Originally posted by AlBQuirky They are just too tepid now for my tastes.
So you're going to sit in the same old chilly tub and keep hollering for the old lady to come turn the hot water back on?OK, but that only leads to pruney fingertips (and possibly hypothermia).Might be easier to adjust, lean over and turn the tap yourself. :shrug:
I am quite capable of adjusting the water myself, but new MMOs have turned off my hot water!
It is funny you talk about hypothermia as that is one of the slides in the PowerPoint presentation, ie: Older people are more susceptible to hypothermia
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Lol rather the new bathtubs are shallower and has 100 different types of bubble bath in it and a shower running over it to appeal to everyone and lukewarm in case anyone doesn't like a nice hot bath, oh and gets topped up for a few seconds every 2 years.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom There comes a time where that bath water just gets too murky and needs to be emptied and refilled - but with the latest version of my favourite bubble bath!
Just think if new MMOs added massaging jets!
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
The perfect bath, deep, hot, your fav luxury soap and bubbles- jobs a good in.
If a modern mmorg dev created the perfect bath: warm, shallow so you cant 'drown' but wide enough to fit a dozen people , lots of generic soap and bubble brands, a shower head on the tap, jacoozi elements, bloody toys floating all over the place and a new toy thorn in every week, a harness to stop you slipping, a remote control for the taps (only 1 button)
Sorted too !
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I agree 100%. I been playing MMORPGs since March 1999 (Everquest 1). The newer MMOs hold my interest for just a month or so now, and then I cancel my account, remove it from my computer, and try in hopes for a good one =P
OP is bang on. Although I do believe that inflexibility increases as one gets older, I certainly think that is an affliction that affects only some people.
Additionally, I don't think this is something particularly relevant to men ages 30-45.
Many things in gaming have improved for the better since internet gaming began in the mid 90s. Plenty of genres and niches have developed and have done so very well.
I would gladly play EU IV or Civ 5 over anything made in 2000 from a similar genre.
Nothing in the MOBA genre from 10-15 years ago touches LoL or DOTA2.
Dragon Age, The Witcher, TES, and any of the more recent RPGs are better in many ways than what existed a gaming generation or two ago (albeit with some flaws).
Casual/puzzle/side-scroll games? Absolutely hands down...no comparison...games are exponentially better now.
See the trend? The problem is that MMORPGs have NOT improved. The whole point of an MMORPG is a living, breathing, dangerous world. The big 3: AC, EQ, and UO, were so expansive and open-ended compared to what is put out now. They all had some ruthless elements to them. They each had faults as pioneers in their respective fields...but the good outweighed the bad for all 3.
The generation that came right after were not bad either: ffxi and daoc were certainly good games. EVE has still maintained. EQ2 was a flawed but noble attempt to improve the genre.
And then it all blew up. The games turned into themeparks with accompanying nannies. In game cash shops gave away what could previously only be earned with gameplay. Dying became much harder. Death lost meaning. Bah, you've all heard it before...because it is all true.
Mark my words, some developer with enough cash and enough moxie is going to come along and nail the experience. It is too lucrative to stay this bad for too much longer.
Originally posted by Bladestrom ^^ eve is indeed the perfect example where niche = allow vast complexity and allow players to work things out and grow as part of the game design.
EVE is actually a fairly shallow game. It's focus on PvP means that it cannot develop complex PvE systems and thus presents rather shallow gameplay for a sandbox.
Playing Devils Advocate, one could easly argue that young people are more prone to manipulation because they have less prior experience of people trying to do that to them. Thus easier to sell them on something that is of inferior quality.
However, the real point here is that tastes are subjective and the assertions made aren't actualy mutualy exclusive. I think it would be difficult for anyone to argue that the nature of MMO's have NOT changed over the years. The question is whether those changes are generaly for the worse rather then the better....and that's a matter of subjective tastes.
I would argue that todays MMO's have become easier, more simplistic, more focused on solo play rather then community and social interaction and more focused on convenience and immediate gratification. I view those as negatives. It's entirely possible, but also completely irrelevent, that if I had no prior experience of any other types of games that I would be more accepting of such qualities and possibly even enjoy them.
However, such an assertion would be pointless even if true since it would imply an objective value judgement on something that is entirely subjective. E.G. that it would somehow be "better" that I like the things I dislike rather then the things I like.
Note that I do frequently try, buy and enjoy new games in other formats (not MMO's). However, the ones I enjoy often have some elements similar to other games I enjoyed previously. In order to test whether I was completely (or even largely) resistant to new gaming experiences, you'd have to (I think) find a WIDE variety of new games that were unique and entirely dissimilar to any sort of gaming experience I've ever tried before.....a rather tall order, if not entirely impossible.
Though I will accede to the proposition that I am quite resistant to gaming experiences that I find distatsefull and inferior to what I have experienced before.
Up to wow the next thing = bigger, more polished (regardless of genre), still serving and being loyal to the same niche market. blizzard introduced a development/business model that ignored these basic needs, and by implication retarded the whole genre.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Eve is a pvp game ^^ And is very complex (that doesn't mean buttons on a ui complex) I play as a care bear Incidently, it's the pvp and politics that makes the game complex.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Hi, first time poster, long time reader. I just wanted to know what/who do we even considers to be a old time gamer? Does it have to be about age 30s - mid 40s, or is this about the level of which our gaming expertise is in. I starting playing MMO's in 2000 - 2001 with the little free to play stuff: flyff, maple story, wonder land, conquer online, uo, TLotR, wow, grand fantasia, ffxi, gw2, ffxiv. I loved every single one of those games that I've played just like im sure everyone here as well. Im 26 with a wife and kid and I miss a lot of elements in old games that I wish was in new ones. Mainly the ones in swg pre-2003, and uo, the sandbox elements. I just think this new wave of MMO's is just for the masses, or younger gamers as some of you would put it. The younger people being new to MMO's and rpg's because of games like mass effect and dragon's age. But I still have high hopes, cause it seems like those old elements are starting to come back to new games. Go easy on me...
Originally posted by MindTrigger ...It has nothing at all to do with age, and has everything to do with asking players to enjoy Candyland when they would rather play Chess or Risk....
But playing chess requires camping the King; and that's repetitive and boring and easy. With chutes and ladders, I get to go down slides, weeee. All it needs now is to go F2P with cash shop!!
/sarcasm off
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2 ...I would argue that todays MMO's have become easier, more simplistic, more focused on solo play rather then community and social interaction and more focused on convenience and immediate gratification. I view those as negatives...
Agreed, and excellent posts!
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
It's less to do with age and more to do with experience, if a game player has been playing games for 20 -30 years ofc they are going to feel it when games stop getting more sophisticated and polished and becomes trivial bite sized snacked gaming where the goal is to keep you mildly interested for 45 mins.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
AI is indeed a lot more advanced than most people realize. However, (and this has been talked about quite a lot @ GDC converences and such) most games deliberately choose to not include complex AI. Why? Because most gamers don't actually want that. It's 'too hard', requires too much effort, is not 'fun enough'. It's for the same reason we have such dumbed down game mechanics. That's what sells, because that's what the majority of gamers want. And it's also a lot cheaper to develope, so why wouldn't studios go that route.
I mainly think about AI in relation to strategy games, not MMOs and AI in strategy games is still pretty terrible unfortunately. You can program an AI with infinite numbers of patterns (which is why chess AI can beat human expert players) but I've never seen an AI which can react well to an unforseen development. Which is why, once you learn the AI's patterns it becomes easy to beat.
It's not that they are deliberately making that AIs dumb to let the players win either. Most strategy gamers clamor for better AI which is more of a challenge but no one has been able to deliver.
Actually, they very much do dumb down AI (or simplify it) to make these games more accessible.
We are passed the days of AI where we didn't add something because we didn't know how to. We know how to make smart AI, we just often don't. Why? Because it's either too challenging for most gamers, too costly to develope, or both.
As an example you brought up chess. On the surface it may seem like the AI is just a number of programmed patterns that it sorts through. And if you were looking at the most basic chess AI, you would be right. That is how the lower difficulties of chess AI work. You find these in most of the generic chess games you can find (i.e. Chess Master). Then you have dedicated AI for chess, that primarily operates on weighted piece (your queen is more valuable than your pawn), combined with pathing restrictions & rules, on top of a system that does the same for their opponent, and predicts up to X number of steps what the opponent could possible do in the turns to come.
The later is an example of AI that doesn't get beaten. However, we don't find that in most chess programs. Why? Because people don't want to play a game they cannot beat. Most people play games to 'win', not to improve. And that's the key difference.
You can even look at Blizzard for example. They have games like starcraft (which actually has pretty good AI when you crank it), but u can also see that they limit it. They've also vocally admitted to tweaking AI difficulty on starcraft games, to better match player expectations. You then look at WoW, which has some of the dumbest AI mechanics, and it's hard to believe that the same company that makes an AI system such as starcraft's, made one so blatantly stupid (like WoW's) because they didn't know any better. No, it was a deliberate choice. An obvious one.
If you really want more of a challenge, then play some of the more challenging games. There are games of chess with different difficulty levels. Same with games like Go, risk, etc. Starcraft also has quite a high skill cap for strategy as well. The games are out there. They just aren't the current status quo.
Originally posted by Bladestrom It's less to do with age and more to do with experience, if a game player has been playing games for 20 -30 years ofc they are going to feel it when games stop getting more sophisticated and polished and becomes trivial bite sized snacked gaming where the goal is to keep you mildly interested for 45 mins.
Not a bad post for the highlighted part.
When you played MMORPGs for 10+ years, new games will automatically seem easier to you than when you were a newbie.
I've been playing video games for like over 40 years, there's not much which can surprise me anymore. I can figure out the basics of any new game in a very short time, and then move to the essential.
That doesn't make games automatically easier - that just makes me more experienced and therefore better at them.
Originally posted by Bladestrom It's less to do with age and more to do with experience, if a game player has been playing games for 20 -30 years ofc they are going to feel it when games stop getting more sophisticated and polished and becomes trivial bite sized snacked gaming where the goal is to keep you mildly interested for 45 mins.
Not a bad post for the highlighted part.
When you played MMORPGs for 10+ years, new games will automatically seem easier to you than when you were a newbie.
I've been playing video games for like over 40 years, there's not much which can surprise me anymore. I can figure out the basics of any new game in a very short time, and then move to the essential.
That doesn't make games automatically easier - that just makes me more experienced and therefore better at them.
So then could that just be what we are all going through. That after playing MMO's for more then 10+ years that it seems easier to all of us and therefore are bite sized snacks to us lol.
Originally posted by Bladestrom Eve is a pvp game ^^ And is very complex (that doesn't mean buttons on a ui complex) I play as a care bear Incidently, it's the pvp and politics that makes the game complex.
EVE politics always feel like a bad reality tv show. No substence to it, just a bunch of petty people doing stupid stuff and getting away with it due to the stupidity and/or apathy of the other players.
So then could that just be what we are all going through. That after playing MMO's for more then 10+ years that it seems easier to all of us and therefore are bite sized snacks to us lol.
Actually that is not true... When I quit a new MMO because it is too easy, or gets boring too fast, I end up going back to the MMO I been playing for the last 10 years since it is STILL more of a challenge and has more things to do than most the half-baked assembly-line MMOs that most companies are putting out today.
To make things worse they market them F2P which attracts the worst communities...
Well as I consider myself to be a fossil as I'm 57 and no longer classed as a teenager sadly. I feel that I can adapt and evolve far better now than I did when I was a lot younger. The only thing in gaming which I cannot do now which I could do 15 years ago is I cannot stay up until stupid oclock in the morning raiding and kicking ass as I have a social and working life now which is allowing me to leave a legacy for my only son who is 22.
Don't tell him this though or he will get lazy like most of them are these days I feel as a gamer I am far more tolerant and have been able to use gaming and other parts of my working life to self develop so all this myth about old gamers not being able to adapt is not applicable imo.
I feel I have far more thinking time now as a mature person I do not rush into decisions and can make better judgments which save me having to rinse and repeat, because as you get older time gets shorter and rinse and repeat means I have less time to get it right than a younger person. I think I'm one of the most positive people you will ever meet as I treat every day as a Friday and don't care if I don't see next Friday as I use and abuse every day to the fullest that I can.
More and more we see folks in our daily life moaning like hell and I too moan this is a gene I have inherited from my father who does my head in and I'm seeing this more and more in me now even though I'm trying to fight it. One good thing about my age is I can afford to buy and throw away a game which is shit and move on and buy another without blinking because I have a passive income which I mentioned before I'll be leaving my son. I throw away games like most families throw away waste food!
I can get enjoyment from playing a game for 1 hour or 6 hours it matters not to me but what does matter to me in gaming is the loss or lack of community, this has fallen away over the last ten years and imo that's why many games feel shit. Take a look at EQI the community in that game was amazing and while I never played Wow I keep hearing people say the community is not like it used to be in Vanilla Wow. So I may end up playing a game for ten years again one day if it ever manages to create the feeling of community and team work like them early MMO's used to achieve. This is another reason why I feel many MMO's today are poor is that they have been designed around the single player aspect and not the group team play aspect.
I have spent over a $1000 to play a game which is not even out yet {Star Citizen} and the reason for this is the community and whilst this is not me advertising it's me telling people this game has that community on the forums, whether it has it in the final game we will have to wait and see. I flew over to gamescom recently from the UK to meet the guys from RSI and am I glad I did. I even worked the whole day for them for free to help them get their hanger module up and running for their evening event and if you what to know who I am on their boards I use the name Debt-Collector.
Everyone has it in them to be either a good or bad gamers, but if you make the most of your gaming time then it will always be a good experience and if you find that you rage a lot then go join the marines and kick some serious butt or try RL PVP because once you die I that you dead pal!
So to finish older gamers are both more tolerant and able to adapt and think outside the box too...
Originally posted by MindTrigger ...It has nothing at all to do with age, and has everything to do with asking players to enjoy Candyland when they would rather play Chess or Risk....
But playing chess requires camping the King; and that's repetitive and boring and easy. With chutes and ladders, I get to go down slides, weeee. All it needs now is to go F2P with cash shop!!
/sarcasm off
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2 ...I would argue that todays MMO's have become easier, more simplistic, more focused on solo play rather then community and social interaction and more focused on convenience and immediate gratification. I view those as negatives...
Agreed, and excellent posts!
Thanks, the highlighted portion made me smile today.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Bladestrom It's less to do with age and more to do with experience, if a game player has been playing games for 20 -30 years ofc they are going to feel it when games stop getting more sophisticated and polished and becomes trivial bite sized snacked gaming where the goal is to keep you mildly interested for 45 mins.
Not a bad post for the highlighted part. When you played MMORPGs for 10+ years, new games will automatically seem easier to you than when you were a newbie.
I've been playing video games for like over 40 years, there's not much which can surprise me anymore. I can figure out the basics of any new game in a very short time, and then move to the essential.
That doesn't make games automatically easier - that just makes me more experienced and therefore better at them.
So then could that just be what we are all going through. That after playing MMO's for more then 10+ years that it seems easier to all of us and therefore are bite sized snacks to us lol.
That may factor in a little bit, but for me, games HAVE gotten easier, not ONLY because I am better at them, but because they are designed to not let players fail. If the group you were in in EverQuest (for example) messed up a camp break, you all died. If a player AoE'd a mezzed group, you died. Most "monster groups" are designed to be solo-able these days. Pick off the outer ones while the others just stand there watching, rinse, repeat. Finally, you can take on the remaining three monsters all at once to finish up.
Let's look at telegraphing. Easier by design, because players just can not figure out for themselves that fire hurts and burns. Players no longer "react", but instead have "precognition-like" abilities. Easier.
When was the last time you failed a crafting attempt (if you craft)?
Yes, there is a little bit of "I am a better player now than 10 years ago", but it is a minor factor.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
As an example you brought up chess. On the surface it may seem like the AI is just a number of programmed patterns that it sorts through. And if you were looking at the most basic chess AI, you would be right. That is how the lower difficulties of chess AI work. You find these in most of the generic chess games you can find (i.e. Chess Master). Then you have dedicated AI for chess, that primarily operates on weighted piece (your queen is more valuable than your pawn), combined with pathing restrictions & rules, on top of a system that does the same for their opponent, and predicts up to X number of steps what the opponent could possible do in the turns to come.
The later is an example of AI that doesn't get beaten. However, we don't find that in most chess programs. Why? Because people don't want to play a game they cannot beat. Most people play games to 'win', not to improve. And that's the key difference.
Sure, you can make a complex algorithm and in a game like Chess or Scrabble where there is a limited number of possible moves/board positions and the computer can be programmed to predict the possibility of every one the computer can "play" very well. (maybe Starcraft is like this too? I don't play it.) . The problem comes when the computer has to actually react to player behavior or unforseen circumstances. Like in Civilization, the higher difficulty levels simply allow the AI to cheat. I'm sure if they could program a better AI in those games they would, even if they just reserved it for higher difficulty levels but no one that I know of has figured out a way yet.
Not saying MMO AI couldn't be improved (the example of targetting the healer or using skills is certainly doable. I know some mobs in LOTRO used to try to kite you into larger packs of their friends which was annoying but cool at the same time. I don't know if they still have that AI). Like a lot of threads here say though, most current gen MMOs are made for the lowest common denominator, not people who want a challenge.
Older gamers arent resistant to change. We are resistant to the consistent dumbing down and simplifying of games.
15 years ago MMO were a challenge. An adventure. They took time and some effort to make it as a player.
Now its a /faceroll from 1-65
Yeah, it couldn't have anything to do with the fact that we've been doing the same thing over and over for 15 years. It couldn't be that at all. /facepalm
15 years ago games weren't more challenging. We had less experience and our less responsive hardware and software made it seem more challenging. These days we down a boss. Back then you had to beat the shitty movement, squint to figure out what you were looking at due to the shitty graphics, and triumph over the shitty network performance on top of beating the boss.
Go find a UO server based on pre-Trammel, play for a while and then try and tell me it's challenging. lol
Comments
It is funny you talk about hypothermia as that is one of the slides in the PowerPoint presentation, ie: Older people are more susceptible to hypothermia
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
If a modern mmorg dev created the perfect bath: warm, shallow so you cant 'drown' but wide enough to fit a dozen people , lots of generic soap and bubble brands, a shower head on the tap, jacoozi elements, bloody toys floating all over the place and a new toy thorn in every week, a harness to stop you slipping, a remote control for the taps (only 1 button)
Sorted too !
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
OP is bang on. Although I do believe that inflexibility increases as one gets older, I certainly think that is an affliction that affects only some people.
Additionally, I don't think this is something particularly relevant to men ages 30-45.
Many things in gaming have improved for the better since internet gaming began in the mid 90s. Plenty of genres and niches have developed and have done so very well.
I would gladly play EU IV or Civ 5 over anything made in 2000 from a similar genre.
Nothing in the MOBA genre from 10-15 years ago touches LoL or DOTA2.
Dragon Age, The Witcher, TES, and any of the more recent RPGs are better in many ways than what existed a gaming generation or two ago (albeit with some flaws).
Casual/puzzle/side-scroll games? Absolutely hands down...no comparison...games are exponentially better now.
See the trend? The problem is that MMORPGs have NOT improved. The whole point of an MMORPG is a living, breathing, dangerous world. The big 3: AC, EQ, and UO, were so expansive and open-ended compared to what is put out now. They all had some ruthless elements to them. They each had faults as pioneers in their respective fields...but the good outweighed the bad for all 3.
The generation that came right after were not bad either: ffxi and daoc were certainly good games. EVE has still maintained. EQ2 was a flawed but noble attempt to improve the genre.
And then it all blew up. The games turned into themeparks with accompanying nannies. In game cash shops gave away what could previously only be earned with gameplay. Dying became much harder. Death lost meaning. Bah, you've all heard it before...because it is all true.
Mark my words, some developer with enough cash and enough moxie is going to come along and nail the experience. It is too lucrative to stay this bad for too much longer.
EVE is actually a fairly shallow game. It's focus on PvP means that it cannot develop complex PvE systems and thus presents rather shallow gameplay for a sandbox.
Playing Devils Advocate, one could easly argue that young people are more prone to manipulation because they have less prior experience of people trying to do that to them. Thus easier to sell them on something that is of inferior quality.
However, the real point here is that tastes are subjective and the assertions made aren't actualy mutualy exclusive. I think it would be difficult for anyone to argue that the nature of MMO's have NOT changed over the years. The question is whether those changes are generaly for the worse rather then the better....and that's a matter of subjective tastes.
I would argue that todays MMO's have become easier, more simplistic, more focused on solo play rather then community and social interaction and more focused on convenience and immediate gratification. I view those as negatives. It's entirely possible, but also completely irrelevent, that if I had no prior experience of any other types of games that I would be more accepting of such qualities and possibly even enjoy them.
However, such an assertion would be pointless even if true since it would imply an objective value judgement on something that is entirely subjective. E.G. that it would somehow be "better" that I like the things I dislike rather then the things I like.
Note that I do frequently try, buy and enjoy new games in other formats (not MMO's). However, the ones I enjoy often have some elements similar to other games I enjoyed previously. In order to test whether I was completely (or even largely) resistant to new gaming experiences, you'd have to (I think) find a WIDE variety of new games that were unique and entirely dissimilar to any sort of gaming experience I've ever tried before.....a rather tall order, if not entirely impossible.
Though I will accede to the proposition that I am quite resistant to gaming experiences that I find distatsefull and inferior to what I have experienced before.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
But playing chess requires camping the King; and that's repetitive and boring and easy. With chutes and ladders, I get to go down slides, weeee. All it needs now is to go F2P with cash shop!!
/sarcasm off
Agreed, and excellent posts!
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Actually, they very much do dumb down AI (or simplify it) to make these games more accessible.
We are passed the days of AI where we didn't add something because we didn't know how to. We know how to make smart AI, we just often don't. Why? Because it's either too challenging for most gamers, too costly to develope, or both.
As an example you brought up chess. On the surface it may seem like the AI is just a number of programmed patterns that it sorts through. And if you were looking at the most basic chess AI, you would be right. That is how the lower difficulties of chess AI work. You find these in most of the generic chess games you can find (i.e. Chess Master). Then you have dedicated AI for chess, that primarily operates on weighted piece (your queen is more valuable than your pawn), combined with pathing restrictions & rules, on top of a system that does the same for their opponent, and predicts up to X number of steps what the opponent could possible do in the turns to come.
The later is an example of AI that doesn't get beaten. However, we don't find that in most chess programs. Why? Because people don't want to play a game they cannot beat. Most people play games to 'win', not to improve. And that's the key difference.
You can even look at Blizzard for example. They have games like starcraft (which actually has pretty good AI when you crank it), but u can also see that they limit it. They've also vocally admitted to tweaking AI difficulty on starcraft games, to better match player expectations. You then look at WoW, which has some of the dumbest AI mechanics, and it's hard to believe that the same company that makes an AI system such as starcraft's, made one so blatantly stupid (like WoW's) because they didn't know any better. No, it was a deliberate choice. An obvious one.
If you really want more of a challenge, then play some of the more challenging games. There are games of chess with different difficulty levels. Same with games like Go, risk, etc. Starcraft also has quite a high skill cap for strategy as well. The games are out there. They just aren't the current status quo.
Not a bad post for the highlighted part.
When you played MMORPGs for 10+ years, new games will automatically seem easier to you than when you were a newbie.
I've been playing video games for like over 40 years, there's not much which can surprise me anymore. I can figure out the basics of any new game in a very short time, and then move to the essential.
That doesn't make games automatically easier - that just makes me more experienced and therefore better at them.
My computer is better than yours.
So then could that just be what we are all going through. That after playing MMO's for more then 10+ years that it seems easier to all of us and therefore are bite sized snacks to us lol.
EVE politics always feel like a bad reality tv show. No substence to it, just a bunch of petty people doing stupid stuff and getting away with it due to the stupidity and/or apathy of the other players.
Actually that is not true... When I quit a new MMO because it is too easy, or gets boring too fast, I end up going back to the MMO I been playing for the last 10 years since it is STILL more of a challenge and has more things to do than most the half-baked assembly-line MMOs that most companies are putting out today.
To make things worse they market them F2P which attracts the worst communities...
Well as I consider myself to be a fossil as I'm 57 and no longer classed as a teenager sadly. I feel that I can adapt and evolve far better now than I did when I was a lot younger. The only thing in gaming which I cannot do now which I could do 15 years ago is I cannot stay up until stupid oclock in the morning raiding and kicking ass as I have a social and working life now which is allowing me to leave a legacy for my only son who is 22.
Don't tell him this though or he will get lazy like most of them are these days
I feel as a gamer I am far more tolerant and have been able to use gaming and other parts of my working life to self develop so all this myth about old gamers not being able to adapt is not applicable imo.
I feel I have far more thinking time now as a mature person I do not rush into decisions and can make better judgments which save me having to rinse and repeat, because as you get older time gets shorter and rinse and repeat means I have less time to get it right than a younger person. I think I'm one of the most positive people you will ever meet as I treat every day as a Friday and don't care if I don't see next Friday as I use and abuse every day to the fullest that I can.
More and more we see folks in our daily life moaning like hell and I too moan this is a gene I have inherited from my father who does my head in and I'm seeing this more and more in me now even though I'm trying to fight it.
One good thing about my age is I can afford to buy and throw away a game which is shit and move on and buy another without blinking because I have a passive income which I mentioned before I'll be leaving my son. I throw away games like most families throw away waste food!
I can get enjoyment from playing a game for 1 hour or 6 hours it matters not to me but what does matter to me in gaming is the loss or lack of community, this has fallen away over the last ten years and imo that's why many games feel shit. Take a look at EQI the community in that game was amazing and while I never played Wow I keep hearing people say the community is not like it used to be in Vanilla Wow. So I may end up playing a game for ten years again one day if it ever manages to create the feeling of community and team work like them early MMO's used to achieve. This is another reason why I feel many MMO's today are poor is that they have been designed around the single player aspect and not the group team play aspect.
I have spent over a $1000 to play a game which is not even out yet {Star Citizen} and the reason for this is the community and whilst this is not me advertising it's me telling people this game has that community on the forums, whether it has it in the final game we will have to wait and see. I flew over to gamescom recently from the UK to meet the guys from RSI and am I glad I did. I even worked the whole day for them for free to help them get their hanger module up and running for their evening event and if you what to know who I am on their boards I use the name Debt-Collector.
Everyone has it in them to be either a good or bad gamers, but if you make the most of your gaming time then it will always be a good experience and if you find that you rage a lot then go join the marines and kick some serious butt or try RL PVP because once you die I that you dead pal!
So to finish older gamers are both more tolerant and able to adapt and think outside the box too...
Bandit
Asbo
Older gamers arent resistant to change. We are resistant to the consistent dumbing down and simplifying of games.
15 years ago MMO were a challenge. An adventure. They took time and some effort to make it as a player.
Now its a /faceroll from 1-65
Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.
Games Played: Too Many
Thanks, the highlighted portion made me smile today.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Let's look at telegraphing. Easier by design, because players just can not figure out for themselves that fire hurts and burns. Players no longer "react", but instead have "precognition-like" abilities. Easier.
When was the last time you failed a crafting attempt (if you craft)?
Yes, there is a little bit of "I am a better player now than 10 years ago", but it is a minor factor.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Sure, you can make a complex algorithm and in a game like Chess or Scrabble where there is a limited number of possible moves/board positions and the computer can be programmed to predict the possibility of every one the computer can "play" very well. (maybe Starcraft is like this too? I don't play it.) . The problem comes when the computer has to actually react to player behavior or unforseen circumstances. Like in Civilization, the higher difficulty levels simply allow the AI to cheat. I'm sure if they could program a better AI in those games they would, even if they just reserved it for higher difficulty levels but no one that I know of has figured out a way yet.
Not saying MMO AI couldn't be improved (the example of targetting the healer or using skills is certainly doable. I know some mobs in LOTRO used to try to kite you into larger packs of their friends which was annoying but cool at the same time. I don't know if they still have that AI). Like a lot of threads here say though, most current gen MMOs are made for the lowest common denominator, not people who want a challenge.
Yeah, it couldn't have anything to do with the fact that we've been doing the same thing over and over for 15 years. It couldn't be that at all. /facepalm
15 years ago games weren't more challenging. We had less experience and our less responsive hardware and software made it seem more challenging. These days we down a boss. Back then you had to beat the shitty movement, squint to figure out what you were looking at due to the shitty graphics, and triumph over the shitty network performance on top of beating the boss.
Go find a UO server based on pre-Trammel, play for a while and then try and tell me it's challenging. lol