Originally posted by Mr.Kujo Yet the game failed, and while you can keep saying anything you want about why it failed and that it wasn't fault of the original mechanics etc. it is only an opinion and there is no possible way to prove why the game really failed and if it would fail or not if it kept it's original form. No one will know that, and the only certain thing is that it failed.
SWG failed at what?
It was closed.
But why was it closed. Was it because it was a bad game that was losing money? Or was it because Lucas decided that only ONE Star Wars MMO was allowed, and SW:TOR was coming out?
Remember now, profitability (aka success) can kind of be supported with company financials, if they are available, which may or may not coincide with any personal view on failure. SWG is one of the worst examples of "game failure" to present.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Mr.Kujo Yet the game failed, and while you can keep saying anything you want about why it failed and that it wasn't fault of the original mechanics etc. it is only an opinion and there is no possible way to prove why the game really failed and if it would fail or not if it kept it's original form. No one will know that, and the only certain thing is that it failed.
SWG failed at what?
It was closed.
But why was it closed. Was it because it was a bad game that was losing money? Or was it because Lucas decided that only ONE Star Wars MMO was allowed, and SW:TOR was coming out?
Remember now, profitability (aka success) can kind of be supported with company financials, if they are available, which may or may not coincide with any personal view on failure. SWG is one of the worst examples of "game failure" to present.
SWG
SWG failed because it had a dedicated fanbase that enjoyed how the game was going, even though to some it might have been tedious ( being able to set up mining installations, farms, ect ).
And they thought all the "new consumers" would rather Instantly start playing as a Jedi ( Jedis in the star wars universe we're powerful characters, and few and far inbetween did you find one, as they were hunted down )
So you take a good game, AC, SWG, UO.
You care nothing for it's fanbase, and try and get more Consumers.
Here is the equation, and exactly why SWG lost all of it's fans.
We really just needed to make the game a lot more accessible to a much broader player base. There was lots of reading, much too much, in the game. There was a lot of wandering around learning about different abilities. We really needed to give people the experience of being Han Solo or Luke Skywalker rather than being Uncle Owen, the moisture farmer. We wanted more instant gratification: kill, get treasure, repeat. We needed to give people more of an opportunity to be a part of what they have seen in the movies rather than something they had created themselves.
So they took a 'good game' in the eyes of it's player, with it's little quirks and massive amount of depth, and ruined it with instant gratification. BOOM exactly why I cannot like or play any Current Massively Multiplayer Online Instant Gratifcation.
Originally posted by actionreaction Originally posted by AlBQuirkyOriginally posted by Mr.KujoOriginally posted by FinalFikusOriginally posted by Mr.KujoYet the game failed, and while you can keep saying anything you want about why it failed and that it wasn't fault of the original mechanics etc. it is only an opinion and there is no possible way to prove why the game really failed and if it would fail or not if it kept it's original form. No one will know that, and the only certain thing is that it failed.
SWG failed at what?It was closed. But why was it closed. Was it because it was a bad game that was losing money? Or was it because Lucas decided that only ONE Star Wars MMO was allowed, and SW:TOR was coming out? Remember now, profitability (aka success) can kind of be supported with company financials, if they are available, which may or may not coincide with any personal view on failure. SWG is one of the worst examples of "game failure" to present.SWG
SWG failed because it had a dedicated fanbase that enjoyed how the game was going, even though to some it might have been tedious ( being able to set up mining installations, farms, ect ).
And they thought all the "new consumers" would rather Instantly start playing as a Jedi ( Jedis in the star wars universe we're powerful characters, and few and far inbetween did you find one, as they were hunted down )
So you take a good game, AC, SWG, UO.
You care nothing for it's fanbase, and try and get more Consumers.
Here is the equation, and exactly why SWG lost all of it's fans.
We really just needed to make the game a lot more accessible to a much broader player base. There was lots of reading, much too much, in the game. There was a lot of wandering around learning about different abilities. We really needed to give people the experience of being Han Solo or Luke Skywalker rather than being Uncle Owen, the moisture farmer. We wanted more instant gratification: kill, get treasure, repeat. We needed to give people more of an opportunity to be a part of what they have seen in the movies rather than something they had created themselves.
So they took a 'good game' in the eyes of it's player, with it's little quirks and massive amount of depth, and ruined it with instant gratification. BOOM exactly why I cannot like or play any Current Massively Multiplayer Online Instant Gratifcation.
Perfectly put! This statement is the epitome of what modern MMO gaming has become! Kudos to you sir, thank you.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here.... just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio. Thank you for your patience.
Originally posted by actionreaction Here it's alot easier if we put into different terms So people really like reading say... Forgetten Realms books, right? Or atleast fans... How much do you think they would like the books if they went like this. The heros killed thousands of Orcs, then returned to Mithral Halls and rejoiced. The book above SUCKS, and is not entertaining. you taking out... - character development! VERY VERY Key aspect to any book - your removing the great ( but yes long ) scenes, they is a couple paragraphs of describing how the characters are fighting, there emotions, ect. Take every single movie out today and in the past. And shorten it to the Previews you see... wouldn't be so great would it? Say Lord of the Rings Movie goes like thisFrodo drops the ring into the lava. End of story... Fun? Entertaining? I don't think so.
Also so true, great analogy! thanks for the input!
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here.... just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio. Thank you for your patience.
If you have not seen runescape lately (last 6 months). I'd suggest coming back for another go of it.
Big updates quick list:
1) Free trade and old wildy is back (for good, they gave players the choice on it).... that's the only one that hasn't happened in about the last 6 months. but that you may not know about.
2)The combat system has been updated (it's more like modern ability based systems now. But, it requires very good timing, Knowing your prey and gearing accordingly (mobs have general weakness and specific weakness now, and so do you...they always did. but it's more enhanced and makes the game a lot less melee centric, and it's a lot more entertaining too.).
3)We also have a new interface that has a pretty deep level of customization (even presets you can save different setups to for doing different kinds of things).
4) Got a new -freakin amazing- version of the game live with the old java client (it's HTML5, you need to have google chrome currently to use it and and good gaming machine...like i5core 8gb ram kinda thing).
5) tons of areas got huge visual updates. There have been new huge quests such as "While Guthix Sleeps" and the one that ushered in the 6th age "The world Wakes". Plus a bunch of the old f2p quests have been remade with more in depth storylines and activities and rewards from scratch...and just more new quests, new quest, new quests.
6) And speaking of the 6th age and lore update...guthix = dead, lumbrdige = ruins. big arse crater. Turns out gods are really huge. Saradomin and Zamorak Duking it out over what is basically guthix carcass now that his edicts barring gods from the world are gone. Players actions in the world event currently ongoing and future ones this year will decide the course of the game (who knows could all look like wildy in a year from now...or taverly *shrugs*)
7) And they got the guy who did jurrasic park music (or harry potter or both... forget what they said bout that exactly) to re-do most their tracks as high def full symphonic compositions.
8) You can give your loyalty to your god of choice (the minor or major ones). which earns you god related goodies. or you can basically ignore that content....or side with the godless faction.
9) new skill as of i think bout' a week ago called divination. It's a little raw but there is still a lot too it.
10) newish big activity/mingame called player owned ports.
11) new skill coming later this year (no real details yet but it will tied to divination).
12) new boss's...1 of which there is no possibility of soloing (on your own you'd have to take a 50k hit to get in the fight with him. so not possible to solo)
I simply don't like the direction the game is going with it's cash-shop and the squeal of fortune. Those hurt my immersion too much because you have to grind for hours just to get a set of armor slightly better than the last (which im fine with, its rewarding) but then someone blows 20 bucks on the squeal or the cash shop and they have a fiery cat pet and ridiculous looking armor for no work at all. I'm dissapointed that way. Also, the game changes far too much, I like constant updates and content addition, but theres not even a resemblance to what the game used to be even a few months ago. Things are being taken out and changed far too unpredictably for me to want to put hours into my account. I used to appreciate the game now its just too unpredictable.
You make it sound like it has become pay to win or something, lol. Which I can assure you. it has not.
Squeal of Fortune:
All the squeal does is provide a fun way that the mods can make tweaks to the game balance noninvasively. It helps a couple of newbs break the glass ceiling and get to the games higher content. And, it's just a cute little game to those who are already there. There are some stated items you can win off of it. But, none of it is any where near as good as stuff you can buy (infact a first day newb can get better stated items on their own earning them).
Solomon's General store (the cash shop):
Every piece of armor and every weapon you can get from that are cosmetic overrides. They have some pets that have some interesting but not all that useful abilities, And the only thing I can think of that they sell that changes something about how you play is bank spaces. And, that is only there for hoarders who don't know how to throw stuff they don't need away. Because, to start with you are given an unreasonably large amount of bank space.
To date...:
The best Items in the game. And, the only one's you will get respect from other players for having you can only earn. Either by by playing through content and receiving them as a reward. Or working hard to make enough money to buy them. The runescape team has worked especially hard to make sure that new and fun content does not imbalance the game or make anything unfair (that fiery cat pet you mentioned is called a hell cat and you can only earn it through play).
They have rarely ever removed content from the game either. The find new purposes for old content. They update it. They make sure the lowest level mats still have continual uses at high levels so the game doesn't suffer from end-game sickness. But the only time they remove content is when players pretty much collectively demand it because it imbalances the game. And, the thing about runescape players is that, on average we are ravenous devourers of any and all content. Example divination came out about a week ago. A few players have already level capped it almost quicker then one of the mods in the behind the scenes could say "I am really interested to see who gets that skill cape first".
But, really if after all that you still feel the game has lost something. If you are still nostalgic for the environment of the past...They hired new mods and set aside a team just for you to bring back the 07' servers and maintain them. Runescape members (because, you have to pay people who work for you to keep open archaic things to please a small few...they tend not to do it for free) have the ability to create a new account on the old 07' servers and relive their earliest adventures. The servers are carefully maintained to preserve the spirit of the game at the time, while even more carefully providing occasional updates based solely on 07' players feedback.
Almost half the classes in original EQ could solo, but that doesn't answer the question. EQ was one game of 5 or 6, and even in UO soloing could be done very well, same with AC so I'm told. So the point remains in the original games soloing or grouping was not a defining system.
Same with the other points there are raids today in WoW that almost no one has done. Old games had a lot of easy parts to them as well, do you deny this? So once again there were easy and hard parts in old games, and once again EQ was one game of 5 or 6. So how hard the game was was not a defining system of MMO's.
So here is the question again since it was not answered. What were the defining systems?
When I see posts like this I really have to wonder if these people ever even played EQ, or just heard about it through other sources. Soloing was incredibly difficult in EQ unless you were handed gear by your level 60 and boosted up with high level Druid buffs. The best most could do were light blues and even then only in certain locations. The only classes who could solo consistently were those with snares and dots, otherwise the mobs just bashed the living crap out of you. Classes with snares and dots: Bard, Druid, Necromancer.
But to the question, I think the one defining thing about MMO's that are lacking now is an open world. In EQ you had locations such as Qeynos and Freeport, on opposite ends of the world, along with others such as Kelethin and Feerott. These were starting areas where you could explore, fight mobs, or just ignore altogether and go for a walk through dangerous lands to some other part of the world. Not only that, but these locations you came back to again and again, over your entire career. It gave a great feeling of freedom, of deciding your own path and your own journey, as well as the feeling of a 'real world'.
This is the main thing missing from new MMO's, as they've become so gamey that the world is little more than a place to smash your buttons in. Now, you start at point A, do quest 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 in that order, then progress to point B. There is no freedom, barely a hint of free choice, you're put on a train line and made to follow along.
Freedom and choice are gone to be replaced by a console button smash, follow the glowing path, reap the rewards, until you reach the end boss.
Almost half the classes in original EQ could solo, but that doesn't answer the question. EQ was one game of 5 or 6, and even in UO soloing could be done very well, same with AC so I'm told. So the point remains in the original games soloing or grouping was not a defining system.
Same with the other points there are raids today in WoW that almost no one has done. Old games had a lot of easy parts to them as well, do you deny this? So once again there were easy and hard parts in old games, and once again EQ was one game of 5 or 6. So how hard the game was was not a defining system of MMO's.
So here is the question again since it was not answered. What were the defining systems?
When I see posts like this I really have to wonder if these people ever even played EQ, or just heard about it through other sources. Soloing was incredibly difficult in EQ unless you were handed gear by your level 60 and boosted up with high level Druid buffs. The best most could do were light blues and even then only in certain locations. The only classes who could solo consistently were those with snares and dots, otherwise the mobs just bashed the living crap out of you. Classes with snares and dots: Bard, Druid, Necromancer.
But to the question, I think the one defining thing about MMO's that are lacking now is an open world. In EQ you had locations such as Qeynos and Freeport, on opposite ends of the world, along with others such as Kelethin and Feerott. These were starting areas where you could explore, fight mobs, or just ignore altogether and go for a walk through dangerous lands to some other part of the world. Not only that, but these locations you came back to again and again, over your entire career. It gave a great feeling of freedom, of deciding your own path and your own journey, as well as the feeling of a 'real world'.
This is the main thing missing from new MMO's, as they've become so gamey that the world is little more than a place to smash your buttons in. Now, you start at point A, do quest 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 in that order, then progress to point B. There is no freedom, barely a hint of free choice, you're put on a train line and made to follow along.
Freedom and choice are gone to be replaced by a console button smash, follow the glowing path, reap the rewards, until you reach the end boss.
I have to wonder as well.
There was nothing hard about EQ.
Druid, bard, necro, paladin, sk, mage, monk could all solo to end game. Yes soloing took much much longer. No none of them could solo raids (it's a raid after all) but all could and did regularly solo very well. Enchanters I'm told could as well, I never played one so couldn't say but with pets and mez/charm I could see it. Those classes could solo, greens, light blue and darkblue. Heck several of them coudl take on several at once.
Lots of games today have that open world (no swtor didn't and that was a major drawback). Actually swtor was the only game I played that didn't let me leave the starting zone and go where I wanted.
I will agree that going to those locations repeatedly did make it feel like a world. However WoW does that as well and it is constantly ragged about how unworld like it is.
Some games back then had freedom, EQ didn't. IMO wow has more freedom than EQ. Some games today have freedom, more games in the future look like they have freedom.
That hasn't changed in the genere, some games have it, some don't. UO and swg had it, EQ didn't. WoW has more than EQ, swtor had less. Age of Wushu has it. EQnext may have it.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
We really just needed to make the game a lot more accessible to a much broader player base. There was lots of reading, much too much, in the game. There was a lot of wandering around learning about different abilities. We really needed to give people the experience of being Han Solo or Luke Skywalker rather than being Uncle Owen, the moisture farmer. We wanted more instant gratification: kill, get treasure, repeat. We needed to give people more of an opportunity to be a part of what they have seen in the movies rather than something they had created themselves.
So they took a 'good game' in the eyes of it's player, with it's little quirks and massive amount of depth, and ruined it with instant gratification. BOOM exactly why I cannot like or play any Current Massively Multiplayer Online Instant Gratifcation.
I was one of the people who wanted to play Uncle Owen. I saw the character as a pioneer who was building moisture farms on a desert planet and thus bringing civilization to the area. He actually bought the droids because he was expanding the operation and needed the extra processing power an astromech droid would provide.
My main problem with SWG was that it did not provide that experience. If you were willing to endure the most repetive skill up grind I ever encountered, you could become a crafter and peddle your wares. However, there were no real tools to build up an enterprise, to put up farms or create real industries. It was all very low level and lacked depth. Mostly the game play experience ended up as you playing a Luke who was trapped on a planet and would have to go through the same repetive tasks for the rest of his life.
SWG was very broad but it was not terribly deep. It touched shallowly on a wide range of areas but if you tried to focus on one you liked, you quickly found yourself stuck without a way to progress further. It is telling that the Jedi hologrind required you to go through all the different professions in the most shallow way possible and not really settle into one area lest you saw how baren it was.
Freedom and choice has been replaced by a game that tells you a story.
Some prefer to write and some prefer to read.
I am the latter and so is the majority of MMO players. Whether you like it or not is irrelevent.
Stories belong in single player games, not MMO's. Why? Because a story has an end and once the players hit that end, what's to keep them playing? That right there is going to pull the MMO into the barren world of F2P faster than anything else.
Freedom and choice has been replaced by a game that tells you a story.
Some prefer to write and some prefer to read.
I am the latter and so is the majority of MMO players. Whether you like it or not is irrelevent.
Stories belong in single player games, not MMO's. Why? Because a story has an end and once the players hit that end, what's to keep them playing? That right there is going to pull the MMO into the barren world of F2P faster than anything else.
Nothing. No one says i cannot finish the story content of a MMORPG and move on.
The games don't need to go back to their original, tedious, long-grinded roots to be successful community-driven games again. Developers just need to focus on making a world that functions in-of-itself and doesn't feel like a bunch of random features chucked together. My biggest gripe about games like Rift and current World of Warcraft, is that I don't actually feel like I'm playing an MMO, I know what I'm in for the second I sit down and don't feel even an ounce of immersion, 90% of my gameplay is done through checkboxes and windows that teleport me to random shit, and when I get there I do a mindless rotation with people from different servers that I won't speak a word to. I don't want to jump from content to content like an idiot. Darkfall: Unholy Wars is a great game for that despite a lot of it's shortcomings, it functions as a game itself, and doesn't require constant money fondling and shiny things to keep it going.
I think Final Fantasy 14 is the best MMO I've played in years, but it suffers from a lot of the modern-mmo issues as well. A lot of crazy convienence features that break a lot of the world. It also makes up for it by sticking to it's franchises guns and keeping some things retro. Dungeon Finder... but you have to do quests to unlock the dungeons... It's a healthy mix, but I would still like the be able to find myself lost and concerned in a game like this again. Despite how hooked I am to the game I know that I will never actually be forced to communicate with anyone until guild raiding.
Currently playing - FF14ARR Previous games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.
The games don't need to go back to their original, tedious, long-grinded roots to be successful community-driven games again.
I agree. Just have good story content, sell it, and let players finish and move on.
Produce more content to sell them to get them to pay more. GW1, GW2 are doing so, as well as many SP games with DLCs. MMOs should learn something from that.
This thread's title was a bit misleading and appeared that the OP never took off his rose-colored glasses. It implied (to myself at least) that maybe he wanted to remind people about the negatives that the old MMO and not so much about the all too commonly "remembered" positives. The OP goes on to defining how an MMO SHOULD be which I believe is entirely wrong, and trust me...I'm the patient type as well. If an environment is going to be established, it should cater to the majority of a given population as best it can and unfortunately, the patient exploratory variety appears to be in a minority.
It's somewhat like politics, you can't agree or cater to everyone's ideas so all you can do is try to compromise and cater to the greater majority. And if we really just polished the mechanics were there, the potential of finding anything very new or innovative is taken away as well. If you are in fact of the "patient, curious, adventurous" type of player, you should very well understand and allow developers to also explore the MMO industry and MMO development realm and be equally patient as it is being said in your game playin as well. Clinging onto old mechanics (that not everyone likes especially) and merely enhancing them will never be the path to progressing the MMO genre.
Better model still, produce great game with great story and have a properly fleshed out and significant expansion to story and game every year that integrates well into the existing virtual world and enhances it, not just 5 levels worth of rush to next end game tier/rip up and start again). Less profit, more investment and value for money for customers. Jobs a good un
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Agree with the OP. And glad the first reply was a supportive one. The naysayers patrol this site like predator drones; but apparently they waited too long (a whole five minutes).
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Nothing. No one says i cannot finish the story content of a MMORPG and move on.
Which is the complete opposite of what the developers want you to do. They want you to keep playing and keep paying. If they wanted to create a game you could solo your way through, with story content that comes to an end so that you can move on to the next game, they certainly wouldn't be wasting time and resources on making it an MMO. They'd make a single player game.
Nothing. No one says i cannot finish the story content of a MMORPG and move on.
Which is the complete opposite of what the developers want you to do. They want you to keep playing and keep paying. If they wanted to create a game you could solo your way through, with story content that comes to an end so that you can move on to the next game, they certainly wouldn't be wasting time and resources on making it an MMO. They'd make a single player game.
And yet, many MMORPGs can be played as solo games, and one can easily finish the content and move on.
I don't really care what devs want me to do. If they don't want me to solo through content and leave, don't make it possible. If they make it possible, i will take advantage of it.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by UsualSuspectOriginally posted by nariusseldonNothing. No one says i cannot finish the story content of a MMORPG and move on.
Which is the complete opposite of what the developers want you to do. They want you to keep playing and keep paying. If they wanted to create a game you could solo your way through, with story content that comes to an end so that you can move on to the next game, they certainly wouldn't be wasting time and resources on making it an MMO. They'd make a single player game.And yet, many MMORPGs can be played as solo games, and one can easily finish the content and move on.
I don't really care what devs want me to do. If they don't want me to solo through content and leave, don't make it possible. If they make it possible, i will take advantage of it.
And the final statement is truly what is reflected by the developers which in turn is reflected by the larger majority of the population base. And on that note if that wasn't the developers intention at all, they wouldn't of made it possible.
My impression of the "intention" of MMOs developed was always to find reasons and ways to place many people into a single area. Measuring in terms of completion, rate of completion and the way content is completed isn't as important as it is in let's say single player games. The intention is that the experiences are pushed along or at the very least supplemented by player interaction. To myself, content is just a means to getting that but completion of it isn't particularly as important in an MMO.
Originally posted by jpnz Originally posted by UsualSuspect
/snip as it is 'we need a world!' rant Freedom and choice are gone to be replaced by a console button smash, follow the glowing path, reap the rewards, until you reach the end boss.Freedom and choice has been replaced by a game that tells you a story.
Some prefer to write and some prefer to read.
I am the latter and so is the majority of MMO players. Whether you like it or not is irrelevent.
JPNZ, this post is false. First of all MMORPGS shouldn't be played to experience a story, your there to create your own, replacing that mechanic makes the game another genre. And second of all, no. Not a majority of MMORPG players prefers following a shitty storyline. The majority of MMO players are lost in MMORPG limbo waiting for a legitmate MMORPG to come out, and are stuck playing shitty games that offer no choice.
JPNZ, from all of your previous arguments, you clearly don't understand what an MMORPG is supposed to be, yes opinion is opinion but games these days are simply not MMORPGs, they may be MMOs but the essence of an MMORPG is to create your own story or legend with the community the game has, not to get the PHAT LOOTS YOLO from running quests over and over and over and over and over and over.
You want a story? Go play an ADVENTURE GAME. This is EXACTLY the example i mentioned with wanting a FPS strategy game, an MMORPG was not ever meant to be a single-player adventure game, yet the armies of game-hoppers and console-players demand it be so.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here.... just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio. Thank you for your patience.
/snip as it is 'we need a world!' rant Freedom and choice are gone to be replaced by a console button smash, follow the glowing path, reap the rewards, until you reach the end boss.
Freedom and choice has been replaced by a game that tells you a story.
Some prefer to write and some prefer to read.
I am the latter and so is the majority of MMO players. Whether you like it or not is irrelevent.
JPNZ, this post is false. First of all MMORPGS shouldn't be played to experience a story (opinion), your there to create your own (opinion), replacing that mechanic makes the game another genre (opinion). And second of all, no. Not a majority of MMORPG players prefers following a shitty storyline (opinion). The majority of MMO players are lost in MMORPG limbo waiting for a legitmate MMORPG to come out, and are stuck playing shitty games that offer no choice (opinion).
JPNZ, from all of your previous arguments, you clearly don't understand what an MMORPG is supposed to be (opinion), yes opinion is opinion but games these days are simply not MMORPGs (opinion), they may be MMOs but the essence of an MMORPG is to create your own story (opinion)or legend with the community the game has (opinion), not to get the PHAT LOOTS YOLO from running quests over and over and over and over and over and over (opinion).
You want a story? Go play an ADVENTURE GAME. This is EXACTLY the example i mentioned with wanting a FPS strategy game, an MMORPG was not ever meant to be a single-player adventure game, yet the armies of game-hoppers and console-players demand it be so.
You state it was false and yet give nothing but opinion. Many disagree with you including many from the original games.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by LizardEgyptThe games don't need to go back to their original, tedious, long-grinded roots to be successful community-driven games again.
I agree. Just have good story content, sell it, and let players finish and move on.
Produce more content to sell them to get them to pay more. GW1, GW2 are doing so, as well as many SP games with DLCs. MMOs should learn something from that.
Are you joking. Dude, PLAY YOUR SINGLEPLAYER GAMES! an MMORPG shouldn't have singleplayer elements, you obviously need to play another genre of game because you complain about everything that made MMORPG's what they are. This post is so awefully just literally incorrect I cannot argue how false this is. This post is literally false. Like your basically saying that MMORPGs should become god of war or uncharted, like i seriously cannot believe you said this.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here.... just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio. Thank you for your patience.
Originally posted by LizardEgyptThe games don't need to go back to their original, tedious, long-grinded roots to be successful community-driven games again.
I agree. Just have good story content, sell it, and let players finish and move on.
Produce more content to sell them to get them to pay more. GW1, GW2 are doing so, as well as many SP games with DLCs. MMOs should learn something from that.
Are you joking. Dude, PLAY YOUR SINGLEPLAYER GAMES! an MMORPG shouldn't have singleplayer elements, you obviously need to play another genre of game because you complain about everything that made MMORPG's what they are. This post is so awefully just literally incorrect I cannot argue how false this is. This post is literally false. Like your basically saying that MMORPGs should become god of war or uncharted, like i seriously cannot believe you said this.
Well since every MMO that has ever existed, including the ones that arguably started the genre have had single player elements. I would say yours is false.
Why should he play another genre when this genre is offering what he wants. Maybe you should play another genre if this one is not offering what you want.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by LizardEgyptThe games don't need to go back to their original, tedious, long-grinded roots to be successful community-driven games again.
I agree. Just have good story content, sell it, and let players finish and move on.
Produce more content to sell them to get them to pay more. GW1, GW2 are doing so, as well as many SP games with DLCs. MMOs should learn something from that.
Are you joking. Dude, PLAY YOUR SINGLEPLAYER GAMES! an MMORPG shouldn't have singleplayer elements, you obviously need to play another genre of game because you complain about everything that made MMORPG's what they are. This post is so awefully just literally incorrect I cannot argue how false this is. This post is literally false. Like your basically saying that MMORPGs should become god of war or uncharted, like i seriously cannot believe you said this.
Well since every MMO that has ever existed, including the ones that arguably started the genre have had single player elements. I would yours is false.
Yeah.
And it is silly to try to tell others what to do on the internet. I *am* playing MMORPGs like a solo game. There is nothing anyone else can do about it.
Comments
Was it because it was a bad game that was losing money?
Or was it because Lucas decided that only ONE Star Wars MMO was allowed, and SW:TOR was coming out?
Remember now, profitability (aka success) can kind of be supported with company financials, if they are available, which may or may not coincide with any personal view on failure. SWG is one of the worst examples of "game failure" to present.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
SWG
SWG failed because it had a dedicated fanbase that enjoyed how the game was going, even though to some it might have been tedious ( being able to set up mining installations, farms, ect ).
And they thought all the "new consumers" would rather Instantly start playing as a Jedi ( Jedis in the star wars universe we're powerful characters, and few and far inbetween did you find one, as they were hunted down )
So you take a good game, AC, SWG, UO.
You care nothing for it's fanbase, and try and get more Consumers.
Here is the equation, and exactly why SWG lost all of it's fans.
We really just needed to make the game a lot more accessible to a much broader player base. There was lots of reading, much too much, in the game. There was a lot of wandering around learning about different abilities. We really needed to give people the experience of being Han Solo or Luke Skywalker rather than being Uncle Owen, the moisture farmer. We wanted more instant gratification: kill, get treasure, repeat. We needed to give people more of an opportunity to be a part of what they have seen in the movies rather than something they had created themselves.
So they took a 'good game' in the eyes of it's player, with it's little quirks and massive amount of depth, and ruined it with instant gratification. BOOM exactly why I cannot like or play any Current Massively Multiplayer Online Instant Gratifcation.
Here it's alot easier if we put into different terms
So people really like reading say... Forgetten Realms books, right? Or atleast fans...
How much do you think they would like the books if they went like this.
The heros killed thousands of Orcs, then returned to Mithral Halls and rejoiced.
The book above SUCKS, and is not entertaining.
you taking out...
- character development! VERY VERY Key aspect to any book
- your removing the great ( but yes long ) scenes, they is a couple paragraphs of describing how the characters are fighting, there emotions, ect.
Take every single movie out today and in the past. And shorten it to the Previews you see... wouldn't be so great would it?
Say Lord of the Rings
Movie goes like this
Frodo drops the ring into the lava. End of story...
Fun? Entertaining? I don't think so.
It was closed.
But why was it closed. Was it because it was a bad game that was losing money? Or was it because Lucas decided that only ONE Star Wars MMO was allowed, and SW:TOR was coming out? Remember now, profitability (aka success) can kind of be supported with company financials, if they are available, which may or may not coincide with any personal view on failure. SWG is one of the worst examples of "game failure" to present.
SWG
SWG failed because it had a dedicated fanbase that enjoyed how the game was going, even though to some it might have been tedious ( being able to set up mining installations, farms, ect ).
And they thought all the "new consumers" would rather Instantly start playing as a Jedi ( Jedis in the star wars universe we're powerful characters, and few and far inbetween did you find one, as they were hunted down )
So you take a good game, AC, SWG, UO.
You care nothing for it's fanbase, and try and get more Consumers.
Here is the equation, and exactly why SWG lost all of it's fans.
We really just needed to make the game a lot more accessible to a much broader player base. There was lots of reading, much too much, in the game. There was a lot of wandering around learning about different abilities. We really needed to give people the experience of being Han Solo or Luke Skywalker rather than being Uncle Owen, the moisture farmer. We wanted more instant gratification: kill, get treasure, repeat. We needed to give people more of an opportunity to be a part of what they have seen in the movies rather than something they had created themselves.
So they took a 'good game' in the eyes of it's player, with it's little quirks and massive amount of depth, and ruined it with instant gratification. BOOM exactly why I cannot like or play any Current Massively Multiplayer Online Instant Gratifcation.
Perfectly put! This statement is the epitome of what modern MMO gaming has become! Kudos to you sir, thank you.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here....
just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development
and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio.
Thank you for your patience.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here....
just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development
and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio.
Thank you for your patience.
You make it sound like it has become pay to win or something, lol. Which I can assure you. it has not.
Squeal of Fortune:
All the squeal does is provide a fun way that the mods can make tweaks to the game balance noninvasively. It helps a couple of newbs break the glass ceiling and get to the games higher content. And, it's just a cute little game to those who are already there. There are some stated items you can win off of it. But, none of it is any where near as good as stuff you can buy (infact a first day newb can get better stated items on their own earning them).
Solomon's General store (the cash shop):
Every piece of armor and every weapon you can get from that are cosmetic overrides. They have some pets that have some interesting but not all that useful abilities, And the only thing I can think of that they sell that changes something about how you play is bank spaces. And, that is only there for hoarders who don't know how to throw stuff they don't need away. Because, to start with you are given an unreasonably large amount of bank space.
To date...:
The best Items in the game. And, the only one's you will get respect from other players for having you can only earn. Either by by playing through content and receiving them as a reward. Or working hard to make enough money to buy them. The runescape team has worked especially hard to make sure that new and fun content does not imbalance the game or make anything unfair (that fiery cat pet you mentioned is called a hell cat and you can only earn it through play).
They have rarely ever removed content from the game either. The find new purposes for old content. They update it. They make sure the lowest level mats still have continual uses at high levels so the game doesn't suffer from end-game sickness. But the only time they remove content is when players pretty much collectively demand it because it imbalances the game. And, the thing about runescape players is that, on average we are ravenous devourers of any and all content. Example divination came out about a week ago. A few players have already level capped it almost quicker then one of the mods in the behind the scenes could say "I am really interested to see who gets that skill cape first".
But, really if after all that you still feel the game has lost something. If you are still nostalgic for the environment of the past...They hired new mods and set aside a team just for you to bring back the 07' servers and maintain them. Runescape members (because, you have to pay people who work for you to keep open archaic things to please a small few...they tend not to do it for free) have the ability to create a new account on the old 07' servers and relive their earliest adventures. The servers are carefully maintained to preserve the spirit of the game at the time, while even more carefully providing occasional updates based solely on 07' players feedback.
When I see posts like this I really have to wonder if these people ever even played EQ, or just heard about it through other sources. Soloing was incredibly difficult in EQ unless you were handed gear by your level 60 and boosted up with high level Druid buffs. The best most could do were light blues and even then only in certain locations. The only classes who could solo consistently were those with snares and dots, otherwise the mobs just bashed the living crap out of you. Classes with snares and dots: Bard, Druid, Necromancer.
But to the question, I think the one defining thing about MMO's that are lacking now is an open world. In EQ you had locations such as Qeynos and Freeport, on opposite ends of the world, along with others such as Kelethin and Feerott. These were starting areas where you could explore, fight mobs, or just ignore altogether and go for a walk through dangerous lands to some other part of the world. Not only that, but these locations you came back to again and again, over your entire career. It gave a great feeling of freedom, of deciding your own path and your own journey, as well as the feeling of a 'real world'.
This is the main thing missing from new MMO's, as they've become so gamey that the world is little more than a place to smash your buttons in. Now, you start at point A, do quest 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 in that order, then progress to point B. There is no freedom, barely a hint of free choice, you're put on a train line and made to follow along.
Freedom and choice are gone to be replaced by a console button smash, follow the glowing path, reap the rewards, until you reach the end boss.
Freedom and choice has been replaced by a game that tells you a story.
Some prefer to write and some prefer to read.
I am the latter and so is the majority of MMO players. Whether you like it or not is irrelevent.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I have to wonder as well.
There was nothing hard about EQ.
Druid, bard, necro, paladin, sk, mage, monk could all solo to end game. Yes soloing took much much longer. No none of them could solo raids (it's a raid after all) but all could and did regularly solo very well. Enchanters I'm told could as well, I never played one so couldn't say but with pets and mez/charm I could see it. Those classes could solo, greens, light blue and darkblue. Heck several of them coudl take on several at once.
Lots of games today have that open world (no swtor didn't and that was a major drawback). Actually swtor was the only game I played that didn't let me leave the starting zone and go where I wanted.
I will agree that going to those locations repeatedly did make it feel like a world. However WoW does that as well and it is constantly ragged about how unworld like it is.
Some games back then had freedom, EQ didn't. IMO wow has more freedom than EQ. Some games today have freedom, more games in the future look like they have freedom.
That hasn't changed in the genere, some games have it, some don't. UO and swg had it, EQ didn't. WoW has more than EQ, swtor had less. Age of Wushu has it. EQnext may have it.
I was one of the people who wanted to play Uncle Owen. I saw the character as a pioneer who was building moisture farms on a desert planet and thus bringing civilization to the area. He actually bought the droids because he was expanding the operation and needed the extra processing power an astromech droid would provide.
My main problem with SWG was that it did not provide that experience. If you were willing to endure the most repetive skill up grind I ever encountered, you could become a crafter and peddle your wares. However, there were no real tools to build up an enterprise, to put up farms or create real industries. It was all very low level and lacked depth. Mostly the game play experience ended up as you playing a Luke who was trapped on a planet and would have to go through the same repetive tasks for the rest of his life.
SWG was very broad but it was not terribly deep. It touched shallowly on a wide range of areas but if you tried to focus on one you liked, you quickly found yourself stuck without a way to progress further. It is telling that the Jedi hologrind required you to go through all the different professions in the most shallow way possible and not really settle into one area lest you saw how baren it was.
Stories belong in single player games, not MMO's. Why? Because a story has an end and once the players hit that end, what's to keep them playing? That right there is going to pull the MMO into the barren world of F2P faster than anything else.
Nothing. No one says i cannot finish the story content of a MMORPG and move on.
The games don't need to go back to their original, tedious, long-grinded roots to be successful community-driven games again. Developers just need to focus on making a world that functions in-of-itself and doesn't feel like a bunch of random features chucked together. My biggest gripe about games like Rift and current World of Warcraft, is that I don't actually feel like I'm playing an MMO, I know what I'm in for the second I sit down and don't feel even an ounce of immersion, 90% of my gameplay is done through checkboxes and windows that teleport me to random shit, and when I get there I do a mindless rotation with people from different servers that I won't speak a word to. I don't want to jump from content to content like an idiot. Darkfall: Unholy Wars is a great game for that despite a lot of it's shortcomings, it functions as a game itself, and doesn't require constant money fondling and shiny things to keep it going.
I think Final Fantasy 14 is the best MMO I've played in years, but it suffers from a lot of the modern-mmo issues as well. A lot of crazy convienence features that break a lot of the world. It also makes up for it by sticking to it's franchises guns and keeping some things retro. Dungeon Finder... but you have to do quests to unlock the dungeons... It's a healthy mix, but I would still like the be able to find myself lost and concerned in a game like this again. Despite how hooked I am to the game I know that I will never actually be forced to communicate with anyone until guild raiding.
Currently playing - FF14ARR
Previous games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.
I agree. Just have good story content, sell it, and let players finish and move on.
Produce more content to sell them to get them to pay more. GW1, GW2 are doing so, as well as many SP games with DLCs. MMOs should learn something from that.
This thread's title was a bit misleading and appeared that the OP never took off his rose-colored glasses. It implied (to myself at least) that maybe he wanted to remind people about the negatives that the old MMO and not so much about the all too commonly "remembered" positives. The OP goes on to defining how an MMO SHOULD be which I believe is entirely wrong, and trust me...I'm the patient type as well. If an environment is going to be established, it should cater to the majority of a given population as best it can and unfortunately, the patient exploratory variety appears to be in a minority.
It's somewhat like politics, you can't agree or cater to everyone's ideas so all you can do is try to compromise and cater to the greater majority. And if we really just polished the mechanics were there, the potential of finding anything very new or innovative is taken away as well. If you are in fact of the "patient, curious, adventurous" type of player, you should very well understand and allow developers to also explore the MMO industry and MMO development realm and be equally patient as it is being said in your game playin as well. Clinging onto old mechanics (that not everyone likes especially) and merely enhancing them will never be the path to progressing the MMO genre.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Agree with the OP. And glad the first reply was a supportive one. The naysayers patrol this site like predator drones; but apparently they waited too long (a whole five minutes).
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Which is the complete opposite of what the developers want you to do. They want you to keep playing and keep paying. If they wanted to create a game you could solo your way through, with story content that comes to an end so that you can move on to the next game, they certainly wouldn't be wasting time and resources on making it an MMO. They'd make a single player game.
And yet, many MMORPGs can be played as solo games, and one can easily finish the content and move on.
I don't really care what devs want me to do. If they don't want me to solo through content and leave, don't make it possible. If they make it possible, i will take advantage of it.
And yet, many MMORPGs can be played as solo games, and one can easily finish the content and move on.
I don't really care what devs want me to do. If they don't want me to solo through content and leave, don't make it possible. If they make it possible, i will take advantage of it.
And the final statement is truly what is reflected by the developers which in turn is reflected by the larger majority of the population base. And on that note if that wasn't the developers intention at all, they wouldn't of made it possible.
My impression of the "intention" of MMOs developed was always to find reasons and ways to place many people into a single area. Measuring in terms of completion, rate of completion and the way content is completed isn't as important as it is in let's say single player games. The intention is that the experiences are pushed along or at the very least supplemented by player interaction. To myself, content is just a means to getting that but completion of it isn't particularly as important in an MMO.
Freedom and choice has been replaced by a game that tells you a story.
Some prefer to write and some prefer to read.
I am the latter and so is the majority of MMO players. Whether you like it or not is irrelevent.
JPNZ, this post is false. First of all MMORPGS shouldn't be played to experience a story, your there to create your own, replacing that mechanic makes the game another genre. And second of all, no. Not a majority of MMORPG players prefers following a shitty storyline. The majority of MMO players are lost in MMORPG limbo waiting for a legitmate MMORPG to come out, and are stuck playing shitty games that offer no choice.
JPNZ, from all of your previous arguments, you clearly don't understand what an MMORPG is supposed to be, yes opinion is opinion but games these days are simply not MMORPGs, they may be MMOs but the essence of an MMORPG is to create your own story or legend with the community the game has, not to get the PHAT LOOTS YOLO from running quests over and over and over and over and over and over.
You want a story? Go play an ADVENTURE GAME. This is EXACTLY the example i mentioned with wanting a FPS strategy game, an MMORPG was not ever meant to be a single-player adventure game, yet the armies of game-hoppers and console-players demand it be so.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here....
just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development
and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio.
Thank you for your patience.
You state it was false and yet give nothing but opinion. Many disagree with you including many from the original games.
Produce more content to sell them to get them to pay more. GW1, GW2 are doing so, as well as many SP games with DLCs. MMOs should learn something from that.
Are you joking. Dude, PLAY YOUR SINGLEPLAYER GAMES! an MMORPG shouldn't have singleplayer elements, you obviously need to play another genre of game because you complain about everything that made MMORPG's what they are. This post is so awefully just literally incorrect I cannot argue how false this is. This post is literally false. Like your basically saying that MMORPGs should become god of war or uncharted, like i seriously cannot believe you said this.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here....
just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development
and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio.
Thank you for your patience.
Well since every MMO that has ever existed, including the ones that arguably started the genre have had single player elements. I would say yours is false.
Why should he play another genre when this genre is offering what he wants. Maybe you should play another genre if this one is not offering what you want.
Yeah.
And it is silly to try to tell others what to do on the internet. I *am* playing MMORPGs like a solo game. There is nothing anyone else can do about it.