I read EVERY post on this thread and there are a lot of good ideas. Let me also say that I have waited for someone to write an MMO such as this since Fallout and Fallout 2! And, just a warning, this is a longish post.
Like someone else I read, I'm impressed by the level of maturity displayed during this discussion. It only makes me want to play this game even more. I could actually handle being PKd by someone who wouldn't verbally harass me in addition to killing me (e.g. U sux0r!!!!11!!).
While I typically do not PvP, I do recognize the need for it especially in a post-apocalyptic game such as FE -- lots of danger... everywhere. Here are my ideas for a PvP system, all these are brain storming type ideas that hopefully might spark an even better idea from someone on this forum or the Devs:
1) Allow PvP by anyone and anywhere. DO include arenas anyway, perhaps offering money or loot as an inticement to use these while providing entertainment for those watching. Those who wish to watch would have to pay to watch from the "stands" and the winner would take a lion's share of the purse (while the remaining goes to the "system"). Sort of a roman gladiator thing.
2) Players pariticipating in PvP in town areas where there is law enforcement (LE) should be "dealt with" by said LE and any players in the area. Players killing LE would "mark" them as KoS by the respawned LE but not for other players. Players killed by LE would be looted by the LE (although, I'm sure for database size sake, they would have to delete those loot objects, else they'd continue building up). This could reduce griefers. And griefers who do it outside of town would be considered Raiders and deserve whatever they get.
3) Give each object in the game, including players, "hit locations" and "hitpoints" and "Armor Level" and designate something on the body of the object a one-shot kill location or, at least, particularly vulnerable to attack. For example, everyone knows that, on a humaniod non-mutant creature, the head is usually the kill location. If you have FPS skill to do this, you deserve the kill and the rewards thereof. Also, I can see this opening up all kinds of RP scenarios... such as knee-capping someone on a "deserted road" and parlaying with them for their life or maybe knocking them out and looting their "unconscious" body. Damage to certain locations could limit mobility, etc. etc.
4) Give loot objects a "to find" value on the corpse. The time spent looting the body would increase the "to find" values on the body and be modified by a "perception" skill perhaps. That way, there is a chance something could be left behind on the corpse that someone didn't notice or didn't have the time to notice. Maybe also incorporate a "hide object" skill that could decrease the "to find" value of an object or two that a player wants to hide on his/her person. Loot items not collected by someone after a period of time will loose them to entropy. I don't know how practical this would be though, from a coding standpoint. If there are lots of corpses, game lag could increase and whatnot. These "to find" values would be good to use while "scavenging" ruins or "abandoned" complexes.
5) Allow players to booby trap their bodies or their loot. This could be balanced by giving the protected object an increased "use" time where the player would have to be careful not to trip the trap on himself. This would also help keep griefers down and PvP would become a lot more interesting if the PvP reason is loot-driven. Of course, there would have to be skills or devices that could help counter this but never, IMO, at 100% (Risk=Reward: Looting should not be risk-less either!). This would be especially handy as merchant-type people would like to protect their goods when traveling from place to place. I like the NPC Guards idea as well -- this would not be dependent upon the level of participation from other players, for example, at 1am when there might be few people online to act as guards.
6) IMO, I do not think separate servers is a good idea from a purely business-reason stand point as well as for some reasons previously stated earlier in this forum.
7) Again IMO, designated "zones" or areas where PvP conflict can occur does not feel right for the game genre (both FPS and post-apoc). The level of "repercussions" should be inversely proportional to the distance one is from "civilization".
A few additional questions now:
How would PvP from one vehicle to another be handled? Would it even be possible? How would the spoils be divided from a defeated vehicle full of players? How would damage be distributed amongst the passengers (common sense, based on what side of the vehicle was hit? Or random?)
I hope they go with the servers thing, that there is maybe a 'hardcore' server, where pvp is just open. constant.
but also a server where there is a consent system, like star wars galaxies /duel, perhaps also with danger zones where it is consent, to make them feel more dangerous, unsafe, but they have the choice whether or not to go to these zones so there is still consent.
I believe I would probably play on both servers with different sorts of characters.
And agree with what others have said, that in a post-apocolyptic world , it just fits to always have that danger there.
A bounty board for reporting up tkers who can then be hunted for reward, maybe kudos poinst of some sort for a city faction, or other perks for killing pkers. I feel if people were killed respectfully, they wouldnt necessarily report, if people are griefed or killed badly, they'd report. As a sort of, catharsis for dead players. Because with open pvp, a lot of responsibility is on players to respect one another.
Originally posted by Dem1urge A few additional questions now: How would PvP from one vehicle to another be handled? Would it even be possible? How would the spoils be divided from a defeated vehicle full of players? How would damage be distributed amongst the passengers (common sense, based on what side of the vehicle was hit? Or random?) Additional ideas? Comments?
I believe that PvP from one vehicle to the other will be possible. They can do it in Battlefield 2, so what not in Fallen Earth? Spoils would have to use whatever system is used. I like a free loot system (meaning anyone can loot, even those that weren't involved), but some can feel griefed by such a system. Damage should be done from side of the vehicle that was hit, though random or evenly distributed could work.
One server would be best overall. Look at EVE Online, great storyline because they only have to focus on 1 server. If they had to do more then they wouldn't be able to follow it as well and the world would be more static. Look at the two "storylines" in SWG. It was what the majority of the servers did that mattered. If your server did different, it didn't matter.
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I've agreed with I think everything he wrote. I especially like the idea of a couple of the things (and wish to add on)
1) Being killed by LE and having them loot you, yes it might build up in the database, however I dont think they should be deleted right off the bat. Heres what im thniking. Say an LE kills you and loots you. This stuff would then be transferred to a nearby base (sheriffs office etc) for holding. It would be there for a certain amount of time under lock and key of course before it would be sold or otherwise distributed out into the world of FE (in real world terms this could mean deleting it). This gives the character a chance to get his stuff back if it was really worth the trouble. (Note this would probably need the help of a couple friends and not to mention some new equipment. IMO if you mess with LE in a well established town getting your stuff back should be possible but not the same as a normal run of the mill corpse run.
Now this idea could be used for any organized faction "guard" IE a bodyguard at a raider camp could do the same thing.
2) I love the idea of concealing / protecting loot. Say you were carrying standard stuff with the exception of a key to a top secret weapons locker, this key would be easy to conceal and a character might not pass the skill check if he tried to search you. Also, the idea of "trapping" your weapons on your body is cool. This could be in the form of a biometric lock on a gun, if you pick it up, its fine, if a looter does - they get a nasty jolt. Of course there could be a check to override this but you'd need to have the right tools (expensive).
Then you could do a whole mess of items at different costs. IE Level IV biometric lock beats a BioKey ver 3.2 rock paper scissors, that whole bit.
anyways im tired of writing, keep the ideas coming guys
Originally posted by Cthulhuvong Also, you could have a distance from civilization at which you become full PvP. Say going 2 or 3 klicks (that would be kilometers for those that don't know) from any maintained building gets a message sent to you saying "You are enering the wastes" which tells you that you are about to enter a free PvP zone. This would make far out places more lawless while allowing for people to stick around civilized places unharmed. This would also allow raids on people traveling between places more than 5 klicks apart from each other and would make small outposts along trade routes very valuable for multiple reasons.
To start off with I do like PVP , just not in RPG's usually. Most of my friends are split between - couldn't care less about PVP, or enjoy controlled PVP like in DAOC or WOW.
Alternate rules servers are a good thing. They allow for multiple gameplay styles. The same goes for flagging, it allows more versatility in how you want to play.
The main reason i don't care for PVP much in MMORPG's is ganking and griefing. I have yet to see a game with a system that really does much if anything to prevent it.
Loot on kill i am totally against, though on a seperate rules server I wouldn't care one way or the other. My two main reasons are.
1 that I see it as a huge farming issue aka IGE. Far too easy to exploit and for myself and most people i know a major turnoff in an MMO. 2 Nothing quite like the feeling of working for weeks or months gearing up only to see a good chunk of it go to someone else just because i got ganked.
The "safe" zone idea. I have yet to see it work in any game decently enough to even fathom that it could be done in any game. Lineage 2 being a prime example. Get attacked just outside the city and if you were too powerful for them they just ran inside the "safe" zone and mocked you where you couldn't attack them and the guards couldn't see them.
XP for killing players. Totally against that since it is far too easy to exploit. Seperate PVP abilities and such I am against as well unless there is a way for people who don't PVP to also gain the same benifits in another way. My reason for this is from seeing what happened with DAOC and realm abilities. It go to the point where unless you did RVR all the time you may as well forget ever doing it because you had no chance vs players with realm abilities who did RVR all the time. Less fun for everyone when it gets imbalanced like that. Again i go to seperate rules servers as an answer to that as well.
The class balance spiral of doom. Before it got cancelled one of the Imperator devs said the main reason they weren't including PVP was because of all the headaches it caused in DAOC with class balance. Both DAOC and WOW are stuck in the class balance dillema, constantly trying to balance PVP vs PVE and never succeeding.
A big part of i think is the initial design of the game and the fact that they don't make characters and mobs out of the same cloth so to speak. They build mobs differently than they do characters which right there makes fighting mobs and fighting players two entirely different things. Build the mobs the same way a character is built and you level the playing field between the two types of combat a lot.
Another dev from Vanguard or EQ ( and no i don't have links to any of this unfortunately) mentioned that doing PVP and PVE was essentially designing two games instead of one manpower wise. Which to balance PVP vs PVE is what you really need to do. Have two different rulesets for combat. The reasoning behind this is that so when you change something in one it doesn't affect the other. This makes things easier in the long run since a change to PVE doesn't affect PVP or vise versa and cuts down on everyone in the community from complaining about a change to something they may never use affecting them.
I tend to prefer co op servers myself just for the fact that i can end up grouping with more friends that way. Since they can play whatever and no one has to give up playing a race or class they want to just to be able to hang out with friends.
Barring that a flag PVP with built faction would be preferrable by me for doing things like the keep raids in DAOC and PVP in the pvp areas. It would allow me to look like I want and play what I want and choose what side I want to be on. Not on a whim or because of the character creation screen but because of what i have done in game.
I like choices in my MMORPG. The choice to PVP or not PVP being the main one.
Nearly full PvP is, in my opinion, vital to the survivalistic feel Fallen Earth wants to portray. As for dealing with grief...
There are two types of grief I've seen in MMORPG's concerning PvP. Griefing lower level players, and annoyance griefing because you CAN'T be killed. I hate both types, and I think there is a way to get rid of both.
Annoyance grief is someone doing something like following you around and bugging you, saying immature things, and just making your game experience worse. They do this because they cannot be killed. There is an easy fix to this... full PvP. If someone is pissing you off, kill them. Easy as that. However, then you have people killing lower level characters.. to fix that, implement safe zones. Not many, mind you... but a few of the starting areas should be safe from PvP. However, make everything other than these newbie cities full PvP.
Fallen Earth is supposed to be a harsh, unforgiving world. Lets keep that spirit alive with nearly full PvP. Each encounter with another real player should keep you on edge because they -could- attack you. For many of you who think full PvP is bad, look at Shadowbane... full PvP except in cities. Believe it or not, I was killed less in that game than other games with partial PvP. Why? I'm not sure, but I think it had to do with the mindset full PvP creates. You can't just run around killing everyone without pissing off entire clans who will hunt you down and make your life a living hell.
Shadowbane is sorta a bad comparison, though, because I don't agree with safe zones in EVERY city. Kinda lame if you ask me.. but safe zones in a newbie city, sure. Let people get used to the game before they can be ganked.
If you don't give us full PvP, give us a PvP server as an option please. I would MUCH rather play on a PvP server given the choice, I simply can't stand idiots acting high and mighty because they know I can't attack them.
I like PvP only when it's meaningful and requires strategy. Capturing bases and such, for example, especially if the outcome effects the world as a whole.
Looting in PvP is troublesome and would deter many players from the game. A game is supposed to be an entertaining activity. Losing an item that took quite a few hours to acquire in just a single battle is not entertaining, instead it can be really frustrating and would increase the tendency for mindless PvP where players kill other players with no story-related reason. Other types of bonus (factional bonuses perhaps?) can be considered, but penalising a PvP death is simply not fun.
Open PvP has the following list of problems that should be dealt with: a) High-level characters killing lowbies that have no chance of fighting back. b) Using PvP to block players of an opposing faction to enjoy certain content.
Open PvP is fine by me, but it can be troublesome if the game is level-based and a player can defeat me with me standing no chance, because he's quite a few levels above me. Some sort of penalty for such actions may be required or the death penalties not being valid. For example, if it costs credits to revive your character when killed by an NPC, a PvP death shouldn't require so.
As for (b) I'll use World of Warcraft as an example. The only PvP death penalty is doing a corpse run as a ghost. No big deal and I don't mind at all, but sometimes players do a "corpse camp". They wait for your resurrection just to kill you instantly afterwards, with no real hope of you fighting back. Essentially, your spend up to half an hour idly doing nothing, experiencing no content at all, with the hope that the other player will finally decide to give you a break. This is a waste of your playing time and certainly not entertaining.
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I agree that being able to loot an item in one battle that took your opponent 5 hours to find/construct is annoying. Neocron had a system much like this, where a random item from your quickbelt, which served as a hotbar, would fall to the ground when you were killed by a player. Naturally, your best items were in your quickbar so there was a chance you'd lose your prize weapon. The only problem I see with not allowing looting of some sort is that it makes PvP trivial and unthreatening. If you don't lose anything in a fight you'd be more prone to wreckless fighting, while losing your precious pistol might make you think twice about who you picked on.
What do you suggest for keeping the annoyance factor down but keeping PvP a real threat? Faction awards, like in World of Warcraft, are fine and all but it is still just a vague concept.. you're merely raising a number. I'd rather have an actual item, or food, or whatever my opponent was carrying than a few faction points. In post apocalyptic movies, a primary reason for attacking someone was because you were in need of supplies. Not being able to loot an opponent would kill this feel.
Too often in new MMORPG's I see catering to new players and excessive pampering. WoW is a perfect example, where death means almost nothing and you can always teleport back to a home point at any time. There is NO feeling of any real danger because of these two factors, only slight annoyance. Some would say the game is more enjoyable because of this, but its simply not the mindset (I hope) that FE wants to cultivate. A harsh world, real threats, real losses from dying, real rewards for PvP... sure it'll drive away the newbs but damn would it be grand.
Again, best solution I think for the problem is at least two servers. Let all the casual gamers have a non-PvP or flaggable PvP server, while the hardcore fans can go at it in full PvP.
Is Fallen Earth is going to have a much more twitch-orientated combat system, similar to a first-person shooter, and would character development be based much more around other elements of gameplay such as the mutant abilities or the aquisition of technology and equipment?
Objectives of the Game
For me, the main objectives of the game would be primarily survival, but also to create a dominant and influential force within the context of re-building society. This would involve, for example, technological development, aquiring resources, territorial control; all things that could benefit from an open PvP mechanism.
PvP Locations and Safe Zones
The Hoover Dam Enclave, as one of the few remaining sites of human civilisation, should serve as the sole safety zone in PvP.
Small outposts and other settlements would not serve as non-PvP areas since they are lawless. In fact, I think that these outposts would be better to serve in a faction-based PvP meta game.
With so many spoils out there, the notoriously dangerous wilderness would be open PvP in my opinion.
Bottom Feeding
One solution would be to make it near to impossible to identify who the beginners are. By the time they leave their safe zone, they should hard to tell apart from the advanced players.
Using PvP to prevent players of an opposing faction access to certain content
Isn't this the exact type of thing we want to see in Fallen Earth? If I was salvaging technology from a junkyard I discovered, am I supposed to allow my enemies to waltz in and help themselves? If I discovered an abandoned base filled with equipment and supplies, shouldn't I get to garrison and defend it?
Corpse Looting
I share the concern that looting would involve the loss of equipment that took effort and time to aquire. Most notably the loss of my weapons and armor.
I think there should be restrictions on the items I drop when I get killed in PvP. Things I should drop are my replaceables -- supplies such as food and water -- since I should be able to aquire more near the respawn area. Also, I think "technology" such as componants or dna sequences -- although maybe not completed items -- should be droppable. However my tools and equipment for example my weapons and armor shouldn't get lost in this manner.
Good points, especially your "Bottom Feeding" solution. I've always been a strong supporter of a '/anonymous' option that hides your class and level from everyone. I think it is unrealistic to be able to get this information from someone you don't know, and it can be dangerous if you aren't very high level.
Perhaps looting rules could be different on PvP vs PvE servers? Again, I'll use Neocron as an example.. PvP servers had your inventory drop, while non-PvP servers did not... definately pleases both crowds. Only problem is whether or not they want to split the community like that, with two distinct servers.
All I know is if I kill someone, I'd want to take their clothing/armor/weapons moreso than whatever bread crumbs they had on them. If you're a loner and get killed, simply kill someone else to get some gear back. If you're part of a clan, the clan should have a horde of weapons and armor for you to leech from.
I like most of your ideas Adrir, but I'd differ from them I think.
First off, I don't like the bottom feeding Idea, because if you want to find someone to partner up with thats near your skill level to take down a bigger monster, it'll be incredibly difficult to find someone if its masked or hidden. I did like how /anon in EQ worked however... So I don't know much of an alternative. There will pretty much always be ganking to some extent in PvP games. If there is pvp with a limit level range, such as in EQ1 servers, it will be easier to take down a dude 5 levels lower than you rather than 5 levels higher. Not much can be done to get rid of ganking, but game rules could always discourage it.
Here are my idea for doing so:
1. Ranks. When you kill someone much weaker than you, it will be recorded, unless of course they engaged you first. This won't have any actual effect on your stats or gameplay, but your rank may seem cowardice if your average kill level is 5 levels below.
My ideal pvp however would be some kind of mainly-uncontrolled (Meaning that there would be a level limit and a few safety zones, but other than that its anytime anyplace.) faction based PvP. I just think it would be fun to have a group if your friends run into a group of another faction and bust out the guns.
I am aware from the Sites FAQ that there will be Team Deathmatch and Team CTF matches in arenas, and I'm all for that, but in order to maintain the feel of the game, there should be some sort of outside pvp imho.
As for looting gear, I am against it. Those who are for it, I'd really like to know why... In most MMORPGs, it takes a long time to earn what you use, and for it to be lost in the matter of moments is just terrible. Lets say you just killed a beast that was tough for you, and you could only do it because of your gear, and then while you nurse your wounds, BAM one shot kill, and you lose your hard earned gear and your ability to kill a monster of that difficulty.
The problem with this is that the mobs would have to be easy enough to kill with minimal gear after being "looted." So when you have your full gear, all this stuff would be very easy...
If there were some gear looting limitations, such as 1 piece because thats all you could salavage off the laser-fried corpse, then thats fair, or some kind of no-drop system...
unfortuantly the ranking system would not work as there are no levels in the game. the Faq section of www.fallenearth.com has quite a few tidbits of info on how the pvp system will probably work.
Originally Posted By: Darkaster First off, I don't like the bottom feeding Idea, because if you want to find someone to partner up with thats near your skill level to take down a bigger monster, it'll be incredibly difficult to find someone if its masked or hidden.
Yeah, I agree here, although;
There may be another mechanism that could work in conjunction with this to make my bottom feeding solution viable: A "job board" interface that players could open when they are searching for people to group with.
Players would be able to sign themselves up onto it when they are looking for group, listing their skills and equipment. They could even prevent certain factions or players viewing it.
It could then generate a query of people to contact, and hey presto, you've found yourself a partner
Something that I would like to see is the ability to hide from other players out in the bad lands. I always hate when other people see you on the map and come over just to fight. I think it would be more realistic if while scavenging you see some one in the distance and you hide, making yourself invisible on maps.
To add to your idea wolph, I think there should NOT be a "target nearest" or "scroll through targets" option when it comes to real players. Maybe you could keep these options in for PvE, but in PvP it makes a hiding completely useless. For example, in Star Wars Galaxies the environment was lush enough for snipers to hide in, but all you had to do to defeat this was spam "target nearest" as you walked through the forest and it would instantly find anyone hiding. Lame.
I say either remove the option alltogether, which might be annoying for PvE... or, have certain 'hide' skills that remove you from the 'target nearest' queue.
I have to say, I go away for a few weeks and there are a bunch of greate ideas coming out here.
A few of you touched on the post-apoc feel and how it should be used in making the game feel more like that. Don't know whos gonna get ya, where your next meal is coming from. If you are out of supplies and far from a town, attacking that next traveller may seem like a good idea.
For looting, I believe we should be able to loot stuff from players, but its hard to do that without ruining the fun. One thing is that supplies (water, food, bullets, etc) and tech (scrap, electronics, dna samples, etc) should have a chance, maybe 50%, that they are looted. Clothing and other easily gainable items should be maybe 15-25% chance, and general weapons and armor have a 10% chance. you could maybe choose a few items that are unlootable.
As for PvP in general, I have said this before and will say it again and again. PvP should not be faction-based. Most mainstream games do this (WoW, SWG, etc) and it take away from the fun factor as well as the post-apoc feel. There should be factions (as there are always in the world) as well as clans/guilds for players, but being a lone player shouldn't make it harder for you to PvP.
As for the cycling through targets, that should be taken out. It sucks a lot for combat, but its just better to the general game. And as for PvP and PvE being separate games that make it harder for the Devs to balance out, why make them separate? Dungeons and Dragons (the RPG, not online game) has one rules set for all. NPCs and PCs can be made with almost all classes and creatures because of this.
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Comments
I just watched all the Mad Max movies this morning. I like full PvP!
I read EVERY post on this thread and there are a lot of good ideas. Let me also say that I have waited for someone to write an MMO such as this since Fallout and Fallout 2! And, just a warning, this is a longish post.
Like someone else I read, I'm impressed by the level of maturity displayed during this discussion. It only makes me want to play this game even more. I could actually handle being PKd by someone who wouldn't verbally harass me in addition to killing me (e.g. U sux0r!!!!11!!).
While I typically do not PvP, I do recognize the need for it especially in a post-apocalyptic game such as FE -- lots of danger... everywhere. Here are my ideas for a PvP system, all these are brain storming type ideas that hopefully might spark an even better idea from someone on this forum or the Devs:
1) Allow PvP by anyone and anywhere. DO include arenas anyway, perhaps offering money or loot as an inticement to use these while providing entertainment for those watching. Those who wish to watch would have to pay to watch from the "stands" and the winner would take a lion's share of the purse (while the remaining goes to the "system"). Sort of a roman gladiator thing.
2) Players pariticipating in PvP in town areas where there is law enforcement (LE) should be "dealt with" by said LE and any players in the area. Players killing LE would "mark" them as KoS by the respawned LE but not for other players. Players killed by LE would be looted by the LE (although, I'm sure for database size sake, they would have to delete those loot objects, else they'd continue building up). This could reduce griefers. And griefers who do it outside of town would be considered Raiders and deserve whatever they get.
3) Give each object in the game, including players, "hit locations" and "hitpoints" and "Armor Level" and designate something on the body of the object a one-shot kill location or, at least, particularly vulnerable to attack. For example, everyone knows that, on a humaniod non-mutant creature, the head is usually the kill location. If you have FPS skill to do this, you deserve the kill and the rewards thereof. Also, I can see this opening up all kinds of RP scenarios... such as knee-capping someone on a "deserted road" and parlaying with them for their life or maybe knocking them out and looting their "unconscious" body. Damage to certain locations could limit mobility, etc. etc.
4) Give loot objects a "to find" value on the corpse. The time spent looting the body would increase the "to find" values on the body and be modified by a "perception" skill perhaps. That way, there is a chance something could be left behind on the corpse that someone didn't notice or didn't have the time to notice. Maybe also incorporate a "hide object" skill that could decrease the "to find" value of an object or two that a player wants to hide on his/her person. Loot items not collected by someone after a period of time will loose them to entropy. I don't know how practical this would be though, from a coding standpoint. If there are lots of corpses, game lag could increase and whatnot. These "to find" values would be good to use while "scavenging" ruins or "abandoned" complexes.
5) Allow players to booby trap their bodies or their loot. This could be balanced by giving the protected object an increased "use" time where the player would have to be careful not to trip the trap on himself. This would also help keep griefers down and PvP would become a lot more interesting if the PvP reason is loot-driven. Of course, there would have to be skills or devices that could help counter this but never, IMO, at 100% (Risk=Reward: Looting should not be risk-less either!). This would be especially handy as merchant-type people would like to protect their goods when traveling from place to place. I like the NPC Guards idea as well -- this would not be dependent upon the level of participation from other players, for example, at 1am when there might be few people online to act as guards.
6) IMO, I do not think separate servers is a good idea from a purely business-reason stand point as well as for some reasons previously stated earlier in this forum.
7) Again IMO, designated "zones" or areas where PvP conflict can occur does not feel right for the game genre (both FPS and post-apoc). The level of "repercussions" should be inversely proportional to the distance one is from "civilization".
A few additional questions now:
How would PvP from one vehicle to another be handled? Would it even be possible? How would the spoils be divided from a defeated vehicle full of players? How would damage be distributed amongst the passengers (common sense, based on what side of the vehicle was hit? Or random?)
Additional ideas? Comments?
I hope they go with the servers thing, that there is maybe a 'hardcore' server, where pvp is just open. constant.
but also a server where there is a consent system, like star wars galaxies /duel, perhaps also with danger zones where it is consent, to make them feel more dangerous, unsafe, but they have the choice whether or not to go to these zones so there is still consent.
I believe I would probably play on both servers with different sorts of characters.
And agree with what others have said, that in a post-apocolyptic world , it just fits to always have that danger there.
A bounty board for reporting up tkers who can then be hunted for reward, maybe kudos poinst of some sort for a city faction, or other perks for killing pkers. I feel if people were killed respectfully, they wouldnt necessarily report, if people are griefed or killed badly, they'd report. As a sort of, catharsis for dead players. Because with open pvp, a lot of responsibility is on players to respect one another.
One server would be best overall. Look at EVE Online, great storyline because they only have to focus on 1 server. If they had to do more then they wouldn't be able to follow it as well and the world would be more static. Look at the two "storylines" in SWG. It was what the majority of the servers did that mattered. If your server did different, it didn't matter.
Waiting For: something good
Games Tried: SWTOR, Star Trek Online, EQ, EQ2, Earth and Beyond, Planetside, Lineage 2, Eve Online, WoW, City of Heroes, City of Villians, Auto Assault, Fallen Earth
Star Wars: Galaxies - Ibra Olasi (Valcyn Server) [Dead, screw you SOE]
Wow...I like Dem1urge's ideas...
I've agreed with I think everything he wrote. I especially like the idea of a couple of the things (and wish to add on)
1) Being killed by LE and having them loot you, yes it might build up in the database, however I dont think they should be deleted right off the bat. Heres what im thniking. Say an LE kills you and loots you. This stuff would then be transferred to a nearby base (sheriffs office etc) for holding. It would be there for a certain amount of time under lock and key of course before it would be sold or otherwise distributed out into the world of FE (in real world terms this could mean deleting it). This gives the character a chance to get his stuff back if it was really worth the trouble. (Note this would probably need the help of a couple friends and not to mention some new equipment. IMO if you mess with LE in a well established town getting your stuff back should be possible but not the same as a normal run of the mill corpse run.
Now this idea could be used for any organized faction "guard" IE a bodyguard at a raider camp could do the same thing.
2) I love the idea of concealing / protecting loot. Say you were carrying standard stuff with the exception of a key to a top secret weapons locker, this key would be easy to conceal and a character might not pass the skill check if he tried to search you. Also, the idea of "trapping" your weapons on your body is cool. This could be in the form of a biometric lock on a gun, if you pick it up, its fine, if a looter does - they get a nasty jolt. Of course there could be a check to override this but you'd need to have the right tools (expensive).
Then you could do a whole mess of items at different costs. IE Level IV biometric lock beats a
BioKey ver 3.2 rock paper scissors, that whole bit.
anyways im tired of writing, keep the ideas coming guys
roleplay server wld be nice too
the point about seperate servers/ seperate story is a good one.
There are serious plus points to ONE server.
serious plus points to having servers for specific needs/wants
i was thinking like a rp servers is if u go out in wildness then its nothing pvp but if u turn the pvp on then u can be attacked.
pvp is like you go out of town then then u get shot in the head as simpel is that.
and when can i see the new cars and......
i am so exited!!!!
Always do the right thing
So excited we can barely understand him!
___________________________
The Golden Rule.
Risk vs. Reward
yeah good ida that would be cool like eve online!
Always do the right thing
Always do the right thing
To start off with I do like PVP , just not in RPG's usually. Most of my friends are split between - couldn't care less about PVP, or enjoy controlled PVP like in DAOC or WOW.
Alternate rules servers are a good thing. They allow for multiple gameplay styles. The same goes for flagging, it allows more versatility in how you want to play.
The main reason i don't care for PVP much in MMORPG's is ganking and griefing. I have yet to see a game with a system that really does much if anything to prevent it.
Loot on kill i am totally against, though on a seperate rules server I wouldn't care one way or the other. My two main reasons are.
1 that I see it as a huge farming issue aka IGE. Far too easy to exploit and for myself and most people i know a major turnoff in an MMO.
2 Nothing quite like the feeling of working for weeks or months gearing up only to see a good chunk of it go to someone else just because i got ganked.
The "safe" zone idea. I have yet to see it work in any game decently enough to even fathom that it could be done in any game. Lineage 2 being a prime example. Get attacked just outside the city and if you were too powerful for them they just ran inside the "safe" zone and mocked you where you couldn't attack them and the guards couldn't see them.
XP for killing players. Totally against that since it is far too easy to exploit. Seperate PVP abilities and such I am against as well unless there is a way for people who don't PVP to also gain the same benifits in another way. My reason for this is from seeing what happened with DAOC and realm abilities. It go to the point where unless you did RVR all the time you may as well forget ever doing it because you had no chance vs players with realm abilities who did RVR all the time. Less fun for everyone when it gets imbalanced like that. Again i go to seperate rules servers as an answer to that as well.
The class balance spiral of doom. Before it got cancelled one of the Imperator devs said the main reason they weren't including PVP was because of all the headaches it caused in DAOC with class balance. Both DAOC and WOW are stuck in the class balance dillema, constantly trying to balance PVP vs PVE and never succeeding.
A big part of i think is the initial design of the game and the fact that they don't make characters and mobs out of the same cloth so to speak. They build mobs differently than they do characters which right there makes fighting mobs and fighting players two entirely different things. Build the mobs the same way a character is built and you level the playing field between the two types of combat a lot.
Another dev from Vanguard or EQ ( and no i don't have links to any of this unfortunately) mentioned that doing PVP and PVE was essentially designing two games instead of one manpower wise. Which to balance PVP vs PVE is what you really need to do. Have two different rulesets for combat. The reasoning behind this is that so when you change something in one it doesn't affect the other. This makes things easier in the long run since a change to PVE doesn't affect PVP or vise versa and cuts down on everyone in the community from complaining about a change to something they may never use affecting them.
I tend to prefer co op servers myself just for the fact that i can end up grouping with more friends that way. Since they can play whatever and no one has to give up playing a race or class they want to just to be able to hang out with friends.
Barring that a flag PVP with built faction would be preferrable by me for doing things like the keep raids in DAOC and PVP in the pvp areas. It would allow me to look like I want and play what I want and choose what side I want to be on. Not on a whim or because of the character creation screen but because of what i have done in game.
I like choices in my MMORPG. The choice to PVP or not PVP being the main one.
Nearly full PvP is, in my opinion, vital to the survivalistic feel Fallen Earth wants to portray. As for dealing with grief...
There are two types of grief I've seen in MMORPG's concerning PvP. Griefing lower level players, and annoyance griefing because you CAN'T be killed. I hate both types, and I think there is a way to get rid of both.
Annoyance grief is someone doing something like following you around and bugging you, saying immature things, and just making your game experience worse. They do this because they cannot be killed. There is an easy fix to this... full PvP. If someone is pissing you off, kill them. Easy as that. However, then you have people killing lower level characters.. to fix that, implement safe zones. Not many, mind you... but a few of the starting areas should be safe from PvP. However, make everything other than these newbie cities full PvP.
Fallen Earth is supposed to be a harsh, unforgiving world. Lets keep that spirit alive with nearly full PvP. Each encounter with another real player should keep you on edge because they -could- attack you. For many of you who think full PvP is bad, look at Shadowbane... full PvP except in cities. Believe it or not, I was killed less in that game than other games with partial PvP. Why? I'm not sure, but I think it had to do with the mindset full PvP creates. You can't just run around killing everyone without pissing off entire clans who will hunt you down and make your life a living hell.
Shadowbane is sorta a bad comparison, though, because I don't agree with safe zones in EVERY city. Kinda lame if you ask me.. but safe zones in a newbie city, sure. Let people get used to the game before they can be ganked.
If you don't give us full PvP, give us a PvP server as an option please. I would MUCH rather play on a PvP server given the choice, I simply can't stand idiots acting high and mighty because they know I can't attack them.
http://www.fallenearth.se - Your source for Fallen Earth information
I like PvP only when it's meaningful and requires strategy. Capturing bases and such, for example, especially if the outcome effects the world as a whole.
Looting in PvP is troublesome and would deter many players from the game. A game is supposed to be an entertaining activity. Losing an item that took quite a few hours to acquire in just a single battle is not entertaining, instead it can be really frustrating and would increase the tendency for mindless PvP where players kill other players with no story-related reason. Other types of bonus (factional bonuses perhaps?) can be considered, but penalising a PvP death is simply not fun.
Open PvP has the following list of problems that should be dealt with:
a) High-level characters killing lowbies that have no chance of fighting back.
b) Using PvP to block players of an opposing faction to enjoy certain content.
Open PvP is fine by me, but it can be troublesome if the game is level-based and a player can defeat me with me standing no chance, because he's quite a few levels above me. Some sort of penalty for such actions may be required or the death penalties not being valid. For example, if it costs credits to revive your character when killed by an NPC, a PvP death shouldn't require so.
As for (b) I'll use World of Warcraft as an example. The only PvP death penalty is doing a corpse run as a ghost. No big deal and I don't mind at all, but sometimes players do a "corpse camp". They wait for your resurrection just to kill you instantly afterwards, with no real hope of you fighting back. Essentially, your spend up to half an hour idly doing nothing, experiencing no content at all, with the hope that the other player will finally decide to give you a break. This is a waste of your playing time and certainly not entertaining.
Currently playing:
* City of Heroes: Deggial, Assault Rifle/Devices Blaster. Server: Defiant.
* City of Villains: Snakeroot, Plant/Thorns Dominator. Server: Defiant.
I agree that being able to loot an item in one battle that took your opponent 5 hours to find/construct is annoying. Neocron had a system much like this, where a random item from your quickbelt, which served as a hotbar, would fall to the ground when you were killed by a player. Naturally, your best items were in your quickbar so there was a chance you'd lose your prize weapon. The only problem I see with not allowing looting of some sort is that it makes PvP trivial and unthreatening. If you don't lose anything in a fight you'd be more prone to wreckless fighting, while losing your precious pistol might make you think twice about who you picked on.
What do you suggest for keeping the annoyance factor down but keeping PvP a real threat? Faction awards, like in World of Warcraft, are fine and all but it is still just a vague concept.. you're merely raising a number. I'd rather have an actual item, or food, or whatever my opponent was carrying than a few faction points. In post apocalyptic movies, a primary reason for attacking someone was because you were in need of supplies. Not being able to loot an opponent would kill this feel.
Too often in new MMORPG's I see catering to new players and excessive pampering. WoW is a perfect example, where death means almost nothing and you can always teleport back to a home point at any time. There is NO feeling of any real danger because of these two factors, only slight annoyance. Some would say the game is more enjoyable because of this, but its simply not the mindset (I hope) that FE wants to cultivate. A harsh world, real threats, real losses from dying, real rewards for PvP... sure it'll drive away the newbs but damn would it be grand.
Again, best solution I think for the problem is at least two servers. Let all the casual gamers have a non-PvP or flaggable PvP server, while the hardcore fans can go at it in full PvP.
http://www.fallenearth.se - Your source for Fallen Earth information
Is Fallen Earth is going to have a much more twitch-orientated combat system, similar to a first-person shooter, and would character development be based much more around other elements of gameplay such as the mutant abilities or the aquisition of technology and equipment?
Objectives of the Game
For me, the main objectives of the game would be primarily survival, but also to create a dominant and influential force within the context of re-building society. This would involve, for example, technological development, aquiring resources, territorial control; all things that could benefit from an open PvP mechanism.
PvP Locations and Safe Zones
The Hoover Dam Enclave, as one of the few remaining sites of human civilisation, should serve as the sole safety zone in PvP.
Small outposts and other settlements would not serve as non-PvP areas since they are lawless. In fact, I think that these outposts would be better to serve in a faction-based PvP meta game.
With so many spoils out there, the notoriously dangerous wilderness would be open PvP in my opinion.
Bottom Feeding
One solution would be to make it near to impossible to identify who the beginners are. By the time they leave their safe zone, they should hard to tell apart from the advanced players.
Using PvP to prevent players of an opposing faction access to certain content
Isn't this the exact type of thing we want to see in Fallen Earth? If I was salvaging technology from a junkyard I discovered, am I supposed to allow my enemies to waltz in and help themselves? If I discovered an abandoned base filled with equipment and supplies, shouldn't I get to garrison and defend it?
Corpse Looting
I share the concern that looting would involve the loss of equipment that took effort and time to aquire. Most notably the loss of my weapons and armor.
I think there should be restrictions on the items I drop when I get killed in PvP. Things I should drop are my replaceables -- supplies such as food and water -- since I should be able to aquire more near the respawn area. Also, I think "technology" such as componants or dna sequences -- although maybe not completed items -- should be droppable. However my tools and equipment for example my weapons and armor shouldn't get lost in this manner.
Good points, especially your "Bottom Feeding" solution. I've always been a strong supporter of a '/anonymous' option that hides your class and level from everyone. I think it is unrealistic to be able to get this information from someone you don't know, and it can be dangerous if you aren't very high level.
Perhaps looting rules could be different on PvP vs PvE servers? Again, I'll use Neocron as an example.. PvP servers had your inventory drop, while non-PvP servers did not... definately pleases both crowds. Only problem is whether or not they want to split the community like that, with two distinct servers.
All I know is if I kill someone, I'd want to take their clothing/armor/weapons moreso than whatever bread crumbs they had on them. If you're a loner and get killed, simply kill someone else to get some gear back. If you're part of a clan, the clan should have a horde of weapons and armor for you to leech from.
http://www.fallenearth.se - Your source for Fallen Earth information
I like most of your ideas Adrir, but I'd differ from them I think.
First off, I don't like the bottom feeding Idea, because if you want to find someone to partner up with thats near your skill level to take down a bigger monster, it'll be incredibly difficult to find someone if its masked or hidden. I did like how /anon in EQ worked however... So I don't know much of an alternative. There will pretty much always be ganking to some extent in PvP games. If there is pvp with a limit level range, such as in EQ1 servers, it will be easier to take down a dude 5 levels lower than you rather than 5 levels higher. Not much can be done to get rid of ganking, but game rules could always discourage it.
Here are my idea for doing so:
1. Ranks. When you kill someone much weaker than you, it will be recorded, unless of course they engaged you first. This won't have any actual effect on your stats or gameplay, but your rank may seem cowardice if your average kill level is 5 levels below.
My ideal pvp however would be some kind of mainly-uncontrolled (Meaning that there would be a level limit and a few safety zones, but other than that its anytime anyplace.) faction based PvP. I just think it would be fun to have a group if your friends run into a group of another faction and bust out the guns.
I am aware from the Sites FAQ that there will be Team Deathmatch and Team CTF matches in arenas, and I'm all for that, but in order to maintain the feel of the game, there should be some sort of outside pvp imho.
As for looting gear, I am against it. Those who are for it, I'd really like to know why... In most MMORPGs, it takes a long time to earn what you use, and for it to be lost in the matter of moments is just terrible. Lets say you just killed a beast that was tough for you, and you could only do it because of your gear, and then while you nurse your wounds, BAM one shot kill, and you lose your hard earned gear and your ability to kill a monster of that difficulty.
The problem with this is that the mobs would have to be easy enough to kill with minimal gear after being "looted." So when you have your full gear, all this stuff would be very easy...
If there were some gear looting limitations, such as 1 piece because thats all you could salavage off the laser-fried corpse, then thats fair, or some kind of no-drop system...
Well there will be a distinct difference in power between a beginner and a veteran player, I'm sure there will be some way to grade over-all strength.
Yeah, I agree here, although;
There may be another mechanism that could work in conjunction with this to make my bottom feeding solution viable: A "job board" interface that players could open when they are searching for people to group with.
Players would be able to sign themselves up onto it when they are looking for group, listing their skills and equipment. They could even prevent certain factions or players viewing it.
It could then generate a query of people to contact, and hey presto, you've found yourself a partner
Wow, I love that idea Adrir!
Good thinkin'!
To add to your idea wolph, I think there should NOT be a "target nearest" or "scroll through targets" option when it comes to real players. Maybe you could keep these options in for PvE, but in PvP it makes a hiding completely useless. For example, in Star Wars Galaxies the environment was lush enough for snipers to hide in, but all you had to do to defeat this was spam "target nearest" as you walked through the forest and it would instantly find anyone hiding. Lame.
I say either remove the option alltogether, which might be annoying for PvE... or, have certain 'hide' skills that remove you from the 'target nearest' queue.
http://www.fallenearth.se - Your source for Fallen Earth information
I have to say, I go away for a few weeks and there are a bunch of greate ideas coming out here.
A few of you touched on the post-apoc feel and how it should be used in making the game feel more like that. Don't know whos gonna get ya, where your next meal is coming from. If you are out of supplies and far from a town, attacking that next traveller may seem like a good idea.
For looting, I believe we should be able to loot stuff from players, but its hard to do that without ruining the fun. One thing is that supplies (water, food, bullets, etc) and tech (scrap, electronics, dna samples, etc) should have a chance, maybe 50%, that they are looted. Clothing and other easily gainable items should be maybe 15-25% chance, and general weapons and armor have a 10% chance. you could maybe choose a few items that are unlootable.
As for PvP in general, I have said this before and will say it again and again. PvP should not be faction-based. Most mainstream games do this (WoW, SWG, etc) and it take away from the fun factor as well as the post-apoc feel. There should be factions (as there are always in the world) as well as clans/guilds for players, but being a lone player shouldn't make it harder for you to PvP.
As for the cycling through targets, that should be taken out. It sucks a lot for combat, but its just better to the general game. And as for PvP and PvE being separate games that make it harder for the Devs to balance out, why make them separate? Dungeons and Dragons (the RPG, not online game) has one rules set for all. NPCs and PCs can be made with almost all classes and creatures because of this.
Waiting For: something good
Games Tried: SWTOR, Star Trek Online, EQ, EQ2, Earth and Beyond, Planetside, Lineage 2, Eve Online, WoW, City of Heroes, City of Villians, Auto Assault, Fallen Earth
Star Wars: Galaxies - Ibra Olasi (Valcyn Server) [Dead, screw you SOE]