You've never had people screaming in beta forums over those 15 years for changes to the game to what they want? I find that hard to believe and unrealistic.
People scream for all kinds of changes in both testing and live environments, doesn't mean that's the purpose behind beta testing.
The purpose is for marketing. That's it and my whole point.
My argument is about how beta is really the final product minus a few bug patches. Nothing more.
All of the real testing is done internally. ALL of it. Now, what they decide to call "the stage/phase" when they start selling access to promote.... I mean, test, that's their deal. They only still call it "beta" because it makes people feel special.
The fact that you see a beta test as "marketing" cements the fact that you are one of the folks who plays betas for a free trial. Which is not the reason they exist. All testing is not done internally. Hence the term.. BETA TEST - You can't possibly see all of the bugs internally without having a lot of people log into the game from their home and find bugs that you didn't realize were there. It's called a beta because the product is not released yet. It hasn't went "gold" yet.. or the final version. You're just wrong. Flat out incorrect.
As I stated I stopped testing when they became demos (UO timeframe). And by references I meant systems, software tested with contact info of who you assisted.
SO in the end you agree with my original assessment that this has been going on for almost the entirety of the MMORPG genre's existence? It's nothing new...
I said I agreed with you
Must have missed it, this thread has been moving fast, so my apologies.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If you mean me, I didn't pay for UO beta, I got in for 100% free.
The only beta I paid for was SWG - and that was only because they were sending a DVD to you.
And yeah, I will most likely pay for the convenience of having a 100% chance of getting into the beta of EQNL. I could also just not pay and wait to win the beta lottery, but since I'm really interested in that innovative concept of a game, I don't mind forking out $20 which is pocket change for me.
So, just going to ignore my question even though you accused me of ignoring yours and I actually answered yours? Sort of hypocritical but alright.
Actually, the early MMORPG betas were real betas, with some very harsh bugs and even huge playability problems, and player feedback was important and valued (even without ID and retina scans ). UO, AC1, EQ, DAoC... and I will even include WoW, early beta was a very rough ride there too, but the concept of "open beta" which is akin to "demo beta" was already introduced then.
You also had stupid companies like Funcom for Anarchy Online back then who did NOT listen their beta testers screaming the game was not ready for release... and we all know how it ended. What's funny is that Funcom still hasn't learned.
I was referring to the pay to test issue this thread was focused on. Testing phases have changed, most recently FFXIV is a good example, I don't recall many old games just having weekend trials as "Closed Betas" I think that's a different subject all together though.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Let me burst your bubble here, and I'm probably not the first one to do it. There are no public beta test. They are in fact marketing events, to build word of mouth for release. QA test is a business, that is not left to amateurs. But marketing to Alpha Users(AU) is the trend.
Alpha Users are trend setters and have mass followings. AUs will buy "alpha and beta test" access at a premium, and not complain about it. Whatever their gaming experience was like they will hype the game, and their followers will follow. When a game asks you to follow them on social media, they are assessing you AU status (think Gear Score). The higher the status the more likely you get and invite. People who can't afford to buy access, probably can't afford to buy the game. Poor people are rarely Alpha Users.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
The fact that you see a beta test as "marketing" cements the fact that you are one of the folks who plays betas for a free trial. Which is not the reason they exist. All testing is not done internally. Hence the term.. BETA TEST - You can't possibly see all of the bugs internally without having a lot of people log into the game from their home and find bugs that you didn't realize were there. It's called a beta because the product is not released yet. It hasn't went "gold" yet.. or the final version. You're just wrong. Flat out incorrect.
The last game I paid to beta test was Dragon's Prophet. I did so under the pretense that open beta wasn't supposed to occur until at least December '13.
Never again will I pay to do so. SOE really screwed the pooch on that game, and released open beta barely a month later with core features missing & placeholder names everywhere (mobs, NPCs, equipment). Complete and utter waste of money, at least until they release a game I'm actually interested in enough to spend my station cash on.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
If you mean me, I didn't pay for UO beta, I got in for 100% free.
The only beta I paid for was SWG - and that was only because they were sending a DVD to you.
And yeah, I will most likely pay for the convenience of having a 100% chance of getting into the beta of EQNL. I could also just not pay and wait to win the beta lottery, but since I'm really interested in that innovative concept of a game, I don't mind forking out $20 which is pocket change for me. Going to the movies with family costs me way more, and only lasts 2 hours.
Well $5 was okay I guess , you have made me a little less shocked , not sure why you don't mind paying $20 now though , yes it isn't a hell of a lot of money ( to some ) , but the principle of it all is skewed mate , sorry but it is. The game might change completely by the live game , it might even not ever come out ( it's possible ). Also in EQNL case it's going to be a free to play game I believe. All the talk on these forums about EA nickel and dimming is nothing compared to this , nothing at all. Imagine johnny asking his parents to pay $100 to join this charade ? God heaven forbid. Yes I'm still a little shocked. Well looks like the people who are going to pay paid for all that lovely development of the non-released MMO The Agency after all , sorry but this is all very dumb.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing. "SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13 The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]
Well $5 was okay I guess , you have made me a little less shocked , not sure why you don't mind paying $20 now though , yes it isn't a hell of a lot of money ( to some ) , but the principle of it all is skewed mate , sorry but it is. The game might change completely by the live game , it might even not ever come out ( it's possible ). Also in EQNL case it's going to be a free to play game I believe. All the talk on these forums about EA nickel and dimming is nothing compared to this , nothing at all. Imagine johnny asking his parents to pay $100 to join this charade ? God heaven forbid. Yes I'm still a little shocked. Well looks like the people who are going to pay paid for all that lovely development of the non-released MMO The Agency after all , sorry but this is all very dumb.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
You miss the point. I will pay $20 for 100% access. I won't have to wait to be lucky.
And for $20, I will definitely at least get a couple of weeks entertainment. As I said, A movie seat nowadays already cost over $10, and the movie only lasts 2 hours... so it's no big deal.
If you mean me, I didn't pay for UO beta, I got in for 100% free.
The only beta I paid for was SWG - and that was only because they were sending a DVD to you.
And yeah, I will most likely pay for the convenience of having a 100% chance of getting into the beta of EQNL. I could also just not pay and wait to win the beta lottery, but since I'm really interested in that innovative concept of a game, I don't mind forking out $20 which is pocket change for me.
So, just going to ignore my question even though you accused me of ignoring yours and I actually answered yours? Sort of hypocritical but alright.
I had to scroll back, and didn't find a real question, but I guess you are refering to this:
"Maybe it makes a better community (even though there is zero proof of that and I honestly doubt it), but it creates a lazy developer studio who don't feel as rushed to fix bugs or get their game out as fast as before because they've already been paid so they don't feel the pressure of needing to release the game as polished as possible."
I see no question mark in the post, but whatever.
What's the difference with a pre-order?
Also, what makes you think the early access money will pay for the full development of the game? (as you hint in "because they've already been paid").
I see no problem here. I would see a problem, eventually, if there wasn't a way to get into the beta the "old way". But that's not the case here, you have 3 ways to get into that beta:
1) Pay for it, get 100% access.
2) Wait for the beta lottery, hope to win.
3) Get those limited time access codes they will flood websites with, cumulate them, enjoy.
My impression is that if they only had option 2, you would have no problem with it. You are very judgmental about how other people spend their money. If I want to spend $20 to be 100% sure to get in the beta of a game I'm watching since it's very first annoucment and which innovative concept intrigue me, instead of waiting for a beta lottery win or having to bother with third party web sites, who are you to tell me that I'm wrong.
Food for thoughts. The world is full of people thinking they know better than you what's good for you, and I strongly dislike that attitude.
I'm sorry but I refuse to answer when you just snipped out something out of my whole quote. My original quote:
"You quoted me and told me I never answered your question. I answered your question yet apparently you are free to pick and choose what you want to answer.
So I'll ask again. Let's say that hypothetically paying for alpha or beta access creates a better community. You're willing to exchange a better community for a lazy development studio. And don't tell me that isn't true. Look at all the indie games, look at Sony's last botched MMO "Dragon's Prophet." They charged for alpha access too. Their development cycle is slow, they don't seem to fix bugs, and Dragon's Prophet's playerbase is now non-existent.
So congratulations I guess. You can hypothetically start out with a decent community but once the game goes live it will still have the same bugs that it had in alpha and beta, and the playerbase will die out very fast. Look at FireFall. They had founder's packs too. Yet when the game was released it had minimal content and a large portion of the playerbase were ticked off because the game was subpar.
This is why it's my belief that paying for an MMO before it's even done being made or polished creates lazy development studios."
Also, you failed to address pretty much anything in my quote. You just commented on how you should be able to pay if you want to and that I am apparently judgemental (even though I've stated if you want to pay "power to you." Just because I refuse to pay that apparently makes me "judgemental." Okay...), besides "What's the difference between pre-order?" Which there is a whole lot of difference. A game is still expected to be 100% finished at release. There are not those same expectations in an MMO because studious always go to the ol' "We'll add it in later."
I'll ask you this, which I hinted at but apparently the lack of question marks confused you, would you rather have paid alpha and beta access with a good community and a lazy developer's studio or would you rather have a free beta and alpha access where the developer's studio feels pressured to release a polished game and fix bugs and problems as fast as possible to obtain maximum revenue when their game launches?
Well $5 was okay I guess , you have made me a little less shocked , not sure why you don't mind paying $20 now though , yes it isn't a hell of a lot of money ( to some ) , but the principle of it all is skewed mate , sorry but it is. The game might change completely by the live game , it might even not ever come out ( it's possible ). Also in EQNL case it's going to be a free to play game I believe. All the talk on these forums about EA nickel and dimming is nothing compared to this , nothing at all. Imagine johnny asking his parents to pay $100 to join this charade ? God heaven forbid. Yes I'm still a little shocked. Well looks like the people who are going to pay paid for all that lovely development of the non-released MMO The Agency after all , sorry but this is all very dumb.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
You miss the point. I will pay $20 for 100% access. I won't have to wait to be lucky.
And for $20, I will definitely at least get a couple of weeks entertainment. As I said, A movie seat nowadays already cost over $10, and the movie only lasts 2 hours... so it's no big deal.
The whole point is they shouldn't even be giving these $20 , $60 or $100 options in the first place , it's disgusting a total rip off and goes against what testing is actually about. I can tell you really wan't to get into the game pronto but like this paying them for an unfinished game ? To Sony of all people , a very rich company that will and has made millions. You like watching unfinished movies too ? I thought you said you would or was it might pay the $60 anyway , maybe I got that wrong though. Well it seems this might become the norm then if more and more companies feel they can get away with it , such a shame and a sham.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing. "SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13 The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]
Well $5 was okay I guess , you have made me a little less shocked , not sure why you don't mind paying $20 now though , yes it isn't a hell of a lot of money ( to some ) , but the principle of it all is skewed mate , sorry but it is. The game might change completely by the live game , it might even not ever come out ( it's possible ). Also in EQNL case it's going to be a free to play game I believe. All the talk on these forums about EA nickel and dimming is nothing compared to this , nothing at all. Imagine johnny asking his parents to pay $100 to join this charade ? God heaven forbid. Yes I'm still a little shocked. Well looks like the people who are going to pay paid for all that lovely development of the non-released MMO The Agency after all , sorry but this is all very dumb.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
You miss the point. I will pay $20 for 100% access. I won't have to wait to be lucky.
And for $20, I will definitely at least get a couple of weeks entertainment. As I said, A movie seat nowadays already cost over $10, and the movie only lasts 2 hours... so it's no big deal.
The whole point is they shouldn't even be giving these $20 , $60 or $100 options in the first place , it's disgusting a total rip off and goes against what testing is actually about. I can tell you really wan't to get into the game pronto but like this paying them for an unfinished game ? To Sony of all people , a very rich company that will and has made millions. You like watching unfinished movies too ? I thought you said you would or was it might pay the $60 anyway , maybe I got that wrong though. Well it seems this might become the norm then if more and more companies feel they can get away with it , such a shame and a sham.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
This has been the norm for nearly 2 decades. Only the marketting of the packages has become more prevailent, due to the growing popularity of the industry.
SWTOR Referral Bonus! Referral link 7 day subscriber level access Returning players get 1 free server transfer
I'm sorry but I refuse to answer when you just snipped out something out of my whole quote. My original quote: "You quoted me and told me I never answered your question. I answered your question yet apparently you are free to pick and choose what you want to answer.
For someone who refuses to answer, that's a pretty long answer, actually
So I'll ask again. Let's say that hypothetically paying for alpha or beta access creates a better community. You're willing to exchange a better community for a lazy development studio. And don't tell me that isn't true. Look at all the indie games, look at Sony's last botched MMO "Dragon's Prophet." They charged for alpha access too. Their development cycle is slow, they don't seem to fix bugs, and Dragon's Prophet's playerbase is now non-existent.
I've tried Dragon's Prophet like I try any other MMO game released, and I didn't find it that bad technically. It's problem is more its very special gameplay.
And also, Dragon's Prophet, just like Vanguard, was developed by a third party company (Runewalker Entertainment here), while EQNL and EQN are pure SoE products. That alone makes a huge difference. Those guys are making MMOs since the first EQ, they aren't the noob developers SoE buys the flawed products back and tries to save (just to increase their game park).
So congratulations I guess. You can hypothetically start out with a decent community but once the game goes live it will still have the same bugs that it had in alpha and beta, and the playerbase will die out very fast. Look at FireFall. They had founder's packs too. Yet when the game was released it had minimal content and a large portion of the playerbase were ticked off because the game was subpar.
Predictions of doom with no roots in reality.
This is why it's my belief that paying for an MMO before it's even done being made or polished creates lazy development studios."
And my belief of giving the OPTION to pay to get a 100% beta access (and some goodies) while keeping the usual lottery beta system too is good for both the developers and for the interested player.
Also, you failed to address pretty much anything in my quote. You just commented on how you should be able to pay if you want to, besides "What's the difference between pre-order?" Which there is a whole lot of difference. A game is still expected to be 100% finished at release. There are not those same expectations in an MMO because studious always go to the ol' "We'll add in later."
When one pre-orders, he still doesn't know if the game will be good or not. It's a gamble... just like here. Only a much more expensive gamble, here it's only $20.
I'll ask you this, which I hinted at but apparently the lack of question marks confused you, would you rather have paid alpha and beta access with a good community and a lazy developer's studio or would you rather have a free beta and alpha access where the developer's studio feels pressured to release a polished game and fix bugs and problems as fast as possible to obtain maximum revenue when their game launches?
The "lazy development studio" is your invention, there's no hint or proof of it so far for EQNL and EQN. So I'd rather have the option to pay to play a game I'm interested in early. Another of your inventions is that the paid for beta will pay for the whole game development. You have no source, no numbers, you only call for doom.
This said, have a nice evening, I'm going to watch one of my 150+ blu-ray movies I paid on average $15 for for only approx. 2 hours of movie entertainement. ;-)
I never said that that money is paying for development. You're putting words in my mouth now. In fact, in previous posts, I said that Sony can easily afford to finance this game without charging for alpha or beta. So please don't just add imagined words that people never actually said. It makes all your arguments come across as irrelevant in the end when you have a need to make up stuff that people never even said.
I'll ask you this, which I hinted at but apparently the lack of question marks confused you, would you rather have paid alpha and beta access with a good community and a lazy developer's studio or would you rather have a free beta and alpha access where the developer's studio feels pressured to release a polished game and fix bugs and problems as fast as possible to obtain maximum revenue when their game launches?
Paid or Free alpha/beta access does not really have any connection with how lazy/frenzied a studio is. I've worked at both kinds of studios and would be hard pressed to tell you which released a better product. I can tell you which company I felt a greater sense of accomplishment at, after the product went into the wild, but not which had a better quality product.
I see this offering of 100% chance at alpha/beta slot as something in the same vein as kickstarter/crowd sourced games, except in this case the game is a little further along.
All companies bug fix and polish, I just think some of the problems come about in the order of what gets fixed and polished. Players and Producers have always looked at a game differently in terms of what the priority of bug fixes should be. Players always seem to fixate on specific bugs and label them as game breakers, where as the producer will look at all the bugs and determine which bugs offer the greater value when fixed, as well as a slew of other factors when determining the order for bug fixes. Good Producers will factor in player input/outrage and bad ones ignore the players. However, all of this has nothing to do with the company offering a paid or free beta testing plan.
I never said that that money is paying for development. You're putting words in my mouth now. In fact, in previous posts, I said that Sony can easily afford to finance this game without charging for alpha or beta. So please don't just add imagined words that people never actually said. It makes all your arguments come across as irrelevant in the end when you have a need to make up stuff that people never even said.
Originally posted by Razeekster
Maybe it makes a better community (even though there is zero proof of that and I honestly doubt it), but it creates a lazy developer studio who don't feel as rushed to fix bugs or get their game out as fast as before because they've already been paid so they don't feel the pressure of needing to release the game as polished as possible.
As I said, have a nice evening. Now I'm really gone
Yeah I said "because they've already been paid." I never said "because they've already been paid the money they need to develop the game." They obviously already have that money. And since I was talking about a company as big as Sony I obviously knew that.
I don't understand your need to try and twist the meaning of one my posts based off a couple words that didn't even back up your statement at all, but alright.
In fact my posts hints more at that money being the money of launch sales which would be extra money...
If I owned a business, and people wanted to try, test, play, my product before I was completely done with it...
well..
yea.
I thought one of the reasons the interwebs was in existence, was so people could complain.
If folks were willing to pay for my unfinished product, i'm fairly certain they would tell me about things that didn't work properly ( see previous sentence), of that I actually have little doubt. Sounds like a win/win for me, I don't care if im a guy in my basement making a game, or Sony, everyones out to make money in (any) business, welcome to the real world.
This thread can go on for a thousand pages, and the next big game that comes out, people will line up to pay for beta, and the developers will sleep like babies.
With the latest announcement of EverQuest Next: Landmark selling founder's pack and including Alpha Access I am officially done alpha testing and beta testing MMOs. Both have become a way for the industry to suck money out of players desperate to be the first ones to try out a game and are no longer about finding bugs and actually testing the game to get it ready for a smooth launch for when it goes live.
It honestly sickens me that the industry has turned this way. Expect in the following years to see new ways for the industry to get more money out of MMO customers. I never saw beta tests turning into these things called "Founders Packs" so I can honestly say, I know for a fact more gimmicks and stuff that you'd never expect the MMO industry to expect you to pay for will be popping up in the future. Just wait and see.
I see where you are coming from but the state of testing has been bad for a while anyhow. The "common folk" never had access to alpha in most cases and closed/open beta seemed little more than a good way to play a game before release. It may seem cheap to offer access for money but if you are willing to pay for it odds are you are pretty invested in the game. That is the type of person I would want testing my game.
More money can't hurt either. This industry is more cutthroat now and this will be a F2P game. If you are invested in it you want to see it succeed and prosper. How many out there have kept subs or paid for things because they want to keep the game up and show support?
The ultimate problem here for some people, is simply that they want early access, and they want it for free. It's that simple.
The thing is, the odds of more than a few people getting into Alpha for testing is slim to none. Most Alphas are completely closed. In fact, most of us don't get into game these days until the "Open Beta" (soft release). What you are paying for here, if you so desire, is *guaranteed* alpha/beta access, along with some cool perks.
Even if they weren't doing this, you likely wouldn't get into Alpha or Closed Beta, so this is neat way to pay to get early access. I personally think it's a great business model, and since people line up to pay for it, the game companies agree.
You can, of course, complain all you want about it, but in the end, money talks. You can wait for Open Beta or Release, and not pay a dime.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
The ultimate problem here for some people, is simply that they want early access, and they want it for free. It's that simple.
The thing is, the odds of more than a few people getting into Alpha for testing is slim to none. Most Alphas are completely closed. In fact, most of us don't get into game these days until the "Open Beta" (soft release). What you are paying for here, if you so desire, is *guaranteed* alpha/beta access, along with some cool perks.
Even if they weren't doing this, you likely wouldn't get into Alpha or Closed Beta, so this is neat way to pay to get early access. I personally think it's a great business model, and since people line up to pay for it, the game companies agree.
You can, of course, complain all you want about it, but in the end, money talks. You can wait for Open Beta or Release, and not pay a dime.
I just find it sort of rude and presumptuous of some posters to say that people only complain because they don't have the money. I have the money. I'm just not going to support a model I see as a greedy cash grab. Simple as that. I'm not telling others they shouldn't pay for alpha. It's their money, they are free to spend it as they see fit.
I just think it's foolish to pay to test a game that hasn't even been finished yet. It's not something I'd ever do.
Originally posted by strawhat0981 Alpha/Closed beta tests are just a money grab now, but in saying that if i know i can get into a beta of a game i want i might just pay it. Weird huh?
I Strongly Disagree this is in many ways a solution to the Beta problem the industry had for years. By making you buy a more expensive copy of the game they are insuring that the people who go to beta and alpha are committed and are going to report issues. Rather than the people who sign up for free betas as a way to do a free trial and quit after 10 hours. They suck up server room and don't contribute anything this gives you more committed testers. And this really is only relevant to Alpha's by the time a game is in beta it really should be in pre-release mode where they are just fixing bugs not changing concepts, but that is just my feelings as an engineer showing through.
This is funny because of how untrue it is. You think people are more committed just because they pay? What a lot of these players do is just to play. They aren't testing the game. They are just flinging their money around so they can say they played the game before anyone else. This isn't the case for everyone, but to say that because someone paid means they are more willing to test the product out more than someone who didn't pay is laughable.
Nope I'm not saying that people who pay are going to always care i'm saying that so few people care at this point that the only way to get those that care is to give them a way to get in if they care enough. This is not some 20 dollar pass we are talking about go look at the prices of EQ landmark alpha access its like 100 bucks. Your telling me you think your more likely to get people who care enough to actually test on a lottery based sign up than by asking them to pay 100 bucks?
This isn't always true but with cult following games like EQ and especially with a sandbox game like landmark i think this a perfect senario to get hardcore minecraft / EQ / Artsie game designers to all come and try this game and give feed back during the alpha stage.
All of the people out there who actualy want to test and let their feedback be heard while its still early enough to have an impact should be thrilled by systems like this cause with the number of people who sign up for beta's these days as an early access free trial your odds of getting in otherwise are low.
With the latest announcement of EverQuest Next: Landmark selling founder's pack and including Alpha Access I am officially done alpha testing and beta testing MMOs. Both have become a way for the industry to suck money out of players desperate to be the first ones to try out a game and are no longer about finding bugs and actually testing the game to get it ready for a smooth launch for when it goes live.
It honestly sickens me that the industry has turned this way. Expect in the following years to see new ways for the industry to get more money out of MMO customers. I never saw beta tests turning into these things called "Founders Packs" so I can honestly say, I know for a fact more gimmicks and stuff that you'd never expect the MMO industry to expect you to pay for will be popping up in the future. Just wait and see.
I agree but there's already another extreme and that's Kickstarter.
Now the customer base is not only suppose to buy a game, pay for extra DLC, indulge in cash shop models, pay a subscription, but there also suppose to hand money over in the hope a company might make a game they possibly could like, with no avenue for compensation or, (reward), if it all goes wrong.
It is of course ludicrous, but it's simply another version of what entertainment companies used to do in exploiting a fanatic fanbase, (i.e. Starwars/Lucasarts Star Trex/Paramount). The fans may complain but because there so invested in the i.p they'll still buy whatever products or access, even if they were burnt a few times, if that happens the companies will keep doing it, (convention package ripoffs used to be the big one with Star Trek as I recall).
The only way to stop it is to keep the wallet shut and finding other things to invest in. However that is easier said then done for many as no profit making company has your best interests at heart...
With the latest announcement of EverQuest Next: Landmark selling founder's pack and including Alpha Access I am officially done alpha testing and beta testing MMOs. Both have become a way for the industry to suck money out of players desperate to be the first ones to try out a game and are no longer about finding bugs and actually testing the game to get it ready for a smooth launch for when it goes live.
It honestly sickens me that the industry has turned this way. Expect in the following years to see new ways for the industry to get more money out of MMO customers. I never saw beta tests turning into these things called "Founders Packs" so I can honestly say, I know for a fact more gimmicks and stuff that you'd never expect the MMO industry to expect you to pay for will be popping up in the future. Just wait and see.
I agree but there's already another extreme and that's Kickstarter.
Now the customer base is not only suppose to buy a game, pay for extra DLC, indulge in cash shop models, pay a subscription, but there also suppose to hand money over in the hope a company might make a game they possibly could like, with no avenue for compensation or, (reward), if it all goes wrong.
It is of course ludicrous, but it's simply another version of what entertainment companies used to do in exploiting a fanatic fanbase, (i.e. Starwars/Lucasarts Star Trex/Paramount). The fans may complain but because there so invested in the i.p they'll still buy whatever products or access, even if they were burnt a few times, if that happens the companies will keep doing it, (convention package ripoffs used to be the big one with Star Trek as I recall).
The only way to stop it is to keep the wallet shut and finding other things to invest in. However that is easier said then done for many as no profit making company has your best interests at heart...
Kickstarter I view as something a bit different because a lot of games have been created through it that wouldn't have been able to be made otherwise or they would have been vastly different because they would have been made under the predatory eyes of a company investing in the game.
Kickstarter for the most allows game to be made the way the developers want 100%. Also if you donate money that is already equivalent to the price of what the game is going to go for you get the game anyways without having to pay again.
paid beta´s is only obvious, since game companies, such as SOE doesnt have to rely on amatures anymore to get their product proper tested, paired with the fact that people pay silly amounts of money for the hard to get into alpha/beta tests even today - so instead of trying to ban people who bought their access they just cut the middle man.
I never bought or sold any beta access myself but have seen beta keys offered for 200$+ and seemed to be sold
I don't have a problem with charging for alpha/beta for an mmo if I'm interested in it, it beats having to buy it from someone possibly shady on Ebay. EQ LandMark though, I'm not interested in paying to play the alpha, maybe the beta. I just don't like the extremely unfinished alphas to be honest. Same with Everquest Next, if offered I'd pay to play the beta for it, but not the alpha. I just like a more finished testing to play for Mmo's.
Comments
The fact that you see a beta test as "marketing" cements the fact that you are one of the folks who plays betas for a free trial. Which is not the reason they exist. All testing is not done internally. Hence the term.. BETA TEST - You can't possibly see all of the bugs internally without having a lot of people log into the game from their home and find bugs that you didn't realize were there. It's called a beta because the product is not released yet. It hasn't went "gold" yet.. or the final version. You're just wrong. Flat out incorrect.
Must have missed it, this thread has been moving fast, so my apologies.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
So, just going to ignore my question even though you accused me of ignoring yours and I actually answered yours? Sort of hypocritical but alright.
Smile
I was referring to the pay to test issue this thread was focused on. Testing phases have changed, most recently FFXIV is a good example, I don't recall many old games just having weekend trials as "Closed Betas" I think that's a different subject all together though.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Let me burst your bubble here, and I'm probably not the first one to do it. There are no public beta test. They are in fact marketing events, to build word of mouth for release. QA test is a business, that is not left to amateurs. But marketing to Alpha Users(AU) is the trend.
Alpha Users are trend setters and have mass followings. AUs will buy "alpha and beta test" access at a premium, and not complain about it. Whatever their gaming experience was like they will hype the game, and their followers will follow. When a game asks you to follow them on social media, they are assessing you AU status (think Gear Score). The higher the status the more likely you get and invite. People who can't afford to buy access, probably can't afford to buy the game. Poor people are rarely Alpha Users.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Wrong again. Go back and check those facts.
The last game I paid to beta test was Dragon's Prophet. I did so under the pretense that open beta wasn't supposed to occur until at least December '13.
Never again will I pay to do so. SOE really screwed the pooch on that game, and released open beta barely a month later with core features missing & placeholder names everywhere (mobs, NPCs, equipment). Complete and utter waste of money, at least until they release a game I'm actually interested in enough to spend my station cash on.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
#IStandWithVic
Well $5 was okay I guess , you have made me a little less shocked , not sure why you don't mind paying $20 now though , yes it isn't a hell of a lot of money ( to some ) , but the principle of it all is skewed mate , sorry but it is. The game might change completely by the live game , it might even not ever come out ( it's possible ). Also in EQNL case it's going to be a free to play game I believe. All the talk on these forums about EA nickel and dimming is nothing compared to this , nothing at all. Imagine johnny asking his parents to pay $100 to join this charade ? God heaven forbid. Yes I'm still a little shocked. Well looks like the people who are going to pay paid for all that lovely development of the non-released MMO The Agency after all , sorry but this is all very dumb.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing.
"SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]
Ah, "entertainment".
I'm sorry but I refuse to answer when you just snipped out something out of my whole quote. My original quote:
"You quoted me and told me I never answered your question. I answered your question yet apparently you are free to pick and choose what you want to answer.
So I'll ask again. Let's say that hypothetically paying for alpha or beta access creates a better community. You're willing to exchange a better community for a lazy development studio. And don't tell me that isn't true. Look at all the indie games, look at Sony's last botched MMO "Dragon's Prophet." They charged for alpha access too. Their development cycle is slow, they don't seem to fix bugs, and Dragon's Prophet's playerbase is now non-existent.
So congratulations I guess. You can hypothetically start out with a decent community but once the game goes live it will still have the same bugs that it had in alpha and beta, and the playerbase will die out very fast. Look at FireFall. They had founder's packs too. Yet when the game was released it had minimal content and a large portion of the playerbase were ticked off because the game was subpar.
This is why it's my belief that paying for an MMO before it's even done being made or polished creates lazy development studios."
Also, you failed to address pretty much anything in my quote. You just commented on how you should be able to pay if you want to and that I am apparently judgemental (even though I've stated if you want to pay "power to you." Just because I refuse to pay that apparently makes me "judgemental." Okay...), besides "What's the difference between pre-order?" Which there is a whole lot of difference. A game is still expected to be 100% finished at release. There are not those same expectations in an MMO because studious always go to the ol' "We'll add it in later."
I'll ask you this, which I hinted at but apparently the lack of question marks confused you, would you rather have paid alpha and beta access with a good community and a lazy developer's studio or would you rather have a free beta and alpha access where the developer's studio feels pressured to release a polished game and fix bugs and problems as fast as possible to obtain maximum revenue when their game launches?
Smile
The whole point is they shouldn't even be giving these $20 , $60 or $100 options in the first place , it's disgusting a total rip off and goes against what testing is actually about. I can tell you really wan't to get into the game pronto but like this paying them for an unfinished game ? To Sony of all people , a very rich company that will and has made millions. You like watching unfinished movies too ? I thought you said you would or was it might pay the $60 anyway , maybe I got that wrong though. Well it seems this might become the norm then if more and more companies feel they can get away with it , such a shame and a sham.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing.
"SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]
This has been the norm for nearly 2 decades. Only the marketting of the packages has become more prevailent, due to the growing popularity of the industry.
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I never said that that money is paying for development. You're putting words in my mouth now. In fact, in previous posts, I said that Sony can easily afford to finance this game without charging for alpha or beta. So please don't just add imagined words that people never actually said. It makes all your arguments come across as irrelevant in the end when you have a need to make up stuff that people never even said.
Smile
Paid or Free alpha/beta access does not really have any connection with how lazy/frenzied a studio is. I've worked at both kinds of studios and would be hard pressed to tell you which released a better product. I can tell you which company I felt a greater sense of accomplishment at, after the product went into the wild, but not which had a better quality product.
I see this offering of 100% chance at alpha/beta slot as something in the same vein as kickstarter/crowd sourced games, except in this case the game is a little further along.
All companies bug fix and polish, I just think some of the problems come about in the order of what gets fixed and polished. Players and Producers have always looked at a game differently in terms of what the priority of bug fixes should be. Players always seem to fixate on specific bugs and label them as game breakers, where as the producer will look at all the bugs and determine which bugs offer the greater value when fixed, as well as a slew of other factors when determining the order for bug fixes. Good Producers will factor in player input/outrage and bad ones ignore the players. However, all of this has nothing to do with the company offering a paid or free beta testing plan.
Yeah I said "because they've already been paid." I never said "because they've already been paid the money they need to develop the game." They obviously already have that money. And since I was talking about a company as big as Sony I obviously knew that.
I don't understand your need to try and twist the meaning of one my posts based off a couple words that didn't even back up your statement at all, but alright.
In fact my posts hints more at that money being the money of launch sales which would be extra money...
Smile
If I owned a business, and people wanted to try, test, play, my product before I was completely done with it...
well..
yea.
I thought one of the reasons the interwebs was in existence, was so people could complain.
If folks were willing to pay for my unfinished product, i'm fairly certain they would tell me about things that didn't work properly ( see previous sentence), of that I actually have little doubt. Sounds like a win/win for me, I don't care if im a guy in my basement making a game, or Sony, everyones out to make money in (any) business, welcome to the real world.
This thread can go on for a thousand pages, and the next big game that comes out, people will line up to pay for beta, and the developers will sleep like babies.
I see where you are coming from but the state of testing has been bad for a while anyhow. The "common folk" never had access to alpha in most cases and closed/open beta seemed little more than a good way to play a game before release. It may seem cheap to offer access for money but if you are willing to pay for it odds are you are pretty invested in the game. That is the type of person I would want testing my game.
More money can't hurt either. This industry is more cutthroat now and this will be a F2P game. If you are invested in it you want to see it succeed and prosper. How many out there have kept subs or paid for things because they want to keep the game up and show support?
The ultimate problem here for some people, is simply that they want early access, and they want it for free. It's that simple.
The thing is, the odds of more than a few people getting into Alpha for testing is slim to none. Most Alphas are completely closed. In fact, most of us don't get into game these days until the "Open Beta" (soft release). What you are paying for here, if you so desire, is *guaranteed* alpha/beta access, along with some cool perks.
Even if they weren't doing this, you likely wouldn't get into Alpha or Closed Beta, so this is neat way to pay to get early access. I personally think it's a great business model, and since people line up to pay for it, the game companies agree.
You can, of course, complain all you want about it, but in the end, money talks. You can wait for Open Beta or Release, and not pay a dime.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I just find it sort of rude and presumptuous of some posters to say that people only complain because they don't have the money. I have the money. I'm just not going to support a model I see as a greedy cash grab. Simple as that. I'm not telling others they shouldn't pay for alpha. It's their money, they are free to spend it as they see fit.
I just think it's foolish to pay to test a game that hasn't even been finished yet. It's not something I'd ever do.
Smile
Nope I'm not saying that people who pay are going to always care i'm saying that so few people care at this point that the only way to get those that care is to give them a way to get in if they care enough. This is not some 20 dollar pass we are talking about go look at the prices of EQ landmark alpha access its like 100 bucks. Your telling me you think your more likely to get people who care enough to actually test on a lottery based sign up than by asking them to pay 100 bucks?
This isn't always true but with cult following games like EQ and especially with a sandbox game like landmark i think this a perfect senario to get hardcore minecraft / EQ / Artsie game designers to all come and try this game and give feed back during the alpha stage.
All of the people out there who actualy want to test and let their feedback be heard while its still early enough to have an impact should be thrilled by systems like this cause with the number of people who sign up for beta's these days as an early access free trial your odds of getting in otherwise are low.
I agree but there's already another extreme and that's Kickstarter.
Now the customer base is not only suppose to buy a game, pay for extra DLC, indulge in cash shop models, pay a subscription, but there also suppose to hand money over in the hope a company might make a game they possibly could like, with no avenue for compensation or, (reward), if it all goes wrong.
It is of course ludicrous, but it's simply another version of what entertainment companies used to do in exploiting a fanatic fanbase, (i.e. Starwars/Lucasarts Star Trex/Paramount). The fans may complain but because there so invested in the i.p they'll still buy whatever products or access, even if they were burnt a few times, if that happens the companies will keep doing it, (convention package ripoffs used to be the big one with Star Trek as I recall).
The only way to stop it is to keep the wallet shut and finding other things to invest in. However that is easier said then done for many as no profit making company has your best interests at heart...
This looks like a job for....The Riviera Kid!
Kickstarter I view as something a bit different because a lot of games have been created through it that wouldn't have been able to be made otherwise or they would have been vastly different because they would have been made under the predatory eyes of a company investing in the game.
Kickstarter for the most allows game to be made the way the developers want 100%. Also if you donate money that is already equivalent to the price of what the game is going to go for you get the game anyways without having to pay again.
Smile
paid beta´s is only obvious, since game companies, such as SOE doesnt have to rely on amatures anymore to get their product proper tested, paired with the fact that people pay silly amounts of money for the hard to get into alpha/beta tests even today - so instead of trying to ban people who bought their access they just cut the middle man.
I never bought or sold any beta access myself but have seen beta keys offered for 200$+ and seemed to be sold
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
Blizzards Hearthstone is a recent example of this
if you were a lucky and Blizzard sent you a beta key
-- it was not attached to your battlenet acct that you registered for beta
players were freely able to sell their beta keys on ebay
EQ2 fan sites