Independent game companies maybe. But not a giant, corporate mainstream company like Sony. They can easily afford to make their game and then get their money back from launch or cash shop sales. The excuse that this helps them build their game does not work when it comes to a company like Sony who already has the resources to make their game.
Don't you think it's a little presumptuous making decisions about another's bank account? What does it matter? Either you want to test and play and are willing to pay or you're not. It's not like you're entitled to free access to their test environment. I don't get what the big deal is. If you think it's unfair then don't test for them?
That's exactly what I'm doing. And obviously it does matter to me, and it must matter to you to a degree since you're here posting. And I haven't really made a huge deal over it. Have I yelled or used big caps or anything along those lines? Is stating one's opinion that you don't agree with now mean that that person is "making a big deal" out of something?
I think it becomes "a big deal" when people start passing judgement. For example, who has enough money to provide free testing, or calling into question other's ethics for monetizing the test period.
The quality and motivation of testers is a very big deal to me. There has been a decline, in my opinion of course, in the overall quality of testers and their motivation for a while now. And while I would love to always get free testing (because we all love free), I'm pretty happy with paid testing if it improves the tester pool, or at the very least ensures a minimum contribution, even if it's just money, to the project.
I understand the perception of the money grab, and I was dubious when I first noticed this sort of testing direction, but the results I've seen are pretty good. I would add that not all testing is associated with fees. If you wanted to help test a game right now, Project Gorgon is in pre-alpha and they have been accepting accounts and feedback. Be warned though, it's pre-alpha and the game is rough. It's also oldschool and doesn't hold your hand, although the players are nice and will help and give you hints.
While it may improve the pool of testers what I've come to notice is that it creates a lazy sort of attitude within gaming companies. They don't update or sort out bugs and things that should be fixed as fast because they have already been paid so they don't have as much of an incentive to get games fixed and updated as efficiently as they would if beta and alpha were free.
I've noticed this with increasing alarm, especially with indie titles. I mean just look at Sony's newest game that had founder's packs and look at how it turned out. Dragon's Prophet is still littered with bugs and is practically empty of a playerbase.
Oh there is no question that I agree with you that the quality and seriousness of testers has declined. I'ts one reason I don't bother beta-ing games anymore. They became glorified demo's long ago. But that begs the question what came first the chicken or the egg? The developer has complete control over who it admits into testing. Who's fault is it really if they get locusts?
Once upon a time beta questionnaires read more like resume's, these days I think most just req an email, or apparently a credit card.
Some still do, some still charge, some just pick invites out of a hat. What's different?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Was watching a developer interview once where they were talking about a particular beta test. The dev mentioned it going from the 'testing beta' to the 'marketing beta'. I thought that was pretty telling. Now we're probably morphing to the 'cash beta' as well....
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
As opposed to everyone else who would also provide valid and constructive feedback from a consumer's perspective--but often disagree with your opinion?
I already wouldn't like his feedback. He's a "consumer". I'm a gamer.
Are we living in different dimensions? They're the same thing.
No, they are not.
I could write a long explanation as to why. But, instead, let me try this way by asking you this:
Does you consider MMORPGs are entertainment like going to the movies?
Or
Do you consider MMORPGs a hobby like building tiny sailboats inside glass bottles?
Think about the amount of dedication it takes to do both and reply.
Either way, you are still a consumer of a product. Would you like me to google consumer for you?
SWTOR Referral Bonus! Referral link 7 day subscriber level access Returning players get 1 free server transfer
Oh there is no question that I agree with you that the quality and seriousness of testers has declined. I'ts one reason I don't bother beta-ing games anymore. They became glorified demo's long ago. But that begs the question what came first the chicken or the egg? The developer has complete control over who it admits into testing. Who's fault is it really if they get locusts?
Once upon a time beta questionnaires read more like resume's, these days I think most just req an email, or apparently a credit card.
Some still do, some still charge, some just pick invites out of a hat. What's different?
Quality of testers
If you really have to ask, I'm sorry but it's not worth my time breaking it down. I'm sure someone else will be more than happy to write a wall of text on it.
Originally posted by BMBender Once upon a time beta questionnaires read more like resume's, these days I think most just req an email, or apparently a credit card.
And do you really think, honestly, that a such a "resume like" beta application on the anonymous Internet is worth anything?
Any 13 year old kid can fill it, give a wrong birth date, saying that he's a 35 year old veteran who beta tested dozens of games before, etc... and the gaming companies have no way to test if it's true or not.
You've never had people screaming in beta forums over those 15 years for changes to the game to what they want? I find that hard to believe and unrealistic.
People scream for all kinds of changes in both testing and live environments, doesn't mean that's the purpose behind beta testing.
The purpose is for marketing. That's it and my whole point.
My argument is about how beta is really the final product minus a few bug patches. Nothing more.
All of the real testing is done internally. ALL of it. Now, what they decide to call "the stage/phase" when they start selling access to promote.... I mean, test, that's their deal. They only still call it "beta" because it makes people feel special.
While it may improve the pool of testers what I've come to notice is that it creates a lazy sort of attitude within gaming companies. They don't update or sort out bugs and things that should be fixed as fast because they have already been paid so they don't have as much of an incentive to get games fixed and updated as efficiently as they would if beta and alpha were free.
I've noticed this with increasing alarm, especially with indie titles. I mean just look at Sony's newest game that had founder's packs and look at how it turned out. Dragon's Prophet is still littered with bugs and is practically empty of a playerbase.
I've Beta tested a lot of games, alpha'd almost as many. Not once have I pre-ordered a game or bought in for that access. SWG had a free closed beta and released littered with bugs, AOC free closed beta, littered with bugs, the stargate MMO alpha for free, so many issues the game never released. WAR free closed beta, more issues than most I've seen. My experience with testing these games begs me to ask what exactly you're going on about here?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
As opposed to everyone else who would also provide valid and constructive feedback from a consumer's perspective--but often disagree with your opinion?
I already wouldn't like his feedback. He's a "consumer". I'm a gamer.
Are we living in different dimensions? They're the same thing.
No, they are not.
I could write a long explanation as to why. But, instead, let me try this way by asking you this:
Does you consider MMORPGs are entertainment like going to the movies?
Or
Do you consider MMORPGs a hobby like building tiny sailboats inside glass bottles?
Think about the amount of dedication it takes to do both and reply.
Either way, you are still a consumer of a product. Would you like me to google consumer for you?
I've seen your posts you believe $ makes a good tester, yay for you.
Never said that. I only said that paying a bit removes some of the freeloaders and other parasites. It may not make a better tester on a personal level, but I believe it makes a better beta community overall.
Maybe it makes a better community (even though there is zero proof of that and I honestly doubt it), but it creates a lazy developer studio who don't feel as rushed to fix bugs or get their game out as fast as before because they've already been paid so they don't feel the pressure of needing to release the game as polished as possible.
Oh there is no question that I agree with you that the quality and seriousness of testers has declined. I'ts one reason I don't bother beta-ing games anymore. They became glorified demo's long ago. But that begs the question what came first the chicken or the egg? The developer has complete control over who it admits into testing. Who's fault is it really if they get locusts?
Once upon a time beta questionnaires read more like resume's, these days I think most just req an email, or apparently a credit card.
Some still do, some still charge, some just pick invites out of a hat. What's different?
Quality of testers
If you really have to ask, I'm sorry but it's not worth my time breaking it down. I'm sure someone else will be more than happy to write a wall of text on it.
How far back do we have to go to see this difference? It certainly hasn't changed much since 1999.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
While it may improve the pool of testers what I've come to notice is that it creates a lazy sort of attitude within gaming companies. They don't update or sort out bugs and things that should be fixed as fast because they have already been paid so they don't have as much of an incentive to get games fixed and updated as efficiently as they would if beta and alpha were free.
I've noticed this with increasing alarm, especially with indie titles. I mean just look at Sony's newest game that had founder's packs and look at how it turned out. Dragon's Prophet is still littered with bugs and is practically empty of a playerbase.
I've Beta tested a lot of games, alpha'd almost as many. Not once have I pre-ordered a game or bought in for that access. SWG had a free closed beta and released littered with bugs, AOC free closed beta, littered with bugs, the stargate MMO alpha for free, so many issues the game never released. WAR free closed beta, more issues than most I've seen. My experience with testing these games begs me to ask what exactly you're going on about here?
I actually paid $9 or so for SWG beta because they were sending a DVD to the testers.
Yeah, that was pre-phase 3 if I recall correctly.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by BMBender Once upon a time beta questionnaires read more like resume's, these days I think most just req an email, or apparently a credit card.
And do you really think, honestly, that a such a "resume like" beta application on the anonymous Internet is worth anything?
Any 13 year old kid can fill it, give a wrong birth date, saying that he's a 35 year old veteran who beta tested dozens of games before, etc... and the gaming companies have no way to test if it's true or not.
They used to req. references for one.
I've been beta testing MMORPGs for 17+ years (starting in UO early beta) and I've never seen anything implemented that is seriously checking if what the applicant said is true or not.
The only possible wait would be starting by requiring a scan of an ID (which could still be faked or stolen by the kid from his parents just for the scan).
Get real, man, there's no legal way to check that. Even less now that millions of people are playing those games.
[mod edit]. you only did public testing, closed or open.
I've seen your posts you believe $ makes a good tester, yay for you.
Never said that. I only said that paying a bit removes some of the freeloaders and other parasites. It may not make a better tester on a personal level, but I believe it makes a better beta community overall.
Maybe it makes a better community (even though there is zero proof of that and I honestly doubt it), but it creates a lazy developer studio who don't feel as as rushed to fix bugs or get their game out as fast as before because they've already been paid so they don't feel the pressure of needing to release the game as polished as possible.
You never answered my posts where I said you can still get in the beta the conventional way. Did you miss them or are you conveniently ignoring them?
What does that have to do with the post I just made at all? You're deflecting. Also it doesn't matter if you can still get into beta for free. Just by charging money for alpha access it shows the kind of business that Sony is running here. And it isn't one built to test the game...
Originally posted by BMBender Once upon a time beta questionnaires read more like resume's, these days I think most just req an email, or apparently a credit card.
And do you really think, honestly, that a such a "resume like" beta application on the anonymous Internet is worth anything?
Any 13 year old kid can fill it, give a wrong birth date, saying that he's a 35 year old veteran who beta tested dozens of games before, etc... and the gaming companies have no way to test if it's true or not.
They used to req. references for one.
I've been beta testing MMORPGs for 17+ years (starting in UO early beta) and I've never seen anything implemented that is seriously checking if what the applicant said is true or not.
The only possible wait would be starting by requiring a scan of an ID (which could still be faked or stolen by the kid from his parents just for the scan).
Get real, man, there's no legal way to check that. Even less now that millions of people are playing those games.
[mod edit] you only did public testing, closed or open.
What games are you talking about?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
All software releases with bugs ... it is the nature of software. Depending on how the company is set up, there are different severity of bugs (A-E, 1-5) and different user impact levels (severe, high, low). Most company would have policies in place that say no Sev. 1 and 2, or severe user impact bugs can be on a release candidate. Lower level bugs may get fixed or they may get waived depending on how much pressure there is to get the software out the door. But in the end all software is released with bugs (known and unknown). THe quality of the tester paid or unpaid is irrelevant.
That's what all the non-professional beta testers are. Unless QA is your job, you are a public tester.
And for your information, I was in the very early UO beta. Yet I still didn't have to provide an ID or a full resume of my "gaming career".
As I stated I stopped testing when they became demos (UO timeframe). And by references I meant systems, software tested with contact info of who you assisted.
That's what all the non-professional beta testers are. Unless QA is your job, you are a public tester.
And for your information, I was in the very early UO beta. Yet I still didn't have to provide an ID or a full resume of my "gaming career".
As I stated I stopped testing when they became demos (UO timeframe). And by references I meant systems, software tested with contact info of who you assisted.
If you think the UO beta was a demo, then I have my proof that you don't have a clue about what you're talking about
Any UO tester can confirm that.
And it wouldn't be hard to find a UO tester on this site. Everyone here tested all the way back to Meridan 59 and Pong.
As I stated I stopped testing when they became demos (UO timeframe). And by references I meant systems, software tested with contact info of who you assisted.
SO in the end you agree with my original assessment that this has been going on for almost the entirety of the MMORPG genre's existence? It's nothing new...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
As I stated I stopped testing when they became demos (UO timeframe). And by references I meant systems, software tested with contact info of who you assisted.
SO in the end you agree with my original assessment that this has been going on for almost the entirety of the MMORPG genre's existence? It's nothing new...
Duh! The only serious Online Gaming testers tested MUDs!
SWTOR Referral Bonus! Referral link 7 day subscriber level access Returning players get 1 free server transfer
That's what all the non-professional beta testers are. Unless QA is your job, you are a public tester.
And for your information, I was in the very early UO beta. Yet I still didn't have to provide an ID or a full resume of my "gaming career".
As I stated I stopped testing when they became demos (UO timeframe). And by references I meant systems, software tested with contact info of who you assisted.
If you think the UO beta was a demo, then I have my proof that you don't have a clue about what you're talking about
I've seen your posts you believe $ makes a good tester, yay for you.
Never said that. I only said that paying a bit removes some of the freeloaders and other parasites. It may not make a better tester on a personal level, but I believe it makes a better beta community overall.
Maybe it makes a better community (even though there is zero proof of that and I honestly doubt it), but it creates a lazy developer studio who don't feel as as rushed to fix bugs or get their game out as fast as before because they've already been paid so they don't feel the pressure of needing to release the game as polished as possible.
You never answered my posts where I said you can still get in the beta the conventional way. Did you miss them or are you conveniently ignoring them?
What does that have to do with the post I just made at all? You're deflecting. Also it doesn't matter if you can still get into beta for free. Just by charging money for alpha access it shows the kind of business that Sony is running here. And it isn't one built to test the game...
And when was the last beta that was built to "test the game" more than just the standard "stress test" allowed by mass influx of players on the servers?
And sorry, but the fact that you can still access the beta for free matters for this topic you started. You can pay $20 for the convenience of getting in 100%, or wait and hope to win the lottery like in any other game.
You quoted me and told me I never answered your question. I answered your question yet apparently you are free to pick and choose what you want to answer.
So I'll ask again. Let's say that hypothetically paying for alpha or beta access creates a better community. You're willing to exchange a better community for a lazy development studio. And don't tell me that isn't true. Look at all the indie games, look at Sony's last botched MMO "Dragon's Prophet." They charged for alpha access too. Their development cycle is slow, they don't seem to fix bugs, and Dragon's Prophet's playerbase is now non-existent.
So congratulations I guess. You can hypothetically start out with a decent community but once the game goes live it will still have the same bugs that it had in alpha and beta, and the playerbase will die out very fast. Look at FireFall. They had founder's packs too. Yet when the game was released it had minimal content and a large portion of the playerbase were ticked off because the game was subpar.
This is why it's my belief that paying for an MMO before it's even done being made or polished creates lazy development studios.
As I stated I stopped testing when they became demos (UO timeframe). And by references I meant systems, software tested with contact info of who you assisted.
SO in the end you agree with my original assessment that this has been going on for almost the entirety of the MMORPG genre's existence? It's nothing new...
Really surprised to read that many posters have paid before and are going to again to alpha / beta test a game ? One person for 17 years ? ( insert explicit swear word here ). Really really shocked. I'm also glad some posters will never and have never paid to tests a game , thank god.
So , what should be done is give a lottery type thing to get in and basically say that they require them to give a certain amaount of feedback over the testing period or they are out , no free loaders , only people actually testing the game/s. Job solved nd please think about what you are all doing for gods sake. Insanity at it's worst. Yes I have computer programmed quite a lot in my past.
The PC gaming world has gone mad or has been for a very long time. What did someone say , something along the lines of well it's going to F2P so I might as well put in $100 now , WTH is wrong with people. Really freaked out , glad I was a console MMO gamer for 11 years as this has really turned my stomach and even though we only had a few MMO's , it makes up for the stupidity of the few PC MMO testers.
/close rant
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing. "SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13 The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]
Comments
While it may improve the pool of testers what I've come to notice is that it creates a lazy sort of attitude within gaming companies. They don't update or sort out bugs and things that should be fixed as fast because they have already been paid so they don't have as much of an incentive to get games fixed and updated as efficiently as they would if beta and alpha were free.
I've noticed this with increasing alarm, especially with indie titles. I mean just look at Sony's newest game that had founder's packs and look at how it turned out. Dragon's Prophet is still littered with bugs and is practically empty of a playerbase.
Smile
Some still do, some still charge, some just pick invites out of a hat. What's different?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Either way, you are still a consumer of a product. Would you like me to google consumer for you?
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Referral link
7 day subscriber level access
Returning players get 1 free server transfer
Leveling assistance items given to new player!
See all perks Here
Quality of testers
If you really have to ask, I'm sorry but it's not worth my time breaking it down. I'm sure someone else will be more than happy to write a wall of text on it.
They used to req. references for one.
I've seen your posts you believe $ makes a good tester, yay for you.
The purpose is for marketing. That's it and my whole point.
My argument is about how beta is really the final product minus a few bug patches. Nothing more.
All of the real testing is done internally. ALL of it. Now, what they decide to call "the stage/phase" when they start selling access to promote.... I mean, test, that's their deal. They only still call it "beta" because it makes people feel special.
I've Beta tested a lot of games, alpha'd almost as many. Not once have I pre-ordered a game or bought in for that access. SWG had a free closed beta and released littered with bugs, AOC free closed beta, littered with bugs, the stargate MMO alpha for free, so many issues the game never released. WAR free closed beta, more issues than most I've seen. My experience with testing these games begs me to ask what exactly you're going on about here?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
No, I want you to pick an answer and stand by it.
Maybe it makes a better community (even though there is zero proof of that and I honestly doubt it), but it creates a lazy developer studio who don't feel as rushed to fix bugs or get their game out as fast as before because they've already been paid so they don't feel the pressure of needing to release the game as polished as possible.
Smile
How far back do we have to go to see this difference? It certainly hasn't changed much since 1999.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Yeah, that was pre-phase 3 if I recall correctly.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
[mod edit]. you only did public testing, closed or open.
What does that have to do with the post I just made at all? You're deflecting. Also it doesn't matter if you can still get into beta for free. Just by charging money for alpha access it shows the kind of business that Sony is running here. And it isn't one built to test the game...
Smile
What games are you talking about?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
As I stated I stopped testing when they became demos (UO timeframe). And by references I meant systems, software tested with contact info of who you assisted.
And it wouldn't be hard to find a UO tester on this site. Everyone here tested all the way back to Meridan 59 and Pong.
SO in the end you agree with my original assessment that this has been going on for almost the entirety of the MMORPG genre's existence? It's nothing new...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Duh! The only serious Online Gaming testers tested MUDs!
SWTOR Referral Bonus!
Referral link
7 day subscriber level access
Returning players get 1 free server transfer
Leveling assistance items given to new player!
See all perks Here
lol ok
You quoted me and told me I never answered your question. I answered your question yet apparently you are free to pick and choose what you want to answer.
So I'll ask again. Let's say that hypothetically paying for alpha or beta access creates a better community. You're willing to exchange a better community for a lazy development studio. And don't tell me that isn't true. Look at all the indie games, look at Sony's last botched MMO "Dragon's Prophet." They charged for alpha access too. Their development cycle is slow, they don't seem to fix bugs, and Dragon's Prophet's playerbase is now non-existent.
So congratulations I guess. You can hypothetically start out with a decent community but once the game goes live it will still have the same bugs that it had in alpha and beta, and the playerbase will die out very fast. Look at FireFall. They had founder's packs too. Yet when the game was released it had minimal content and a large portion of the playerbase were ticked off because the game was subpar.
This is why it's my belief that paying for an MMO before it's even done being made or polished creates lazy development studios.
Smile
I said I agreed with you
Really surprised to read that many posters have paid before and are going to again to alpha / beta test a game ? One person for 17 years ? ( insert explicit swear word here ). Really really shocked. I'm also glad some posters will never and have never paid to tests a game , thank god.
So , what should be done is give a lottery type thing to get in and basically say that they require them to give a certain amaount of feedback over the testing period or they are out , no free loaders , only people actually testing the game/s. Job solved nd please think about what you are all doing for gods sake. Insanity at it's worst. Yes I have computer programmed quite a lot in my past.
The PC gaming world has gone mad or has been for a very long time. What did someone say , something along the lines of well it's going to F2P so I might as well put in $100 now , WTH is wrong with people. Really freaked out , glad I was a console MMO gamer for 11 years as this has really turned my stomach and even though we only had a few MMO's , it makes up for the stupidity of the few PC MMO testers.
/close rant
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing.
"SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]