AI is indeed a lot more advanced than most people realize. However, (and this has been talked about quite a lot @ GDC converences and such) most games deliberately choose to not include complex AI. Why? Because most gamers don't actually want that. It's 'too hard', requires too much effort, is not 'fun enough'. It's for the same reason we have such dumbed down game mechanics. That's what sells, because that's what the majority of gamers want. And it's also a lot cheaper to develope, so why wouldn't studios go that route.
This ^^^
Best example ... an encounter called Faction Champion back at tier 9 WOTLK WOW raid. You fight against NPCs with player classes, abilities, and AI. There is no aggro table. NPCs would and hit mage/healers first. They used CCs, and heal.
What was the result? People complained that it was too hard, and it was nerfed, and never tried again.
Players want a pattern they can learn and beat (hence all the pattern based boss fight), and NOT really smart NPCs that can defeat players again, again, and again.
This is a repost from another thread, to start a new topic. The real reason older gamers like their older games and dont like the new games? It's definitely not because they're older now.
As someone who actually holds a degree in Family Studies & Gerontology (the study of the elderly), I wanted to debunk this myth, among others, and educate the forum here as to the facts about aging. I was disturbed by how many people jumped to agree to a complete and utter myth.
Originally posted by a Misinformed User
OP you are right that as you age people are more resistant to changes.
I would like to see real scientific research articles supporting this random claim.
Honestly, I am sick and tired of the laymen spouting off random statements as if they're automatic facts just because they fit a popular stereotype.
How about a few links? If this is true, it should be easy enough to find some supporting evidence.
Learning becomes more difficult as one gets older and as a result people may stick with tried and true as they get on in age, which is what people tend to misinterpret as the older one gets the more they resist change.
You need to read up on some more recent brain science. I have. The "middle aged" brain, for example, uses other tricks to get around any changes that happen as a result of aging. *As long as you continue to use your brain to learn new things as you age. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't, and yes, they see their cognitive function decline as a result of not using it enough. Those of us who don't sit around like veggies watching dumb TV are less likely to have these problems.
In addition, this doesn't apply to people who age as "experts" at a skill or skills. For example, a 60 year old pilot who flies a plane regularly, is likely to be better at it than when he was in his "prime" learning age. He will decline physically before he declines mentally. This is another reason why older folks are working farther into old age in many industries these days.
I read a couple books about current brain science every year. Here's a good one that will break a lot of those old myths that float around where younger people like to think they are somehow superior to their elders, despite their complete lack of experience at much:
The secret to keeping your brain fresh as you age is learning novel things. Just like lifting weights, you need to work that brain muscle to keep it in shape. BTW, doing this also helps stave off aging problems such as dementia and Alzheimer's. Keep learning!
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Today's mainstream MMO's grab you by the hand and walk you through an invisible boundary maze filled with flashing lights and glowing trails. MMO's today are a glorified global chat room filled with instancing and an ever increasing trend to restrict bag/bank space so you spend more cash.
This is a repost from another thread, to start a new topic. The real reason older gamers like their older games and dont like the new games? It's definitely not because they're older now.
As someone who actually holds a degree in Family Studies & Gerontology (the study of the elderly), I wanted to debunk this myth, among others, and educate the forum here as to the facts about aging. I was disturbed by how many people jumped to agree to a complete and utter myth.
Originally posted by a Misinformed User
OP you are right that as you age people are more resistant to changes.
I would like to see real scientific research articles supporting this random claim.
Honestly, I am sick and tired of the laymen spouting off random statements as if they're automatic facts just because they fit a popular stereotype.
How about a few links? If this is true, it should be easy enough to find some supporting evidence.
Learning becomes more difficult as one gets older and as a result people may stick with tried and true as they get on in age, which is what people tend to misinterpret as the older one gets the more they resist change.
You need to read up on some more recent brain science. I have. The "middle aged" brain, for example, uses other tricks to get around any changes that happen as a result of aging. *As long as you continue to use your brain to learn new things as you age. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't, and yes, they see their cognitive function decline as a result of not using it enough. Those of us who don't sit around like veggies watching dumb TV are less likely to have these problems.
In addition, this doesn't apply to people who age as "experts" at a skill or skills. For example, a 60 year old pilot who flies a plane regularly, is likely to be better at it than when he was in his "prime" learning age.
I read a couple books about current brain science every year. Here's a good one that will break a lot of those old myths that float around where younger people like to think they are somehow superior to their elders, despite their complete lack of experience at much:
The secret to keeping your brain fresh as you age is learning novel things. Just like lifting weights, you need to work that brain muscle to keep it in shape. BTW, doing this also helps stave off aging problems such as dementia and Alzheimer's. Keep learning!
That was a really long way to say "I really didn't read your post, so since you replied to him I will assume you are disagreeing with him."
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
B: pvp until blue in the face in a pre-designed "warzone", or "battlefield" or whatever they decide to call that particular incarnation.
C: Raid until blue in the face.
The A and B parts fit perfectly to DAoC... irony?
huh? I can only assume you played DAOC after they gutted it to try to attract the WoW crowd.
I played DAOC for years on Merlin and then on Mordred...
Getting to Max level wasn't easy. It took months to hit Max level and that was when you were grouped to fight higher level content and avoid the xp loss of dying.. Solo'ing was very slow until the release of newer classes (Bonedancer) years later.
The PvP was in designated areas but was free from the lame Battleground , even sides, painless death, instant respawn crap that WoW made popular. PvP was in a HUGE area and was an open world 3 way battle that even had Keeps to fight over. the Open world approach provided tons of room for tactic, scouting, flanking, etc.... Losing a fight meant to lost, it took along time to travel back even with the realm teleporters.
Sadly the DAOC that is left today, is a streamline, easy mode, max level, 3 faction PvP lite game.
This is a repost from another thread, to start a new topic. The real reason older gamers like their older games and dont like the new games? It's definitely not because they're older now.
As someone who actually holds a degree in Family Studies & Gerontology (the study of the elderly), I wanted to debunk this myth, among others, and educate the forum here as to the facts about aging. I was disturbed by how many people jumped to agree to a complete and utter myth.
Originally posted by a Misinformed User
OP you are right that as you age people are more resistant to changes.
I would like to see real scientific research articles supporting this random claim.
Honestly, I am sick and tired of the laymen spouting off random statements as if they're automatic facts just because they fit a popular stereotype.
How about a few links? If this is true, it should be easy enough to find some supporting evidence.
Learning becomes more difficult as one gets older and as a result people may stick with tried and true as they get on in age, which is what people tend to misinterpret as the older one gets the more they resist change.
You need to read up on some more recent brain science. I have. The "middle aged" brain, for example, uses other tricks to get around any changes that happen as a result of aging. *As long as you continue to use your brain to learn new things as you age. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't, and yes, they see their cognitive function decline as a result of not using it enough. Those of us who don't sit around like veggies watching dumb TV are less likely to have these problems.
In addition, this doesn't apply to people who age as "experts" at a skill or skills. For example, a 60 year old pilot who flies a plane regularly, is likely to be better at it than when he was in his "prime" learning age.
I read a couple books about current brain science every year. Here's a good one that will break a lot of those old myths that float around where younger people like to think they are somehow superior to their elders, despite their complete lack of experience at much:
The secret to keeping your brain fresh as you age is learning novel things. Just like lifting weights, you need to work that brain muscle to keep it in shape. BTW, doing this also helps stave off aging problems such as dementia and Alzheimer's. Keep learning!
That was a really long way to say "I really didn't read your post, so since you replied to him I will assume you are disagreeing with him."
I read the posts above, and responded. There's nothing long about my post either, unless you are a slow reader.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Thanks for posting this. As a older gamer this means a lot to me. I find a lot of the newer mmo's just missing something and i get bored. Now i'm back playing Neocron 2 and Ryzom. Two games without a lot of hand holding and i'm enjoying mmo's again. Maybe it was fond memories of them, I don't know or why i decided to download them again. But playing them makes me see flaws in newer games that seem to only have better graphics. I have not been happy with most mmo's post wow. My first mmo was Anarchy online. Talk about a complex game. The skill system in that game was unforgiven. And i mean the game before they destroyed it with the shadowlands xpack. Most vets of the game including myself left the game after that.
AI is indeed a lot more advanced than most people realize. However, (and this has been talked about quite a lot @ GDC converences and such) most games deliberately choose to not include complex AI. Why? Because most gamers don't actually want that. It's 'too hard', requires too much effort, is not 'fun enough'. It's for the same reason we have such dumbed down game mechanics. That's what sells, because that's what the majority of gamers want. And it's also a lot cheaper to develope, so why wouldn't studios go that route.
I mainly think about AI in relation to strategy games, not MMOs and AI in strategy games is still pretty terrible unfortunately. You can program an AI with infinite numbers of patterns (which is why chess AI can beat human expert players) but I've never seen an AI which can react well to an unforseen development. Which is why, once you learn the AI's patterns it becomes easy to beat.
It's not that they are deliberately making that AIs dumb to let the players win either. Most strategy gamers clamor for better AI which is more of a challenge but no one has been able to deliver.
B: pvp until blue in the face in a pre-designed "warzone", or "battlefield" or whatever they decide to call that particular incarnation.
C: Raid until blue in the face.
The A and B parts fit perfectly to DAoC... irony?
huh? I can only assume you played DAOC after they gutted it to try to attract the WoW crowd.
I played DAOC for years on Merlin and then on Mordred...
Getting to Max level wasn't easy. It took months to hit Max level and that was when you were grouped to fight higher level content and avoid the xp loss of dying.. Solo'ing was very slow until the release of newer classes (Bonedancer) years later.
The PvP was in designated areas but was free from the lame Battleground , even sides, painless death, instant respawn crap that WoW made popular. PvP was in a HUGE area and was an open world 3 way battle that even had Keeps to fight over. the Open world approach provided tons of room for tactic, scouting, flanking, etc.... Losing a fight meant to lost, it took along time to travel back even with the realm teleporters.
Sadly the DAOC that is left today, is a streamline, easy mode, max level, 3 faction PvP lite game.
No, no, I'm talking about DAoC at release.
Very shallow and simple game to level (grind mobs, move to next spot, grind more mobs, etc... can't say that's rocket science right) and PvP that grow old fast as end game (once you'd taken a couple of keeps, you had seen them all).
Unlike many "oldtimers", I don't confuse tedium with difficulty or depth, even though I'm and old gamer too.
Actually, when I think of it, I am resistant to change. I'm currently playing a free shard reset to 2003 (pre-SI) and really enjoying myself. Totally not interested in what DAOC has become in its current state.
I think I know why too. It isn't so much because I'm older, but more due to the fact that being a more casual player I never get to "complete" the content as originally presented before the development team comes along and drastically revamps the game and I quit in frustration.
This pattern actually happened with several MMO's, including Lineage 1 (where a significant nerf to my Wizard totally changed the game play), to DAOC where there was first SI (which I managed to hold on and tolerate) but then they went forward with TOA, New frontiers and I was out.
I wanted to get to realm rank 10L10 before they changed the game mechanics completely making it necessary for me to now grind through numerous PVE instances and weapons to get competitive in PVP, while all I wanted to do at that time was PVP and earn more realm ranks, (which were no longer good enough)
The current freeshard has none of this, and I am quite happily leveling up a Skald which I hope to one day get into the upper tiers of the RR system.
WOW was the same way, I was with my guild fighting our way through the AQ 40 content, with the Four Horseman on the near horizon, and then they came out with BC, totally invalidating the work I had done so far, making my current goals meaningless and setting a whole new set of objectives in front of me. So I left.
Now EVE is the exception to this, and I believe its because no matter what new content they decide to add, first, I can totally ignore it (such as planetary exploration) and focus on what I enjoyed doing 4 years ago if I like, (i.e. PVP in 0.0 or something).
I even did some new things, such as living in wormholes, because while new, still was very familiar and choosing to do them did nothing to derail me from any previously set goals.
I actually despise holiday events in MMO's, because they now provide new content that I feel compelled to do (even if only fluff) and again, distracts me from my planned goals and objectives, which due to time constraints I'm normally always struggle to meet.
Blame it on my completionist nature, I have to complete all content, be it every quest in the game on the way up during leveling, or in dungeons or what ever. When the game's progress moves more quickly than I can achieve my goals, I decide to quit and find another game which might not change so rapidly. (never happens of course)
So yes, I hate change, and I certainly hate new MMO's that come out that are missing the features from earlier titles that I never completely got done with (such as massive dragon raids) so that's why I'm back in 2003, finally getting a chance to progress towards my goals that I was thwarted from doing back in the day.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Very shallow and simple game to level (grind mobs, move to next spot, grind more mobs, etc... can't say that's rocket science right) and PvP that grow old fast as end game (once you'd taken a couple of keeps, you had seen them all).
Unlike many "oldtimers", I don't confuse tedium with difficulty or depth, even though I'm and old gamer too.
Lol , our opinions are our own. For me and t he many "oldtimers" I enjoyed the game mechanics of the original DAOC that involved reply on groups to kill dangerous higher level mobs and where a mistake / death cost you xp, time and effort to recover from. The open PvP where anything could happen, where organizing more people, having a plan could turn the tides of battle/siege that actually gave you a tangible reward and the loser a tangible loss.
I am sorry that you felt DAOC was tedious and shallow, I can only image how inane you must view the current culture of MMOs that require even less commitment, effort, attention, challenge and risk.
Today's MMO's may be shinier,with better graphics and animations. But there is little to no immersion. You visit Zone A,complete quests from quest givers who literally stand out from the crowd because they have shiny marks above their heads. Play for 8 hours get 20 levels.Rinse and repeat from zone to zone until you are max level and then start raiding/PvP. The world may be huge on paper,but in reality any player can fly/port or what have you from one end of the world to another in seconds.
I'll use EQ as an example (as that is one most Oldtimers will recall). You didn't know who had quests and who didn't. You had to visit every nook and cranny. You had to explore. You didn't gain 20 levels in a day. It took (at that time) weeks and weeks to get to level 20. When you left an area in that game,you damn well knew every inch of that zone. Only 2 classes really allowed fast "world Travel" and you either ran,waited for a boat or payed a small amount to one of those 2 classes to get you where you wanted to be in a quicker fashion.
In the new games for the most part,mobs leash. You aggro to many, you can run. In the older games they chased you down,stomped on you, then stomped on anyone nearby,then they went home. Anyone remember Blackburrow an the massive lowbie mob trains when we all first got there? Other than the occasional "oops" moment in the new games it's likely that you will only die a handful of times while leveling to the cap in the new games.
I dislike instancing. It forces you,your group or your raid "outside' of the game world and into a spot to call your very own. There is again,no immersion. Nobody is in zone to see or hear the boss shout and yell,nobody to cheer you (or jeer you) when you finally down them. You have nobody from outside to cheer you on. In many ways to me it's like winning a race where I was the only one running.
Actually, when I think of it, I am resistant to change. I'm currently playing a free shard reset to 2003 (pre-SI) and really enjoying myself. Totally not interested in what DAOC has become in its current state.
I think I know why too. It isn't so much because I'm older, but more due to the fact that being a more casual player I never get to "complete" the content as originally presented before the development team comes along and drastically revamps the game and I quit in frustration.
This pattern actually happened with several MMO's, including Lineage 1 (where a significant nerf to my Wizard totally changed the game play), to DAOC where there was first SI (which I managed to hold on and tolerate) but then they went forward with TOA, New frontiers and I was out.
I wanted to get to realm rank 10L10 before they changed the game mechanics completely making it necessary for me to now grind through numerous PVE instances and weapons to get competitive in PVP, while all I wanted to do at that time was PVP and earn more realm ranks, (which were no longer good enough)
The current freeshard has none of this, and I am quite happily leveling up a Skald which I hope to one day get into the upper tiers of the RR system.
WOW was the same way, I was with my guild fighting our way through the AQ 40 content, with the Four Horseman on the near horizon, and then they came out with BC, totally invalidating the work I had done so far, making my current goals meaningless and setting a whole new set of objectives in front of me. So I left.
Now EVE is the exception to this, and I believe its because no matter what new content they decide to add, first, I can totally ignore it (such as planetary exploration) and focus on what I enjoyed doing 4 years ago if I like, (i.e. PVP in 0.0 or something).
I even did some new things, such as living in wormholes, because while new, still was very familiar and choosing to do them did nothing to derail me from any previously set goals.
I actually despise holiday events in MMO's, because they now provide new content that I feel compelled to do (even if only fluff) and again, distracts me from my planned goals and objectives, which due to time constraints I'm normally always struggle to meet.
Blame it on my completionist nature, I have to complete all content, be it every quest in the game on the way up during leveling, or in dungeons or what ever. When the game's progress moves more quickly than I can achieve my goals, I decide to quit and find another game which might not change so rapidly. (never happens of course)
So yes, I hate change, and I certainly hate new MMO's that come out that are missing the features from earlier titles that I never completely got done with (such as massive dragon raids) so that's why I'm back in 2003, finally getting a chance to progress towards my goals that I was thwarted from doing back in the day.
Yup MMO's today are just way to fast.
They need to slow the F down. by ALOT your leveling experience for an average gamer should take a couple months. not 2 weeks.
You are not resistant to change. I don't believe you are. change however needs to be good. and what we have right now is so far away from what MMO's once where that its undesirable to play.
I just cannot bring myself to return t those old games. I want eyecandy asswell. i and i think alot of others need a new game with the old core concept of what an mmo should be.
I'm 41 and far rom set in my ways and yes I do accept change BUT since I have seen both older mmos and newer mmos I know the difference between the quality of mmos like many other older gamers before me have seen as well. Today mmos are so shallow with no depth at all. Everything today as about convenience and quick satisfaction. The older mmos were all about putting time and effort into your mmo. Actually enjoying the journey to the end not rushing to finish the game just to raid or go play another mmo. I believe most people back then only played 1 mmo at a time and enjoyed the journey. There was actually some mmo pride back then as well.
Wait...the op's primary point was about hasty "everybody knows" generalizations often being incorrect...except the one he closed his title with, of course.
Oh, never mind. Just let the old guys enjoy their fun.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal As a pessimistic gamer all I can say to new MMORPG's is you've ruined your own lands! You'll not ruin mine!
Shouldn't you give Fippy Darkpaw credit for that? lol
Thanks, OP, for the link, though there are some typos. I can also refute the slide that states as a fact, "Social security benefits automatically increase with inflation." They do NOT "automatically" increase with inflation. It takes an act if congress to provide Cost of Living Allowance (COLA) increases. Also, an increase of 3% when inflation runs higher is not the same, is it?
There is a HUGE fallacy that states, "Change is ALWAYS good, and if you do not agree, you are: inflexible; stupid; old; nostalgic." It never occurs to others that maybe, just maybe, some players actually LIKED the old games. This concept seems to be unfathomable to some people.
If my bathwater is just right, why on earth would I add hot or cold water to it? Simply to make a change?
I am not saying that old MMOs that had the RPG element still in their games were perfect. There was much left to be desired in many of them. However, they were much closer to a game I enjoyed than today's MMOs that have dropped the RPG element from their games. Today's MMOs have added way too much cold water for my tastes. I actually like some of the changes incorporated. Not enough to outweigh the bad changes, though.
I am happy for all the gamers that thought the old games had too much hot water for them. The genre has added enough cold water to cool off the games for them. Enjoy!
They are just too tepid now for my tastes.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
42 and same, the new mmorgs are designed to provide layers of simple functionality, and come from devs trying to apply single player thinking with grouping applied. You even see devs arguing same in this very forum if you look hard enough. Great and talented devs are not allowed to design complex games because they sell less boxes/shareholders involved therefore modern mmorgs are simpler as they have to appeal to the lowest common denominator - and how can the lowest common denominator grow I'm such an environment??
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
So you're going to sit in the same old chilly tub and keep hollering for the old lady to come turn the hot water back on?
OK, but that only leads to pruney fingertips (and possibly hypothermia).
Might be easier to adjust, lean over and turn the tap yourself. :shrug:
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
There comes a time where that bath water just gets too murky and needs to be emptied and refilled - but with the latest version of my favourite bubble bath!
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Comments
This ^^^
Best example ... an encounter called Faction Champion back at tier 9 WOTLK WOW raid. You fight against NPCs with player classes, abilities, and AI. There is no aggro table. NPCs would and hit mage/healers first. They used CCs, and heal.
What was the result? People complained that it was too hard, and it was nerfed, and never tried again.
Players want a pattern they can learn and beat (hence all the pattern based boss fight), and NOT really smart NPCs that can defeat players again, again, and again.
You need to read up on some more recent brain science. I have. The "middle aged" brain, for example, uses other tricks to get around any changes that happen as a result of aging. *As long as you continue to use your brain to learn new things as you age. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't, and yes, they see their cognitive function decline as a result of not using it enough. Those of us who don't sit around like veggies watching dumb TV are less likely to have these problems.
In addition, this doesn't apply to people who age as "experts" at a skill or skills. For example, a 60 year old pilot who flies a plane regularly, is likely to be better at it than when he was in his "prime" learning age. He will decline physically before he declines mentally. This is another reason why older folks are working farther into old age in many industries these days.
I read a couple books about current brain science every year. Here's a good one that will break a lot of those old myths that float around where younger people like to think they are somehow superior to their elders, despite their complete lack of experience at much:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Secret-Life-Grown-up-Brain/dp/B0057D9MD6
The secret to keeping your brain fresh as you age is learning novel things. Just like lifting weights, you need to work that brain muscle to keep it in shape.
BTW, doing this also helps stave off aging problems such as dementia and Alzheimer's. Keep learning!
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Today's mainstream MMO's grab you by the hand and walk you through an invisible boundary maze filled with flashing lights and glowing trails. MMO's today are a glorified global chat room filled with instancing and an ever increasing trend to restrict bag/bank space so you spend more cash.
That was a really long way to say "I really didn't read your post, so since you replied to him I will assume you are disagreeing with him."
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
huh? I can only assume you played DAOC after they gutted it to try to attract the WoW crowd.
I played DAOC for years on Merlin and then on Mordred...
Getting to Max level wasn't easy. It took months to hit Max level and that was when you were grouped to fight higher level content and avoid the xp loss of dying.. Solo'ing was very slow until the release of newer classes (Bonedancer) years later.
The PvP was in designated areas but was free from the lame Battleground , even sides, painless death, instant respawn crap that WoW made popular. PvP was in a HUGE area and was an open world 3 way battle that even had Keeps to fight over. the Open world approach provided tons of room for tactic, scouting, flanking, etc.... Losing a fight meant to lost, it took along time to travel back even with the realm teleporters.
Sadly the DAOC that is left today, is a streamline, easy mode, max level, 3 faction PvP lite game.
I read the posts above, and responded. There's nothing long about my post either, unless you are a slow reader.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I hold on to movies of 70s music of 70s and games of 90s and early 2000ish.
I dont embrace most of today movies are swallow music these days is terible and games are utter crap.
Not for all catagories offcorse, some exceptions.
If something of today is good ill buy it np.
I just bought star trek into darkness and last season walking dead.
I also have bioshock infinite metro lastlight.
Im gonne buy latest in PC tech(desktop).
But have no smartphone-tablet or any of those new devices.
As older person(very fond of my privacy) i dont have facebook-twitter or any social media.
Bottem line i still want old music, old movies and walk on street with no phone or any tech that can trace me haha..
Don't mean i embrace nothing new, i realy do, its just that im very selective and my taste if it won't compromise my privacy lol.
New game im looking forward to is the witcher 3 in 2014 new generation game but prolly with old hardcore values.
MMO's for me is over i let that to young people.
Btw i realy don't care what others say about me as older person and there clich
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
I mainly think about AI in relation to strategy games, not MMOs and AI in strategy games is still pretty terrible unfortunately. You can program an AI with infinite numbers of patterns (which is why chess AI can beat human expert players) but I've never seen an AI which can react well to an unforseen development. Which is why, once you learn the AI's patterns it becomes easy to beat.
It's not that they are deliberately making that AIs dumb to let the players win either. Most strategy gamers clamor for better AI which is more of a challenge but no one has been able to deliver.
No, no, I'm talking about DAoC at release.
Very shallow and simple game to level (grind mobs, move to next spot, grind more mobs, etc... can't say that's rocket science right) and PvP that grow old fast as end game (once you'd taken a couple of keeps, you had seen them all).
Unlike many "oldtimers", I don't confuse tedium with difficulty or depth, even though I'm and old gamer too.
My computer is better than yours.
Actually, when I think of it, I am resistant to change. I'm currently playing a free shard reset to 2003 (pre-SI) and really enjoying myself. Totally not interested in what DAOC has become in its current state.
I think I know why too. It isn't so much because I'm older, but more due to the fact that being a more casual player I never get to "complete" the content as originally presented before the development team comes along and drastically revamps the game and I quit in frustration.
This pattern actually happened with several MMO's, including Lineage 1 (where a significant nerf to my Wizard totally changed the game play), to DAOC where there was first SI (which I managed to hold on and tolerate) but then they went forward with TOA, New frontiers and I was out.
I wanted to get to realm rank 10L10 before they changed the game mechanics completely making it necessary for me to now grind through numerous PVE instances and weapons to get competitive in PVP, while all I wanted to do at that time was PVP and earn more realm ranks, (which were no longer good enough)
The current freeshard has none of this, and I am quite happily leveling up a Skald which I hope to one day get into the upper tiers of the RR system.
WOW was the same way, I was with my guild fighting our way through the AQ 40 content, with the Four Horseman on the near horizon, and then they came out with BC, totally invalidating the work I had done so far, making my current goals meaningless and setting a whole new set of objectives in front of me. So I left.
Now EVE is the exception to this, and I believe its because no matter what new content they decide to add, first, I can totally ignore it (such as planetary exploration) and focus on what I enjoyed doing 4 years ago if I like, (i.e. PVP in 0.0 or something).
I even did some new things, such as living in wormholes, because while new, still was very familiar and choosing to do them did nothing to derail me from any previously set goals.
I actually despise holiday events in MMO's, because they now provide new content that I feel compelled to do (even if only fluff) and again, distracts me from my planned goals and objectives, which due to time constraints I'm normally always struggle to meet.
Blame it on my completionist nature, I have to complete all content, be it every quest in the game on the way up during leveling, or in dungeons or what ever. When the game's progress moves more quickly than I can achieve my goals, I decide to quit and find another game which might not change so rapidly. (never happens of course)
So yes, I hate change, and I certainly hate new MMO's that come out that are missing the features from earlier titles that I never completely got done with (such as massive dragon raids) so that's why I'm back in 2003, finally getting a chance to progress towards my goals that I was thwarted from doing back in the day.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Lol , our opinions are our own. For me and t he many "oldtimers" I enjoyed the game mechanics of the original DAOC that involved reply on groups to kill dangerous higher level mobs and where a mistake / death cost you xp, time and effort to recover from. The open PvP where anything could happen, where organizing more people, having a plan could turn the tides of battle/siege that actually gave you a tangible reward and the loser a tangible loss.
I am sorry that you felt DAOC was tedious and shallow, I can only image how inane you must view the current culture of MMOs that require even less commitment, effort, attention, challenge and risk.
Today's MMO's may be shinier,with better graphics and animations. But there is little to no immersion. You visit Zone A,complete quests from quest givers who literally stand out from the crowd because they have shiny marks above their heads. Play for 8 hours get 20 levels.Rinse and repeat from zone to zone until you are max level and then start raiding/PvP. The world may be huge on paper,but in reality any player can fly/port or what have you from one end of the world to another in seconds.
I'll use EQ as an example (as that is one most Oldtimers will recall). You didn't know who had quests and who didn't. You had to visit every nook and cranny. You had to explore. You didn't gain 20 levels in a day. It took (at that time) weeks and weeks to get to level 20. When you left an area in that game,you damn well knew every inch of that zone. Only 2 classes really allowed fast "world Travel" and you either ran,waited for a boat or payed a small amount to one of those 2 classes to get you where you wanted to be in a quicker fashion.
In the new games for the most part,mobs leash. You aggro to many, you can run. In the older games they chased you down,stomped on you, then stomped on anyone nearby,then they went home. Anyone remember Blackburrow an the massive lowbie mob trains when we all first got there? Other than the occasional "oops" moment in the new games it's likely that you will only die a handful of times while leveling to the cap in the new games.
I dislike instancing. It forces you,your group or your raid "outside' of the game world and into a spot to call your very own. There is again,no immersion. Nobody is in zone to see or hear the boss shout and yell,nobody to cheer you (or jeer you) when you finally down them. You have nobody from outside to cheer you on. In many ways to me it's like winning a race where I was the only one running.
Yup MMO's today are just way to fast.
They need to slow the F down. by ALOT your leveling experience for an average gamer should take a couple months. not 2 weeks.
You are not resistant to change. I don't believe you are. change however needs to be good. and what we have right now is so far away from what MMO's once where that its undesirable to play.
I just cannot bring myself to return t those old games. I want eyecandy asswell. i and i think alot of others need a new game with the old core concept of what an mmo should be.
nah .. two weeks is fine. There are very few games i want to stuck in for months.
Wait...the op's primary point was about hasty "everybody knows" generalizations often being incorrect...except the one he closed his title with, of course.
Oh, never mind. Just let the old guys enjoy their fun.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Thanks, OP, for the link, though there are some typos. I can also refute the slide that states as a fact,
"Social security benefits automatically increase with inflation."
They do NOT "automatically" increase with inflation. It takes an act if congress to provide Cost of Living Allowance (COLA) increases. Also, an increase of 3% when inflation runs higher is not the same, is it?
There is a HUGE fallacy that states, "Change is ALWAYS good, and if you do not agree, you are: inflexible; stupid; old; nostalgic." It never occurs to others that maybe, just maybe, some players actually LIKED the old games. This concept seems to be unfathomable to some people.
If my bathwater is just right, why on earth would I add hot or cold water to it? Simply to make a change?
I am not saying that old MMOs that had the RPG element still in their games were perfect. There was much left to be desired in many of them. However, they were much closer to a game I enjoyed than today's MMOs that have dropped the RPG element from their games. Today's MMOs have added way too much cold water for my tastes. I actually like some of the changes incorporated. Not enough to outweigh the bad changes, though.
I am happy for all the gamers that thought the old games had too much hot water for them. The genre has added enough cold water to cool off the games for them. Enjoy!
They are just too tepid now for my tastes.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
That was awesome
I bet there are tons who wont even get it.
So you're going to sit in the same old chilly tub and keep hollering for the old lady to come turn the hot water back on?
OK, but that only leads to pruney fingertips (and possibly hypothermia).
Might be easier to adjust, lean over and turn the tap yourself. :shrug:
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D