And I'm not trumpeting about oldschool games, I dont want oldschool games, I want new games, the problem is we get the same game that was made 10 years ago every year now. Thank god about the new direction some big studios were suggesting about in the PAX future of mmorpgs panel. No more clones.
What are you talking about?
MOBA is new 2 years back.
Destiny and Division looks new.
TSW has a new setting.
STO is the only star Trek MMORPG (or for that matter, only recent star trek TNG GAME)
......
First of all, MOBAs are not mmorpgs, at all. Destiny and division looks fresh but I dont know if they are mmorpgs also, and they are for consoles. TSW has new setting, but I wasnt talking about setting, TSW is very traditional mmorpg with same mechanics gameplay wise.
But yeah, we are getting something fresh apparently soon enough. GW2 kinda was, but it's full of systems I dont like, no factions, no open world pvp, standard like questing systems camouflaged... Dont get me wrong, I like what Anet did, they tried something different, and they kind did, but they also did a lot of things I dont like, exploring that is based on already marked locations on map, heavy zoning, instead of quests quest like quest areas, semi-tab target combat etc etc, it's not a bad game, it just did not feel right for me, but they did do some things different and at least it felt fresh if not optimal for me.
First of all, MOBAs are not mmorpgs, at all. Destiny and division looks fresh but I dont know if they are mmorpgs also, and they are for consoles. TSW has new setting, but I wasnt talking about setting, TSW is very traditional mmorpg with same mechanics gameplay wise.
If being on a console means something isn't an MMORPG, FF11 isn't an MMORPG and neither is DUST 514.
And boy do I have some bad news for you come November of this year and beyond; how many MMORPGs are the next-gen consoles getting?
I'm surprised people are saying 'we haven't gotten new MMOs' when I see plenty of them.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Originally posted by Cephus404 I absolutely don't agree. The player marketplace is not the same today as it was back then. People need to stop pretending that it is. As soon as MMOs went mainstream, the old-school players were completely dwarfed by the incoming mainstream playerbase. There just aren't enough old-school players to make that kind of game financially viable anymore.
The genie is out of the bottle, it's never going to go back in, no matter how many people wish it would happen.
You are insulting the new players tbh, just because you only get fastfood mmorpgs today does not mean that there's no one in the new players group who would like to play a bit more deeper games. When you dont even have the choise it's kinda hard to argue how well or how bad a big budget mmorpg with more depth and complexion, something that strays from the basic formula, would do currently.
There aren't a significant number because if there were, market research conducted by MMOs would find them and assuming there are enough people to make a game financially worthwhile, they'd be making games for them. The fact that they do not shows that there just aren't that many people that want an old-school game.
You people can keep trying to convince yourself that old-school games are still viable, they just aren't.
While I agree with your premise that the playerbase has changed, I disagree that an older, deeper style MMORPG would not work. The playerbase is now made up of "Gamefly" people who can not get enough games to satisfy their needs. Pokemon players that "Gotta play 'em ALL!" ("Gotta catch 'em all!")
What MMO do these "market researchers" use for their data? Is there a well made "old style" MMORPG for them to even look at? Or are they only looking at the new-fangled Play and done MMOs we have today and seeing their success, "assuming" that an older, deeper MMORPG would not work. Please do not cite EverQuest or Ultima Online, as these old school games are not anything like they used to be.
Nobody today knows if a well made old style MMORPG would be successful. Nobody is willing to try. Until one is published, we will never know.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
First of all, MOBAs are not mmorpgs, at all. Destiny and division looks fresh but I dont know if they are mmorpgs also, and they are for consoles. TSW has new setting, but I wasnt talking about setting, TSW is very traditional mmorpg with same mechanics gameplay wise.
If being on a console means something isn't an MMORPG, FF11 isn't an MMORPG and neither is DUST 514.
And boy do I have some bad news for you come November of this year and beyond; how many MMORPGs are the next-gen consoles getting?
I'm surprised people are saying 'we haven't gotten new MMOs' when I see plenty of them.
Oh no no no, I'm not saying a game is not a mmorpg if it's for consoles, it was just a personal preference, I dont do consoles. I dont know much about console mmorpgs and I dont look into them since I dont play console games, they can be mmorpgs sure, just not my territory, I could have been more clear on that sorry about that.
The MMOrpg genre is designed for the patient, curious, adventurous, ambitious gamers. The type of players who like to socialize, explore, and achieve self-set goals. It is factually not designed to be hopped-between and played solo. MMORPG's are the outlet for exploration and adventure not churning through quest after quest, and that is ultimately what these modern MMORPG's are designed for, all in the name of greed and money, not ambition.
There is no single "MMORPGs should be designed this way."
If there was, it wouldn't be the answer you want.
There are only successful MMORPG formulas, and unsuccessful ones.
So these new MMO's are succesfull? are we looking at the same games? you know the ones wich have to Go F2P or else they would die out. I don't really see any succesfull MMo's since WoW. They would have remained sub based games if they where succesfull enough.
People would pay monthly for a game they deem worthy.
First of all, MOBAs are not mmorpgs, at all. Destiny and division looks fresh but I dont know if they are mmorpgs also, and they are for consoles. TSW has new setting, but I wasnt talking about setting, TSW is very traditional mmorpg with same mechanics gameplay wise.
If being on a console means something isn't an MMORPG, FF11 isn't an MMORPG and neither is DUST 514.
And boy do I have some bad news for you come November of this year and beyond; how many MMORPGs are the next-gen consoles getting?
I'm surprised people are saying 'we haven't gotten new MMOs' when I see plenty of them.
Since when did Dust 514 became an MMO? IT a FPS linked to an MMO. there's no MMO anywhere near it.
The MMOrpg genre is designed for the patient, curious, adventurous, ambitious gamers. The type of players who like to socialize, explore, and achieve self-set goals. It is factually not designed to be hopped-between and played solo. MMORPG's are the outlet for exploration and adventure not churning through quest after quest, and that is ultimately what these modern MMORPG's are designed for, all in the name of greed and money, not ambition.
There is no single "MMORPGs should be designed this way."
If there was, it wouldn't be the answer you want.
There are only successful MMORPG formulas, and unsuccessful ones.
So these new MMO's are succesfull? are we looking at the same games? you know the ones wich have to Go F2P or else they would die out. I don't really see any succesfull MMo's since WoW. They would have remained sub based games if they where succesfull enough.
People would pay monthly for a game they deem worthy.
I'm looking at the ones that have released expansions, more content and have 50-500k subs with millions of active f2p players.
So after some retooling where they spent more than was reasonable to expect from a sub based game, yep. They are almost all pretty successfull.
50-500k subs is no longer considered enough subs by the company to recoup the cost. So they either go f2p to get more money or the don't cost as much to build. Likely they'll do both.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
All I have to say is, when people pull out the "rose-colored glasses" card, those games must have been doing something right: people played them for years.
It is common to hear people say: "I played UO/SWG/AC/DAOC/AO for years when it first came out....". So they must have been a reason for that. There was more to do in those games? No themepark to blow through and be bored? No easy mode? Better communities? Gamers? Or that they were just better games.
These days? Most people quit in the first couple months, post launch.
So, games people played for years, or ones people quit in a month?
All I have to say is, when people pull out the "rose-colored glasses" card, those games must have been doing something right: people played them for years.
It is common to hear people say: "I played UO/SWG/AC/DAOC/AO for years when it first came out....". So they must have been a reason for that. There was more to do in those games? No themepark to blow through and be bored? No easy mode? Better communities? Gamers? Or that they were just better games.
These days? Most people quit in the first couple months, post launch.
And they did.
However just as many people (50-500k subs) are playing these games for years too (the ones that have been out for years). So they must be doing something right as well.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
All I have to say is, when people pull out the "rose-colored glasses" card, those games must have been doing something right: people played them for years.
It is common to hear people say: "I played UO/SWG/AC/DAOC/AO for years when it first came out....". So they must have been a reason for that. There was more to do in those games? No themepark to blow through and be bored? No easy mode? Better communities? Gamers? Or that they were just better games.
These days? Most people quit in the first couple months, post launch.
And they did.
However just as many people (50-500k subs) are playing these games for years too (the ones that have been out for years). So they must be doing something right as well.
Tell that to all the people that made TOR and found themselves in the unemployment line.
All I have to say is, when people pull out the "rose-colored glasses" card, those games must have been doing something right: people played them for years.
It is common to hear people say: "I played UO/SWG/AC/DAOC/AO for years when it first came out....". So they must have been a reason for that. There was more to do in those games? No themepark to blow through and be bored? No easy mode? Better communities? Gamers? Or that they were just better games.
These days? Most people quit in the first couple months, post launch.
And they did.
However just as many people (50-500k subs) are playing these games for years too (the ones that have been out for years). So they must be doing something right as well.
Tell that to all the people that made TOR and found themselves in the unemployment line.
They allready know it.
Tor themselves stated 500k subs adn 1.7 million active f2p players. They just made the mistake of thinking they would get more subs than is reasonable (only a few have every broken the 500k mark) and so built a super expensive game for it.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
So these new MMO's are succesfull? are we looking at the same games? you know the ones wich have to Go F2P or else they would die out. I don't really see any succesfull MMo's since WoW. They would have remained sub based games if they where succesfull enough.
People would pay monthly for a game they deem worthy.
once again, people fail to realize that these companies making these new mmorpgs are making PLENTY of money. just because you don't think their games are successful, does not mean that they are not laughing all the way to the bank, wondering why you guys still pay subs and spend 20$ on fluff in cash shops. just to rage-quit a month later...
So these new MMO's are succesfull? are we looking at the same games? you know the ones wich have to Go F2P or else they would die out. I don't really see any succesfull MMo's since WoW. They would have remained sub based games if they where succesfull enough.
People would pay monthly for a game they deem worthy.
Who said anything about all new MMOs being successful? 80% of everything is crap. This remains true of MMORPG releases.
We haven't seen runaway successes like WOW, but most of these games are financially sound investments with moderate profitability. Going F2P really is just a matter of, "Gosh, should we press the 2x Revenue Button? Maybe we should. We're a business, after all." It really has little to do with whether or not people would pay monthly, and everything to do with the fact that the game is going to make more as F2P. I assure you, game teams are not sitting at home chewing their fingernails over the fact that they pressed the 2x Revenue Button and are now raking in twice as much money.
Certainly there's a discussion to be had about whether MMORPGs specifically can remain fun longterm with a F2P system, and whether the game's shop sells flexibility, content, and vanity (acceptable "lateral" purchases), or whether it sells victory (fun-depriving "vertical" purchases.)
Certainly there's a discussion about how MMORPGs, by nature of being large projects, are risk-averse and thus almost cripplingly light on innovation.
Certainly there's a discussion about how MMORPGs fail to offer the correct spread of challenges, instead offering a single difficulty option which many consider too easy.
But I don't think there's really a question over whether modern games are successful.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
First of all, MOBAs are not mmorpgs, at all. Destiny and division looks fresh but I dont know if they are mmorpgs also, and they are for consoles. TSW has new setting, but I wasnt talking about setting, TSW is very traditional mmorpg with same mechanics gameplay wise.
If being on a console means something isn't an MMORPG, FF11 isn't an MMORPG and neither is DUST 514.
And boy do I have some bad news for you come November of this year and beyond; how many MMORPGs are the next-gen consoles getting?
I'm surprised people are saying 'we haven't gotten new MMOs' when I see plenty of them.
Since when did Dust 514 became an MMO? IT a FPS linked to an MMO. there's no MMO anywhere near it.
This is true. Mmorpg-younglings need to differentiate a mmorpg and a simple online game that is, or that is not, attached a real online or even mmo-game. No insult intented, there just is a huge difference.
Nostalgia? No. If i could repurchase the game today and it was alive, in fact, if it was alive at all I would still be playing.
Sometimes you can't see that it is nostalgia, when it actually is. You can't say yourself that you don't have it, because the whole point of it is you don't always realize. Don't act like a know it all, because it will be hard for you to make decent discussion with that mentality.
You generalize to much, while you played a certain type of games, a very specific type. At the same time there were other games, that you maybe tried or maybe not. Modern mmo's do embrace mechanics of old mmo's, only not the ones you liked. There were two ways in which genre could have evolved, and it naturally went in the other direction than you expected due to a higher demand in that specific direction.
Your niche is just something developers don't want to touch for many reasons, one being that a specific kind of people like it (including you), and it is a minority, that would not return the production money no matter how small the project is.
Some day I wish some indie mmo with features you like would finally come out, because so far it is just not enough of a hint for you that they are all dying before even being released, so for once it could at least survive until release and then die, so maybe you will finally see how pointless it is.
Originally posted by Burntvet
These days? Most people quit in the first couple months, post launch.
So, games people played for years, or ones people quit in a month?
Seems to me that speaks for itself.
It does not. There are way too many other factors that you have to take into consideration. It is like saying that new cars are much worse than the old cars, because old cars didn't cause so much deaths. Well, old cars didn't have fatal accidents not because they were better, they didn't have fatal accidents because the speed was to low to kill anyone and there were few thousand drivers not millions.... Funny I have to give so obvious example, but it is right on spot.
The nature of gaming changed, the expectations of players changed, the amount of players changed, social groups playing games changed, age variations between gamers changed, times changed, technology changed, just to name few of many factors.
And you are comparing this completely new environment to the old one and saying that what worked in the old one would definately work in new one and that new one is not working because it is not like the old one. Ignoring the huge and incredibly important factors that I just wrote... not a great way of thinking.
People "these days" quit after month because it is "these days", and not the "old times".
I find it odd that a thread titled 'reality' doesn't have a single fact or figure to reference and only deals with the OP's opinion on said games.
Also this quote is just mind bogglingly arrogant;
The MMOrpg genre is designed for the patient, curious, adventurous, ambitious gamers. The type of players who like to socialize, explore, and achieve self-set goals. It is factually not designed to be hopped-between and played solo.
Cause obviously those who want to play MMOs as a casual solo-friendly way should not play MMOs. /Sarcasm
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
All I have to say is, when people pull out the "rose-colored glasses" card, those games must have been doing something right: people played them for years.
It is common to hear people say: "I played UO/SWG/AC/DAOC/AO for years when it first came out....". So they must have been a reason for that. There was more to do in those games? No themepark to blow through and be bored? No easy mode? Better communities? Gamers? Or that they were just better games.
These days? Most people quit in the first couple months, post launch.
So, games people played for years, or ones people quit in a month?
Seems to me that speaks for itself.
to be honest. the only games I revisit years later are Warcraft titles (mainly WC3) or 'Elder Scrolls'.
no other game franchises have grabbed me more than those. but I imagine that a couple years from now, I will still find joy in some of the good games that have come out recently, mainly Dark Souls, and some of the surprisingly fun indie games that I have accumulated on steam.
as far as MMO's go, only WoW and EQ2 have ever given me reasons to resub and its been a while for those two as well. future plans of playing again are- never.
so in conclusion, none of the games I plan on revisiting (or play years from now) are MMO's. Not a single one. why? because MMO's are PYRAMID SCAMS. they offer low-quality expereince compared to 'SOME' single players games and charge way more for it. in fact, they don't STOP charging you. and people claim that this unending pricetag is a show of 'quality'? seriously, pull your head out of your ass. as stated above, GW2 proved that subs are just a scam, but many 'self-proclaimed- old-school-gamers' like to ignore that.
enjoy feeding money to the same people that you claim are ripping you off by making inferior games. the mentaility of the people complaining are the same idiots that shell out 60$ plus 15$ a month for a game that they were never that interested in, just so they have some ground to stand on when they come to MMORPG.com to cry about it in efforts to pretend that their voice means a damn.
MMO's that I found worthy of my time and money, at least for the duration of my stay. I'll even include why-
WoW- like many (most?) Warcraft RTS fans, i had to try it. and i loved it for a few years too. i still have love for the game, even if i don't like some of the changes and stopped playing. more than anything, i just outgrew tab-targeting mechanics or i would still be an on/off player.
City of Villans - (could never roll a hero for long) the character creator was amazing. abilities also seemed unique compared to playing fantasy games, which is what i prefer. oh yeah... flying was awesome.
EQ2 - I love Neriak, the dark elves, and the Arasi (evil fae). a lot really. that said, i spent more time in EQ2 coming up with creative ways to manipulate furniture than I spent on anything else. A LOT of time.
GW2 - the tab-tageting mixed with twitch-combat made the combat tolerable, but what i really liked was the community and how easy it was to play with others and find similar goals without steping on each others toes. but more than anything, i played because i loved my Mezmer dual-wield sword build very much.
there are at least a dozen other MMO's that I've tried, but those are the ones i look back fondly on. Each for a different reason. so while they were all very similar games, they had aspects that made them standout.
I absolutely don't agree. The player marketplace is not the same today as it was back then. People need to stop pretending that it is. As soon as MMOs went mainstream, the old-school players were completely dwarfed by the incoming mainstream playerbase. There just aren't enough old-school players to make that kind of game financially viable anymore.
The genie is out of the bottle, it's never going to go back in, no matter how many people wish it would happen.
You are insulting the new players tbh, just because you only get fastfood mmorpgs today does not mean that there's no one in the new players group who would like to play a bit more deeper games. When you dont even have the choise it's kinda hard to argue how well or how bad a big budget mmorpg with more depth and complexion, something that strays from the basic formula, would do currently.
There aren't a significant number because if there were, market research conducted by MMOs would find them and assuming there are enough people to make a game financially worthwhile, they'd be making games for them. The fact that they do not shows that there just aren't that many people that want an old-school game.
You people can keep trying to convince yourself that old-school games are still viable, they just aren't.
So games that get some funding and end up launching, Mortal Online, Xyson, etc that are total garbage to many people yet could of funded a similar game to SWG or AC1? Funding is available if a team wants to make it. The problem is no team wants to make it as financially it is quicker and cheaper to make a POS market the ingame store and make quick cash by the younger crowd.
MMOs are no different now than whatever random Movie tie-in game is available for the most part. Market research doesn't dictate enough that there wouldn't be a viable product financially. What it dictates right now is its easier to make a APP for one of the iOS systems, sell it to craploads of people and make millions in return all in a few months time. Games as a whole are dying as their cost to produce does not correlate to the ridiculous amount that those return.
The other problem is people and companies think on WOW terms. It was an anomaly. A Fluke. Right place, right time. Fortunately or unfortunately until it closes down completely your going to still have a large mass of people playing that taking away from other games. As soon as another game becomes a time sink and not as "fun" or on par with WOW, they jump ship back to it.
Its almost like what EA is doing with BF franchise releasing games at lightning speed as its easier for them to make money like CoD with Activision Blizzard or whatever the new official name is.
Its almost like what EA is doing with BF franchise releasing games at lightning speed as its easier for them to make money like CoD with Activision Blizzard or whatever the new official name is.
I am not seeing what's so wrong with what this post is complaining about.
Demand / Supply, free-market etc.
Working as intended.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I find it odd that a thread titled 'reality' doesn't have a single fact or figure to reference and only deals with the OP's opinion on said games.
Also this quote is just mind bogglingly arrogant;
The MMOrpg genre is designed for the patient, curious, adventurous, ambitious gamers. The type of players who like to socialize, explore, and achieve self-set goals. It is factually not designed to be hopped-between and played solo.
Cause obviously those who want to play MMOs as a casual solo-friendly way should not play MMOs. /Sarcasm
Im sorry but this quote is a great summary of what the mmorpg genre used to be about. Most of these games we have today might be viewed as mmorpg's but lack the very basics of what defined an mmorpg. It is now about cheap thrills and quick cash; but you either enjoy whats out or dont play at all. Thank god ffxiv was released.
So games that get some funding and end up launching, Mortal Online, Xyson, etc that are total garbage to many people yet could of funded a similar game to SWG or AC1? Funding is available if a team wants to make it. The problem is no team wants to make it as financially it is quicker and cheaper to make a POS market the ingame store and make quick cash by the younger crowd.
MMOs are no different now than whatever random Movie tie-in game is available for the most part. Market research doesn't dictate enough that there wouldn't be a viable product financially. What it dictates right now is its easier to make a APP for one of the iOS systems, sell it to craploads of people and make millions in return all in a few months time. Games as a whole are dying as their cost to produce does not correlate to the ridiculous amount that those return.
The other problem is people and companies think on WOW terms. It was an anomaly. A Fluke. Right place, right time. Fortunately or unfortunately until it closes down completely your going to still have a large mass of people playing that taking away from other games. As soon as another game becomes a time sink and not as "fun" or on par with WOW, they jump ship back to it.
Its almost like what EA is doing with BF franchise releasing games at lightning speed as its easier for them to make money like CoD with Activision Blizzard or whatever the new official name is.
First of all what is wrong with being financially safe, and easy money? Are you telling me that you would be the great samaritan, that would take the hard way and sacrifice his possible income for others? Wouldn't it be better to just earn s**t load of money and give them for your family, or to charity, than to waste them on a bunch of old gamers that will complain no matter how good the final product is? Unless you are willing to risk your own job just to satisfy a small group of other people you don't know, you have no rights to expect other people to do the same.
And there were plenty of attempts to make niche games, and few of them on Kickstarter. Some are even now, if you bother to search for them. And yes, they do fail to gather funds, and disappear from the web as fast and sudden as they appeared. You don't see them, because if they don't manage to collect the money, they are just removed from funding site/their own website. And don't be so bold to tell that someone should take any risk for you.
Market research is the only thing that any sane company should use in planing, not some forum ranting, or personal feelings.
Originally posted by c0exist
Originally posted by jpnz
Also this quote is just mind bogglingly arrogant;
The MMOrpg genre is designed for the patient, curious, adventurous, ambitious gamers. The type of players who like to socialize, explore, and achieve self-set goals. It is factually not designed to be hopped-between and played solo.
Im sorry but this quote is a great summary of what the mmorpg genre used to be about. Most of these games we have today might be viewed as mmorpg's but lack the very basics of what defined an mmorpg. It is now about cheap thrills and quick cash; but you either enjoy whats out or dont play at all. Thank god ffxiv was released.
It is funny as I see no adventure, or ambition in FFXIV, so it is once again only an opinion of arogant player that thinks the game is good because he is in it, and that the game is ultimately smarter and more clever than other games, because he with his great mind finds it so.
To everyone who so strongly opposes P2P. I want to give you a look into what MMOs would be like if we just harbored the mechanics that have been successful and have maintained such a loving, loyal player-base/community, rather than crushing it at every turn for the sole fact that god-forbid a couple dollars should be spent a month.
Let's reminisce...
Asheron's Call was my very first MMO. This game, back in the day, was groundbreaking. Though in today's standards this game doesn't have such an attraction to new players as it used to, the gameplay mechanics are still fantastic, even compared to the new MMORPGs. This game has a huge open world, the friendliest community i have literally ever seen. For example...
My First day in this game I remember I met a Viamontian standing outside Yaraq, and he noticed I was nooby. He then offered me gold, armor, food, spell runes and the sorts, and i was inducted into his Allegiance. The guild/allegiance had helped me throughout the game for the entirety I had played. We ran through dungeons, did mass PvP, and explored as an allegiance. We were great in-game friends, and I have never felt a stronger connection. These developers had fully developed a deep, complex, and living world. The skill system in this game was amazing and the crafting was a challenge. When you died, you would lose lots of precious items encouraging you to recover your corpse, often causing you to ask guild-members to come help. This formed memories, bonds, and an experience like no other.
Now, to Star Wars Galaxies.
SWG was by far THE MOST fun and best experience in an MMO I've ever had. Period. Everything about it was truly a gem. I played Pre-NGE up until a year before the death of this game. The options in this game were infinite, the community and the crafting was pure perfection, and the freedom was like no other. Am I speaking from Nostalgia? No. If i could repurchase the game today and it was alive, in fact, if it was alive at all I would still be playing. Pre-NGE leveling skills, creating your own combat style and experiencing the world was awesome.
I also played Runescape.
This game was by far, the most unique I've ever played. It stemmed from me playing back in the '06 days, taking a year break then playing again up until 2010-11. It offered a truly unique and fun playstyle. You could level skills, create a combat style based on what skills you level and obtain certain gears also based on your skills. PvP/PKing was especially fun due to the high risk and reward factors, and the fact that you yourself were a truly unique character playing against others who are also truly unique. This game was a blast. The hell of a grind made the rewards and community only so much more sweet.
So, the moral of the story is, if a modern MMOrpg tried embracing the mechanics of old, but with more polish and enhancements, rather than just deny the old mechanics and keep revamping what has always been loved. And none of this would be accomplished without P2P. Having a cash-shop wrecks the immersion and an F2P without a cash-shop could just simply not achieve what these games would require.
The MMOrpg genre is designed for the patient, curious, adventurous, ambitious gamers. The type of players who like to socialize, explore, and achieve self-set goals. It is factually not designed to be hopped-between and played solo. MMORPG's are the outlet for exploration and adventure not churning through quest after quest, and that is ultimately what these modern MMORPG's are designed for, all in the name of greed and money, not ambition.
-as a side note, I have played many, many other MMO's as well, but these made the largest impression on my gaming career.
Thanks for reading.
Ashron's Call was a MMORPG, not a MMO.... perhaps that is why so many people are not playing MMORPG's, because there are not any good ones at the moment.
They are all non-roleplaying games..
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Entropy always increases. And old gamers keep getting older. And the Good Ole Dayz never come back.
That should about cover the G.O.D. topics for the week?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Entropy always increases. And old gamers keep getting older. And the Good Ole Dayz never come back.
That should about cover the G.O.D. topics for the week?
Quality and scope of the games never got better over the last 10 years. These Developers almost pushed the adults (w/money) out of the marketplace, as they pursue the easy cheap games for whales.
I am quite sure that a Developer will come along and charge $50 for a Premium MMORPG, with real GM's and give a premium experience. And these kids will still beat their heads, screaming they shouldn't make one, because they can't afford it.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Comments
First of all, MOBAs are not mmorpgs, at all. Destiny and division looks fresh but I dont know if they are mmorpgs also, and they are for consoles. TSW has new setting, but I wasnt talking about setting, TSW is very traditional mmorpg with same mechanics gameplay wise.
But yeah, we are getting something fresh apparently soon enough. GW2 kinda was, but it's full of systems I dont like, no factions, no open world pvp, standard like questing systems camouflaged... Dont get me wrong, I like what Anet did, they tried something different, and they kind did, but they also did a lot of things I dont like, exploring that is based on already marked locations on map, heavy zoning, instead of quests quest like quest areas, semi-tab target combat etc etc, it's not a bad game, it just did not feel right for me, but they did do some things different and at least it felt fresh if not optimal for me.
If being on a console means something isn't an MMORPG, FF11 isn't an MMORPG and neither is DUST 514.
And boy do I have some bad news for you come November of this year and beyond; how many MMORPGs are the next-gen consoles getting?
I'm surprised people are saying 'we haven't gotten new MMOs' when I see plenty of them.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
What MMO do these "market researchers" use for their data? Is there a well made "old style" MMORPG for them to even look at? Or are they only looking at the new-fangled Play and done MMOs we have today and seeing their success, "assuming" that an older, deeper MMORPG would not work. Please do not cite EverQuest or Ultima Online, as these old school games are not anything like they used to be.
Nobody today knows if a well made old style MMORPG would be successful. Nobody is willing to try. Until one is published, we will never know.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Oh no no no, I'm not saying a game is not a mmorpg if it's for consoles, it was just a personal preference, I dont do consoles. I dont know much about console mmorpgs and I dont look into them since I dont play console games, they can be mmorpgs sure, just not my territory, I could have been more clear on that sorry about that.
So these new MMO's are succesfull? are we looking at the same games? you know the ones wich have to Go F2P or else they would die out. I don't really see any succesfull MMo's since WoW. They would have remained sub based games if they where succesfull enough.
People would pay monthly for a game they deem worthy.
Since when did Dust 514 became an MMO? IT a FPS linked to an MMO. there's no MMO anywhere near it.
I'm looking at the ones that have released expansions, more content and have 50-500k subs with millions of active f2p players.
So after some retooling where they spent more than was reasonable to expect from a sub based game, yep. They are almost all pretty successfull.
50-500k subs is no longer considered enough subs by the company to recoup the cost. So they either go f2p to get more money or the don't cost as much to build. Likely they'll do both.
All I have to say is, when people pull out the "rose-colored glasses" card, those games must have been doing something right: people played them for years.
It is common to hear people say: "I played UO/SWG/AC/DAOC/AO for years when it first came out....". So they must have been a reason for that. There was more to do in those games? No themepark to blow through and be bored? No easy mode? Better communities? Gamers? Or that they were just better games.
These days? Most people quit in the first couple months, post launch.
So, games people played for years, or ones people quit in a month?
Seems to me that speaks for itself.
And they did.
However just as many people (50-500k subs) are playing these games for years too (the ones that have been out for years). So they must be doing something right as well.
Tell that to all the people that made TOR and found themselves in the unemployment line.
They allready know it.
Tor themselves stated 500k subs adn 1.7 million active f2p players. They just made the mistake of thinking they would get more subs than is reasonable (only a few have every broken the 500k mark) and so built a super expensive game for it.
once again, people fail to realize that these companies making these new mmorpgs are making PLENTY of money. just because you don't think their games are successful, does not mean that they are not laughing all the way to the bank, wondering why you guys still pay subs and spend 20$ on fluff in cash shops. just to rage-quit a month later...
Who said anything about all new MMOs being successful? 80% of everything is crap. This remains true of MMORPG releases.
We haven't seen runaway successes like WOW, but most of these games are financially sound investments with moderate profitability. Going F2P really is just a matter of, "Gosh, should we press the 2x Revenue Button? Maybe we should. We're a business, after all." It really has little to do with whether or not people would pay monthly, and everything to do with the fact that the game is going to make more as F2P. I assure you, game teams are not sitting at home chewing their fingernails over the fact that they pressed the 2x Revenue Button and are now raking in twice as much money.
Certainly there's a discussion to be had about whether MMORPGs specifically can remain fun longterm with a F2P system, and whether the game's shop sells flexibility, content, and vanity (acceptable "lateral" purchases), or whether it sells victory (fun-depriving "vertical" purchases.)
Certainly there's a discussion about how MMORPGs, by nature of being large projects, are risk-averse and thus almost cripplingly light on innovation.
Certainly there's a discussion about how MMORPGs fail to offer the correct spread of challenges, instead offering a single difficulty option which many consider too easy.
But I don't think there's really a question over whether modern games are successful.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
This is true. Mmorpg-younglings need to differentiate a mmorpg and a simple online game that is, or that is not, attached a real online or even mmo-game. No insult intented, there just is a huge difference.
Sometimes you can't see that it is nostalgia, when it actually is. You can't say yourself that you don't have it, because the whole point of it is you don't always realize. Don't act like a know it all, because it will be hard for you to make decent discussion with that mentality.
You generalize to much, while you played a certain type of games, a very specific type. At the same time there were other games, that you maybe tried or maybe not. Modern mmo's do embrace mechanics of old mmo's, only not the ones you liked. There were two ways in which genre could have evolved, and it naturally went in the other direction than you expected due to a higher demand in that specific direction.
Your niche is just something developers don't want to touch for many reasons, one being that a specific kind of people like it (including you), and it is a minority, that would not return the production money no matter how small the project is.
Some day I wish some indie mmo with features you like would finally come out, because so far it is just not enough of a hint for you that they are all dying before even being released, so for once it could at least survive until release and then die, so maybe you will finally see how pointless it is.
It does not. There are way too many other factors that you have to take into consideration. It is like saying that new cars are much worse than the old cars, because old cars didn't cause so much deaths. Well, old cars didn't have fatal accidents not because they were better, they didn't have fatal accidents because the speed was to low to kill anyone and there were few thousand drivers not millions.... Funny I have to give so obvious example, but it is right on spot.
The nature of gaming changed, the expectations of players changed, the amount of players changed, social groups playing games changed, age variations between gamers changed, times changed, technology changed, just to name few of many factors.
And you are comparing this completely new environment to the old one and saying that what worked in the old one would definately work in new one and that new one is not working because it is not like the old one. Ignoring the huge and incredibly important factors that I just wrote... not a great way of thinking.
People "these days" quit after month because it is "these days", and not the "old times".
It is easy to blame game, while it is just you.
I find it odd that a thread titled 'reality' doesn't have a single fact or figure to reference and only deals with the OP's opinion on said games.
Also this quote is just mind bogglingly arrogant;
The MMOrpg genre is designed for the patient, curious, adventurous, ambitious gamers. The type of players who like to socialize, explore, and achieve self-set goals. It is factually not designed to be hopped-between and played solo.
Cause obviously those who want to play MMOs as a casual solo-friendly way should not play MMOs. /Sarcasm
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
to be honest. the only games I revisit years later are Warcraft titles (mainly WC3) or 'Elder Scrolls'.
no other game franchises have grabbed me more than those. but I imagine that a couple years from now, I will still find joy in some of the good games that have come out recently, mainly Dark Souls, and some of the surprisingly fun indie games that I have accumulated on steam.
as far as MMO's go, only WoW and EQ2 have ever given me reasons to resub and its been a while for those two as well. future plans of playing again are- never.
so in conclusion, none of the games I plan on revisiting (or play years from now) are MMO's. Not a single one. why? because MMO's are PYRAMID SCAMS. they offer low-quality expereince compared to 'SOME' single players games and charge way more for it. in fact, they don't STOP charging you. and people claim that this unending pricetag is a show of 'quality'? seriously, pull your head out of your ass. as stated above, GW2 proved that subs are just a scam, but many 'self-proclaimed- old-school-gamers' like to ignore that.
enjoy feeding money to the same people that you claim are ripping you off by making inferior games. the mentaility of the people complaining are the same idiots that shell out 60$ plus 15$ a month for a game that they were never that interested in, just so they have some ground to stand on when they come to MMORPG.com to cry about it in efforts to pretend that their voice means a damn.
MMO's that I found worthy of my time and money, at least for the duration of my stay. I'll even include why-
WoW- like many (most?) Warcraft RTS fans, i had to try it. and i loved it for a few years too. i still have love for the game, even if i don't like some of the changes and stopped playing. more than anything, i just outgrew tab-targeting mechanics or i would still be an on/off player.
City of Villans - (could never roll a hero for long) the character creator was amazing. abilities also seemed unique compared to playing fantasy games, which is what i prefer. oh yeah... flying was awesome.
EQ2 - I love Neriak, the dark elves, and the Arasi (evil fae). a lot really. that said, i spent more time in EQ2 coming up with creative ways to manipulate furniture than I spent on anything else. A LOT of time.
GW2 - the tab-tageting mixed with twitch-combat made the combat tolerable, but what i really liked was the community and how easy it was to play with others and find similar goals without steping on each others toes. but more than anything, i played because i loved my Mezmer dual-wield sword build very much.
there are at least a dozen other MMO's that I've tried, but those are the ones i look back fondly on. Each for a different reason. so while they were all very similar games, they had aspects that made them standout.
So games that get some funding and end up launching, Mortal Online, Xyson, etc that are total garbage to many people yet could of funded a similar game to SWG or AC1? Funding is available if a team wants to make it. The problem is no team wants to make it as financially it is quicker and cheaper to make a POS market the ingame store and make quick cash by the younger crowd.
MMOs are no different now than whatever random Movie tie-in game is available for the most part. Market research doesn't dictate enough that there wouldn't be a viable product financially. What it dictates right now is its easier to make a APP for one of the iOS systems, sell it to craploads of people and make millions in return all in a few months time. Games as a whole are dying as their cost to produce does not correlate to the ridiculous amount that those return.
The other problem is people and companies think on WOW terms. It was an anomaly. A Fluke. Right place, right time. Fortunately or unfortunately until it closes down completely your going to still have a large mass of people playing that taking away from other games. As soon as another game becomes a time sink and not as "fun" or on par with WOW, they jump ship back to it.
Its almost like what EA is doing with BF franchise releasing games at lightning speed as its easier for them to make money like CoD with Activision Blizzard or whatever the new official name is.
I am not seeing what's so wrong with what this post is complaining about.
Demand / Supply, free-market etc.
Working as intended.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Im sorry but this quote is a great summary of what the mmorpg genre used to be about. Most of these games we have today might be viewed as mmorpg's but lack the very basics of what defined an mmorpg. It is now about cheap thrills and quick cash; but you either enjoy whats out or dont play at all. Thank god ffxiv was released.
I'm sure it'll work though /sarcasm
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
First of all what is wrong with being financially safe, and easy money? Are you telling me that you would be the great samaritan, that would take the hard way and sacrifice his possible income for others? Wouldn't it be better to just earn s**t load of money and give them for your family, or to charity, than to waste them on a bunch of old gamers that will complain no matter how good the final product is? Unless you are willing to risk your own job just to satisfy a small group of other people you don't know, you have no rights to expect other people to do the same.
And there were plenty of attempts to make niche games, and few of them on Kickstarter. Some are even now, if you bother to search for them. And yes, they do fail to gather funds, and disappear from the web as fast and sudden as they appeared. You don't see them, because if they don't manage to collect the money, they are just removed from funding site/their own website. And don't be so bold to tell that someone should take any risk for you.
Market research is the only thing that any sane company should use in planing, not some forum ranting, or personal feelings.
It is funny as I see no adventure, or ambition in FFXIV, so it is once again only an opinion of arogant player that thinks the game is good because he is in it, and that the game is ultimately smarter and more clever than other games, because he with his great mind finds it so.Ashron's Call was a MMORPG, not a MMO.... perhaps that is why so many people are not playing MMORPG's, because there are not any good ones at the moment.
They are all non-roleplaying games..
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
Entropy always increases. And old gamers keep getting older. And the Good Ole Dayz never come back.
That should about cover the G.O.D. topics for the week?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Quality and scope of the games never got better over the last 10 years. These Developers almost pushed the adults (w/money) out of the marketplace, as they pursue the easy cheap games for whales.
I am quite sure that a Developer will come along and charge $50 for a Premium MMORPG, with real GM's and give a premium experience. And these kids will still beat their heads, screaming they shouldn't make one, because they can't afford it.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon