The dead giveaway that devs are actually outright lying is when they announce a definitive release date.How can you release a game before you know it is ready for launch?
I would assume this is usually because they sign a deal with a publisher,so you know the whole BETA and TESTING idea is bull.What baffles me are the devs that publish their own game and still announce a release date BEFORE testing is done and still release a bug ridden game.
Remember when Wow released that bug ridden glitched expansion,they shut down the forums to hide the truth,that is not right.That is why the computer games industry is so wrong ,the devs are fully protected by the law,the consumer is not.
There is actually a law that states no retailer can knowingly sell an unfit product.Well then how do they get away with selling a product that not everyone is allowed to test before purchasing?How can they announce release dates for their product before they know it is fit?
If you make a purchase in real life outside of gaming and there is anything wrong with the product you can get a refund or demand it is fixed.For some reason in gaming the law changes,you can ask for tings to be fixed all you want,they don't have to listen.Perhaps the law was moving in slowly but surely,perhaps that is why so many go free to play,you can't demand a refund or demand fixes if you paid nothing for the product.The cash shop would be void of the law unless you never actually got the rmt item.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
So I'll ask again. Let's say that hypothetically paying for alpha or beta access creates a better community. You're willing to exchange a better community for a lazy development studio. And don't tell me that isn't true. Look at all the indie games, look at Sony's last botched MMO "Dragon's Prophet." They charged for alpha access too. Their development cycle is slow, they don't seem to fix bugs, and Dragon's Prophet's playerbase is now non-existent.
Why does it even matter if it results in a better community during the beta? It brings in revenue and mostly only upsets people who wouldn't have paid anything, anyway. Any form of revenue will upset someone, and this is milder than most alternatives.
Well $5 was okay I guess , you have made me a little less shocked , not sure why you don't mind paying $20 now though , yes it isn't a hell of a lot of money ( to some ) , but the principle of it all is skewed mate , sorry but it is. The game might change completely by the live game , it might even not ever come out ( it's possible ). Also in EQNL case it's going to be a free to play game I believe. All the talk on these forums about EA nickel and dimming is nothing compared to this , nothing at all. Imagine johnny asking his parents to pay $100 to join this charade ? God heaven forbid. Yes I'm still a little shocked. Well looks like the people who are going to pay paid for all that lovely development of the non-released MMO The Agency after all , sorry but this is all very dumb.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
You miss the point. I will pay $20 for 100% access. I won't have to wait to be lucky.
And for $20, I will definitely at least get a couple of weeks entertainment. As I said, A movie seat nowadays already cost over $10, and the movie only lasts 2 hours... so it's no big deal.
The whole point is they shouldn't even be giving these $20 , $60 or $100 options in the first place , it's disgusting a total rip off and goes against what testing is actually about. I can tell you really wan't to get into the game pronto but like this paying them for an unfinished game ? To Sony of all people , a very rich company that will and has made millions. You like watching unfinished movies too ? I thought you said you would or was it might pay the $60 anyway , maybe I got that wrong though. Well it seems this might become the norm then if more and more companies feel they can get away with it , such a shame and a sham.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
This has been the norm for nearly 2 decades. Only the marketting of the packages has become more prevailent, due to the growing popularity of the industry.
Well I'm really glad that I didn't game on PC for 2 decades then apart from the odd MAME game or two. Again I'm so glad I played console MMO's for 11 years , as well the average PC MMO gamer seems to be totally gullible , even after spending a hell of a lot ( in some cases ) for their rigs. *huge bloody sigh*.Anyway at least now if anyone insults or mentions nickel and dimming when referring to SWTOR I will be all over them like a shot. God can you imagine if SOE did make a SWG2 omg lol , pay $200 for your own speeder bike model , pay $150 for your own pet Yoda , they can bloody get lost!
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing. "SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13 The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]
The dead giveaway that devs are actually outright lying is when they announce a definitive release date.How can you release a game before you know it is ready for launch?
I would assume this is usually because they sign a deal with a publisher,so you know the whole BETA and TESTING idea is bull.What baffles me are the devs that publish their own game and still announce a release date BEFORE testing is done and still release a bug ridden game.
Remember when Wow released that bug ridden glitched expansion,they shut down the forums to hide the truth,that is not right.That is why the computer games industry is so wrong ,the devs are fully protected by the law,the consumer is not.
There is actually a law that states no retailer can knowingly sell an unfit product.Well then how do they get away with selling a product that not everyone is allowed to test before purchasing?How can they announce release dates for their product before they know it is fit?
If you make a purchase in real life outside of gaming and there is anything wrong with the product you can get a refund or demand it is fixed.For some reason in gaming the law changes,you can ask for tings to be fixed all you want,they don't have to listen.Perhaps the law was moving in slowly but surely,perhaps that is why so many go free to play,you can't demand a refund or demand fixes if you paid nothing for the product.The cash shop would be void of the law unless you never actually got the rmt item.
Release Dates are estimates on when the Company expects the game to be ready ... they are always announced before the game is finished. It is usually why the dates get changed as game approaches those estimated dates. It is the way software has been done for ages.
The law about an unfit product does not always apply to MMOs because the game company is selling access to the game, and not the game itself. Customers have the right to complain if while during their billing cycle they are denied access to the game servers, for non-valid reasons. That is why this promo uses the word access to the alpha/beta to make clear that the $ only gives the user access and not the game itself.
The thing to remember with MMOs is that you are purchasing a service and not a product. If I am unhappy with my cable service I can either cancel and get a new company, or try and get my current company to improve their service, by asking for refunds, yelling at a customer service agent, ranting on online boards, etc. ...
Testing is not playing, and that is where most of the problems start.
You have been able to pay to beta test games for 10+ years now. This isn't new, it is just being presented in a different way.
I beta tested WoW and DAOC because of the guild I was in getting a mass invite. I have beta tested other games just because they randomly picked me. I've paid to get into betas. None of them are really better than others imo. The worst of the bunch is probably the random pick since those players don't even stick around half the time. If you pay to beta test something you tend to really explore it and not just give up if you don't like it instantly.
This times a thousand.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Lol, I'm prepared to bet that at least 80% of so-called "beta testers" never file a single bug report...
And even if they did, most of those would go unread, given that tens of thousands of "tester invites" are often sent out for the beta's.
Many "testers" are there to get an advantage for when the game launches, so that they know all the "tricks" ahead of everyone else. But the vast majority simply are there to play the game early and decide if they're going to buy the box or buy a "starter pack" if it's an F2P.
While they claim that you can be "alpha testing", you won't be. Alpha testing is by defination always done by a software testomg team at the developers location. What Sony calls "alpha testing" is simply beta testing, they just call it alpha testing because it will probably a very early and buggy product and they are afraid that the spoiled masses who expect a nearly finished beta product will damage their product.
Originally posted by Conley While they claim that you can be "alpha testing", you won't be. Alpha testing is by defination always done by a software testomg team at the developers location. What Sony calls "alpha testing" is simply beta testing, they just call it alpha testing because it will probably a very early and buggy product and they are afraid that the spoiled masses who expect a nearly finished beta product will damage their product.
Alpha and Beta are just development states of a software. It has nothing at all to do with who is accessing. It is usually in-house development only while in alpha, but who has access has nothing to do with the code state.
SWTOR Referral Bonus! Referral link 7 day subscriber level access Returning players get 1 free server transfer
With the latest announcement of EverQuest Next: Landmark selling founder's pack and including Alpha Access I am officially done alpha testing and beta testing MMOs. Both have become a way for the industry to suck money out of players desperate to be the first ones to try out a game and are no longer about finding bugs and actually testing the game to get it ready for a smooth launch for when it goes live.
It honestly sickens me that the industry has turned this way. Expect in the following years to see new ways for the industry to get more money out of MMO customers. I never saw beta tests turning into these things called "Founders Packs" so I can honestly say, I know for a fact more gimmicks and stuff that you'd never expect the MMO industry to expect you to pay for will be popping up in the future. Just wait and see.
Oh please, there has been only one single game with a real alpha/beta test since Asherons Call 1...yeah, you wont want to hear it but too bad. World of Warcraft.
Those were the last two MMOs where they had a large group of people that were actual dedicated TESTERS. you had to fill out a long application with the COMPANY, not a gaming website and you had to PROVE you knew how to actually alpha/beta 1 test
Knowing the difference between Static vs Dynamic testing. Willing to white box test. Destructive test. Use a debugger...testers that work hand to hand on a schedule with the developers which actually leads to better game design on top of it. Now its all done in house, by game developers with no actual input from real gamers until well into beta and by then its too late and they don't even listen anyway.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
You call them as you want but all I see is smart business move. Everquest is made to make money, like movie, like car, like amusement park .. SOE is not making EQ for you to enjoy free fun, but for making profit out of you. And believe me, there are thousands of players buying founders pack RIGHT NOW.
You are willing to pay and soe would be stupid not to accept the money.
You call them as you want but all I see is smart business move. Everquest is made to make money, like movie, like car, like amusement park .. SOE is not making EQ for you to enjoy free fun, but for making profit out of you. And believe me, there are thousands of players buying founders pack RIGHT NOW.
You are willing to pay and soe would be stupid not to accept the money.
Well played SOE
Yeah that is all very true , but really , all these gamers are that dumb ? really ? God such a sad day this is turning out to be. It's all very under handed and every time I think about it I get annoyed. Anyway maybe SOE will win the worst company of the year next time Meanwhile I am looking forward to my free expansion coming out soon on SWTOR , hear that Sony ? Free.
Poor EQ enthusiasts and PC MMO'ers , sad sad day guys and gals.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing. "SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13 The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]
The ultimate problem here for some people, is simply that they want early access, and they want it for free. It's that simple.
The thing is, the odds of more than a few people getting into Alpha for testing is slim to none. Most Alphas are completely closed. In fact, most of us don't get into game these days until the "Open Beta" (soft release). What you are paying for here, if you so desire, is *guaranteed* alpha/beta access, along with some cool perks.
Even if they weren't doing this, you likely wouldn't get into Alpha or Closed Beta, so this is neat way to pay to get early access. I personally think it's a great business model, and since people line up to pay for it, the game companies agree.
You can, of course, complain all you want about it, but in the end, money talks. You can wait for Open Beta or Release, and not pay a dime.
I just find it sort of rude and presumptuous of some posters to say that people only complain because they don't have the money. I have the money. I'm just not going to support a model I see as a greedy cash grab. Simple as that. I'm not telling others they shouldn't pay for alpha. It's their money, they are free to spend it as they see fit.
I just think it's foolish to pay to test a game that hasn't even been finished yet. It's not something I'd ever do.
I didn't say some people "don't have the money". Not having the money is one thing, not *wanting* to pay for Alpha access is something different. It's a matter of perceived value. I have about $300 in Star Citizen already, and that's a decision I made. You might think I am insane for that, you might not. You may believe paying for Alpha for EQ:L is worth it, you may not. But let's be honest. The only reason most people are complaining here is because they believe it should be "free". There's no basis in realty for them to have such an expectation, but they are having it anyway, because that's what they want.
Business is business. Welcome to capitalism.
By the way, the reason the F2P model exists is because there's a large group of people out there who want "free games". Luckily, a business model exists where some of us are willing to pay for premium items in order to support the game so the free players don't have to pay a dime. You asked for it, you got it. We had subs where everyone carried the load, now game companies have to be creative to keep their populations up while still being profitable as a business.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
You call them as you want but all I see is smart business move. Everquest is made to make money, like movie, like car, like amusement park .. SOE is not making EQ for you to enjoy free fun, but for making profit out of you. And believe me, there are thousands of players buying founders pack RIGHT NOW.
You are willing to pay and soe would be stupid not to accept the money.
Well played SOE
Yeah that is all very true , but really , all these gamers are that dumb ? really ? God such a sad day this is turning out to be. It's all very under handed and every time I think about it I get annoyed. Anyway maybe SOE will win the worst company of the year next time Meanwhile I am looking forward to my free expansion coming out soon on SWTOR , hear that Sony ? Free.
Poor EQ enthusiasts and PC MMO'ers , sad sad day guys and gals.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
Exactly how are people "dumb" for paying for something they see value in? Am I "dumb" if I pay for first class tickets on an airplane, or if I buy a nice gaming computer instead of a value computer? Am I dumb for buying a Porsche instead of a Honda? As I said, it's in your perception. If no one wanted what SOE is offering, no one would pay for it. They aren't somehow tricking us out of money we didn't want to spend in the first place.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
You call them as you want but all I see is smart business move. Everquest is made to make money, like movie, like car, like amusement park .. SOE is not making EQ for you to enjoy free fun, but for making profit out of you. And believe me, there are thousands of players buying founders pack RIGHT NOW.
You are willing to pay and soe would be stupid not to accept the money.
Well played SOE
Yeah that is all very true , but really , all these gamers are that dumb ? really ? God such a sad day this is turning out to be. It's all very under handed and every time I think about it I get annoyed. Anyway maybe SOE will win the worst company of the year next time Meanwhile I am looking forward to my free expansion coming out soon on SWTOR , hear that Sony ? Free.
Poor EQ enthusiasts and PC MMO'ers , sad sad day guys and gals.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
Exactly how are people "dumb" for paying for something they see value in? Am I "dumb" if I pay for first class tickets on an airplane, or if I buy a nice gaming computer instead of a value computer? Am I dumb for buying a Porsche instead of a Honda? As I said, it's in your perception. If no one wanted what SOE is offering, no one would pay for it. They aren't somehow tricking us out of money we didn't want to spend in the first place.
No they are very clever , because with the EQ IP then they knew a huge bunch of fans would throw money at them to test their game. It's all well and good wanting to spend money on EQ products but this is the unfinished product and this is all just outrageous and the fact that you yourself have just admitted you wanted to throw money at them proves it. It's a shame really. It's okay though you will have your alpha and beta test for $20 or more , I certainly won't be. No offense but testing an early version of a product isn't like any of the analogies you purposed aren't anywhere near this. Do you wan't an unfinished porsche or a fully built Honda ? Ill take the Honda. Flies off in my honda to PVP 12 v 12 in space :0.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing. "SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13 The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]
You call them as you want but all I see is smart business move. Everquest is made to make money, like movie, like car, like amusement park .. SOE is not making EQ for you to enjoy free fun, but for making profit out of you. And believe me, there are thousands of players buying founders pack RIGHT NOW.
You are willing to pay and soe would be stupid not to accept the money.
Well played SOE
Yeah that is all very true , but really , all these gamers are that dumb ? really ? God such a sad day this is turning out to be. It's all very under handed and every time I think about it I get annoyed. Anyway maybe SOE will win the worst company of the year next time Meanwhile I am looking forward to my free expansion coming out soon on SWTOR , hear that Sony ? Free.
Poor EQ enthusiasts and PC MMO'ers , sad sad day guys and gals.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
Exactly how are people "dumb" for paying for something they see value in? Am I "dumb" if I pay for first class tickets on an airplane, or if I buy a nice gaming computer instead of a value computer? Am I dumb for buying a Porsche instead of a Honda? As I said, it's in your perception. If no one wanted what SOE is offering, no one would pay for it. They aren't somehow tricking us out of money we didn't want to spend in the first place.
No they are very clever , because with the EQ IP then they knew a huge bunch of fans would throw money at them to test their game. It's all well and good wanting to spend money on EQ products but this is the unfinished product and this is all just outrageous and the fact that you yourself have just admitted you wanted to throw money at them proves it. It's a shame really. It's okay though you will have your alpha and beta test for $20 or more , I certainly won't be. No offense but testing an early version of a product isn't like any of the analogies you purposed aren't anywhere near this. Do you wan't an unfinished porsche or a fully built Honda ? Ill take the Honda. Flies off in my honda to PVP 12 v 12 in space :0.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
It's about perceived value. I see it in EQ:L's offer, and I'm paying it. You don't and you aren't. It's that simple. The whining is about entitlement. YOU decided that an unfinished game should given to you for free. YOU decided that this unfinished game has no value. Other than that, there is nothing that says this isn't a perfectly valid marketing strategy.
As I said in another post, the reason the F2P model exists is because some of us are willing to pay for premium items and access, so that the rest of the free players don't have to. Maybe it's because I run my own business that I see why this all makes sense. You and some others here don't seem to understand that game companies are businesses that need to be profitable.
It's a give and take. Lots of people can't or don't want to pay for subscription fees, now that model is largely gone and these companies have to get creative with how they make money. Why is this such a hard concept for some to understand?
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
You call them as you want but all I see is smart business move. Everquest is made to make money, like movie, like car, like amusement park .. SOE is not making EQ for you to enjoy free fun, but for making profit out of you. And believe me, there are thousands of players buying founders pack RIGHT NOW.
You are willing to pay and soe would be stupid not to accept the money.
Well played SOE
Yeah that is all very true , but really , all these gamers are that dumb ? really ? God such a sad day this is turning out to be. It's all very under handed and every time I think about it I get annoyed. Anyway maybe SOE will win the worst company of the year next time Meanwhile I am looking forward to my free expansion coming out soon on SWTOR , hear that Sony ? Free.
Poor EQ enthusiasts and PC MMO'ers , sad sad day guys and gals.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
Exactly how are people "dumb" for paying for something they see value in? Am I "dumb" if I pay for first class tickets on an airplane, or if I buy a nice gaming computer instead of a value computer? Am I dumb for buying a Porsche instead of a Honda? As I said, it's in your perception. If no one wanted what SOE is offering, no one would pay for it. They aren't somehow tricking us out of money we didn't want to spend in the first place.
No they are very clever , because with the EQ IP then they knew a huge bunch of fans would throw money at them to test their game. It's all well and good wanting to spend money on EQ products but this is the unfinished product and this is all just outrageous and the fact that you yourself have just admitted you wanted to throw money at them proves it. It's a shame really. It's okay though you will have your alpha and beta test for $20 or more , I certainly won't be. No offense but testing an early version of a product isn't like any of the analogies you purposed aren't anywhere near this. Do you wan't an unfinished porsche or a fully built Honda ? Ill take the Honda. Flies off in my honda to PVP 12 v 12 in space :0.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
It's about perceived value. I see it in EQ:L's offer, and I'm paying it. You don't and you aren't. It's that simple. The whining is about entitlement. YOU decided that an unfinished game should given to you for free. YOU decided that this unfinished game has no value. Other than that, there is nothing that says this isn't a perfectly valid marketing strategy.
As I said in another post, the reason the F2P model exists is because some of us are willing to pay for premium items and access, so that the rest of the free players don't have to. Maybe it's because I run my own business that I see why this all makes sense. You and some others here don't seem to understand that game companies are businesses that need to be profitable.
It's a give and take. Lots of people can't or don't want to pay for subscription fees, now that model is largely gone and these companies have to get creative with how they make money. Why is this such a hard concept for some to understand?
I don't feel entitled at all , yeah you have given them money I am not. I never said give it for free ever , they could charge for a nice boxed version and it be F2P or any other way but the finished product. The code and alpha has value too , I never said that. It's a very clever marketing strategy it will work , there are thousands of of EQ fans and thousands of sanbox/ MMO gamers out there , well actually it hasn't really got that much to do with marketing as it is an unfinished product and they are charging to get into it or go into a pool. Do you remember those competitions in between tv shows , where the answer out of 3 would be very obvious , but it would cost premium rate to call , that got banned ? It's like that in a way.
I have had my own business too , I do understand this new hybrid model too , it's very underhanded and prays on people who wan't said product early. Also please note the game isn't even out yet so all your talk of free players don't have to is irrelevant at this point , we don't know what restrictions need to be lifted etc yet. Of course they need to make a profit , but again it isn't even out yet. Yeah I have studied economics too.
No model is in place yet , it isn't out yet. This head start , alpha / beta testing thing is nothing but greed by an obviously greedy company , understand ?
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing. "SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13 The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]
With the latest announcement of EverQuest Next: Landmark selling founder's pack and including Alpha Access I am officially done alpha testing and beta testing MMOs. Both have become a way for the industry to suck money out of players desperate to be the first ones to try out a game and are no longer about finding bugs and actually testing the game to get it ready for a smooth launch for when it goes live.
It honestly sickens me that the industry has turned this way. Expect in the following years to see new ways for the industry to get more money out of MMO customers. I never saw beta tests turning into these things called "Founders Packs" so I can honestly say, I know for a fact more gimmicks and stuff that you'd never expect the MMO industry to expect you to pay for will be popping up in the future. Just wait and see.
I so agree!
This money greed just makes me sick. I am willing to pay for a finished product. Often I even saved my meager money for a cool box with a cloth map or what. But this?
In the past beta testing was a sort of friendship agreement: we tested without being paid and in return we were allowed to see the game before anyone else.
Now we are supposed to pay even for Alpha? Hello? And 100 bucks and you can be NOBLE and have UBER Gear, while the others wear sackcloth? No thanks. Yes, sickening is the right word. It SICKENS me too. MMos have become a farce with all the shops and paid gimmicks and how people can pay their power and looks with Dollars in games now.
It's sad and sickening indeed!
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
This money greed just makes me sick. I am willing to pay for a finished product. Often I even saved my meager money for a cool box with a cloth map or what. But this?
In the past beta testing was a sort of friendship agreement: we tested without being paid and in return we were allowed to see the game before anyone else.
Now we are supposed to pay even for Alpha?
They wouldn't charge it if people weren't willing to pay it. Evidently it's worth that to a lot of people. Don't blame the company for being willing to picking up the money that people want to throw at their feet.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This money greed just makes me sick. I am willing to pay for a finished product. Often I even saved my meager money for a cool box with a cloth map or what. But this?
In the past beta testing was a sort of friendship agreement: we tested without being paid and in return we were allowed to see the game before anyone else.
Now we are supposed to pay even for Alpha?
They wouldn't charge it if people weren't willing to pay it. Evidently it's worth that to a lot of people. Don't blame the company for being willing to picking up the money that people want to throw at their feet.
So everything you can coerce people to do is ok?
Weird morality if you ask me.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
This money greed just makes me sick. I am willing to pay for a finished product. Often I even saved my meager money for a cool box with a cloth map or what. But this?
In the past beta testing was a sort of friendship agreement: we tested without being paid and in return we were allowed to see the game before anyone else.
Now we are supposed to pay even for Alpha?
They wouldn't charge it if people weren't willing to pay it. Evidently it's worth that to a lot of people. Don't blame the company for being willing to picking up the money that people want to throw at their feet.
So everything you can coerce people to do is ok?
Weird morality if you ask me.
My faith in the MMO industry is now shattered , yeah I am annoyed and will be for a few days. Sad times... thank god a hybrid game came out at this tipping point ( SWTOR ) , i actually hope Final Fantasy with it's subs is doing great. Changing industry.
For the better ?
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing. "SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13 The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]
Originally posted by Razeekster With the latest announcement of EverQuest Next: Landmark selling founder's pack and including Alpha Access I am officially done alpha testing and beta testing MMOs. Both have become a way for the industry to suck money out of players desperate to be the first ones to try out a game and are no longer about finding bugs and actually testing the game to get it ready for a smooth launch for when it goes live. It honestly sickens me that the industry has turned this way. Expect in the following years to see new ways for the industry to get more money out of MMO customers. I never saw beta tests turning into these things called "Founders Packs" so I can honestly say, I know for a fact more gimmicks and stuff that you'd never expect the MMO industry to expect you to pay for will be popping up in the future. Just wait and see.
I so agree!
This money greed just makes me sick. I am willing to pay for a finished product. Often I even saved my meager money for a cool box with a cloth map or what. But this?
In the past beta testing was a sort of friendship agreement: we tested without being paid and in return we were allowed to see the game before anyone else.
Now we are supposed to pay even for Alpha? Hello? And 100 bucks and you can be NOBLE and have UBER Gear, while the others wear sackcloth? No thanks. Yes, sickening is the right word. It SICKENS me too. MMos have become a farce with all the shops and paid gimmicks and how people can pay their power and looks with Dollars in games now.
It's sad and sickening indeed!
You don't get uber gear, you get some stuff that is most likely easily made in the game, it even says the advantage is you don't have to craft your own personal vault. You aren't noble in the game, you get a skin for free. I mean you are blowing this so far out of proportion that it is hard to take you seriously.
You have been able to pay to beta test games for 10+ years now. This isn't new, it is just being presented in a different way.I beta tested WoW and DAOC because of the guild I was in getting a mass invite. I have beta tested other games just because they randomly picked me. I've paid to get into betas. None of them are really better than others imo. The worst of the bunch is probably the random pick since those players don't even stick around half the time. If you pay to beta test something you tend to really explore it and not just give up if you don't like it instantly.
Far too many players treat it as early access or demo time. Few players now actually log bug reports and fewer still make meaningful contributions by filling in bug reports properly. The downside of which is a poorer game at launch, hell look at NW loads of pay to beta players found a massive exploit during beta, didn't report it then exploited it at release. That is an indictment on pay to beta as a model.
So far this year I beta tested 3 games by invitation ( no payment) 2 of them later brought in pay 2. The sad thing is the bug reports forum gained no additional benefit from the addition of pay to beta players. Instead you had a plethora of people complaining about the regular wipes and wanting to keep all their progress at launch.
You don't get uber gear, you get some stuff that is most likely easily made in the game, it even says the advantage is you don't have to craft your own personal vault. You aren't noble in the game, you get a skin for free. I mean you are blowing this so far out of proportion that it is hard to take you seriously.
Originally posted by NorseGod Originally posted by Ender4Originally posted by Elikal
You don't get uber gear, you get some stuff that is most likely easily made in the game, it even says the advantage is you don't have to craft your own personal vault. You aren't noble in the game, you get a skin for free. I mean you are blowing this so far out of proportion that it is hard to take you seriously.Go on...
Actually I just watched the video. The biggest item you get in the package he said could take weeks to be able to make in game. Other than the fluff items that are there to show off you spent your money you aren't getting anything that is more than an early game time saver. It just isn't a big deal.
Comments
The dead giveaway that devs are actually outright lying is when they announce a definitive release date.How can you release a game before you know it is ready for launch?
I would assume this is usually because they sign a deal with a publisher,so you know the whole BETA and TESTING idea is bull.What baffles me are the devs that publish their own game and still announce a release date BEFORE testing is done and still release a bug ridden game.
Remember when Wow released that bug ridden glitched expansion,they shut down the forums to hide the truth,that is not right.That is why the computer games industry is so wrong ,the devs are fully protected by the law,the consumer is not.
There is actually a law that states no retailer can knowingly sell an unfit product.Well then how do they get away with selling a product that not everyone is allowed to test before purchasing?How can they announce release dates for their product before they know it is fit?
If you make a purchase in real life outside of gaming and there is anything wrong with the product you can get a refund or demand it is fixed.For some reason in gaming the law changes,you can ask for tings to be fixed all you want,they don't have to listen.Perhaps the law was moving in slowly but surely,perhaps that is why so many go free to play,you can't demand a refund or demand fixes if you paid nothing for the product.The cash shop would be void of the law unless you never actually got the rmt item.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Why does it even matter if it results in a better community during the beta? It brings in revenue and mostly only upsets people who wouldn't have paid anything, anyway. Any form of revenue will upset someone, and this is milder than most alternatives.
Well I'm really glad that I didn't game on PC for 2 decades then apart from the odd MAME game or two. Again I'm so glad I played console MMO's for 11 years , as well the average PC MMO gamer seems to be totally gullible , even after spending a hell of a lot ( in some cases ) for their rigs. *huge bloody sigh*.Anyway at least now if anyone insults or mentions nickel and dimming when referring to SWTOR I will be all over them like a shot. God can you imagine if SOE did make a SWG2 omg lol , pay $200 for your own speeder bike model , pay $150 for your own pet Yoda , they can bloody get lost!
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing.
"SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]
Release Dates are estimates on when the Company expects the game to be ready ... they are always announced before the game is finished. It is usually why the dates get changed as game approaches those estimated dates. It is the way software has been done for ages.
The law about an unfit product does not always apply to MMOs because the game company is selling access to the game, and not the game itself. Customers have the right to complain if while during their billing cycle they are denied access to the game servers, for non-valid reasons. That is why this promo uses the word access to the alpha/beta to make clear that the $ only gives the user access and not the game itself.
The thing to remember with MMOs is that you are purchasing a service and not a product. If I am unhappy with my cable service I can either cancel and get a new company, or try and get my current company to improve their service, by asking for refunds, yelling at a customer service agent, ranting on online boards, etc. ...
Testing is not playing, and that is where most of the problems start.
This times a thousand.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Lol, I'm prepared to bet that at least 80% of so-called "beta testers" never file a single bug report...
And even if they did, most of those would go unread, given that tens of thousands of "tester invites" are often sent out for the beta's.
Many "testers" are there to get an advantage for when the game launches, so that they know all the "tricks" ahead of everyone else. But the vast majority simply are there to play the game early and decide if they're going to buy the box or buy a "starter pack" if it's an F2P.
Alpha and Beta are just development states of a software. It has nothing at all to do with who is accessing. It is usually in-house development only while in alpha, but who has access has nothing to do with the code state.
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Oh please, there has been only one single game with a real alpha/beta test since Asherons Call 1...yeah, you wont want to hear it but too bad. World of Warcraft.
Those were the last two MMOs where they had a large group of people that were actual dedicated TESTERS. you had to fill out a long application with the COMPANY, not a gaming website and you had to PROVE you knew how to actually alpha/beta 1 test
Knowing the difference between Static vs Dynamic testing. Willing to white box test. Destructive test. Use a debugger...testers that work hand to hand on a schedule with the developers which actually leads to better game design on top of it. Now its all done in house, by game developers with no actual input from real gamers until well into beta and by then its too late and they don't even listen anyway.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
You call them as you want but all I see is smart business move. Everquest is made to make money, like movie, like car, like amusement park .. SOE is not making EQ for you to enjoy free fun, but for making profit out of you. And believe me, there are thousands of players buying founders pack RIGHT NOW.
You are willing to pay and soe would be stupid not to accept the money.
Well played SOE
Yeah that is all very true , but really , all these gamers are that dumb ? really ? God such a sad day this is turning out to be. It's all very under handed and every time I think about it I get annoyed. Anyway maybe SOE will win the worst company of the year next time
Meanwhile I am looking forward to my free expansion coming out soon on SWTOR , hear that Sony ? Free.
Poor EQ enthusiasts and PC MMO'ers , sad sad day guys and gals.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing.
"SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]
I didn't say some people "don't have the money". Not having the money is one thing, not *wanting* to pay for Alpha access is something different. It's a matter of perceived value. I have about $300 in Star Citizen already, and that's a decision I made. You might think I am insane for that, you might not. You may believe paying for Alpha for EQ:L is worth it, you may not. But let's be honest. The only reason most people are complaining here is because they believe it should be "free". There's no basis in realty for them to have such an expectation, but they are having it anyway, because that's what they want.
Business is business. Welcome to capitalism.
By the way, the reason the F2P model exists is because there's a large group of people out there who want "free games". Luckily, a business model exists where some of us are willing to pay for premium items in order to support the game so the free players don't have to pay a dime. You asked for it, you got it. We had subs where everyone carried the load, now game companies have to be creative to keep their populations up while still being profitable as a business.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Exactly how are people "dumb" for paying for something they see value in? Am I "dumb" if I pay for first class tickets on an airplane, or if I buy a nice gaming computer instead of a value computer? Am I dumb for buying a Porsche instead of a Honda? As I said, it's in your perception. If no one wanted what SOE is offering, no one would pay for it. They aren't somehow tricking us out of money we didn't want to spend in the first place.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
No they are very clever , because with the EQ IP then they knew a huge bunch of fans would throw money at them to test their game. It's all well and good wanting to spend money on EQ products but this is the unfinished product and this is all just outrageous and the fact that you yourself have just admitted you wanted to throw money at them proves it. It's a shame really. It's okay though you will have your alpha and beta test for $20 or more , I certainly won't be. No offense but testing an early version of a product isn't like any of the analogies you purposed aren't anywhere near this. Do you wan't an unfinished porsche or a fully built Honda ? Ill take the Honda. Flies off in my honda to PVP 12 v 12 in space :0.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing.
"SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]
It's about perceived value. I see it in EQ:L's offer, and I'm paying it. You don't and you aren't. It's that simple. The whining is about entitlement. YOU decided that an unfinished game should given to you for free. YOU decided that this unfinished game has no value. Other than that, there is nothing that says this isn't a perfectly valid marketing strategy.
As I said in another post, the reason the F2P model exists is because some of us are willing to pay for premium items and access, so that the rest of the free players don't have to. Maybe it's because I run my own business that I see why this all makes sense. You and some others here don't seem to understand that game companies are businesses that need to be profitable.
It's a give and take. Lots of people can't or don't want to pay for subscription fees, now that model is largely gone and these companies have to get creative with how they make money. Why is this such a hard concept for some to understand?
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I don't feel entitled at all , yeah you have given them money I am not. I never said give it for free ever , they could charge for a nice boxed version and it be F2P or any other way but the finished product. The code and alpha has value too , I never said that. It's a very clever marketing strategy it will work , there are thousands of of EQ fans and thousands of sanbox/ MMO gamers out there , well actually it hasn't really got that much to do with marketing as it is an unfinished product and they are charging to get into it or go into a pool. Do you remember those competitions in between tv shows , where the answer out of 3 would be very obvious , but it would cost premium rate to call , that got banned ? It's like that in a way.
I have had my own business too , I do understand this new hybrid model too , it's very underhanded and prays on people who wan't said product early. Also please note the game isn't even out yet so all your talk of free players don't have to is irrelevant at this point , we don't know what restrictions need to be lifted etc yet. Of course they need to make a profit , but again it isn't even out yet. Yeah I have studied economics too.
No model is in place yet , it isn't out yet. This head start , alpha / beta testing thing is nothing but greed by an obviously greedy company , understand ?
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing.
"SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]
I so agree!
This money greed just makes me sick. I am willing to pay for a finished product. Often I even saved my meager money for a cool box with a cloth map or what. But this?
In the past beta testing was a sort of friendship agreement: we tested without being paid and in return we were allowed to see the game before anyone else.
Now we are supposed to pay even for Alpha? Hello? And 100 bucks and you can be NOBLE and have UBER Gear, while the others wear sackcloth? No thanks. Yes, sickening is the right word. It SICKENS me too. MMos have become a farce with all the shops and paid gimmicks and how people can pay their power and looks with Dollars in games now.
It's sad and sickening indeed!
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
They wouldn't charge it if people weren't willing to pay it. Evidently it's worth that to a lot of people. Don't blame the company for being willing to picking up the money that people want to throw at their feet.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
So everything you can coerce people to do is ok?
Weird morality if you ask me.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
My faith in the MMO industry is now shattered , yeah I am annoyed and will be for a few days. Sad times... thank god a hybrid game came out at this tipping point ( SWTOR ) , i actually hope Final Fantasy with it's subs is doing great. Changing industry.
For the better ?
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing.
"SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]
You don't get uber gear, you get some stuff that is most likely easily made in the game, it even says the advantage is you don't have to craft your own personal vault. You aren't noble in the game, you get a skin for free. I mean you are blowing this so far out of proportion that it is hard to take you seriously.
Far too many players treat it as early access or demo time. Few players now actually log bug reports and fewer still make meaningful contributions by filling in bug reports properly. The downside of which is a poorer game at launch, hell look at NW loads of pay to beta players found a massive exploit during beta, didn't report it then exploited it at release. That is an indictment on pay to beta as a model.So far this year I beta tested 3 games by invitation ( no payment) 2 of them later brought in pay 2. The sad thing is the bug reports forum gained no additional benefit from the addition of pay to beta players. Instead you had a plethora of people complaining about the regular wipes and wanting to keep all their progress at launch.
New model it may be, but it does not work.
Go on...
You don't get uber gear, you get some stuff that is most likely easily made in the game, it even says the advantage is you don't have to craft your own personal vault. You aren't noble in the game, you get a skin for free. I mean you are blowing this so far out of proportion that it is hard to take you seriously.
Go on...
Actually I just watched the video. The biggest item you get in the package he said could take weeks to be able to make in game. Other than the fluff items that are there to show off you spent your money you aren't getting anything that is more than an early game time saver. It just isn't a big deal.