Edgtho, one of the original ideas back near the beginning of this thread, and what I imagined for the "PvP" server, was more of a non-PvP areas in and around cities with high law enforcement (especially including the starting areas for new players) which would extent a few kilometers/miles from the city borders. You would get a warning saying "You are entering the wastelands (Full PvP)" or something similar to explain that they are entering the PvP area (the wastes outside of civilization). Second, there would be police patrols within and just outside of the edge of the non-PvP zone. These would be to catch raiders and griefers. And by police, I don't mean the troops that police Galaxies cities now, I mean the ones that where the police at the begining of the game, where it would take people nearly finished with their proffesion to do real damage to them and the raids would be exciting even if there were no opposing players in attendance. Those were true soldiers, not the crap they have now that can be taken down by most anyone.
Anyway, these would deter griefers, as would the amount of area needed to cover in order to grief. Since there would be no set areas where players would have to leave through (such as the town gate like in Linage 2, or between cliffs like AO), there would be a circle around the city with a large perimiter which would be impossible to guard if not working in large groups (50+).
Within these areas would be renewable resources (cheap resources that are unlimited). Outside would be slightly less available resources, until you hit far out in certain areas or abandoned places which are guarded by NPC or PC groups which have very rare resources (certain type of power source or certain vehicle piece) that are very limited in their amount (maybe 1 a day or less, think the Nightsister Braces in Galaxies). This does several things for the economy: One, it makes most items of the same quality, with the difference defined by crafter skill. I like this, as it makes combat more based on player/character skill than the items they own. Two, for better items crafters would either have to venture into more dangerous areas or have some one else harvest the resources for them (like in most games with crafting) and the more dangerous/rare an item is, the more expensive it will be. This will add in a player-made (my favorite type of anything in an mmo) barter and haggle system with nothing but the basic trade system they will already have being used. Also, most people will look different without accutally being different, and when someone has a Three, these warrior/harvesters will cut down on the griefers as they will be continually moving past them and will tire of them quickly (once in Lineage 2, I got up to the level needed and then went back and kicked the ass out of a griefer around a starter town who always harrased me). Four, if players are allowed to build their own towns or run NPC territories in the wild, these areas could become new havens which will have their own non-PvP zone if they so choose (though some sort of raid option would be cool too, to allow changes to the towns ownership). To cut down on the "Fort Krayt" phenomonon (building cities near or in areas of major interest) maybe player cities would only be in pre-designated areas (abandoned towns and ones still in use).
there are more affects to the economy and the game, but thats all I can think of right now (5am). More to come later.
Waiting For: something good Games Tried: SWTOR, Star Trek Online, EQ, EQ2, Earth and Beyond, Planetside, Lineage 2, Eve Online, WoW, City of Heroes, City of Villians, Auto Assault, Fallen Earth Star Wars: Galaxies - Ibra Olasi (Valcyn Server) [Dead, screw you SOE]
The idea of risk vs. reward is a very simple idea that just makes sense. I really think it should play a part in the economy, with the best resources in dangerous areas. EVE works this way and it is very popular with the playerbase. Of course, we've talked about this before, and Drycat mentioned that non-PvPers will want the entire game available to them in non-PvP areas.
This thread could really use a little direction from Icarus. You can quote their site all you want, but the site is terribly old and they've mentioned none of the ideas there are concrete. We've covered just about every viewpoint from hardcore PvP to no PvP and everything in between. If we at least knew partially how their system would work, we could pick that apart instead of the recycling our ideas are going through now..
I think the risk/reward theory works, but I am thinking some items should be lore/unique/no drop like more high end game standards. Though the idea of choosing a life style(in game) like a hunter of items who is hired or just sells them is pretty cool and goes along well with the apocalyptic theme
Originally posted by Cthulhuvong nobody should have to worry about the chance of being hijacked when traveling between cities. it is afterall just a game and it is made to be fun. not a noob slay fest, which it would become with only pvp.
I disagree. Travel in a post-apocalyptic setting should ALWAYS be dangerous. And if that trouble comes from other players, more the better because it would be more challanging.
"I've never said anything worth quoting." -Lord Drako
Originally posted by sinoth The idea of risk vs. reward is a very simple idea that just makes sense. I really think it should play a part in the economy, with the best resources in dangerous areas. EVE works this way and it is very popular with the playerbase. Of course, we've talked about this before, and Drycat mentioned that non-PvPers will want the entire game available to them in non-PvP areas. This thread could really use a little direction from Icarus. You can quote their site all you want, but the site is terribly old and they've mentioned none of the ideas there are concrete. We've covered just about every viewpoint from hardcore PvP to no PvP and everything in between. If we at least knew partially how their system would work, we could pick that apart instead of the recycling our ideas are going through now..
Actually, drycat says that PvPers want the best of both worlds. They want to do what they will in PvP areas and relax in the comfort of Non-PvP. Yet, they want the best the game has to offer in the PvP areas, because of this "risk-vs-reward" theory. The concept just intrigues me very much.
And I will explain why to you once more. PvPers initially say that PvP is for the challenge and adds to roleplaying. Once that it is established that they want it for those elements, next comes the fact that their risk is greater, so they should be rewarded beyond what a Non-PvP oriented player can expect in their "Non-PvP" areas. To me, placing the most economically rewarding elements/loot/resources/ content/whatever the case is, in a PvP area is just not fairly balanced, IMO.
I mean, if the intnetion is that PvP is for the challenge and the roleplaying, why should that make PvP rewarded ( content unavailable to other players that don't want to PvP) above and beyond the content available to the player that chooses not to? If you click on my name and read my posts in this section, you will see why I drive at this concept from an economic standpoint. My stance creates a balanced economy, while still rewarding PvPers(which I still find hard to swallow) for being PvPers. But it still provides the same content to Non-PvP types. I'll summarize breifly, once more:
You have a mine in a Non-PvP area with hi-end resources/loot/whatever at a certain quantity/availablity/whatever. It is available to anyone who is able to get to it/mine it/etc.. Now, you have a similiar mine, and similiar only in that it has the same kind of resources/loot/whatever in it. PvPers ( clans, individuals, whatever ) can stake sole claim over these resources.
So, basically the mine in the Non-PvP area has similiar resources, differeing quantities/differing regrowth time/whatever than the mine in the PvP area which has differeing quantities/differeing regrowth time/whatever. So, the PvPers are rewarded for PvPing in the sense they can make/extract/mine/whatever far more than could possibly be made at the other mine, but you still make the same content available to both players. The resources and content in SWG was available to everyone who could get to them. PvPers and Non-PvPers alike. The reasons the economy went sour on the server I was on in SWG were related to people exploiting the game, not because everyone could vie for the same resources/content/whatever. I'm sure we all have a list of things that went wrong there. Nevertheless, PvP will not solve exploits, just like Non-PvP will not solve exploits either.
Non-PvP areas have the content available to them, but in a lesser degree than the concentrations that could be found in the PvP area.
The reasoning behind this is that if you give everyone a little of the same, it hides the fact that you are giving one stratum of your population alot more of the same. This is a general statement, if you want to talk about it more, I'll be happy to.
But, right now I need to get my Silent Storm Sentinels fix.
The thing is that this game is going to be 7000+ sq miles. Its not like players are going to be running into each other every step of the way. Most will be empty space filled with NPCs. Rarely will you run across other players. When you go hunting in the wilds of Rori or Lok in Galaxies, what are the chances you will find another player?
If you do the PvP and non-PvP resource system you have to balance it perfectly. You have to add tons of reward for the high risk of a resource in a PvP area while you are basically giving players tons of reward for killing a few NPCs at most. If it isn't balanced right, either there will be few players at the PvP source, or the non-PvP sources. This doesn't hide the fact that one side is getting more than the other. Since the internet allows players to know where these resources are, they will quickly find out that one source has more than the other and there will be uproars on the boards (aren't there always).
SWG's economy staid inflated due to exploitation. But without the Exploitation, the economy was slowly shriking. The devs put up a Friday Feature about it, and when they looked at it they actually had too many money sinks, which helped remove the exploitation from the economy.
Waiting For: something good Games Tried: SWTOR, Star Trek Online, EQ, EQ2, Earth and Beyond, Planetside, Lineage 2, Eve Online, WoW, City of Heroes, City of Villians, Auto Assault, Fallen Earth Star Wars: Galaxies - Ibra Olasi (Valcyn Server) [Dead, screw you SOE]
Well, look at it this way. Regardless of whether you have all the hi/scarce/whatever they are, rewards in PvP areas or balanced between Non-PvP and PvP, the devs still must balance the system perfectly ( which, I am pretty sure that balancing an economy is never a perfect thing ) But, giving it all up to high risk and reward in PvP areas is not balanced either. Putting some of the resource, not an excessive amount in Non-PvP areas will only go so far. Which basically means that it is worth the time for a few or several persons to go there and extract/mine the resource. But, the PvP areas will have higher concetrations due to their geographical locations ( or whatever the case may be ). I agree, it is not without its flaws when you factor in the player base. hehe
I see where you are coming from. But I also see that either way you do it, there is going to be the same balancing issue.
So, sure I proposed this alternative because I was trying to find a middle ground that would satisfy both PvP and Non-PvP people and still instill some kind of risk-vs-reward. Believe me, I would prefer to have content available much the same way that SWG depicted it. Everyone has access to the same game content, with the exception being faction specific content. But, I don't know what the best system is. I can only think of fair methods in providing equal opportunity to explore the same content without forcing players hands. If you want to call it that. I hope they do have some kind of faction based system, that resembles SWG. The factions would have certain perks, and if I choose not to align myself with a faction, I am just missing out on the perks. I can live with that.
Analyzing is a good answer, but without a collection of data to appreciate on the economy you are putting in place, it won't help in implementing and balancing the various systems/resources/classes ability to produce currency at a specific rate/etc.. you designed. This includes systems designed to control inflation ( money sinks/etc.. ). Unfortunately, the best way to test this is with a large population of people. So, I can only hope that whatever system they decide to go with, that it will receive a good portion of the analysis that it deserves before it goes live.
I totally agree with you that it is not a simple matter. As far as players using means to locate resources/creatures/etc.. I'm not sure how you control this. But, that is interesting that the devs did some analysis on the exploitation ( not the players using external means to locate items/resources/etc. The money sinks tied into exploitation ). If you happen to have the article archived, or it is still available on a link somewhere, I'd love to read it too. That is pretty interesting that they came to realize that. Absolutely makes sense too.
Doing a little digging, I found this one graph of the economy. The original page disapeared when they redid the site after the NGE was announced. Heres the Graph. Its also got some info from Holocron answering questions about the economy.
Basically, they said that they found out there were dupes because they looked at the economy and found out that it was running at a loss, which should have ment that no one whould have money. But since there was so much money, there had to be huge dupes out there, which they then searched out, while using the delating economy to try and work out the dupes. One of the things they found was that around 95% of all the money was in about 5% of the population's hands. Compare this to the real world where 90% is in the hands of 10% of the population. Most of this I found from articles on this subject I found on google. Most sites only show the 1 picture, and talk about it a little.
As for now, I think I'm just going to lay off the PvP ideas, and wait until we get something more from the developers about how combat will go before spouting new ideas. I will probably still coment on whatever hair-brained schemes you guys come up with, just to mess with ya
Waiting For: something good Games Tried: SWTOR, Star Trek Online, EQ, EQ2, Earth and Beyond, Planetside, Lineage 2, Eve Online, WoW, City of Heroes, City of Villians, Auto Assault, Fallen Earth Star Wars: Galaxies - Ibra Olasi (Valcyn Server) [Dead, screw you SOE]
That's excellent stuff Cthul. Thanks for digging that article up! Definitely an interesting read. It makes you think about the need for a virtual economy to have its own auditors and financial analysts hehe An interesting idea
I suppose it is true that so far we have all had small discussions on what would be a great system. Though, a few of us eventually come to agree somewhat on one concept then someone shoots holes in it and we/he/she/they/it embrace an entirely new one, and repeat many times.
Excellent post and very informative.
Ah. I just noticed the last line of your signature. heh
So, basically the mine in the Non-PvP area has similiar resources, differeing quantities/differing regrowth time/whatever than the mine in the PvP area which has differeing quantities/differeing regrowth time/whatever.
Non-PvP areas have the content available to them, but in a lesser degree than the concentrations that could be found in the PvP area.
Sorry about brutally hacking apart your post to get at the guts, but isn't this exactly the risk vs reward system I talked about?
So, basically the mine in the Non-PvP area has similiar resources, differeing quantities/differing regrowth time/whatever than the mine in the PvP area which has differeing quantities/differeing regrowth time/whatever. Non-PvP areas have the content available to them, but in a lesser degree than the concentrations that could be found in the PvP area.
Sorry about brutally hacking apart your post to get at the guts, but isn't this exactly the risk vs reward system I talked about?
After addressing this kind of thing so many times, I always compromise. This is just something that I think we will all have to swallow, in whatever form, and my ideas are not necessarily the best. Or orginal hehe I tried to think of something, in a very general way, that would meet in common ground, yet still allow the whole player base to experience the content available in the game in some fashion fitting with their tastes. This enables the entire player base to experience the same content, to some degree. Whether it is the same degrees, differeing, whatever, it tries to meet in a common ground. And like I said, this is not an orginal idea
I'll say it again: I'm not pointing fingers, I'm not trying to stake claim to anythng.. Hell, I can't even remember what has been said, specifically over time in this forum thread. Just the general jist of the discussion. Anymore, there is nothing to be gained by posting here, not without more information to work with. Everyone here has pretty much touched on the same concepts over and over. So, if something looks familiar to you, that is probably because it has been beaten around until people are becoming rather disgusted with this thread. Any more, people pop in to see if there is something to pick apart, myself included. So, time to take a break from it, until we have more information. This has been said too I guess it is because it is a delicate subject for everyone, and we all feel just as strongly about it as the next person.
So, you're probably right that your idea of risk-vs-reward is in here quite a number of times, and not just in my posts.
As I mentioned in my last post, and Cthul has mentioned previous to that, we are readdressing the same things that have been brought up, shot down, brought up again, shot down, etc. repeat as many times as you like.
I really just want things to be fair and fun for everyone. That is all.
Originally posted by Jenuviel Speaking from the Carebear camp (lord, how I hate that term), I'm not a fan of pvp at all, but I know how important it is for any multiplayer game. I think an optional flag system is the best way to handle it. Asheron's Call had the altars where you could turn on your flags, SWG had temporary enemy flags, WoW "normal" and "rp" servers had immediate flags and temporary enemy flags. Handling pvp with zones strikes me as a bad idea because it's effectively limiting content from individuals. I know, I know, "tough, let them deal with it." Telling people one click away from a cancel button in another window "tough" is a bad business idea, though. People say "great!" when you give them options, they say "bye!" when you take options away; in this case, pvp and non-pvp "zones" are said options. People who want to be pvping all the time shouldn't have to spend a bunch of time in non-pvp areas, and people who want to be in safe-mode all the time shouldn't feel like they're missing out on anything just because they're not interested in fragging people. The moment you start telling people that they have to play a certain way to access certain content, those people start to feel devalued. With a flag, you're pvp anywhere you go until you turn the flag off, or you're non-pvp anywhere you go until you turn the flag on. Both types of players have what they want (with the exception of the people who get their kicks killing non-pvpers, and those folks really don't bring anything constructive to the game anyway). I think ruleset servers are a good idea as well, though I'm sure there are financial reasons why these aren't used more often. Having "PvP" (full pvp 24 hours a day) and "RP" (stricter naming conventions, slight behavior code of conduct) servers would start things off on the right foot. Both camps are strongly territorial, and both camps interfere with the way the other does business. If each camp gets its own server, each will feel they're being listened to, each will feel their opinions are being valued. That's quite a lot of morale influenced by a few lines of code and some flags next to server names on the startup screen.
I have to agree with you on this one. the people who want only one full pvp server are usually (99.99%) of the time wanting to greif non-pvpers and newbies. what usually happens in those cases is that they will want to be teh l33t and if someone beats them to it and greifs them they will say the game sux and leave. it has happened all the time with eve online, WoW, SWG, and many others. why not just have pvp caravan missions? the winners get their share of the loot or money.
nobody should have to worry about the chance of being hijacked when traveling between cities. it is afterall just a game and it is made to be fun. not a noob slay fest, which it would become with only pvp.
I couldn't help but see if I missed some things in the old posts of this section. I can't agree with the two of you more. Very good points, but as you said, it depends on how Icarus develops the game. ( For PvPers or not for PvPers )
She should have stuck around. The game is going to hopefully be FPS and 3rd person. At least that is the intent.
But good lord, I don't want to start this crap up again LOL
This is a fantastic discussion. I don't know how some of you fnd the time. I think some of this is getting complicated. PvP should be determained by actions. If you are a PvP player then you should be open always open for PvP in the wild. If you spend the weekend killing newbies and you shouldn't be able to turn off PvP because you now feel you want to move on and do something constructive. If that's the case, start a new character.
When I had to give up UO for realy world responcibilites, I decided it would be fun to block a bridge just out of town. I demanded money from players wanting to cross of I threatened to kill them. Some complied, others did not. Now I don't usually PvP but I was on my way out but ended playing for another few weeks because I was having so much fun. Finally, a bunch of players got together to get rid of the assblocking the bridge and I was killed and looted. This was fun for both me and those hunting me down. I chose to put myself in this position and met the fate of a PvP player.
I really think a simple, good (no PvP), bad (PvP), or really bad (PvP by anyone including good players, guards, God) rating would solve this.
Anyway, hope the developers are reading all the good ideas that many of you have put forward.
I don't say that to mean that I was the originator of the risk vs reward idea, I most likely wasn't. (I can't remember either) What I was pointing out was that we are now, for the first time in the entire thread, in agreement on a single system. Does this mean this is truly the system that satisfies both sides of the fence? That would be neat, because then we could start discussing modifications of that system, instead of proposing (and reproposing) completely new ideas.
Good question Atheraal. I think we are all more or less waiting for the devs to give us more material to work with, or are working on fan sites, emailing the devs with whatever we feel is pertinent, etc.. So, I don't know how this is going to end up at this point, but at least things have died down somewhat hehe
Sorry, I must have taken your post that I responded to the wrong way. Apologies rendered.
May I just begin with saying that this game looks great! I'm so looking forward to see how it turns out.
I can't say I have read through the whole thread regarding pvp, but I really hope pvp won't ruin this game.
One of my all time favourite mmorpg was UO, and pvp ruined that game for me. When people can pvp and loot your phats there is a guarante that there are people out there that will exploit/use that to their advantage. The 2nd time I was looted of all my good equipment in UO I had enough and quit for good. I hope Fallen Earth don't adopt a very liberal/open PVP system.
Don't get me wrong, PVP can be fun if implemented properly. My wish for Fallen Earth in regards of PVP would be :
1. First periode/levels in game one is not pvp enabled, after a while one can chose if one will "enable" pvp. Maybe even give players the option to never have to "enable" the pvp tag, that way one would give those people that don't wanna pvp a chance to enjoy the game as well.
2. Restrict or make pvp very difficult in most areas. By means of guards (npcs) or some other way (anarchy online use a kind of suppression gas that makes people less aggressive, so no pvp in cities and close to them).
3. No looting of equipment from other players. If you defeat a player in pvp I don't think you should be able to loot this gear/equipment. One could be able to loot his/hers credits/money/ammo, but not hard to get equipment.
Hmmm.....I'll get back on the subject later, can't hink of any more
This wasn't directed at you Neemis. You make valid points. Problem is, they've been made before and debated in much detail. Its just that this thread, while full of good discussion, is starting to become bloated because of people not reading it and bringing back ideas that have already been beaten to a pulp.
Go ahead ya'll, read the thread. It doesn't bite. Well, Drycat might, but other than that you're ok
I think I'm going to find some children to sacrifice to my Icarus shrine out back... this thread could use some feedback from them.
Well, personally, I'm hoping that they'll get some boards of their own up and moderate them (or appoint moderators) so that things flow a bit more smoothly. I don't particularly care for this board's setup, and I think that it compounds the problem of people not reading through things in their entirety.
----------------------------------- Go you must. No guest shall stay in one place for ever. Love will be lost if you sit too long at a friend's fire.
Go ahead ya'll, read the thread. It doesn't bite. Well, Drycat might, but other than that you're ok
I think I'm going to find some children to sacrifice to my Icarus shrine out back... this thread could use some feedback from them.
Heh. I think I got carried away in some of my posts and my recurring theme. So I apologize if I pissed anyone off too much. It definitely was not intentional. It's just a passionate topic.
I think it would make sense and help a lot of the DEVs would just post there intentions and ideas on what they are looking to do with PvP a little more than "PvP zones". Having played from early betas, nothing planned is what is released and what is released is never left unchanged (gag on SOE). So, them posting what they are looking to do with major topics would help us get a better idea of what they are looking towards and we can better give ideas, examples and banter back and forth.
What sucks now, is you have an awesome game, a limited amout of info on a website and no DEV interaction. Thus, leaving us to wonder, draw conclusions or guess-ta-mate on what may or may not be coming down the road. I just wish we had something more solid to talk about, other than guessing.
I would hardly say theres no DEV interaction... they have replied to us in numerous threads here. They also posted a newsletter after we begged for one, and gave us a lot more info than we were expecting. Icarus might be saving the hardcore discussion for when they get their boards up, who knows...
No worries Neemis, sorry for snapping like that. Most of us are sorta on edge over the whole PvP issue since we can't really get anywhere with it. All I wanted was for people to at least skim the thread to see if their idea has been perfected/destroyed yet.
Comments
That sounds good Atheraal.
Edgtho, one of the original ideas back near the beginning of this thread, and what I imagined for the "PvP" server, was more of a non-PvP areas in and around cities with high law enforcement (especially including the starting areas for new players) which would extent a few kilometers/miles from the city borders. You would get a warning saying "You are entering the wastelands (Full PvP)" or something similar to explain that they are entering the PvP area (the wastes outside of civilization). Second, there would be police patrols within and just outside of the edge of the non-PvP zone. These would be to catch raiders and griefers. And by police, I don't mean the troops that police Galaxies cities now, I mean the ones that where the police at the begining of the game, where it would take people nearly finished with their proffesion to do real damage to them and the raids would be exciting even if there were no opposing players in attendance. Those were true soldiers, not the crap they have now that can be taken down by most anyone.
Anyway, these would deter griefers, as would the amount of area needed to cover in order to grief. Since there would be no set areas where players would have to leave through (such as the town gate like in Linage 2, or between cliffs like AO), there would be a circle around the city with a large perimiter which would be impossible to guard if not working in large groups (50+).
Within these areas would be renewable resources (cheap resources that are unlimited). Outside would be slightly less available resources, until you hit far out in certain areas or abandoned places which are guarded by NPC or PC groups which have very rare resources (certain type of power source or certain vehicle piece) that are very limited in their amount (maybe 1 a day or less, think the Nightsister Braces in Galaxies).
This does several things for the economy:
One, it makes most items of the same quality, with the difference defined by crafter skill. I like this, as it makes combat more based on player/character skill than the items they own.
Two, for better items crafters would either have to venture into more dangerous areas or have some one else harvest the resources for them (like in most games with crafting) and the more dangerous/rare an item is, the more expensive it will be. This will add in a player-made (my favorite type of anything in an mmo) barter and haggle system with nothing but the basic trade system they will already have being used. Also, most people will look different without accutally being different, and when someone has a
Three, these warrior/harvesters will cut down on the griefers as they will be continually moving past them and will tire of them quickly (once in Lineage 2, I got up to the level needed and then went back and kicked the ass out of a griefer around a starter town who always harrased me).
Four, if players are allowed to build their own towns or run NPC territories in the wild, these areas could become new havens which will have their own non-PvP zone if they so choose (though some sort of raid option would be cool too, to allow changes to the towns ownership). To cut down on the "Fort Krayt" phenomonon (building cities near or in areas of major interest) maybe player cities would only be in pre-designated areas (abandoned towns and ones still in use).
there are more affects to the economy and the game, but thats all I can think of right now (5am). More to come later.
Waiting For: something good
Games Tried: SWTOR, Star Trek Online, EQ, EQ2, Earth and Beyond, Planetside, Lineage 2, Eve Online, WoW, City of Heroes, City of Villians, Auto Assault, Fallen Earth
Star Wars: Galaxies - Ibra Olasi (Valcyn Server) [Dead, screw you SOE]
The idea of risk vs. reward is a very simple idea that just makes sense. I really think it should play a part in the economy, with the best resources in dangerous areas. EVE works this way and it is very popular with the playerbase. Of course, we've talked about this before, and Drycat mentioned that non-PvPers will want the entire game available to them in non-PvP areas.
This thread could really use a little direction from Icarus. You can quote their site all you want, but the site is terribly old and they've mentioned none of the ideas there are concrete. We've covered just about every viewpoint from hardcore PvP to no PvP and everything in between. If we at least knew partially how their system would work, we could pick that apart instead of the recycling our ideas are going through now..
http://www.fallenearth.se - Your source for Fallen Earth information
I think the risk/reward theory works, but I am thinking some items should be lore/unique/no drop like more high end game standards. Though the idea of choosing a life style(in game) like a hunter of items who is hired or just sells them is pretty cool and goes along well with the apocalyptic theme
"It's the little things in life." Tech Sgt Chen
I disagree. Travel in a post-apocalyptic setting should ALWAYS be dangerous. And if that trouble comes from other players, more the better because it would be more challanging.
"I've never said anything worth quoting." -Lord Drako
Actually, drycat says that PvPers want the best of both worlds. They want to do what they will in PvP areas and relax in the comfort of Non-PvP. Yet, they want the best the game has to offer in the PvP areas, because of this "risk-vs-reward" theory. The concept just intrigues me very much.
And I will explain why to you once more. PvPers initially say that PvP is for the challenge and adds to roleplaying. Once that it is established that they want it for those elements, next comes the fact that their risk is greater, so they should be rewarded beyond what a Non-PvP oriented player can expect in their "Non-PvP" areas. To me, placing the most economically rewarding elements/loot/resources/ content/whatever the case is, in a PvP area is just not fairly balanced, IMO.
I mean, if the intnetion is that PvP is for the challenge and the roleplaying, why should that make PvP rewarded ( content unavailable to other players that don't want to PvP) above and beyond the content available to the player that chooses not to? If you click on my name and read my posts in this section, you will see why I drive at this concept from an economic standpoint. My stance creates a balanced economy, while still rewarding PvPers(which I still find hard to swallow) for being PvPers. But it still provides the same content to Non-PvP types. I'll summarize breifly, once more:
You have a mine in a Non-PvP area with hi-end resources/loot/whatever at a certain quantity/availablity/whatever. It is available to anyone who is able to get to it/mine it/etc.. Now, you have a similiar mine, and similiar only in that it has the same kind of resources/loot/whatever in it. PvPers ( clans, individuals, whatever ) can stake sole claim over these resources.
So, basically the mine in the Non-PvP area has similiar resources, differeing quantities/differing regrowth time/whatever than the mine in the PvP area which has differeing quantities/differeing regrowth time/whatever. So, the PvPers are rewarded for PvPing in the sense they can make/extract/mine/whatever far more than could possibly be made at the other mine, but you still make the same content available to both players. The resources and content in SWG was available to everyone who could get to them. PvPers and Non-PvPers alike. The reasons the economy went sour on the server I was on in SWG were related to people exploiting the game, not because everyone could vie for the same resources/content/whatever. I'm sure we all have a list of things that went wrong there. Nevertheless, PvP will not solve exploits, just like Non-PvP will not solve exploits either.
Non-PvP areas have the content available to them, but in a lesser degree than the concentrations that could be found in the PvP area.
The reasoning behind this is that if you give everyone a little of the same, it hides the fact that you are giving one stratum of your population alot more of the same. This is a general statement, if you want to talk about it more, I'll be happy to.
But, right now I need to get my Silent Storm Sentinels fix.
The thing is that this game is going to be 7000+ sq miles. Its not like players are going to be running into each other every step of the way. Most will be empty space filled with NPCs. Rarely will you run across other players. When you go hunting in the wilds of Rori or Lok in Galaxies, what are the chances you will find another player?
If you do the PvP and non-PvP resource system you have to balance it perfectly. You have to add tons of reward for the high risk of a resource in a PvP area while you are basically giving players tons of reward for killing a few NPCs at most. If it isn't balanced right, either there will be few players at the PvP source, or the non-PvP sources. This doesn't hide the fact that one side is getting more than the other. Since the internet allows players to know where these resources are, they will quickly find out that one source has more than the other and there will be uproars on the boards (aren't there always).
SWG's economy staid inflated due to exploitation. But without the Exploitation, the economy was slowly shriking. The devs put up a Friday Feature about it, and when they looked at it they actually had too many money sinks, which helped remove the exploitation from the economy.
Waiting For: something good
Games Tried: SWTOR, Star Trek Online, EQ, EQ2, Earth and Beyond, Planetside, Lineage 2, Eve Online, WoW, City of Heroes, City of Villians, Auto Assault, Fallen Earth
Star Wars: Galaxies - Ibra Olasi (Valcyn Server) [Dead, screw you SOE]
Well, look at it this way. Regardless of whether you have all the hi/scarce/whatever they are, rewards in PvP areas or balanced between Non-PvP and PvP, the devs still must balance the system perfectly ( which, I am pretty sure that balancing an economy is never a perfect thing ) But, giving it all up to high risk and reward in PvP areas is not balanced either. Putting some of the resource, not an excessive amount in Non-PvP areas will only go so far. Which basically means that it is worth the time for a few or several persons to go there and extract/mine the resource. But, the PvP areas will have higher concetrations due to their geographical locations ( or whatever the case may be ). I agree, it is not without its flaws when you factor in the player base. hehe
I see where you are coming from. But I also see that either way you do it, there is going to be the same balancing issue.
So, sure I proposed this alternative because I was trying to find a middle ground that would satisfy both PvP and Non-PvP people and still instill some kind of risk-vs-reward. Believe me, I would prefer to have content available much the same way that SWG depicted it. Everyone has access to the same game content, with the exception being faction specific content. But, I don't know what the best system is. I can only think of fair methods in providing equal opportunity to explore the same content without forcing players hands. If you want to call it that. I hope they do have some kind of faction based system, that resembles SWG. The factions would have certain perks, and if I choose not to align myself with a faction, I am just missing out on the perks. I can live with that.
Analyzing is a good answer, but without a collection of data to appreciate on the economy you are putting in place, it won't help in implementing and balancing the various systems/resources/classes ability to produce currency at a specific rate/etc.. you designed. This includes systems designed to control inflation ( money sinks/etc.. ). Unfortunately, the best way to test this is with a large population of people. So, I can only hope that whatever system they decide to go with, that it will receive a good portion of the analysis that it deserves before it goes live.
I totally agree with you that it is not a simple matter. As far as players using means to locate resources/creatures/etc.. I'm not sure how you control this. But, that is interesting that the devs did some analysis on the exploitation ( not the players using external means to locate items/resources/etc. The money sinks tied into exploitation ). If you happen to have the article archived, or it is still available on a link somewhere, I'd love to read it too. That is pretty interesting that they came to realize that. Absolutely makes sense too.
Pretty interesting stuff
Doing a little digging, I found this one graph of the economy. The original page disapeared when they redid the site after the NGE was announced. Heres the Graph. Its also got some info from Holocron answering questions about the economy.
Basically, they said that they found out there were dupes because they looked at the economy and found out that it was running at a loss, which should have ment that no one whould have money. But since there was so much money, there had to be huge dupes out there, which they then searched out, while using the delating economy to try and work out the dupes. One of the things they found was that around 95% of all the money was in about 5% of the population's hands. Compare this to the real world where 90% is in the hands of 10% of the population. Most of this I found from articles on this subject I found on google. Most sites only show the 1 picture, and talk about it a little.
As for now, I think I'm just going to lay off the PvP ideas, and wait until we get something more from the developers about how combat will go before spouting new ideas. I will probably still coment on whatever hair-brained schemes you guys come up with, just to mess with ya
Waiting For: something good
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Star Wars: Galaxies - Ibra Olasi (Valcyn Server) [Dead, screw you SOE]
That's excellent stuff Cthul. Thanks for digging that article up! Definitely an interesting read. It makes you think about the need for a virtual economy to have its own auditors and financial analysts hehe An interesting idea
I suppose it is true that so far we have all had small discussions on what would be a great system. Though, a few of us eventually come to agree somewhat on one concept then someone shoots holes in it and we/he/she/they/it embrace an entirely new one, and repeat many times.
Excellent post and very informative.
Ah. I just noticed the last line of your signature. heh
Sorry about brutally hacking apart your post to get at the guts, but isn't this exactly the risk vs reward system I talked about?
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Sorry about brutally hacking apart your post to get at the guts, but isn't this exactly the risk vs reward system I talked about?
After addressing this kind of thing so many times, I always compromise. This is just something that I think we will all have to swallow, in whatever form, and my ideas are not necessarily the best. Or orginal hehe I tried to think of something, in a very general way, that would meet in common ground, yet still allow the whole player base to experience the content available in the game in some fashion fitting with their tastes. This enables the entire player base to experience the same content, to some degree. Whether it is the same degrees, differeing, whatever, it tries to meet in a common ground. And like I said, this is not an orginal idea
I'll say it again: I'm not pointing fingers, I'm not trying to stake claim to anythng.. Hell, I can't even remember what has been said, specifically over time in this forum thread. Just the general jist of the discussion. Anymore, there is nothing to be gained by posting here, not without more information to work with. Everyone here has pretty much touched on the same concepts over and over. So, if something looks familiar to you, that is probably because it has been beaten around until people are becoming rather disgusted with this thread. Any more, people pop in to see if there is something to pick apart, myself included. So, time to take a break from it, until we have more information. This has been said too
I guess it is because it is a delicate subject for everyone, and we all feel just as strongly about it as the next person.
So, you're probably right that your idea of risk-vs-reward is in here quite a number of times, and not just in my posts.
As I mentioned in my last post, and Cthul has mentioned previous to that, we are readdressing the same things that have been brought up, shot down, brought up again, shot down, etc. repeat as many times as you like.
I really just want things to be fair and fun for everyone. That is all.
I have to agree with you on this one. the people who want only one full pvp server are usually (99.99%) of the time wanting to greif non-pvpers and newbies. what usually happens in those cases is that they will want to be teh l33t and if someone beats them to it and greifs them they will say the game sux and leave. it has happened all the time with eve online, WoW, SWG, and many others. why not just have pvp caravan missions? the winners get their share of the loot or money.
nobody should have to worry about the chance of being hijacked when traveling between cities. it is afterall just a game and it is made to be fun. not a noob slay fest, which it would become with only pvp.
I couldn't help but see if I missed some things in the old posts of this section. I can't agree with the two of you more. Very good points, but as you said, it depends on how Icarus develops the game. ( For PvPers or not for PvPers )
She should have stuck around. The game is going to hopefully be FPS and 3rd person. At least that is the intent.
But good lord, I don't want to start this crap up again LOL
A shame I missed this post before though.
This is a fantastic discussion. I don't know how some of you fnd the time. I think some of this is getting complicated. PvP should be determained by actions. If you are a PvP player then you should be open always open for PvP in the wild. If you spend the weekend killing newbies and you shouldn't be able to turn off PvP because you now feel you want to move on and do something constructive. If that's the case, start a new character.
When I had to give up UO for realy world responcibilites, I decided it would be fun to block a bridge just out of town. I demanded money from players wanting to cross of I threatened to kill them. Some complied, others did not. Now I don't usually PvP but I was on my way out but ended playing for another few weeks because I was having so much fun. Finally, a bunch of players got together to get rid of the assblocking the bridge and I was killed and looted. This was fun for both me and those hunting me down. I chose to put myself in this position and met the fate of a PvP player.
I really think a simple, good (no PvP), bad (PvP), or really bad (PvP by anyone including good players, guards, God) rating would solve this.
Anyway, hope the developers are reading all the good ideas that many of you have put forward.
I don't say that to mean that I was the originator of the risk vs reward idea, I most likely wasn't. (I can't remember either) What I was pointing out was that we are now, for the first time in the entire thread, in agreement on a single system. Does this mean this is truly the system that satisfies both sides of the fence? That would be neat, because then we could start discussing modifications of that system, instead of proposing (and reproposing) completely new ideas.
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Good question Atheraal. I think we are all more or less waiting for the devs to give us more material to work with, or are working on fan sites, emailing the devs with whatever we feel is pertinent, etc.. So, I don't know how this is going to end up at this point, but at least things have died down somewhat hehe
Sorry, I must have taken your post that I responded to the wrong way. Apologies rendered.
May I just begin with saying that this game looks great! I'm so looking forward to see how it turns out.
I can't say I have read through the whole thread regarding pvp, but I really hope pvp won't ruin this game.
One of my all time favourite mmorpg was UO, and pvp ruined that game for me. When people can pvp and loot your phats there is a guarante that there are people out there that will exploit/use that to their advantage. The 2nd time I was looted of all my good equipment in UO I had enough and quit for good. I hope Fallen Earth don't adopt a very liberal/open PVP system.
Don't get me wrong, PVP can be fun if implemented properly. My wish for Fallen Earth in regards of PVP would be :
1. First periode/levels in game one is not pvp enabled, after a while one can chose if one will "enable" pvp. Maybe even give players the option to never have to "enable" the pvp tag, that way one would give those people that don't wanna pvp a chance to enjoy the game as well.
2. Restrict or make pvp very difficult in most areas. By means of guards (npcs) or some other way (anarchy online use a kind of suppression gas that makes people less aggressive, so no pvp in cities and close to them).
3. No looting of equipment from other players. If you defeat a player in pvp I don't think you should be able to loot this gear/equipment. One could be able to loot his/hers credits/money/ammo, but not hard to get equipment.
Hmmm.....I'll get back on the subject later, can't hink of any more
Here everyone, this is what the next 20 pages are going to look like... I figured I might as well get it out of the way.
1: insert comment about how good the game looks
2: insert comment about not reading the whole thread
3: insert good/bad experience involving PvP
4: insert idea that has been beaten to death by the thread (which hasn't been read, see #2)
5: repeat. repeat. repeat. repeat. repeat. repeat. repeat. repeat. repeat. repeat. repeat. repeat.
This wasn't directed at you Neemis. You make valid points. Problem is, they've been made before and debated in much detail. Its just that this thread, while full of good discussion, is starting to become bloated because of people not reading it and bringing back ideas that have already been beaten to a pulp.
Go ahead ya'll, read the thread. It doesn't bite. Well, Drycat might, but other than that you're ok
I think I'm going to find some children to sacrifice to my Icarus shrine out back... this thread could use some feedback from them.
http://www.fallenearth.se - Your source for Fallen Earth information
Well, personally, I'm hoping that they'll get some boards of their own up and moderate them (or appoint moderators) so that things flow a bit more smoothly. I don't particularly care for this board's setup, and I think that it compounds the problem of people not reading through things in their entirety.
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Love will be lost
if you sit too long
at a friend's fire.
-- The Havamal
I think it would make sense and help a lot of the DEVs would just post there intentions and ideas on what they are looking to do with PvP a little more than "PvP zones". Having played from early betas, nothing planned is what is released and what is released is never left unchanged (gag on SOE). So, them posting what they are looking to do with major topics would help us get a better idea of what they are looking towards and we can better give ideas, examples and banter back and forth.
What sucks now, is you have an awesome game, a limited amout of info on a website and no DEV interaction. Thus, leaving us to wonder, draw conclusions or guess-ta-mate on what may or may not be coming down the road. I just wish we had something more solid to talk about, other than guessing.
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I would hardly say theres no DEV interaction... they have replied to us in numerous threads here. They also posted a newsletter after we begged for one, and gave us a lot more info than we were expecting. Icarus might be saving the hardcore discussion for when they get their boards up, who knows...
http://www.fallenearth.se - Your source for Fallen Earth information
I just wanted to say that I replied to this thread because I wanted to say what kind of pvp rules I wanted the game to have.
I guessed someone had probably posted similar suggenstions before me, but I wanted to voice my opinion on the case.
No worries Neemis, sorry for snapping like that. Most of us are sorta on edge over the whole PvP issue since we can't really get anywhere with it. All I wanted was for people to at least skim the thread to see if their idea has been perfected/destroyed yet.
Welcome to the forum by the way
http://www.fallenearth.se - Your source for Fallen Earth information