Mostly agree, but you lost me with SWG. That's a different species altogether.
SWG players didn't have rose-colored glasses to take off. They had rose-colored lenses grafted on to their corneas. Those are never coming off.
People that love to craft and create their own cities in SWG loved the game (like me) and those who were mostly combat hated it...but like it or not SWG was a brilliant game that had some flaws and I wish it were still around. It was simply the most fun I ever had in an MMO.
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
Entropy always increases. And old gamers keep getting older. And the Good Ole Dayz never come back.
That should about cover the G.O.D. topics for the week?
Quality and scope of the games never got better over the last 10 years. These Developers almost pushed the adults (w/money) out of the marketplace, as they pursue the easy cheap games for whales.
I am quite sure that a Developer will come along and charge $50 for a Premium MMORPG, with real GM's and give a premium experience. And these kids will still beat their heads, screaming they shouldn't make one, because they can't afford it.
There is nothing correct in what you wrote.
Pushing adults out? If you look at any statistics at all, from any possible source, and there are many independent sources that done the research, you will see, that adults dominate in todays mmo's demography even more than ever in the last 10 years. So where did you pull out your facts from?
Quality never got better over last 10 years? I won't even comment on that.
And another assumption that expensive game automatically equals mature community, which is wrong on many levels. Since kids are minority in mmorpgs now, and most of the bad behaviour you see in games is actually made by adult people that are far away from being mature, but like to claim they are, and put themselves higher than everyone else. While I know many kids that play games, that are more civilized, smart and mature than many adults. Thinking in stereotypes is for old people, that refuse to learn and develop themselves, because they already think they know it all. I would even argue how much influence on bad social aspect of game have grumpy old men that play those games and keep complaining and demanding, and having the mentality "I want what I paid for damn you".
Originally posted by echolynfan
Originally posted by grimgryphon
Mostly agree, but you lost me with SWG. That's a different species altogether.
SWG players didn't have rose-colored glasses to take off. They had rose-colored lenses grafted on to their corneas. Those are never coming off.
People that love to craft and create their own cities in SWG loved the game (like me) and those who were mostly combat hated it...but like it or now SWG was a brilliant game that had some flaws and I wish it were still around. It was simply the most fun I ever had in an MMO.
Yet the game failed, and while you can keep saying anything you want about why it failed and that it wasn't fault of the original mechanics etc. it is only an opinion and there is no possible way to prove why the game really failed and if it would fail or not if it kept it's original form. No one will know that, and the only certain thing is that it failed.
Yet the game failed, and while you can keep saying anything you want about why it failed and that it wasn't fault of the original mechanics etc. it is only an opinion and there is no possible way to prove why the game really failed and if it would fail or not if it kept it's original form. No one will know that, and the only certain thing is that it failed.
SWG failed at what?
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I am quite sure that a Developer will come along and charge $50 for a Premium MMORPG, with real GM's and give a premium experience. And these kids will still beat their heads, screaming they shouldn't make one, because they can't afford it.
The futility and frustration, it's all *their* fault.
/stamp feet
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Entropy always increases. And old gamers keep getting older. And the Good Ole Dayz never come back.
That should about cover the G.O.D. topics for the week?
Quality and scope of the games never got better over the last 10 years. These Developers almost pushed the adults (w/money) out of the marketplace, as they pursue the easy cheap games for whales.
I am quite sure that a Developer will come along and charge $50 for a Premium MMORPG, with real GM's and give a premium experience. And these kids will still beat their heads, screaming they shouldn't make one, because they can't afford it.
There is nothing correct in what you wrote.
Pushing adults out? If you look at any statistics at all, from any possible source, and there are many independent sources that done the research, you will see, that adults dominate in todays mmo's demography even more than ever in the last 10 years. So where did you pull out your facts from?
Quality never got better over last 10 years? I won't even comment on that.
And another assumption that expensive game automatically equals mature community, which is wrong on many levels. Since kids are minority in mmorpgs now, and most of the bad behaviour you see in games is actually made by adult people that are far away from being mature, but like to claim they are, and put themselves higher than everyone else. While I know many kids that play games, that are more civilized, smart and mature than many adults. Thinking in stereotypes is for old people, that refuse to learn and develop themselves, because they already think they know it all. I would even argue how much influence on bad social aspect of game have grumpy old men that play those games and keep complaining and demanding, and having the mentality "I want what I paid for damn you".
Originally posted by echolynfan
Originally posted by grimgryphon
Mostly agree, but you lost me with SWG. That's a different species altogether.
SWG players didn't have rose-colored glasses to take off. They had rose-colored lenses grafted on to their corneas. Those are never coming off.
People that love to craft and create their own cities in SWG loved the game (like me) and those who were mostly combat hated it...but like it or now SWG was a brilliant game that had some flaws and I wish it were still around. It was simply the most fun I ever had in an MMO.
Yet the game failed, and while you can keep saying anything you want about why it failed and that it wasn't fault of the original mechanics etc. it is only an opinion and there is no possible way to prove why the game really failed and if it would fail or not if it kept it's original form. No one will know that, and the only certain thing is that it failed.
The game 's reputation was damaged by SOE's NGE fiasco but the main reason it's plug was pulled was SOE didn't want to renew it's IP contract with LucasArts which was probably too much. There would still be people playing if it wasn't for that...myself included.
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
Yet the game failed, and while you can keep saying anything you want about why it failed and that it wasn't fault of the original mechanics etc. it is only an opinion and there is no possible way to prove why the game really failed and if it would fail or not if it kept it's original form. No one will know that, and the only certain thing is that it failed.
SWG failed at what?
It was closed.
Originally posted by echolynfan
The game 's reputation was damaged by SOE's NGE fiasco but the main reason it's plug was pulled was SOE didn't want to renew it's IP contract with LucasArts which was probably too much. There would still be people playing if it wasn't for that...myself included.
You can be never 100% sure if it would still be running if they didn't do that mistake, but ok, fair enough.
All other considerations of whether SWG was a "failure" or not, on the financial side, it paid for itself several times over, even before the dreaded NGE. I am sure plenty of other companies would only be too happy to suffer such "failures".
And that aside, SWG provided several game systems that even most critics acknowledge were at the top of what the MMO genre has ever produced (crafting, player economy, support for multiple playstyles) before the NGE, at least. Like it or hate, SWG was its own thing, and that is why people still talk about it.
Originally posted by jpnz I don't care what it used to be about. Advocating that certain players shouldn't play a genre of games is awful. I'm sure it'll work though /sarcasm
If you don't like cheese don't eat cheese, don't cry and whine for someone to make an apple flavored type of cheese because you like apples.
There is a defined system of mechanics in the MMORPG genre that has just been blurred and thrown away over time because every one kicks and screams their way into the genre asking for it to revolve around them. If you don't like the adventure, social aspect and open world of the MMORPG genre then go play another type of genre, just get out of our genre.
Another anology, If you like first person shooters, and fast paced combat, don't play a strategy game, DEFINITELY don't go on the strategy game forums and whine that it isn't first person and fast paced!
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here.... just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio. Thank you for your patience.
Originally posted by jpnz I don't care what it used to be about. Advocating that certain players shouldn't play a genre of games is awful. I'm sure it'll work though /sarcasm
If you don't like cheese don't eat cheese, don't cry and whine for someone to make an apple flavored type of cheese because you like apples.
There is a defined system of mechanics in the MMORPG genre that has just been blurred and thrown away over time because every one kicks and screams their way into the genre asking for it to revolve around them. If you don't like the adventure, social aspect and open world of the MMORPG genre then go play another type of genre, just get out of our genre.
Another anology, If you like first person shooters, and fast paced combat, don't play a strategy game, DEFINITELY don't go on the strategy game forums and whine that it isn't first person and fast paced!
This post makes no sense. I would suggest you look up words like supply, demand, free market to understand why MMOs have changed / are changing like they are. Whether you like those changes or not is irreverent.
If we follow this logic, we would only have vanilla ice cream which would be awful as strawberry ice cream is clearly superior than plain-old-vanilla.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Cause it sure as hell wasn't in grouping, they all let you solo. It might have been possible to solo some content, but it wasn't rewarded. In EQ (before they tried to make it easier to compete with wowish games) you couldn't do all that much solo, except for a couple of classes. Really nothing high level. You were encouraged to group by better loot, more xp, etc. Modern games give equal rewards for solo so most don't bother to group.
It wasn't it hard or challenging content, because most of the games then had both easy and hard content. You can't be serious, if you think todays games have the same challenge as EQ or UO. In EO you couldn't even travel through most zones with out attracting mobs that could kill you if you made a mistake, and adding on until you had half the zone chasing you. I can't remember the last game where you could stroll around without attracting any mobs with very little effort. Another challenge was the time you had to put in to achieve things-levels/xp took more than a week to max, gear took commitment with guild, etc.
It wasn't in death penalites because there was a great variety of that in old games. They might not have been the same but they were much more severe than anything lately.
So what were those systems that defined MMORPG back then?
I think it was just the capability of having a lot of people in the world that you could interact with... the same as now.
That is just one thing that the genre has in common. I'm not saying things shouldn't change or that there is only one way mmos should be, but you have to admit that games have become, simpler and less challenging over the years, and for those that like a challenge, it grows tiresome to see every game that comes out having in common is simplicity.
What I see in the modern market is that every dev/company thinks if they pander to the single-player, solo content devouring market, they will hit a home run, and outside of WoW they mostly strike out. Those players will lose interest and move to newer game as soon as they max level 2 toons in 2 months. They should shoot for a double or triple with a demographic that will actually stay with the game for years. Time consuming content thats fun, encourage grouping and other community building mechanics, don't try to water everything down for mainstream, but choose systems that will attract, and keep, certain player base. Modernize the older mechanics that fit this, add the newer ideas that fit as well. Having $15/mo, box and expansions from 500k + for 5-10 years beats having 1 million buying box, getting their one free month and jumping ship.
Originally posted by jpnz I don't care what it used to be about. Advocating that certain players shouldn't play a genre of games is awful. I'm sure it'll work though /sarcasm
If you don't like cheese don't eat cheese, don't cry and whine for someone to make an apple flavored type of cheese because you like apples.
There is a defined system of mechanics in the MMORPG genre that has just been blurred and thrown away over time because every one kicks and screams their way into the genre asking for it to revolve around them. If you don't like the adventure, social aspect and open world of the MMORPG genre then go play another type of genre, just get out of our genre.
Another anology, If you like first person shooters, and fast paced combat, don't play a strategy game, DEFINITELY don't go on the strategy game forums and whine that it isn't first person and fast paced!
This post makes no sense. I would suggest you look up words like supply, demand, free market to understand why MMOs have changed / are changing like they are. Whether you like those changes or not is irreverent.
If we follow this logic, we would only have vanilla ice cream which would be awful as strawberry ice cream is clearly superior than plain-old-vanilla.
You seem to have completely missed their point, which is a shame, because it's a very true one.
They're describing the very mentality that helped get the genre to where it is now... a whole lot of different MMOs, all built around the same 2 or 3 cookie-cutter templates.
When this genre went mainstream, it brought in many people who had never played a MMO. Some didn't even know what a MMO was. When WoW hit the scene, many people had no idea it was something called a MMORPG. All they knew was that Blizzard was putting out a new Warcraft game, that it was online and multiplayer and they culd play with other people.
Beyond that, they expected it to be "just another game", much like all the others they'd played. And that's where the problems began. When they realized that WoW was different.. It wasn't like Warcraft 3. It wasn't like Diablo II... It wasn't like all those other offline, or even limited multiplayer games they were used to.
This "MMORPG" thing was different, and they didn't like it.
They refused to accept it. Over the next several years, they proceeded to increasingly kick, stomp and shout to have these new games changed to be more like the ones they were used to playing.
Instead of an on-going adventure with no end, they wanted a defined "end"; a "finish line". Since a MMO doesn't have one, they adopted "End Game" and "Level Cap" as a surrogate. Instead of a long journey that could last years, they wanted to get to "the end" and through it all in a matter of weeks... even days.
They didn't want to explore and experience a vast virtual world. They wanted to "beat the game", so they could move on to the next. And you see that behavior quite prominently these days in the form of MMO-hopping.
Now, because the big companies developing these games care about one thing and one thing only: $$$$$$, they did their best to meet the players' demands. And so, MMOs have become increasingly easier, more shallow, less vast, more linear, less "open", and with absurd amounts of hand-holding. It's almost like many developers are afraid to ever let players have to figure anything out themselves... as though they'd get bored and play something else instead if they ever had to slow down for 1 minute to think about something or figure something out on their own. Sad thing is, gamers are only too ready (even if they don't realize it) to prove that notion true.
The MMO genre is a shadow of its former self,and this is largely due to people doing exactly what DrCokePepsi describes: people going into one type of game, and demanding it be changed to be more like another. Rather than adapt and expand their gamin vistas to include different styles of gameplay, they want everything to play like everything else.
What was once a narrower, but much deeper genre of games, has become a much wider, but immensely more shallow one, with very few still maintaining the brilliance it once had.
Well written but if have to disagree I myself DONT want to go back to any style of the old games . I more look forward to what they can bring out with new Graphics and new ideas.
I have argued over the years for a return to old school MMO values. But I see it as creating a hybrid out of what we have now with what we have then. Not that many of us want corpse runs back for example.
The biggest areas of concern are the ease of getting to top level, the ability to solo your way to the top and more recently the pay to win ethos brought in by cash shops.
If you have not seen runescape lately (last 6 months). I'd suggest coming back for another go of it.
Big updates quick list:
1) Free trade and old wildy is back (for good, they gave players the choice on it).... that's the only one that hasn't happened in about the last 6 months. but that you may not know about.
2)The combat system has been updated (it's more like modern ability based systems now. But, it requires very good timing, Knowing your prey and gearing accordingly (mobs have general weakness and specific weakness now, and so do you...they always did. but it's more enhanced and makes the game a lot less melee centric, and it's a lot more entertaining too.).
3)We also have a new interface that has a pretty deep level of customization (even presets you can save different setups to for doing different kinds of things).
4) Got a new -freakin amazing- version of the game live with the old java client (it's HTML5, you need to have google chrome currently to use it and and good gaming machine...like i5core 8gb ram kinda thing).
5) tons of areas got huge visual updates. There have been new huge quests such as "While Guthix Sleeps" and the one that ushered in the 6th age "The world Wakes". Plus a bunch of the old f2p quests have been remade with more in depth storylines and activities and rewards from scratch...and just more new quests, new quest, new quests.
6) And speaking of the 6th age and lore update...guthix = dead, lumbrdige = ruins. big arse crater. Turns out gods are really huge. Saradomin and Zamorak Duking it out over what is basically guthix carcass now that his edicts barring gods from the world are gone. Players actions in the world event currently ongoing and future ones this year will decide the course of the game (who knows could all look like wildy in a year from now...or taverly *shrugs*)
7) And they got the guy who did jurrasic park music (or harry potter or both... forget what they said bout that exactly) to re-do most their tracks as high def full symphonic compositions.
8) You can give your loyalty to your god of choice (the minor or major ones). which earns you god related goodies. or you can basically ignore that content....or side with the godless faction.
9) new skill as of i think bout' a week ago called divination. It's a little raw but there is still a lot too it.
10) newish big activity/mingame called player owned ports.
11) new skill coming later this year (no real details yet but it will tied to divination).
12) new boss's...1 of which there is no possibility of soloing (on your own you'd have to take a 50k hit to get in the fight with him. so not possible to solo)
If you have not seen runescape lately (last 6 months). I'd suggest coming back for another go of it.
zomgyes. Runescape has an incredible amount of content. Recently returned after seven or eight years away and it's a completely different game with more content than I even know what to do with.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Cause it sure as hell wasn't in grouping, they all let you solo. It might have been possible to solo some content, but it wasn't rewarded. In EQ (before they tried to make it easier to compete with wowish games) you couldn't do all that much solo, except for a couple of classes. Really nothing high level. You were encouraged to group by better loot, more xp, etc. Modern games give equal rewards for solo so most don't bother to group.
It wasn't it hard or challenging content, because most of the games then had both easy and hard content. You can't be serious, if you think todays games have the same challenge as EQ or UO. In EO you couldn't even travel through most zones with out attracting mobs that could kill you if you made a mistake, and adding on until you had half the zone chasing you. I can't remember the last game where you could stroll around without attracting any mobs with very little effort. Another challenge was the time you had to put in to achieve things-levels/xp took more than a week to max, gear took commitment with guild, etc.
It wasn't in death penalites because there was a great variety of that in old games. They might not have been the same but they were much more severe than anything lately.
So what were those systems that defined MMORPG back then?
I think it was just the capability of having a lot of people in the world that you could interact with... the same as now.
That is just one thing that the genre has in common. I'm not saying things shouldn't change or that there is only one way mmos should be, but you have to admit that games have become, simpler and less challenging over the years, and for those that like a challenge, it grows tiresome to see every game that comes out having in common is simplicity.
What I see in the modern market is that every dev/company thinks if they pander to the single-player, solo content devouring market, they will hit a home run, and outside of WoW they mostly strike out. Those players will lose interest and move to newer game as soon as they max level 2 toons in 2 months. They should shoot for a double or triple with a demographic that will actually stay with the game for years. Time consuming content thats fun, encourage grouping and other community building mechanics, don't try to water everything down for mainstream, but choose systems that will attract, and keep, certain player base. Modernize the older mechanics that fit this, add the newer ideas that fit as well. Having $15/mo, box and expansions from 500k + for 5-10 years beats having 1 million buying box, getting their one free month and jumping ship.
Almost half the classes in original EQ could solo, but that doesn't answer the question. EQ was one game of 5 or 6, and even in UO soloing could be done very well, same with AC so I'm told. So the point remains in the original games soloing or grouping was not a defining system.
Same with the other points there are raids today in WoW that almost no one has done. Old games had a lot of easy parts to them as well, do you deny this? So once again there were easy and hard parts in old games, and once again EQ was one game of 5 or 6. So how hard the game was was not a defining system of MMO's.
So here is the question again since it was not answered. What were the defining systems?
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by Helleri @OPIf you have not seen runescape lately (last 6 months). I'd suggest coming back for another go of it.Big updates quick list: 1) Free trade and old wildy is back (for good, they gave players the choice on it).... that's the only one that hasn't happened in about the last 6 months. but that you may not know about. 2)The combat system has been updated (it's more like modern ability based systems now. But, it requires very good timing, Knowing your prey and gearing accordingly (mobs have general weakness and specific weakness now, and so do you...they always did. but it's more enhanced and makes the game a lot less melee centric, and it's a lot more entertaining too.). 3)We also have a new interface that has a pretty deep level of customization (even presets you can save different setups to for doing different kinds of things). 4) Got a new -freakin amazing- version of the game live with the old java client (it's HTML5, you need to have google chrome currently to use it and and good gaming machine...like i5core 8gb ram kinda thing). 5) tons of areas got huge visual updates. There have been new huge quests such as "While Guthix Sleeps" and the one that ushered in the 6th age "The world Wakes". Plus a bunch of the old f2p quests have been remade with more in depth storylines and activities and rewards from scratch...and just more new quests, new quest, new quests. 6) And speaking of the 6th age and lore update...guthix = dead, lumbrdige = ruins. big arse crater. Turns out gods are really huge. Saradomin and Zamorak Duking it out over what is basically guthix carcass now that his edicts barring gods from the world are gone. Players actions in the world event currently ongoing and future ones this year will decide the course of the game (who knows could all look like wildy in a year from now...or taverly *shrugs*) 7) And they got the guy who did jurrasic park music (or harry potter or both... forget what they said bout that exactly) to re-do most their tracks as high def full symphonic compositions. 8) You can give your loyalty to your god of choice (the minor or major ones). which earns you god related goodies. or you can basically ignore that content....or side with the godless faction. 9) new skill as of i think bout' a week ago called divination. It's a little raw but there is still a lot too it. 10) newish big activity/mingame called player owned ports. 11) new skill coming later this year (no real details yet but it will tied to divination). 12) new boss's...1 of which there is no possibility of soloing (on your own you'd have to take a 50k hit to get in the fight with him. so not possible to solo)
I simply don't like the direction the game is going with it's cash-shop and the squeal of fortune. Those hurt my immersion too much because you have to grind for hours just to get a set of armor slightly better than the last (which im fine with, its rewarding) but then someone blows 20 bucks on the squeal or the cash shop and they have a fiery cat pet and ridiculous looking armor for no work at all. I'm dissapointed that way. Also, the game changes far too much, I like constant updates and content addition, but theres not even a resemblance to what the game used to be even a few months ago. Things are being taken out and changed far too unpredictably for me to want to put hours into my account. I used to appreciate the game now its just too unpredictable.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here.... just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio. Thank you for your patience.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Originally posted by ropeniceOriginally posted by VengeSunsoarWhat were those defined systems? Cause it sure as hell wasn't in grouping, they all let you solo. It might have been possible to solo some content, but it wasn't rewarded. In EQ (before they tried to make it easier to compete with wowish games) you couldn't do all that much solo, except for a couple of classes. Really nothing high level. You were encouraged to group by better loot, more xp, etc. Modern games give equal rewards for solo so most don't bother to group. It wasn't it hard or challenging content, because most of the games then had both easy and hard content. You can't be serious, if you think todays games have the same challenge as EQ or UO. In EO you couldn't even travel through most zones with out attracting mobs that could kill you if you made a mistake, and adding on until you had half the zone chasing you. I can't remember the last game where you could stroll around without attracting any mobs with very little effort. Another challenge was the time you had to put in to achieve things-levels/xp took more than a week to max, gear took commitment with guild, etc. It wasn't in death penalites because there was a great variety of that in old games. They might not have been the same but they were much more severe than anything lately. So what were those systems that defined MMORPG back then? I think it was just the capability of having a lot of people in the world that you could interact with... the same as now.
That is just one thing that the genre has in common. I'm not saying things shouldn't change or that there is only one way mmos should be, but you have to admit that games have become, simpler and less challenging over the years, and for those that like a challenge, it grows tiresome to see every game that comes out having in common is simplicity. What I see in the modern market is that every dev/company thinks if they pander to the single-player, solo content devouring market, they will hit a home run, and outside of WoW they mostly strike out. Those players will lose interest and move to newer game as soon as they max level 2 toons in 2 months. They should shoot for a double or triple with a demographic that will actually stay with the game for years. Time consuming content thats fun, encourage grouping and other community building mechanics, don't try to water everything down for mainstream, but choose systems that will attract, and keep, certain player base. Modernize the older mechanics that fit this, add the newer ideas that fit as well. Having $15/mo, box and expansions from 500k + for 5-10 years beats having 1 million buying box, getting their one free month and jumping ship.Almost half the classes in original EQ could solo, but that doesn't answer the question. EQ was one game of 5 or 6, and even in UO soloing could be done very well, same with AC so I'm told. So the point remains in the original games soloing or grouping was not a defining system.
Same with the other points there are raids today in WoW that almost no one has done. Old games had a lot of easy parts to them as well, do you deny this? So once again there were easy and hard parts in old games, and once again EQ was one game of 5 or 6. So how hard the game was was not a defining system of MMO's.
So here is the question again since it was not answered. What were the defining systems?
Those sytems were freedom, creating a second identity, and all that in a living breathing WORLD to explore. GW2 for example since everyone loves it so much, is completely linear, your forced region to region which is instanced by the way. You're character follows a class that couldnt be unique if you tried, and the world isn't even close to living and breathing. You have no effect on the environment, you can't own a house, you cant climb up that mountain in the far distance, the 'events' everyone loves to call so unique aren't revolutionary whatsoever, it's just a more annoying version of a quest-chain, but at spontaneous times. And end-game is just collecting a few specific sets of dungeon-gear, doing the living world, or repeating WvW over and over.
I'll refer to SWG for this one as I believe it was a good example of how the genre was designed. In SWG you could just build a house anywhere. If you wanted to fly with a jetpack, cool. You want to fly in space? Awesome. Own a city? Here's the plans. Go play music with a holographic band? People will tip you if you play in a cantina. Ride a lizard? Of course, or you could drive a land speeder. Guild wars 2? Instantly teleport everywhere because that is what the industry has come down to.
See what I'm saying? Now you can reply and try to prove me wrong with a technical answer, and tell me what games has these mechanics, how great the industry is now and go well so and so does this, or this does that, but I can't argue back because I can't describe what the feeling of freedom is in an mmo over the computer. Ofc, Wurm offers ultimate freedom, i played that a wee bit, the gameplay is clunky and horrendous to me, not my personal cup of tea but i can see why you would enjoy it. Yes, Asheron's Call and Ultima Online still exist, But i shouldnt HAVE to play JUST those 2 anymore, I've grown tired of them....after YEARS and thats what you all seem to not understand, none of these real MMORPG's are being made anymore.
The real, genuine, MMORPG community wants new games, but we ask for them and the F2P army comes and stomps us out as always.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here.... just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio. Thank you for your patience.
Originally posted by Myria Originally posted by DrCokePepsiThe real, genuine, MMORPG community wants new games, but we ask for them and the F2P army comes and stomps us out as always.
Who decides who the "real, genuine, MMORPG community" is?
(hint: It's called "the market")
The genre decides what the genre is, whoever plays it doesn't matter, MMORPG is a genre with parameters that define what it is, yet whatever these games are being released these days are calling themselves MMORPG's but they're simply not. They're something else, and that's what is hurting the community.
I notice, the only argument that proud F2P players use against us is a quote of the revenue that these game developers make. That has no effect on the gamers whatsoever and should not be used in an argument where genre defining aspects are being discussed, how much a company makes is a poor argument because it shouldn't affect gameplay. Yes these greedy companies now, and this is what i so harshly complain about, do go where the money takes them, and the entire point of every complaint being made about F2P games is the fact that these companies only follow the money.
Again, a strategy game, isn't a FPS. It should never be but the 'popular vote' screams it should be. These companies are simply making another genre of game.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here.... just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio. Thank you for your patience.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoarWhat were those defined systems? Cause it sure as hell wasn't in grouping, they all let you solo. It might have been possible to solo some content, but it wasn't rewarded. In EQ (before they tried to make it easier to compete with wowish games) you couldn't do all that much solo, except for a couple of classes. Really nothing high level. You were encouraged to group by better loot, more xp, etc. Modern games give equal rewards for solo so most don't bother to group. It wasn't it hard or challenging content, because most of the games then had both easy and hard content. You can't be serious, if you think todays games have the same challenge as EQ or UO. In EO you couldn't even travel through most zones with out attracting mobs that could kill you if you made a mistake, and adding on until you had half the zone chasing you. I can't remember the last game where you could stroll around without attracting any mobs with very little effort. Another challenge was the time you had to put in to achieve things-levels/xp took more than a week to max, gear took commitment with guild, etc. It wasn't in death penalites because there was a great variety of that in old games. They might not have been the same but they were much more severe than anything lately. So what were those systems that defined MMORPG back then? I think it was just the capability of having a lot of people in the world that you could interact with... the same as now.
That is just one thing that the genre has in common. I'm not saying things shouldn't change or that there is only one way mmos should be, but you have to admit that games have become, simpler and less challenging over the years, and for those that like a challenge, it grows tiresome to see every game that comes out having in common is simplicity. What I see in the modern market is that every dev/company thinks if they pander to the single-player, solo content devouring market, they will hit a home run, and outside of WoW they mostly strike out. Those players will lose interest and move to newer game as soon as they max level 2 toons in 2 months. They should shoot for a double or triple with a demographic that will actually stay with the game for years. Time consuming content thats fun, encourage grouping and other community building mechanics, don't try to water everything down for mainstream, but choose systems that will attract, and keep, certain player base. Modernize the older mechanics that fit this, add the newer ideas that fit as well. Having $15/mo, box and expansions from 500k + for 5-10 years beats having 1 million buying box, getting their one free month and jumping ship.
Almost half the classes in original EQ could solo, but that doesn't answer the question. EQ was one game of 5 or 6, and even in UO soloing could be done very well, same with AC so I'm told. So the point remains in the original games soloing or grouping was not a defining system.
Same with the other points there are raids today in WoW that almost no one has done. Old games had a lot of easy parts to them as well, do you deny this? So once again there were easy and hard parts in old games, and once again EQ was one game of 5 or 6. So how hard the game was was not a defining system of MMO's.
So here is the question again since it was not answered. What were the defining systems?
Those sytems were freedom, creating a second identity, and all that in a living breathing WORLD to explore. GW2 for example since everyone loves it so much, is completely linear, your forced region to region which is instanced by the way. You're character follows a class that couldnt be unique if you tried, and the world isn't even close to living and breathing. You have no effect on the environment, you can't own a house, you cant climb up that mountain in the far distance, the 'events' everyone loves to call so unique aren't revolutionary whatsoever, it's just a more annoying version of a quest-chain, but at spontaneous times. And end-game is just collecting a few specific sets of dungeon-gear, doing the living world, or repeating WvW over and over.
I'll refer to SWG for this one as I believe it was a good example of how the genre was designed. In SWG you could just build a house anywhere. If you wanted to fly with a jetpack, cool. You want to fly in space? Awesome. Own a city? Here's the plans. Go play music with a holographic band? People will tip you if you play in a cantina. Ride a lizard? Of course, or you could drive a land speeder. Guild wars 2? Instantly teleport everywhere because that is what the industry has come down to.
See what I'm saying? Now you can reply and try to prove me wrong with a technical answer, and tell me what games has these mechanics, how great the industry is now and go well so and so does this, or this does that, but I can't argue back because I can't describe what the feeling of freedom is in an mmo over the computer. Ofc, Wurm offers ultimate freedom, i played that a wee bit, the gameplay is clunky and horrendous to me, not my personal cup of tea but i can see why you would enjoy it. Yes, Asheron's Call and Ultima Online still exist, But i shouldnt HAVE to play JUST those 2 anymore, I've grown tired of them....after YEARS and thats what you all seem to not understand, none of these real MMORPG's are being made anymore.
The real, genuine, MMORPG community wants new games, but we ask for them and the F2P army comes and stomps us out as always.
Some game back then had more freedom than others. EQ was a linear class driven game, just like WoW, but not as linear s SwTor. Games today let you create your 2nd identity just as much. You can and many do explore today just as much as before. EQ had no effect on envirotnemtn, couldn’t own a house, couldn’t climb that mountain in the far distance, your class wasn’t unique, end game was just raid after raid for gear.
You just described EQ when talking about GW2. And yes I know EQ was only 1 of 5 or 6. However it shows that that was not a defining characteristic of the genre, only of some specific games.
See what I'm saying? Everything you described today is EQ.
SWG was a good game (actually I thought it was crap) but it did have a lot of systems. But once again, that was one game, it did not define the genre.
As you said it comes down to your personal feeling, which is fine, but don't pretend your feeling is reflective of reality or of the games that did exist, or do exist now. Other people have that same feeling from games today, other people that played those games have the same feeling from games today. Don't pretend that what you feel is indicative of anything in the genre other than your feeling.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Comments
People that love to craft and create their own cities in SWG loved the game (like me) and those who were mostly combat hated it...but like it or not SWG was a brilliant game that had some flaws and I wish it were still around. It was simply the most fun I ever had in an MMO.
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
There is nothing correct in what you wrote.
Pushing adults out? If you look at any statistics at all, from any possible source, and there are many independent sources that done the research, you will see, that adults dominate in todays mmo's demography even more than ever in the last 10 years. So where did you pull out your facts from?
Quality never got better over last 10 years? I won't even comment on that.
And another assumption that expensive game automatically equals mature community, which is wrong on many levels. Since kids are minority in mmorpgs now, and most of the bad behaviour you see in games is actually made by adult people that are far away from being mature, but like to claim they are, and put themselves higher than everyone else. While I know many kids that play games, that are more civilized, smart and mature than many adults. Thinking in stereotypes is for old people, that refuse to learn and develop themselves, because they already think they know it all. I would even argue how much influence on bad social aspect of game have grumpy old men that play those games and keep complaining and demanding, and having the mentality "I want what I paid for damn you".
Yet the game failed, and while you can keep saying anything you want about why it failed and that it wasn't fault of the original mechanics etc. it is only an opinion and there is no possible way to prove why the game really failed and if it would fail or not if it kept it's original form. No one will know that, and the only certain thing is that it failed.
SWG failed at what?
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
The futility and frustration, it's all *their* fault.
/stamp feet
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
The game 's reputation was damaged by SOE's NGE fiasco but the main reason it's plug was pulled was SOE didn't want to renew it's IP contract with LucasArts which was probably too much. There would still be people playing if it wasn't for that...myself included.
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
It was closed.
You can be never 100% sure if it would still be running if they didn't do that mistake, but ok, fair enough.
All other considerations of whether SWG was a "failure" or not, on the financial side, it paid for itself several times over, even before the dreaded NGE. I am sure plenty of other companies would only be too happy to suffer such "failures".
And that aside, SWG provided several game systems that even most critics acknowledge were at the top of what the MMO genre has ever produced (crafting, player economy, support for multiple playstyles) before the NGE, at least. Like it or hate, SWG was its own thing, and that is why people still talk about it.
That is what the people who bash SWG forget.
There is a defined system of mechanics in the MMORPG genre that has just been blurred and thrown away over time because every one kicks and screams their way into the genre asking for it to revolve around them. If you don't like the adventure, social aspect and open world of the MMORPG genre then go play another type of genre, just get out of our genre.
Another anology, If you like first person shooters, and fast paced combat, don't play a strategy game, DEFINITELY don't go on the strategy game forums and whine that it isn't first person and fast paced!
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here....
just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development
and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio.
Thank you for your patience.
This post makes no sense. I would suggest you look up words like supply, demand, free market to understand why MMOs have changed / are changing like they are. Whether you like those changes or not is irreverent.
If we follow this logic, we would only have vanilla ice cream which would be awful as strawberry ice cream is clearly superior than plain-old-vanilla.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
What were those defined systems?
Cause it sure as hell wasn't in grouping, they all let you solo.
It wasn't it hard or challenging content, because most of the games then had both easy and hard content.
It wasn't in death penalites because there was a great variety of that in old games.
So what were those systems that defined MMORPG back then?
I think it was just the capability of having a lot of people in the world that you could interact with... the same as now.
That is just one thing that the genre has in common. I'm not saying things shouldn't change or that there is only one way mmos should be, but you have to admit that games have become, simpler and less challenging over the years, and for those that like a challenge, it grows tiresome to see every game that comes out having in common is simplicity.
What I see in the modern market is that every dev/company thinks if they pander to the single-player, solo content devouring market, they will hit a home run, and outside of WoW they mostly strike out. Those players will lose interest and move to newer game as soon as they max level 2 toons in 2 months. They should shoot for a double or triple with a demographic that will actually stay with the game for years. Time consuming content thats fun, encourage grouping and other community building mechanics, don't try to water everything down for mainstream, but choose systems that will attract, and keep, certain player base. Modernize the older mechanics that fit this, add the newer ideas that fit as well. Having $15/mo, box and expansions from 500k + for 5-10 years beats having 1 million buying box, getting their one free month and jumping ship.
You seem to have completely missed their point, which is a shame, because it's a very true one.
They're describing the very mentality that helped get the genre to where it is now... a whole lot of different MMOs, all built around the same 2 or 3 cookie-cutter templates.
When this genre went mainstream, it brought in many people who had never played a MMO. Some didn't even know what a MMO was. When WoW hit the scene, many people had no idea it was something called a MMORPG. All they knew was that Blizzard was putting out a new Warcraft game, that it was online and multiplayer and they culd play with other people.
Beyond that, they expected it to be "just another game", much like all the others they'd played. And that's where the problems began. When they realized that WoW was different.. It wasn't like Warcraft 3. It wasn't like Diablo II... It wasn't like all those other offline, or even limited multiplayer games they were used to.
This "MMORPG" thing was different, and they didn't like it.
They refused to accept it. Over the next several years, they proceeded to increasingly kick, stomp and shout to have these new games changed to be more like the ones they were used to playing.
Instead of an on-going adventure with no end, they wanted a defined "end"; a "finish line". Since a MMO doesn't have one, they adopted "End Game" and "Level Cap" as a surrogate. Instead of a long journey that could last years, they wanted to get to "the end" and through it all in a matter of weeks... even days.
They didn't want to explore and experience a vast virtual world. They wanted to "beat the game", so they could move on to the next. And you see that behavior quite prominently these days in the form of MMO-hopping.
Now, because the big companies developing these games care about one thing and one thing only: $$$$$$, they did their best to meet the players' demands. And so, MMOs have become increasingly easier, more shallow, less vast, more linear, less "open", and with absurd amounts of hand-holding. It's almost like many developers are afraid to ever let players have to figure anything out themselves... as though they'd get bored and play something else instead if they ever had to slow down for 1 minute to think about something or figure something out on their own. Sad thing is, gamers are only too ready (even if they don't realize it) to prove that notion true.
The MMO genre is a shadow of its former self,and this is largely due to people doing exactly what DrCokePepsi describes: people going into one type of game, and demanding it be changed to be more like another. Rather than adapt and expand their gamin vistas to include different styles of gameplay, they want everything to play like everything else.
What was once a narrower, but much deeper genre of games, has become a much wider, but immensely more shallow one, with very few still maintaining the brilliance it once had.
It's sad, but it's also true.
This post doesn't make a whole lot of sense other have lots of 'words' for the 'good old days / get off my lawn'.
The MMO genre changed due to market demands. Not sure why people are mad about this, sometimes your preference is niche.
And yes, it is so 'SAD' that MMORPG isn't a genre that gamers themselves made fun of, towards anyone who played them.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I have argued over the years for a return to old school MMO values. But I see it as creating a hybrid out of what we have now with what we have then. Not that many of us want corpse runs back for example.
The biggest areas of concern are the ease of getting to top level, the ability to solo your way to the top and more recently the pay to win ethos brought in by cash shops.
@OP
If you have not seen runescape lately (last 6 months). I'd suggest coming back for another go of it.
Big updates quick list:
1) Free trade and old wildy is back (for good, they gave players the choice on it).... that's the only one that hasn't happened in about the last 6 months. but that you may not know about.
2)The combat system has been updated (it's more like modern ability based systems now. But, it requires very good timing, Knowing your prey and gearing accordingly (mobs have general weakness and specific weakness now, and so do you...they always did. but it's more enhanced and makes the game a lot less melee centric, and it's a lot more entertaining too.).
3)We also have a new interface that has a pretty deep level of customization (even presets you can save different setups to for doing different kinds of things).
4) Got a new -freakin amazing- version of the game live with the old java client (it's HTML5, you need to have google chrome currently to use it and and good gaming machine...like i5core 8gb ram kinda thing).
5) tons of areas got huge visual updates. There have been new huge quests such as "While Guthix Sleeps" and the one that ushered in the 6th age "The world Wakes". Plus a bunch of the old f2p quests have been remade with more in depth storylines and activities and rewards from scratch...and just more new quests, new quest, new quests.
6) And speaking of the 6th age and lore update...guthix = dead, lumbrdige = ruins. big arse crater. Turns out gods are really huge. Saradomin and Zamorak Duking it out over what is basically guthix carcass now that his edicts barring gods from the world are gone. Players actions in the world event currently ongoing and future ones this year will decide the course of the game (who knows could all look like wildy in a year from now...or taverly *shrugs*)
7) And they got the guy who did jurrasic park music (or harry potter or both... forget what they said bout that exactly) to re-do most their tracks as high def full symphonic compositions.
8) You can give your loyalty to your god of choice (the minor or major ones). which earns you god related goodies. or you can basically ignore that content....or side with the godless faction.
9) new skill as of i think bout' a week ago called divination. It's a little raw but there is still a lot too it.
10) newish big activity/mingame called player owned ports.
11) new skill coming later this year (no real details yet but it will tied to divination).
12) new boss's...1 of which there is no possibility of soloing (on your own you'd have to take a 50k hit to get in the fight with him. so not possible to solo)
I remember those.
They gave the MMORPGs genre the reputation of "no skill, grindy game for no lifers".
Than came a game that compared to those had almost no grind and was much more like a game and became a juggernaut.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
agree
I miss the grindy mmos but WOW showed what most gamers really wanted
EQ2 fan sites
zomgyes. Runescape has an incredible amount of content. Recently returned after seven or eight years away and it's a completely different game with more content than I even know what to do with.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Almost half the classes in original EQ could solo, but that doesn't answer the question. EQ was one game of 5 or 6, and even in UO soloing could be done very well, same with AC so I'm told. So the point remains in the original games soloing or grouping was not a defining system.
Same with the other points there are raids today in WoW that almost no one has done. Old games had a lot of easy parts to them as well, do you deny this? So once again there were easy and hard parts in old games, and once again EQ was one game of 5 or 6. So how hard the game was was not a defining system of MMO's.
So here is the question again since it was not answered. What were the defining systems?
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here....
just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development
and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio.
Thank you for your patience.
Almost half the classes in original EQ could solo, but that doesn't answer the question. EQ was one game of 5 or 6, and even in UO soloing could be done very well, same with AC so I'm told. So the point remains in the original games soloing or grouping was not a defining system.
Same with the other points there are raids today in WoW that almost no one has done. Old games had a lot of easy parts to them as well, do you deny this? So once again there were easy and hard parts in old games, and once again EQ was one game of 5 or 6. So how hard the game was was not a defining system of MMO's.
So here is the question again since it was not answered. What were the defining systems?
Those sytems were freedom, creating a second identity, and all that in a living breathing WORLD to explore. GW2 for example since everyone loves it so much, is completely linear, your forced region to region which is instanced by the way. You're character follows a class that couldnt be unique if you tried, and the world isn't even close to living and breathing. You have no effect on the environment, you can't own a house, you cant climb up that mountain in the far distance, the 'events' everyone loves to call so unique aren't revolutionary whatsoever, it's just a more annoying version of a quest-chain, but at spontaneous times. And end-game is just collecting a few specific sets of dungeon-gear, doing the living world, or repeating WvW over and over.
I'll refer to SWG for this one as I believe it was a good example of how the genre was designed. In SWG you could just build a house anywhere. If you wanted to fly with a jetpack, cool. You want to fly in space? Awesome. Own a city? Here's the plans. Go play music with a holographic band? People will tip you if you play in a cantina. Ride a lizard? Of course, or you could drive a land speeder. Guild wars 2? Instantly teleport everywhere because that is what the industry has come down to.
See what I'm saying? Now you can reply and try to prove me wrong with a technical answer, and tell me what games has these mechanics, how great the industry is now and go well so and so does this, or this does that, but I can't argue back because I can't describe what the feeling of freedom is in an mmo over the computer. Ofc, Wurm offers ultimate freedom, i played that a wee bit, the gameplay is clunky and horrendous to me, not my personal cup of tea but i can see why you would enjoy it. Yes, Asheron's Call and Ultima Online still exist, But i shouldnt HAVE to play JUST those 2 anymore, I've grown tired of them....after YEARS and thats what you all seem to not understand, none of these real MMORPG's are being made anymore.
The real, genuine, MMORPG community wants new games, but we ask for them and the F2P army comes and stomps us out as always.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here....
just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development
and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio.
Thank you for your patience.
Who decides who the "real, genuine, MMORPG community" is?
(hint: It's called "the market")
(hint: It's called "the market")
The genre decides what the genre is, whoever plays it doesn't matter, MMORPG is a genre with parameters that define what it is, yet whatever these games are being released these days are calling themselves MMORPG's but they're simply not. They're something else, and that's what is hurting the community.
I notice, the only argument that proud F2P players use against us is a quote of the revenue that these game developers make. That has no effect on the gamers whatsoever and should not be used in an argument where genre defining aspects are being discussed, how much a company makes is a poor argument because it shouldn't affect gameplay. Yes these greedy companies now, and this is what i so harshly complain about, do go where the money takes them, and the entire point of every complaint being made about F2P games is the fact that these companies only follow the money.
Again, a strategy game, isn't a FPS. It should never be but the 'popular vote' screams it should be. These companies are simply making another genre of game.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here....
just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development
and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio.
Thank you for your patience.
Some game back then had more freedom than others. EQ was a linear class driven game, just like WoW, but not as linear s SwTor. Games today let you create your 2nd identity just as much. You can and many do explore today just as much as before. EQ had no effect on envirotnemtn, couldn’t own a house, couldn’t climb that mountain in the far distance, your class wasn’t unique, end game was just raid after raid for gear.
You just described EQ when talking about GW2. And yes I know EQ was only 1 of 5 or 6. However it shows that that was not a defining characteristic of the genre, only of some specific games.
See what I'm saying? Everything you described today is EQ.
SWG was a good game (actually I thought it was crap) but it did have a lot of systems. But once again, that was one game, it did not define the genre.
As you said it comes down to your personal feeling, which is fine, but don't pretend your feeling is reflective of reality or of the games that did exist, or do exist now. Other people have that same feeling from games today, other people that played those games have the same feeling from games today. Don't pretend that what you feel is indicative of anything in the genre other than your feeling.