I cant believe this 100%. If they knew more than the players they wouldn't have a huge portion of their games go belly up. We have had more companies go bankrupt, sell out, games fail, get closed down in the past 5 years than the entire existence of mmorpg's. Simple truth is they are trying to gain WOW's fame and fortunes, the fact is WOW came at a perfect time and will never be copied again. Every company tries to copy that game and the market is flooded with these style games. And for most this is all they know and expect every game to be like having fear to try different styles.
Most these new aged games get a huge flock of gamers for a few weeks then die out and jump to the next game. If they knew anything about mmo's they would want longevity and to keep their players for more profits down the road. This isn't the case, and this is why you see more and more mmo companies going under and selling out to larger ones that can suck up a bad game here and there.
Spend 5 years to create a game and die out in a month does not seem logical nor profitable. Game quality just sucks, many people forget how and why WOW became successful.And it did not have a lot to do with the quality of that game, their first month was a disaster and could have been the death of it, many games today that just suffer a day or two of a bad launch usually don't make it long.
Knowing more doesn't mean being perfect.
Even so, the games aren't dying out. For all the talk of SWToR's failure, they are still producing new content and the game is still making money with something like half a million subscribers and millions of players. Compare this to pretty much every single "old school" game that's been made since, oh, 2006 or so. None of them has made even a fraction of the money that SWToR has made. Even Age of Conan has been successful in the millions of dollars range and it is a huge flop of a game. It's all about the money. It doesn't matter if ten million players play for a day, or one player plays for ten million days. It's all the same thing when it comes to money.
Eve*, held up as an example of success could not have succeeded had it been funded using venture capital. The payments would have forced the game to shutdown pretty early on. Which is kind of the real answer. For an old school game to get made, they would need to be self funded in some way, whether that's through game revenue and an efficient operation, or whether it's through Crowd Funding. Money is the only thing that stands between starting any game, no matter what kind of game it is.
What would be nice if we had a REAL way to appeal to a developer or to get one to Liston to a larger group. First thing everyone here would say is " hay, just e-mail them " ....Now come on you should know better.
- I'm sure many here would love to see an Old School mmo.
- I'm sure many would say not.
- I'm sure many would say the OPINIONS would be all over the place on how it should be made. We should not have to give our OPINIONS.....Let them take care of that.
Here is my take on this subject, and yes its only my OPINION :
Many here don't know any better, they think of Old School = Old game. Even if it starts out as a niche mmo, I would think it would turn out to be a huge success. None the less it would be re-original since its been so long and at the very least still be a money maker for developers.
I wish mmorpg.com could look at our cry. Do an over all assessment of topics and appeal to a developer. Because as a one we have no voice......And last, I totally believe the new saying " vote with your wallet " is bull crap. We are starving from one release to the next and we all play everyone good or bad !
As you've been told before, the problem isn't that no one hears you crying. The problem is that you have nothing to support it.
If a sizable enough group exists for a specific, detailed feature set, bring them your data on it, because they evidently don't have the data that you do. I mean, seriously... a completely untapped and profitable market? Any dev would jump on that!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by SavageHorizon And what's your description of an old school mmo, fact is their are many mmos that offer what you are looking for. Let's be honest it comes down to graphics, if it didn't you would be playing those types of mmos.
many mmo's? please name them for me.
There are not alot. and yes it comes down to grapichs and a world.
The worlds of those old mmo's are empty. that is because they are empty. People off the post-wow crowd are not gonna launch up a 13y-old game and say het that looks great lets play it.
Now a new game with grapichs of today but mehcanics and a world from the past might actually get them to play and like it.
The fact that those worlds are
empty speaks volumes. There Is your reason right there why only indies make "old school" mmos.
You know.... I'm can't wait to see the upcoming indie Mmo wars. With only a
limited playerbase to fuel them. I'm curious as to who will be thelastman standing.
they are empty because they are empty.
there is nothing more discouraging in an mmo then a empty mmo world.
people are not giving those games the chance they deserve.
a launch is very important for an mmo in that way. specially if its an mmo wich encourages grouping.
so its a viscous cycle where people cannot give the game a fair shot because there are little people around at the starter areas. and not because people do not want to play them. Heck if you ask one of the poast wow kiddies what EQ is they go everwhat?
They are empty because there aren't enough people who want to play those kinds of games. There aren't enough people to keep those games in business. If there were, developers would make them. The problem is, this forum really doesn't represent a drop of piss in the MMORPG pool, people think there are tens or hundreds of thousands of old school MMO fans out there and it's just not true. There are hundreds, maybe a thousand or two, but that's all. That's not enough to get an old school MMO made and have it be successful.
People have to grow up and deal with reality.
lol at expecting people to play a game that is 15 years old and saying its dead because no one likes those types of games anymore. I am sure it has nothing to do with the graphics or only being so much you can patch an old game to have new stuff in it.
Originally posted by page975 What would be nice if we had a REAL way to appeal to a developer or to get one to Liston to a larger group. First thing everyone here would say is " hay, just e-mail them " ....Now come on you should know better.- I'm sure many here would love to see an Old School mmo.- I'm sure many would say not.- I'm sure many would say the OPINIONS would be all over the place on how it should be made. We should not have to give our OPINIONS.....Let them take care of that.Here is my take on this subject, and yes its only my OPINION :Many here don't know any better, they think of Old School = Old game. Even if it starts out as a niche mmo, I would think it would turn out to be a huge success. None the less it would be re-original since its been so long and at the very least still be a money maker for developers.I wish mmorpg.com could look at our cry. Do an over all assessment of topics and appeal to a developer. Because as a one we have no voice......And last, I totally believe the new saying " vote with your wallet " is bull crap. We are starving from one release to the next and we all play everyone good or bad !
As you've been told before, the problem isn't that no one hears you crying. The problem is that you have nothing to support it.
If a sizable enough group exists for a specific, detailed feature set, bring them your data on it, because they evidently don't have the data that you do. I mean, seriously... a completely untapped and profitable market? Any dev would jump on that!
As I said before your logic would be sound but we all know that the elephant in the room is World of Warcraft. You could likely come up with data that shows a sizeable group wants to play a UO style game or a EQ styled game. They still do not compare to the data by looking at the 12 million subscribers WoW brought in. I think by the design choices and the continued squeezing of that demographic despite not individually greatly out performing older games in their prime if not worst retention.
lol at expecting people to play a game that is 15 years old and saying its dead because no one likes those types of games anymore. I am sure it has nothing to do with the graphics or only being so much you can patch an old game to have new stuff in it.
When the only companies making what you want are indies or kickstarters, 9 times out of ten you're going to have to settle for a downscale in bells and whistles. Be it overall graphics, animations, advanced graphical techniques, etc...
The really amusing thing is it's rare to see many of these oldschool types back any type of project, there's always something wrong with it. Regardless of the fact they're among the few trying to cater to those wants and desires. It's almost as if the only thing they get pleasure from is tearing things down.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
What would be nice if we had a REAL way to appeal to a developer or to get one to Liston to a larger group. First thing everyone here would say is " hay, just e-mail them " ....Now come on you should know better.
- I'm sure many here would love to see an Old School mmo.
- I'm sure many would say not.
- I'm sure many would say the OPINIONS would be all over the place on how it should be made. We should not have to give our OPINIONS.....Let them take care of that.
Here is my take on this subject, and yes its only my OPINION :
Many here don't know any better, they think of Old School = Old game. Even if it starts out as a niche mmo, I would think it would turn out to be a huge success. None the less it would be re-original since its been so long and at the very least still be a money maker for developers.
I wish mmorpg.com could look at our cry. Do an over all assessment of topics and appeal to a developer. Because as a one we have no voice......And last, I totally believe the new saying " vote with your wallet " is bull crap. We are starving from one release to the next and we all play everyone good or bad !
As you've been told before, the problem isn't that no one hears you crying. The problem is that you have nothing to support it.
If a sizable enough group exists for a specific, detailed feature set, bring them your data on it, because they evidently don't have the data that you do. I mean, seriously... a completely untapped and profitable market? Any dev would jump on that!
As I said before your logic would be sound but we all know that the elephant in the room is World of Warcraft. You could likely come up with data that shows a sizeable group wants to play a UO style game or a EQ styled game. They still do not compare to the data by looking at the 12 million subscribers WoW brought in. I think by the design choices and the continued squeezing of that demographic despite not individually greatly out performing older games in their prime if not worst retention.
The sad/hilarious thing is... publishers are idiots. Complete and total idiots.
What publishers see, is that WoW has a lot of people playing. They think that by cloning WoW, it could work again. They don't understand what makes MMOs work long term, they don't understand why WoW took off in the first place.
And, as a result, almost every AAA WoW clone in the last 9 years has been a crushing and dismal failure.
It would be both safer, and probably more profitable, if they funded more niche MMOs, gave them smaller budgets, and groomed a stable of MMOs that all appeal to different players.
But, publishers are, what? Idiots. So instead, they keep going "Well... themeparks worked that one time, LET'S KEEP ON TRYING! I bet all those other clones failed because they weren't clone-y enough!"
What would be nice if we had a REAL way to appeal to a developer or to get one to Liston to a larger group. First thing everyone here would say is " hay, just e-mail them " ....Now come on you should know better.
- I'm sure many here would love to see an Old School mmo.
- I'm sure many would say not.
- I'm sure many would say the OPINIONS would be all over the place on how it should be made. We should not have to give our OPINIONS.....Let them take care of that.
Here is my take on this subject, and yes its only my OPINION :
Many here don't know any better, they think of Old School = Old game. Even if it starts out as a niche mmo, I would think it would turn out to be a huge success. None the less it would be re-original since its been so long and at the very least still be a money maker for developers.
I wish mmorpg.com could look at our cry. Do an over all assessment of topics and appeal to a developer. Because as a one we have no voice......And last, I totally believe the new saying " vote with your wallet " is bull crap. We are starving from one release to the next and we all play everyone good or bad !
As you've been told before, the problem isn't that no one hears you crying. The problem is that you have nothing to support it.
If a sizable enough group exists for a specific, detailed feature set, bring them your data on it, because they evidently don't have the data that you do. I mean, seriously... a completely untapped and profitable market? Any dev would jump on that!
I totally agree with Loktofiet here. The target audience is just too small.
Now, if you really want to do something to attract a developer's attention, try this.
Identify an old-school game. Find one close to one you'd like someone to develop.
Play the game. Play it a lot. Dedicated players are good for a company.
Recruit lots of other people to play it. A couple hundred thousand people should do, but more is better.
Support the game you chose. Companies really like to make money. Lots of it!
Stay with the game. Prove to the developers you're here for the long run.
If you grow your market segment and show willingness to support an 'old-school' game, you are more likely to influence developers to build a competitive product, filled with up-to-date graphics, modern touches and other nice things. Basically, You are going to have to grow your market segment from insignificant to a major market segment. In any market, the demographics (number of players, available $) will attract companies to serve that segment.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by page975 What would be nice if we had a REAL way to appeal to a developer or to get one to Liston to a larger group. First thing everyone here would say is " hay, just e-mail them " ....Now come on you should know better.- I'm sure many here would love to see an Old School mmo.- I'm sure many would say not.- I'm sure many would say the OPINIONS would be all over the place on how it should be made. We should not have to give our OPINIONS.....Let them take care of that.Here is my take on this subject, and yes its only my OPINION :Many here don't know any better, they think of Old School = Old game. Even if it starts out as a niche mmo, I would think it would turn out to be a huge success. None the less it would be re-original since its been so long and at the very least still be a money maker for developers.I wish mmorpg.com could look at our cry. Do an over all assessment of topics and appeal to a developer. Because as a one we have no voice......And last, I totally believe the new saying " vote with your wallet " is bull crap. We are starving from one release to the next and we all play everyone good or bad !
As you've been told before, the problem isn't that no one hears you crying. The problem is that you have nothing to support it.
If a sizable enough group exists for a specific, detailed feature set, bring them your data on it, because they evidently don't have the data that you do. I mean, seriously... a completely untapped and profitable market? Any dev would jump on that!
I totally agree with Loktofiet here. The target audience is just too small.
Now, if you really want to do something to attract a developer's attention, try this.
Identify an old-school game. Find one close to one you'd like someone to develop.
Play the game. Play it a lot. Dedicated players are good for a company.
Recruit lots of other people to play it. A couple hundred thousand people should do, but more is better.
Support the game you chose. Companies really like to make money. Lots of it!
Stay with the game. Prove to the developers you're here for the long run.
If you grow your market segment and show willingness to support an 'old-school' game, you are more likely to influence developers to build a competitive product, filled with up-to-date graphics, modern touches and other nice things. Basically, You are going to have to grow your market segment from insignificant to a major market segment. In any market, the demographics (number of players, available $) will attract companies to serve that segment.
But the math doesn't really ad up. You have a game like EQ peak at what 400-500k and held a steady base for a decade on subs. Many of the recent games may have surged a bit higher but dropped to levels likely lower than levels that same more 10 years old game about 3 months after release. Then its forced to go F2P. But EQ style game's market is smaller because its one old game vs. WoW and WoW clone population that are a large part of the genre. One to one outside of WoW the genre is not greatly out performing older games on subs while they're sub games.
What would be nice if we had a REAL way to appeal to a developer or to get one to Liston to a larger group. First thing everyone here would say is " hay, just e-mail them " ....Now come on you should know better.
- I'm sure many here would love to see an Old School mmo.
- I'm sure many would say not.
- I'm sure many would say the OPINIONS would be all over the place on how it should be made. We should not have to give our OPINIONS.....Let them take care of that.
Here is my take on this subject, and yes its only my OPINION :
Many here don't know any better, they think of Old School = Old game. Even if it starts out as a niche mmo, I would think it would turn out to be a huge success. None the less it would be re-original since its been so long and at the very least still be a money maker for developers.
I wish mmorpg.com could look at our cry. Do an over all assessment of topics and appeal to a developer. Because as a one we have no voice......And last, I totally believe the new saying " vote with your wallet " is bull crap. We are starving from one release to the next and we all play everyone good or bad !
As you've been told before, the problem isn't that no one hears you crying. The problem is that you have nothing to support it.
If a sizable enough group exists for a specific, detailed feature set, bring them your data on it, because they evidently don't have the data that you do. I mean, seriously... a completely untapped and profitable market? Any dev would jump on that!
I totally agree with Loktofiet here. The target audience is just too small.
Now, if you really want to do something to attract a developer's attention, try this.
Identify an old-school game. Find one close to one you'd like someone to develop.
Play the game. Play it a lot. Dedicated players are good for a company.
Recruit lots of other people to play it. A couple hundred thousand people should do, but more is better.
Support the game you chose. Companies really like to make money. Lots of it!
Stay with the game. Prove to the developers you're here for the long run.
If you grow your market segment and show willingness to support an 'old-school' game, you are more likely to influence developers to build a competitive product, filled with up-to-date graphics, modern touches and other nice things. Basically, You are going to have to grow your market segment from insignificant to a major market segment. In any market, the demographics (number of players, available $) will attract companies to serve that segment.
But the math doesn't really ad up. You have a game like EQ peak at what 400-500k and held a steady base for a decade on subs. Many of the recent games may have surged a bit higher but dropped to levels likely lower than levels that same more 10 years old game about 3 months after release. Then its forced to go F2P. But EQ style game's market is smaller because its one old game vs. WoW and WoW clone population that are a large part of the genre. One to one outside of WoW the genre is not greatly out performing older games on subs while they're sub games.
yup the retention of all these new great mmo's is lower then that of the oldschool mmo's wich have been held up for a decade until they wowified the hell out of em.
yet people still say there isnt a market for such a type of game. While over 90% of the current mmo population have never even heard or set foot in one such game yet they all are dying to tryout new mmos.
I bet that the retention of such an oldschool game would be bigger then any of the new mmo's because for that 90% its new and refreshing and all the old schoolers would love it.
What would be nice if we had a REAL way to appeal to a developer or to get one to Liston to a larger group. First thing everyone here would say is " hay, just e-mail them " ....Now come on you should know better.
- I'm sure many here would love to see an Old School mmo.
- I'm sure many would say not.
- I'm sure many would say the OPINIONS would be all over the place on how it should be made. We should not have to give our OPINIONS.....Let them take care of that.
Here is my take on this subject, and yes its only my OPINION :
Many here don't know any better, they think of Old School = Old game. Even if it starts out as a niche mmo, I would think it would turn out to be a huge success. None the less it would be re-original since its been so long and at the very least still be a money maker for developers.
I wish mmorpg.com could look at our cry. Do an over all assessment of topics and appeal to a developer. Because as a one we have no voice......And last, I totally believe the new saying " vote with your wallet " is bull crap. We are starving from one release to the next and we all play everyone good or bad !
As you've been told before, the problem isn't that no one hears you crying. The problem is that you have nothing to support it.
If a sizable enough group exists for a specific, detailed feature set, bring them your data on it, because they evidently don't have the data that you do. I mean, seriously... a completely untapped and profitable market? Any dev would jump on that!
I totally agree with Loktofiet here. The target audience is just too small.
Now, if you really want to do something to attract a developer's attention, try this.
Identify an old-school game. Find one close to one you'd like someone to develop.
Play the game. Play it a lot. Dedicated players are good for a company.
Recruit lots of other people to play it. A couple hundred thousand people should do, but more is better.
Support the game you chose. Companies really like to make money. Lots of it!
Stay with the game. Prove to the developers you're here for the long run.
If you grow your market segment and show willingness to support an 'old-school' game, you are more likely to influence developers to build a competitive product, filled with up-to-date graphics, modern touches and other nice things. Basically, You are going to have to grow your market segment from insignificant to a major market segment. In any market, the demographics (number of players, available $) will attract companies to serve that segment.
But the math doesn't really ad up. You have a game like EQ peak at what 400-500k and held a steady base for a decade on subs. Many of the recent games may have surged a bit higher but dropped to levels likely lower than levels that same more 10 years old game about 3 months after release. Then its forced to go F2P. But EQ style game's market is smaller because its one old game vs. WoW and WoW clone population that are a large part of the genre. One to one outside of WoW the genre is not greatly out performing older games on subs while they're sub games.
Thats where your data is wrong though. EQ was not stable with that for a decade, only a few years.
And today's games on average do not have lower populations than older games on average. The top games of today have the same or higher populations than the top games of the past - and there are more of them. They just started with 10+ times the populations.
Some are forced to go f2p because the game cost 100x more to make. Some choose to go f2p to make even more money.
The old games people left for the new games. They left for a myriad of reasons, but the games changed because people left them for the new ones.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
No. You can't even do this with AAA games that aren't MMOs.
With the exception of indie games, almost all games now take millions of dollars to make. This is why AAA titles are all very intuitive but never innovative.
As a developer, you wouldn't be able to pay me enough to even work on an MMO. Realistically, your only chance is to buy a large amount of stocks (ie. ownership) to a company and attend their meetings and have your say. Even then, with all due respect, I'd pull my stocks out of any company stupid enough to create an old school MMO.
What would be nice if we had a REAL way to appeal to a developer or to get one to Liston to a larger group. First thing everyone here would say is " hay, just e-mail them " ....Now come on you should know better.
- I'm sure many here would love to see an Old School mmo.
- I'm sure many would say not.
- I'm sure many would say the OPINIONS would be all over the place on how it should be made. We should not have to give our OPINIONS.....Let them take care of that.
Here is my take on this subject, and yes its only my OPINION :
Many here don't know any better, they think of Old School = Old game. Even if it starts out as a niche mmo, I would think it would turn out to be a huge success. None the less it would be re-original since its been so long and at the very least still be a money maker for developers.
I wish mmorpg.com could look at our cry. Do an over all assessment of topics and appeal to a developer. Because as a one we have no voice......And last, I totally believe the new saying " vote with your wallet " is bull crap. We are starving from one release to the next and we all play everyone good or bad !
As you've been told before, the problem isn't that no one hears you crying. The problem is that you have nothing to support it.
If a sizable enough group exists for a specific, detailed feature set, bring them your data on it, because they evidently don't have the data that you do. I mean, seriously... a completely untapped and profitable market? Any dev would jump on that!
I totally agree with Loktofiet here. The target audience is just too small.
Now, if you really want to do something to attract a developer's attention, try this.
Identify an old-school game. Find one close to one you'd like someone to develop.
Play the game. Play it a lot. Dedicated players are good for a company.
Recruit lots of other people to play it. A couple hundred thousand people should do, but more is better.
Support the game you chose. Companies really like to make money. Lots of it!
Stay with the game. Prove to the developers you're here for the long run.
If you grow your market segment and show willingness to support an 'old-school' game, you are more likely to influence developers to build a competitive product, filled with up-to-date graphics, modern touches and other nice things. Basically, You are going to have to grow your market segment from insignificant to a major market segment. In any market, the demographics (number of players, available $) will attract companies to serve that segment.
But the math doesn't really ad up. You have a game like EQ peak at what 400-500k and held a steady base for a decade on subs. Many of the recent games may have surged a bit higher but dropped to levels likely lower than levels that same more 10 years old game about 3 months after release. Then its forced to go F2P. But EQ style game's market is smaller because its one old game vs. WoW and WoW clone population that are a large part of the genre. One to one outside of WoW the genre is not greatly out performing older games on subs while they're sub games.
Thats where your data is wrong though. EQ was not stable with that for a decade, only a few years.
And today's games on average do not have lower populations than older games on average. The top games of today have the same or higher populations than the top games of the past - and there are more of them. They just started with 10+ times the populations.
Some are forced to go f2p because the game cost 100x more to make. Some choose to go f2p to make even more money.
The old games people left for the new games. They left for a myriad of reasons, but the games changed because people left them for the new ones.
^ this.
It's not very hard to find a population graph for the old games. They all show pretty clear the rise and fall of their subs and how long they held them. It wasn't stable at all.
People here call a game fail when it hits the same population levels that EQ had ( often times they have more ) then in the same "breath" say they have to remake an old school game if they want more people to play.
What would be nice if we had a REAL way to appeal to a developer or to get one to Liston to a larger group. First thing everyone here would say is " hay, just e-mail them " ....Now come on you should know better.
- I'm sure many here would love to see an Old School mmo.
- I'm sure many would say not.
- I'm sure many would say the OPINIONS would be all over the place on how it should be made. We should not have to give our OPINIONS.....Let them take care of that.
Here is my take on this subject, and yes its only my OPINION :
Many here don't know any better, they think of Old School = Old game. Even if it starts out as a niche mmo, I would think it would turn out to be a huge success. None the less it would be re-original since its been so long and at the very least still be a money maker for developers.
I wish mmorpg.com could look at our cry. Do an over all assessment of topics and appeal to a developer. Because as a one we have no voice......And last, I totally believe the new saying " vote with your wallet " is bull crap. We are starving from one release to the next and we all play everyone good or bad !
As you've been told before, the problem isn't that no one hears you crying. The problem is that you have nothing to support it.
If a sizable enough group exists for a specific, detailed feature set, bring them your data on it, because they evidently don't have the data that you do. I mean, seriously... a completely untapped and profitable market? Any dev would jump on that!
I totally agree with Loktofiet here. The target audience is just too small.
Now, if you really want to do something to attract a developer's attention, try this.
Identify an old-school game. Find one close to one you'd like someone to develop.
Play the game. Play it a lot. Dedicated players are good for a company.
Recruit lots of other people to play it. A couple hundred thousand people should do, but more is better.
Support the game you chose. Companies really like to make money. Lots of it!
Stay with the game. Prove to the developers you're here for the long run.
If you grow your market segment and show willingness to support an 'old-school' game, you are more likely to influence developers to build a competitive product, filled with up-to-date graphics, modern touches and other nice things. Basically, You are going to have to grow your market segment from insignificant to a major market segment. In any market, the demographics (number of players, available $) will attract companies to serve that segment.
But the math doesn't really ad up. You have a game like EQ peak at what 400-500k and held a steady base for a decade on subs. Many of the recent games may have surged a bit higher but dropped to levels likely lower than levels that same more 10 years old game about 3 months after release. Then its forced to go F2P. But EQ style game's market is smaller because its one old game vs. WoW and WoW clone population that are a large part of the genre. One to one outside of WoW the genre is not greatly out performing older games on subs while they're sub games.
yup the retention of all these new great mmo's is lower then that of the oldschool mmo's wich have been held up for a decade until they wowified the hell out of em.
yet people still say there isnt a market for such a type of game. While over 90% of the current mmo population have never even heard or set foot in one such game yet they all are dying to tryout new mmos.
I bet that the retention of such an oldschool game would be bigger then any of the new mmo's because for that 90% its new and refreshing and all the old schoolers would love it.
Well, only one old school MMO had comparable retention and that was EQ. 450k subs at it's absolute peak is decent, but nothing to write home about these days. And EQ was king of the hill (exluding lineage, but people generally don't consider eastern MMO's "old school"). Other games were sitting at 200k and such. These days a game goes F2P because it can't retain 1 million+ players, not because they've dipped down to 200k.
SWTOR, one of the worst games that ever existed still had like 1.4 million subs when it went F2P. In terms of cost vs result, SWTOR was a failure, but even as a failure it still had nearly triple that of the biggest old school MMO.
I think a lot of people delude themselves when talking about older MMO's as if they had these rock solid communities for a decade and had 500k subs. That's just not historically accurate. ONE game had almost 500k subs, one. The rest were half the size or less of that. So when you say player retention in today's market is worse, you have to define worse.
Worse in terms of percentage or worse in terms of raw numbers. You may be right if you look at percentage retention, but that number is irrelevant to game companies when the raw number of players doubles, triples or quadruples even the biggest old school MMO in terms of retention.
FFARR sold 1.5 million units. As of 9/30/2013 they had 600k subs. I don't know if that has gone up or down since then. That shows that even if retention is only 40%, they still have more subs than EQ did at it's peak.
In contrast, a game developer DID listen to the pleas of players who were clamoring for an old school favorite and Camelot Unchained was born on Kickstarter. It closed with $2.2 million in backing and just 14,873 backers. That should tell you something.
15k people is a lot of people to have posting on a forum. 15k people is not a lot of people when it comes to populating an MMO.
I agree with Mendel above. If you want to see more old school flavored MMO's, it is your responsibility to support them. If you don't and only find reasons to nitpick and complain, then there is no incentive for developers to listen to you.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Well, only one old school MMO had comparable retention and that was EQ. 450k subs at it's absolute peak is decent, but nothing to write home about these days. And EQ was king of the hill (exluding lineage, but people generally don't consider eastern MMO's "old school"). Other games were sitting at 200k and such. These days a game goes F2P because it can't retain 1 million+ players, not because they've dipped down to 200k.
SWTOR, one of the worst games that ever existed still had like 1.4 million subs when it went F2P. In terms of cost vs result, SWTOR was a failure, but even as a failure it still had nearly triple that of the biggest old school MMO.
I think a lot of people delude themselves when talking about older MMO's as if they had these rock solid communities for a decade and had 500k subs. That's just not historically accurate. ONE game had almost 500k subs, one. The rest were half the size or less of that. So when you say player retention in today's market is worse, you have to define worse.
Worse in terms of percentage or worse in terms of raw numbers. You may be right if you look at percentage retention, but that number is irrelevant to game companies when the raw number of players doubles, triples or quadruples even the biggest old school MMO in terms of retention.
FFARR sold 1.5 million units. As of 9/30/2013 they had 600k subs. I don't know if that has gone up or down since then. That shows that even if retention is only 40%, they still have more subs than EQ did at it's peak.
In contrast, a game developer DID listen to the pleas of players who were clamoring for an old school favorite and Camelot Unchained was born on Kickstarter. It closed with $2.2 million in backing and just 14,873 backers. That should tell you something.
15k people is a lot of people to have posting on a forum. 15k people is not a lot of people when it comes to populating an MMO.
I agree with Mendel above. If you want to see more old school flavored MMO's, it is your responsibility to support them. If you don't and only find reasons to nitpick and complain, then there is no incentive for developers to listen to you.
let me change your numbers around abit.
How many people where playing mmo's back then? in the west? shall we call it a million? i thinks thats pushing it even but lets say a million.
so out of that million 450k at its peak where playing thats 45% of the total playerbase.
Now lets take a new mmo rift or whatever? it has the same kind of player retention right? lets say 500k out of? 15million? more quite posibly. wich is 3.33% of the total playerbase
you cannot compare raw numbers back in the day with those of now. even if you take your 1.6mil before swtor went F2P its 10.6% out of the total population. i know my numbers are off here and there but you just cannot compare 450k back in the day with now. simply cant.
and about camelot unchained. i havnt played camelot back then it wasnt my game and alot of people dont do kickstarters by default because developers could change their vieuws in a heartbeat and/or people like me i find kickstarter to be a total sham paying now for a game wich wont release until 5 years... lets not...
Thats where your data is wrong though. EQ was not stable with that for a decade, only a few years.
And today's games on average do not have lower populations than older games on average. The top games of today have the same or higher populations than the top games of the past - and there are more of them. They just started with 10+ times the populations.
Some are forced to go f2p because the game cost 100x more to make. Some choose to go f2p to make even more money.
The old games people left for the new games. They left for a myriad of reasons, but the games changed because people left them for the new ones.
Number one reason why mmos go ftp is because theyve lost too many customers and can no longer justify a subscription so they go ftp to sustain a decent profit. (but, you knew this)
The older games did have its problems there wasnt a mass migration over to the "new model" games... devs just stopped making Old school games because everybody was trying to be the next WoW ... So, it was either play the next new shiny thing or keep playing the same old game.
Originally posted by Lienhart
No. You can't even do this with AAA games that aren't MMOs.
With the exception of indie games, almost all games now take millions of dollars to make. This is why AAA titles are all very intuitive but never innovative.
As a developer, you wouldn't be able to pay me enough to even work on an MMO. Realistically, your only chance is to buy a large amount of stocks (ie. ownership) to a company and attend their meetings and have your say. Even then, with all due respect, I'd pull my stocks out of any company stupid enough to create an old school MMO.
Anybody stupid enough to invest in anything thats only marginally sustainable for 3 months is a fool.
People on here always forget that WoW added to this community... 400k was really good pre-WoW because there were only 500k people playing mmos 10 years ago!!!! Comparing subs from a game pre-WoW to a game after WoW is foolish....
Find a way to demonstrate a larger market share than "50 old me-too grumblers that can be found frequenting this site".
Find a way to demonstrate possible acceptance for something other than games we've already had.
Genuinely new ideas.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
If people are going to use old games population as an example of good games, then you absolutely can compare numbers.
The exceptions you state apply to that argument as well.
Either you can use old population as a shining example and therefore have to look at today's games and recognize they have the same or higher populations. Or you can't use populations for the reasons you stated. You (not you but you in general) cannot have it both ways.
It is not reasonable to expect to have millions of customers long term, only 2-3 games have every sustained that.
It is not reasonable to expect a game to have 45% of the market when the market has 15 million people.
History has shown that the best MMO's will have 50-500k subscibers.
The devs and market are now starting to realize this, they are no longer planning on having 1 million plus subs. They know it is not sustainable.
Yes there are more people. There are far far far more games too.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Thats where your data is wrong though. EQ was not stable with that for a decade, only a few years.
And today's games on average do not have lower populations than older games on average. The top games of today have the same or higher populations than the top games of the past - and there are more of them. They just started with 10+ times the populations.
Some are forced to go f2p because the game cost 100x more to make. Some choose to go f2p to make even more money.
The old games people left for the new games. They left for a myriad of reasons, but the games changed because people left them for the new ones.
Number one reason why mmos go ftp is because theyve lost too many customers and can no longer justify a subscription so they go ftp to sustain a decent profit. (but, you knew this)
The older games did have its problems there wasnt a mass migration over to the "new model" games... devs just stopped making Old school games because everybody was trying to be the next WoW ... So, it was either play the next new shiny thing or keep playing the same old game.
Originally posted by Lienhart
No. You can't even do this with AAA games that aren't MMOs.
With the exception of indie games, almost all games now take millions of dollars to make. This is why AAA titles are all very intuitive but never innovative.
As a developer, you wouldn't be able to pay me enough to even work on an MMO. Realistically, your only chance is to buy a large amount of stocks (ie. ownership) to a company and attend their meetings and have your say. Even then, with all due respect, I'd pull my stocks out of any company stupid enough to create an old school MMO.
Anybody stupid enough to invest in anything thats only marginally sustainable for 3 months is a fool.
People on here always forget that WoW added to this community... 400k was really good pre-WoW because there were only 500k people playing mmos 10 years ago!!!! Comparing subs from a game pre-WoW to a game after WoW is foolish....
yes and no.
yes the number one reason games go f2p is because they cannot sustain the subs. No. that does not mean the subs they have were not profitable for them. Only that they believe they could make more money with f2p than with sub. Several games have gone f2p and had stable populations before the f2p switch.
There was a mass migration to the new model and it's always been that way.
UO lost a huge amount of subscribers to EQ. EQ, SWG (and all the others) lost a huge amount to WoW, EQ2 and the new games. The games then changed their gameplay to try and a. bring them back, or b. stop the flood.
400k is a good population now, and once again they are starting to realize that it is not realistic to plan to sustain the millions of subs on launch. Planning your budget around that will most certainly be disastrous.
edit - and the games have shown they are just as stable at athat 50-500k population as old games. Virtually every single one that has been out for years as held those numbers. I fully expect swtor to be in the same numbers a decade from now.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
What would be nice if we had a REAL way to appeal to a developer or to get one to Liston to a larger group. First thing everyone here would say is " hay, just e-mail them " ....Now come on you should know better.
- I'm sure many here would love to see an Old School mmo.
- I'm sure many would say not.
- I'm sure many would say the OPINIONS would be all over the place on how it should be made. We should not have to give our OPINIONS.....Let them take care of that.
Here is my take on this subject, and yes its only my OPINION :
Many here don't know any better, they think of Old School = Old game. Even if it starts out as a niche mmo, I would think it would turn out to be a huge success. None the less it would be re-original since its been so long and at the very least still be a money maker for developers.
I wish mmorpg.com could look at our cry. Do an over all assessment of topics and appeal to a developer. Because as a one we have no voice......And last, I totally believe the new saying " vote with your wallet " is bull crap. We are starving from one release to the next and we all play everyone good or bad !
As you've been told before, the problem isn't that no one hears you crying. The problem is that you have nothing to support it.
If a sizable enough group exists for a specific, detailed feature set, bring them your data on it, because they evidently don't have the data that you do. I mean, seriously... a completely untapped and profitable market? Any dev would jump on that!
As I said before your logic would be sound but we all know that the elephant in the room is World of Warcraft. You could likely come up with data that shows a sizeable group wants to play a UO style game or a EQ styled game. They still do not compare to the data by looking at the 12 million subscribers WoW brought in. I think by the design choices and the continued squeezing of that demographic despite not individually greatly out performing older games in their prime if not worst retention.
The sad/hilarious thing is... publishers are idiots. Complete and total idiots.
What publishers see, is that WoW has a lot of people playing. They think that by cloning WoW, it could work again. They don't understand what makes MMOs work long term, they don't understand why WoW took off in the first place.
And, as a result, almost every AAA WoW clone in the last 9 years has been a crushing and dismal failure.
It would be both safer, and probably more profitable, if they funded more niche MMOs, gave them smaller budgets, and groomed a stable of MMOs that all appeal to different players.
But, publishers are, what? Idiots. So instead, they keep going "Well... themeparks worked that one time, LET'S KEEP ON TRYING! I bet all those other clones failed because they weren't clone-y enough!"
Not to pick on your thread Tibermicuspa, but calling publishers idiots is probably the last thing to do if you want to see the kind of game being discussed. Love them or hate them publishers are a integral part of any games success.
I think game design and Old/School -ness of games works like a damped harmonic oscillator, where during the design/build/publish phases the game can oscillate between old and new. Lots of different factors like how much pressure there is to make $, or maximized player base, or player longevity and when these forces are applied will determine what kind of game will ship. The "developer" is made of of many groups like programmers, artists, designers (zone/level, lore, combat, crafting ...), QA, and producers. Each group might have differing ideas on what the game should be and usually what emerges is mass of systems/art/lore/code that needs to be massaged into a finished game. The influence of the different groups can also impact what type of game is finally shipped. If you work or have ever worked at a game company you will see that politics and niche groups in a company can and have reeked havoc on what gets shipped.
As others have mentioned, the best way to influence game developers is to play the kinds of games you like and hope others follow suit. The first gen games were replaced by the second and it looks like the current gen games are starting to slowly swing back towards some more of the older school ideologies. If a new game company were to build an old school game and it attracted enough players to threaten (maybe not dethrone WoW) you might start seeing a greater shift towards that line of thinking, but until it happens expect to see little increments of movement towards old school games.
You can also send a message, by NOT playing games that are "easymode" or "new school".
If people are going to use old games population as an example of good games, then you absolutely can compare numbers.
The exceptions you state apply to that argument as well.
Either you can use old population as a shining example and therefore have to look at today's games and recognize they have the same or higher populations. Or you can't use populations for the reasons you stated. You (not you but you in general) cannot have it both ways.
It is not reasonable to expect to have millions of customers long term, only 2-3 games have every sustained that.
It is not reasonable to expect a game to have 45% of the market when the market has 15 million people.
History has shown that the best MMO's will have 50-500k subscibers.
The devs and market are now starting to realize this, they are no longer planning on having 1 million plus subs. They know it is not sustainable.
Yes there are more people. There are far far far more games too.
There have only been 13 games to top the peak Everquest numbers accord to MMORPG data site. A lot of the main old school games aren't that far down either. Some of those 13 were flash in the pans off initial sales. Then there are way more people playing now then back then when even broadband wasn't always available. I know I started off playing on a modem.
A remake of a MMO that is completely 100% true to the old school tradition is impossible at this point. People who played during those days if they take off the rose colored glasses will remember those games did have many flaws. Those flaws would sink the game in the modern market. The grinds were often too long, multiple day mob camping was boring, much of the content tended to be monopolized by a few elite power gamer guilds. If you didn't play from day one it was hard to break into the established cliques. With few or no soloing options available these players were pretty much forced to quit. No new blood is what eventually killed old school MMOs. Lack of long term accessibility options eventually ate away at the veteran old school player base leaving only a few die hards supporting the game. This of course led to the perfect storm of WoW and the rise of solo friendly casual theme parks.
The problem is the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction. Now pretty much all we have are WoW clones with only a handful of exceptions. Going back to 100% old school is NOT an option. What we should be hoping for is a return of some of the old school features that people enjoyed. Larger open worlds with exploration, more group content, non-linear leveling. Look for games like Bless, Arch Age, Black Desert to lead the way into the future. New with but some old school feel is the way to go.
If people are going to use old games population as an example of good games, then you absolutely can compare numbers.
The exceptions you state apply to that argument as well.
Either you can use old population as a shining example and therefore have to look at today's games and recognize they have the same or higher populations. Or you can't use populations for the reasons you stated. You (not you but you in general) cannot have it both ways.
It is not reasonable to expect to have millions of customers long term, only 2-3 games have every sustained that.
It is not reasonable to expect a game to have 45% of the market when the market has 15 million people.
History has shown that the best MMO's will have 50-500k subscibers.
The devs and market are now starting to realize this, they are no longer planning on having 1 million plus subs. They know it is not sustainable.
Yes there are more people. There are far far far more games too.
There have only been 13 games to top the peak Everquest numbers accord to MMORPG data site. A lot of the main old school games aren't that far down either. Some of those 13 were flash in the pans off initial sales. Then there are way more people playing now then back then when even broadband wasn't always available. I know I started off playing on a modem.
That interesting but has nothing to do with what I stated.
My comments were about sustaining numbers and the stable populations for the top games have always been 50-500k. That hasn't changed - so planning a game to get more than that is IMO foolish planning.
edit - that is the problem modern games have run into. They planned on keeping a million, which is not reasonable, and planned their development budget around that.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by Icewhite Find a way to demonstrate a larger market share than "50 old me-too grumblers that can be found frequenting this site".Find a way to demonstrate possible acceptance for something other than games we've already had.Genuinely new ideas.
There really just needs to be enough interest to support the game being written. Perpetuum is running on less than 5,000 people, and I think Mortal Online is the same way, though Perpetuum runs a lot better than Mortal Online. It is certainly possible to write a game, even an MMORPG, for a small number of people, and do it in such a way that those people enjoy the game.
I think the problem with the views on this site is the idea that there is a group of people number in the tens or hundreds of thousands that is also so hidden that it doesn't register on any developer's radar is ludicrous. So is the idea that there are investors willing to invest the millions of dollars it would take to write a game for a target audience of tens or hundreds of thousands of people.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Comments
I'm surprised anyone tried to tackle that massive pile of fact twisting.
As you've been told before, the problem isn't that no one hears you crying. The problem is that you have nothing to support it.
If a sizable enough group exists for a specific, detailed feature set, bring them your data on it, because they evidently don't have the data that you do. I mean, seriously... a completely untapped and profitable market? Any dev would jump on that!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
lol at expecting people to play a game that is 15 years old and saying its dead because no one likes those types of games anymore. I am sure it has nothing to do with the graphics or only being so much you can patch an old game to have new stuff in it.
As you've been told before, the problem isn't that no one hears you crying. The problem is that you have nothing to support it.
If a sizable enough group exists for a specific, detailed feature set, bring them your data on it, because they evidently don't have the data that you do. I mean, seriously... a completely untapped and profitable market? Any dev would jump on that!
As I said before your logic would be sound but we all know that the elephant in the room is World of Warcraft. You could likely come up with data that shows a sizeable group wants to play a UO style game or a EQ styled game. They still do not compare to the data by looking at the 12 million subscribers WoW brought in. I think by the design choices and the continued squeezing of that demographic despite not individually greatly out performing older games in their prime if not worst retention.When the only companies making what you want are indies or kickstarters, 9 times out of ten you're going to have to settle for a downscale in bells and whistles. Be it overall graphics, animations, advanced graphical techniques, etc...
The really amusing thing is it's rare to see many of these oldschool types back any type of project, there's always something wrong with it. Regardless of the fact they're among the few trying to cater to those wants and desires. It's almost as if the only thing they get pleasure from is tearing things down.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The sad/hilarious thing is... publishers are idiots. Complete and total idiots.
What publishers see, is that WoW has a lot of people playing. They think that by cloning WoW, it could work again. They don't understand what makes MMOs work long term, they don't understand why WoW took off in the first place.
And, as a result, almost every AAA WoW clone in the last 9 years has been a crushing and dismal failure.
It would be both safer, and probably more profitable, if they funded more niche MMOs, gave them smaller budgets, and groomed a stable of MMOs that all appeal to different players.
But, publishers are, what? Idiots. So instead, they keep going "Well... themeparks worked that one time, LET'S KEEP ON TRYING! I bet all those other clones failed because they weren't clone-y enough!"
I totally agree with Loktofiet here. The target audience is just too small.
Now, if you really want to do something to attract a developer's attention, try this.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
As you've been told before, the problem isn't that no one hears you crying. The problem is that you have nothing to support it.
If a sizable enough group exists for a specific, detailed feature set, bring them your data on it, because they evidently don't have the data that you do. I mean, seriously... a completely untapped and profitable market? Any dev would jump on that!
I totally agree with Loktofiet here. The target audience is just too small.
Now, if you really want to do something to attract a developer's attention, try this.
But the math doesn't really ad up. You have a game like EQ peak at what 400-500k and held a steady base for a decade on subs. Many of the recent games may have surged a bit higher but dropped to levels likely lower than levels that same more 10 years old game about 3 months after release. Then its forced to go F2P. But EQ style game's market is smaller because its one old game vs. WoW and WoW clone population that are a large part of the genre. One to one outside of WoW the genre is not greatly out performing older games on subs while they're sub games.yup the retention of all these new great mmo's is lower then that of the oldschool mmo's wich have been held up for a decade until they wowified the hell out of em.
yet people still say there isnt a market for such a type of game. While over 90% of the current mmo population have never even heard or set foot in one such game yet they all are dying to tryout new mmos.
I bet that the retention of such an oldschool game would be bigger then any of the new mmo's because for that 90% its new and refreshing and all the old schoolers would love it.
Thats where your data is wrong though. EQ was not stable with that for a decade, only a few years.
And today's games on average do not have lower populations than older games on average. The top games of today have the same or higher populations than the top games of the past - and there are more of them. They just started with 10+ times the populations.
Some are forced to go f2p because the game cost 100x more to make. Some choose to go f2p to make even more money.
The old games people left for the new games. They left for a myriad of reasons, but the games changed because people left them for the new ones.
No. You can't even do this with AAA games that aren't MMOs.
With the exception of indie games, almost all games now take millions of dollars to make. This is why AAA titles are all very intuitive but never innovative.
As a developer, you wouldn't be able to pay me enough to even work on an MMO. Realistically, your only chance is to buy a large amount of stocks (ie. ownership) to a company and attend their meetings and have your say. Even then, with all due respect, I'd pull my stocks out of any company stupid enough to create an old school MMO.
^ this.
It's not very hard to find a population graph for the old games. They all show pretty clear the rise and fall of their subs and how long they held them. It wasn't stable at all.
People here call a game fail when it hits the same population levels that EQ had ( often times they have more ) then in the same "breath" say they have to remake an old school game if they want more people to play.
Well, only one old school MMO had comparable retention and that was EQ. 450k subs at it's absolute peak is decent, but nothing to write home about these days. And EQ was king of the hill (exluding lineage, but people generally don't consider eastern MMO's "old school"). Other games were sitting at 200k and such. These days a game goes F2P because it can't retain 1 million+ players, not because they've dipped down to 200k.
SWTOR, one of the worst games that ever existed still had like 1.4 million subs when it went F2P. In terms of cost vs result, SWTOR was a failure, but even as a failure it still had nearly triple that of the biggest old school MMO.
I think a lot of people delude themselves when talking about older MMO's as if they had these rock solid communities for a decade and had 500k subs. That's just not historically accurate. ONE game had almost 500k subs, one. The rest were half the size or less of that. So when you say player retention in today's market is worse, you have to define worse.
Worse in terms of percentage or worse in terms of raw numbers. You may be right if you look at percentage retention, but that number is irrelevant to game companies when the raw number of players doubles, triples or quadruples even the biggest old school MMO in terms of retention.
FFARR sold 1.5 million units. As of 9/30/2013 they had 600k subs. I don't know if that has gone up or down since then. That shows that even if retention is only 40%, they still have more subs than EQ did at it's peak.
In contrast, a game developer DID listen to the pleas of players who were clamoring for an old school favorite and Camelot Unchained was born on Kickstarter. It closed with $2.2 million in backing and just 14,873 backers. That should tell you something.
15k people is a lot of people to have posting on a forum. 15k people is not a lot of people when it comes to populating an MMO.
I agree with Mendel above. If you want to see more old school flavored MMO's, it is your responsibility to support them. If you don't and only find reasons to nitpick and complain, then there is no incentive for developers to listen to you.
money
lots and lots of money
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Yeah it helps to speak to them in a language they understand
let me change your numbers around abit.
How many people where playing mmo's back then? in the west? shall we call it a million? i thinks thats pushing it even but lets say a million.
so out of that million 450k at its peak where playing thats 45% of the total playerbase.
Now lets take a new mmo rift or whatever? it has the same kind of player retention right? lets say 500k out of? 15million? more quite posibly. wich is 3.33% of the total playerbase
you cannot compare raw numbers back in the day with those of now. even if you take your 1.6mil before swtor went F2P its 10.6% out of the total population. i know my numbers are off here and there but you just cannot compare 450k back in the day with now. simply cant.
and about camelot unchained. i havnt played camelot back then it wasnt my game and alot of people dont do kickstarters by default because developers could change their vieuws in a heartbeat and/or people like me i find kickstarter to be a total sham paying now for a game wich wont release until 5 years... lets not...
Number one reason why mmos go ftp is because theyve lost too many customers and can no longer justify a subscription so they go ftp to sustain a decent profit. (but, you knew this)
The older games did have its problems there wasnt a mass migration over to the "new model" games... devs just stopped making Old school games because everybody was trying to be the next WoW ... So, it was either play the next new shiny thing or keep playing the same old game.
Anybody stupid enough to invest in anything thats only marginally sustainable for 3 months is a fool.People on here always forget that WoW added to this community... 400k was really good pre-WoW because there were only 500k people playing mmos 10 years ago!!!! Comparing subs from a game pre-WoW to a game after WoW is foolish....
Find a way to demonstrate a larger market share than "50 old me-too grumblers that can be found frequenting this site".
Find a way to demonstrate possible acceptance for something other than games we've already had.
Genuinely new ideas.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
If people are going to use old games population as an example of good games, then you absolutely can compare numbers.
The exceptions you state apply to that argument as well.
Either you can use old population as a shining example and therefore have to look at today's games and recognize they have the same or higher populations. Or you can't use populations for the reasons you stated. You (not you but you in general) cannot have it both ways.
It is not reasonable to expect to have millions of customers long term, only 2-3 games have every sustained that.
It is not reasonable to expect a game to have 45% of the market when the market has 15 million people.
History has shown that the best MMO's will have 50-500k subscibers.
The devs and market are now starting to realize this, they are no longer planning on having 1 million plus subs. They know it is not sustainable.
Yes there are more people. There are far far far more games too.
yes and no.
yes the number one reason games go f2p is because they cannot sustain the subs. No. that does not mean the subs they have were not profitable for them. Only that they believe they could make more money with f2p than with sub. Several games have gone f2p and had stable populations before the f2p switch.
There was a mass migration to the new model and it's always been that way.
UO lost a huge amount of subscribers to EQ. EQ, SWG (and all the others) lost a huge amount to WoW, EQ2 and the new games. The games then changed their gameplay to try and a. bring them back, or b. stop the flood.
400k is a good population now, and once again they are starting to realize that it is not realistic to plan to sustain the millions of subs on launch. Planning your budget around that will most certainly be disastrous.
edit - and the games have shown they are just as stable at athat 50-500k population as old games. Virtually every single one that has been out for years as held those numbers. I fully expect swtor to be in the same numbers a decade from now.
Not to pick on your thread Tibermicuspa, but calling publishers idiots is probably the last thing to do if you want to see the kind of game being discussed. Love them or hate them publishers are a integral part of any games success.
I think game design and Old/School -ness of games works like a damped harmonic oscillator, where during the design/build/publish phases the game can oscillate between old and new. Lots of different factors like how much pressure there is to make $, or maximized player base, or player longevity and when these forces are applied will determine what kind of game will ship. The "developer" is made of of many groups like programmers, artists, designers (zone/level, lore, combat, crafting ...), QA, and producers. Each group might have differing ideas on what the game should be and usually what emerges is mass of systems/art/lore/code that needs to be massaged into a finished game. The influence of the different groups can also impact what type of game is finally shipped. If you work or have ever worked at a game company you will see that politics and niche groups in a company can and have reeked havoc on what gets shipped.
As others have mentioned, the best way to influence game developers is to play the kinds of games you like and hope others follow suit. The first gen games were replaced by the second and it looks like the current gen games are starting to slowly swing back towards some more of the older school ideologies. If a new game company were to build an old school game and it attracted enough players to threaten (maybe not dethrone WoW) you might start seeing a greater shift towards that line of thinking, but until it happens expect to see little increments of movement towards old school games.
You can also send a message, by NOT playing games that are "easymode" or "new school".
There have only been 13 games to top the peak Everquest numbers accord to MMORPG data site. A lot of the main old school games aren't that far down either. Some of those 13 were flash in the pans off initial sales. Then there are way more people playing now then back then when even broadband wasn't always available. I know I started off playing on a modem.
A remake of a MMO that is completely 100% true to the old school tradition is impossible at this point. People who played during those days if they take off the rose colored glasses will remember those games did have many flaws. Those flaws would sink the game in the modern market. The grinds were often too long, multiple day mob camping was boring, much of the content tended to be monopolized by a few elite power gamer guilds. If you didn't play from day one it was hard to break into the established cliques. With few or no soloing options available these players were pretty much forced to quit. No new blood is what eventually killed old school MMOs. Lack of long term accessibility options eventually ate away at the veteran old school player base leaving only a few die hards supporting the game. This of course led to the perfect storm of WoW and the rise of solo friendly casual theme parks.
The problem is the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction. Now pretty much all we have are WoW clones with only a handful of exceptions. Going back to 100% old school is NOT an option. What we should be hoping for is a return of some of the old school features that people enjoyed. Larger open worlds with exploration, more group content, non-linear leveling. Look for games like Bless, Arch Age, Black Desert to lead the way into the future. New with but some old school feel is the way to go.
That interesting but has nothing to do with what I stated.
My comments were about sustaining numbers and the stable populations for the top games have always been 50-500k. That hasn't changed - so planning a game to get more than that is IMO foolish planning.
edit - that is the problem modern games have run into. They planned on keeping a million, which is not reasonable, and planned their development budget around that.
There really just needs to be enough interest to support the game being written. Perpetuum is running on less than 5,000 people, and I think Mortal Online is the same way, though Perpetuum runs a lot better than Mortal Online. It is certainly possible to write a game, even an MMORPG, for a small number of people, and do it in such a way that those people enjoy the game.
I think the problem with the views on this site is the idea that there is a group of people number in the tens or hundreds of thousands that is also so hidden that it doesn't register on any developer's radar is ludicrous. So is the idea that there are investors willing to invest the millions of dollars it would take to write a game for a target audience of tens or hundreds of thousands of people.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.