO gamers, can't see past their own noses enough to realize this. Pretty much every MMO does this. No MMO - however "hardcore" - just throws you in at the deep end.
About the tutorial aspect...
Asking you to deliver a pie is both a gameplay/tutorial thing, and a story thing. You're being sent off to talk to this guy at the Markets who is notoriously grumpy. The way to cheer him up is to give him one of Miounne's famous eel pies. He, in turn, lightens up and introduces you to yet another new part of the game: "Where you can buy stuff". This brings the activity down to a "personal level", gives the characters a "life" and personality. It also is introducing you to a mechanic you'll be using throughout the game: Giving items to NPCs to complete a task (e.g. giving him the eel pie).
No one is asking you to go off doing this stuff "just because". Each task you're given will either introduce you to a new gameplay mechanic, or have you repeat things you already learned... .since repetition is an effective way to learn.
If you feel all that storyline is pointless 'cause you're not reading it, then you have to also acknowledge that it's your choice to approach it that way. Your lack of interest in following the story or setting does not constitute a flaw in the design.
In all.. It's absolutely ridiculous to complain that the starting levels of a MMO are "too simple" or "too repetitive" or "not challenging enough". The reasons for this are quite obvious and quite logical... to anyone who takes the 10 seconds required to stop and think about it.
And yet... another swing and a miss...
The idea is not how hard the beginning mobs are. It is not that they are squirrels. The hoops any players has to jump through to do anything is astounding.
I think I figured out the OP's arguement. He doesnt want to work for anything. He wants to run up to a quest giver pick up the quest then turn it in without any work. I think they should just take out the quests all together and just make you start with everything. Then he will be happy.
In all.. It's absolutely ridiculous to complain that the starting levels of a MMO are "too simple" or "too repetitive" or "not challenging enough". The reasons for this are quite obvious and quite logical... to anyone who takes the 10 seconds required to stop and think about it.
How is it ridiculous to complain about something you're not enjoying?
You broke down the picture fairly well on what is going on, but that's fairly obvious from the get go, as it plays out right in front of you. That breakdown doesn't excuse the lack of soul in a lot of the dialogue. You're acting as though the only way to ease someone into the experience is to offer soulless filler, which it's not.
You say I paint a good picture of what's going on... yet still manage to completely miss (ignore?) the specific complaints/arguments I'm addressing with it.
All you're doing in your post is tossing hastily thrown-together strawmen at me. You've given me nothing worth responding to... Try asking questions relevant to what I'm addressing, and we can have a discussion.
To touch on one key thing you said though: That you find the dialog "soulless" is your own subjective view of it, and you're certainly free to express that opinion. However, it does not constitute a "design flaw". Others, myself included, find the dialog lively and interesting.
One thing I said? That's the only thing I said, as it's my only real complaint about the game, the presentation is rather boring to me thus far and still is after playing the last few hours.
If a post isn't worth responding to people generally don't respond. Yet here we are at round two.
I didn't use a strawman I used an opinion, and I did address what you're trying to explain away with the quest presentation summation above, which doesn't change the core complaint here, and that is the dialogue and the way it's presented.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
FFXIV ARR doesn't try to be ground braking and the developers are quite honest regarding that! It's Final Fantasy game. If you like that lore and that kind of theme, you'll like FFXIV. It's not as hardcore as FFXI, but times change and players get older and with more responsabilities in their real lifes...
I've been on the Beta, I've pre-ordered and I'm enjoying it. It feels a bit like vanilla WoW with some quality of life improvements. I'm not sure if i really will get used to the art style, but I'm enjoying the journey. You can explore, you can not follow the quest hubs if you wish - like in the original WoW.
I prefer this old school combat to the action combat. GW2 bores me, TSW almost gives an heart attack. I'm 36, I've a couple of hours a day to relax with some PC game, I don't want stress. I don't like the fact that games are getting to easy, but it's also true that I don't have the time or the patience that I had when I was 22 or something...
My FFXIV ARR referral code for new EU accounts: 5JPF7ZQ3 Step into the amazing world of Eorzea! Use this reference code on a new account and we'll both get goodies for it!
I think us true experienced MMO players were just truly insulted and angered by the first two hours of the game. The non- experienced MMO sheep probably enjoyed being a mail man for a couple of hours then having your powerful hero slay squirrels. This initial experience is just such a turn off that its hard to have faith in the rest of the game. To those who do, have probably never played an MMO or are a mail man irl.
FFXIV ARR doesn't try to be ground braking and the developers are quite honest regarding that! It's Final Fantasy game. If you like that lore and that kind of theme, you'll like FFXIV. It's not as hardcore as FFXI, but times change and players get older and with more responsabilities in their real lifes...
I've been on the Beta, I've pre-ordered and I'm enjoying it. It feels a bit like vanilla WoW with some quality of life improvements. I'm not sure if i really will get used to the art style, but I'm enjoying the journey. You can explore, you can not follow the quest hubs if you wish - like in the original WoW.
I prefer this old school combat to the action combat. GW2 bores me, TSW almost gives an heart attack. I'm 36, I've a couple of hours a day to relax with some PC game, I don't want stress. I don't like the fact that games are getting to easy, but it's also true that I don't have the time or the patience that I had when I was 22 or something...
I love this argument when defending "casual" gameplay. That we all have more responsibility now and fewer hours to game. The thought that a game is actually challenging in our twilight years is unthinkable! Everyone that played Everquest and FFXI was clearly 13yrs old with no responsibilities for this line of thinking to work. The thought that there were 30yr old gamers with full time jobs and lives outside of them playing Everquest and Final Fantasy XI is clearly insane...
Woot! Made it to Hellfire peninsula... and I'm Killing boars....
Except you forgot one thing. WOW was actually FUN (hence it being the biggest MMO of ALL TIME)
This, well this is like watching paint dry. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
------------------------------ You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
Originally posted by bwinthehouse I think us true experienced MMO players were just truly insulted and angered by the first two hours of the game. The non- experienced MMO sheep probably enjoyed being a mail man for a couple of hours then having your powerful hero slay squirrels. This initial experience is just such a turn off that its hard to have faith in the rest of the game. To those who do, have probably never played an MMO or are a mail man irl.
US? You mean you, alone? True experienced MMO players don't agree with you and "US".
Comments
And yet... another swing and a miss...
The idea is not how hard the beginning mobs are. It is not that they are squirrels. The hoops any players has to jump through to do anything is astounding.
I can understand the storyline the writers are trying to convey, however badly implemented it is. And it is. Yes, I get it that I am new to the area, I'm not to be trusted, but face it, these quests were designed for children. The writers have a target audience. I'm not it, I know this. Face it, in writing there is a thing called, show, don't tell. The entire tutorial I'm being told what to do, where to go, I'm being told I'm not to be trusted. This is typical of having a younger target audience.
I understand that the different tutorial quests are designed to show you how to use the UI. But anyone with half a brain can understand that the quests that guide you through these steps are beyond silly. Some of them were just added to give you free exp, a couple of clicks are you are done.
I'm not debating how 'hardcore' it is, nor how 'challenging' it should be. My reason for making this thread was to discuss just how obscenely repetitive the quests are. The others were just things that were added in by, well, scroll up, not me.
As an update to the others....
I did make it into the archer's guild, but when I was doing that something even more silly happened. When I took aim at a squirrel, light surged from my simple beginning wooden bow, my screen flashed with enormous bright lights highlighting just how 'non'heroic' I was. Beams of red and blue lights shot out of my eyes and ass and when my bow was aimed at the ground, I let loose the string. The squirrel died, somehow, I don't understand how, I wasn't pointing my arrow at it. But that sure was a pretty light show from just shooting a simple arrow. Why is this needed?
I think I can clarify the confusion on why you are killing squirrels. The terrible creature you fight is the descendants of the Killer Rabbit named Caerbannog, which Tim the Enchanter gives disturbing account of the cruel,foul, bad tempered rodent.
"Follow. But! Follow only if ye be men of valor! For the entrance to this cave is guarded by a creature so foul, so cruel, that no man yet has fought with it... and lived! BONES of full fifty men lie *strewn* about its lair! So! Brave knights! If you do doubt your courage or your strength, come no further, for death awaits you all with nasty, big, pointy teeth..." Tim the Enchanter: Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail.
Several games have you killing more "heroic" things at the start, such as bandits, orcs, undead etc.
You may be level 1, but your character is not a noob. In fact, he at least has some basic training in combat. Killing non-aggressive animals is something a person may do in ignorance when he's a kid, not as a trained warrior, or perhaps when hunting for something to eat.
Let's complain about everything, especially something that's not even a big deal.
I think I figured out the OP's arguement. He doesnt want to work for anything. He wants to run up to a quest giver pick up the quest then turn it in without any work. I think they should just take out the quests all together and just make you start with everything. Then he will be happy.
One thing I said? That's the only thing I said, as it's my only real complaint about the game, the presentation is rather boring to me thus far and still is after playing the last few hours.
If a post isn't worth responding to people generally don't respond. Yet here we are at round two.
I didn't use a strawman I used an opinion, and I did address what you're trying to explain away with the quest presentation summation above, which doesn't change the core complaint here, and that is the dialogue and the way it's presented.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
FFXIV ARR doesn't try to be ground braking and the developers are quite honest regarding that! It's Final Fantasy game. If you like that lore and that kind of theme, you'll like FFXIV. It's not as hardcore as FFXI, but times change and players get older and with more responsabilities in their real lifes...
I've been on the Beta, I've pre-ordered and I'm enjoying it. It feels a bit like vanilla WoW with some quality of life improvements. I'm not sure if i really will get used to the art style, but I'm enjoying the journey. You can explore, you can not follow the quest hubs if you wish - like in the original WoW.
I prefer this old school combat to the action combat. GW2 bores me, TSW almost gives an heart attack. I'm 36, I've a couple of hours a day to relax with some PC game, I don't want stress. I don't like the fact that games are getting to easy, but it's also true that I don't have the time or the patience that I had when I was 22 or something...
My FFXIV ARR referral code for new EU accounts: 5JPF7ZQ3
Step into the amazing world of Eorzea! Use this reference code on a new account and we'll both get goodies for it!
I love this argument when defending "casual" gameplay. That we all have more responsibility now and fewer hours to game. The thought that a game is actually challenging in our twilight years is unthinkable! Everyone that played Everquest and FFXI was clearly 13yrs old with no responsibilities for this line of thinking to work. The thought that there were 30yr old gamers with full time jobs and lives outside of them playing Everquest and Final Fantasy XI is clearly insane...
Except you forgot one thing. WOW was actually FUN (hence it being the biggest MMO of ALL TIME)
This, well this is like watching paint dry. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
------------------------------
You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
"Let destruction rain!" from Asbel Tales of Graces f
US? You mean you, alone? True experienced MMO players don't agree with you and "US".