Karma is worthless - when you can acquire 5 million of it but have nothing to buy because anything worth using currency on is restricted to using gold, you have a fail system that is driven (restricted) by the need for gems-->gold conversion by the players who don't have the time - which ruins the fun.
That's not entirely accurate. When you're leveling up and first get to 80 you can use karma to fully equip your character in exotic gear, which is more than adequate (and was top line before ascended).
you know you need karma for W3 gear, need karma for legendary, karma can be used to buy tools for gathering, karma can be used to get some golbs of ectosplasm, karma is as useless as money in any MMO.
plus I find it funny GW2 have more players playing then most games out there and no one keep trying to prove why they game falied,
also one little side note the gems gold conversion you do it if you want you can choose to farm money or pay gems so you sell it for gold, that is one way to keep gold sellers out, but fools will be folls and some people don't matter what will pay gold sellers to get a fake sense of edge and in process damage the game they liked so much
Karma is worthless - when you can acquire 5 million of it but have nothing to buy because anything worth using currency on is restricted to using gold, you have a fail system that is driven (restricted) by the need for gems-->gold conversion by the players who don't have the time - which ruins the fun.
That's not entirely accurate. When you're leveling up and first get to 80 you can use karma to fully equip your character in exotic gear, which is more than adequate (and was top line before ascended).
I was going to say, KARMA isn't without it's limitations as well, but that's a whole new thread I think. The fact is, As I was saying before, both systems have tradeoffs. You can acknowledge it or not, But GW2's leveling reward system is lacking where a hub system isn't. And admittedly, it goes both ways. Both have pros and cons.
As a side note here, It's tiring when someone like me who doesn't hate GW2, who really does enjoy the game a lot. tries to come in and have a balanced conversation about pros and cons to both GW2 and whatever other game it's being compared to, Usually WoW, which is also a very good game in it's own right and one I am also currently playing. One that I will probably break from soon and return to GW2 (I have unfinished characters that I want to finish) And every time someone (not just me) brings up what they feel is a legit shortcoming to GW2 or where they feel the game might be improved upon, or where they feel the other game does it better or where GW2 didn't produce the actual desired effect, there is without an exception, the overwhelming need to prove that no such issue exists within GW2. And attempt to discredit the person making such claims about GW2.
It's a good game, but it's not perfect, so why is it that there is ALWAYS an attack on either the poster, or the post. And I am not talking about outrageous and ignorant claims. Those should be challenged.
I can understand if you still prefer GW2's leveling regardless of what I said earlier. But that doesn't mean that It's an outrageous claim to say that quest hub based rewards can pinpoint specific upgrades a player needs at a specific times better than DEs can. And also pointing out limitations of Lore advancement in DEs etc etc. These were my legit experience in GW2. If I did it wrong, well, OK. But I don't think I did.
EDIT: I am sorry, I realize that looks like it's directed at one person. It's not (Volkon) I really am speaking more in general terms. Please forgive me if that feels like I'm accusing you. I'm not. It's just that was one example from many different posters over the months.
Most of the times, the "short comings" end up as being "it is different from WoW".
Questing, as it is done in WoW has what I perceive as problems, some of them that GW2 change for the better, although it is possible to improve on traditional questing.
First, questing in WoW is done by text and then it requires imagination from my part to actual believe the text I've read is depicted in the world.
For example, in WoW I talk to the NPC and he say that those orcs are raiding his farm, but in the world what I see is orcs standing. they were standing there (most often doing nothing) before I talked to the NPC and they will be standing there after I leave (also doing nothing).
In GW2 I see the centaurs coming around that cliff or that bush (sometimes it is badly done and I can see them materialize out of thin air) and they start setting the farm on fire. I kill the centaurs, they will be gone (they will come back again and again, but they are gone for a while). Also the it is voice acted and that is personal preference.
I also get credit for killing the centaurs even if I didn't talk to the NPC (some GW2 DE require you to talk to the NPC to start the caravan or something of the sort) beforehand while in WoW I might have killed a 1000 orcs "raiding" the farm before talked to the NPC but those don't count, I still need to go and kill another 10 orcs.
Also in GW2 my friend and I can do that DE event no problem while in WoW my friend might have already done the quest or he might have to do 2 or 3 pre requisite quests so I need to wait for him.
There is also all the quest journal managing that just does not exist in GW2.
While it is true quest pin point upgrades (if I want to be mean I can call it hand holding), the truth is that level 30 quest as no value to me if I'm level 60, while the DE still rewards me.
More, the Heart Vendors have levels and you can easily track their levels on the map so you can see what kind of gear you should be using (in case gear levels isn't enough ).
Because you see, the leveling experience is based on Personal Story, Hearts and Dynamic Events - a player doing those will fing appropriate gear via the Personal Story and Hearts, and hearts will serve as general directions to some of the Events.
EDIT: I was typing this post for a while before I've seen your edit. I'm keeping it because it is a good example of how people decide to point at some aspects ignoring other GW2 differences, in this case that the leveling system is composed of 3 pillars (DEs, Hearts, Personal Story) versus quests.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Most of the times, the "short comings" end up as being "it is different from WoW".
Questing, as it is done in WoW has what I perceive as problems, some of them that GW2 change for the better, although it is possible to improve on traditional questing.
First, questing in WoW is done by text and then it requires imagination from my part to actual believe the text I've read is depicted in the world.
For example, in WoW I talk to the NPC and he say that those orcs are raiding his farm, but in the world what I see is orcs standing. they were standing there (most often doing nothing) before I talked to the NPC and they will be standing there after I leave (also doing nothing).
In GW2 I see the centaurs coming around that cliff or that bush (sometimes it is badly done and I can see them materialize out of thin air) and they start setting the farm on fire. I kill the centaurs, they will be gone (they will come back again and again, but they are gone for a while). Also the it is voice acted and that is personal preference.
WoW has made a lot of changes in this area. New content, as well as revamped older content, is not like it used to be. With Phasing and such, You see the Gnolls fighting with Sentinal Hill guards now. And after you complete the story line, the zone changes permanently.
Orcs are actively attacking Astranaar when you level through, you have to help defend the town and when it's over, you have helped to permanently fend off the attackers.
WoW isn't at all what people remember it to be anymore.
Not all it is better, but it's evolved. and a lot of it is pretty good.
I also get credit for killing the centaurs even if I didn't talk to the NPC (some GW2 DE require you to talk to the NPC to start the caravan or something of the sort) beforehand while in WoW I might have killed a 1000 orcs "raiding" the farm before talked to the NPC but those don't count, I still need to go and kill another 10 orcs.
This is still a PITA in WoW. Especially on a busy server. Although, there are a lot of named mobs now where you get credit for participating in the kill regardless of who tagged 1st. Boss mobs, Quest mobs, Rare elites in certain zones allow anyone to tag a hit on the mob as long as it's still aive and you register a hit, you are good.
Also in GW2 my friend and I can do that DE event no problem while in WoW my friend might have already done the quest or he might have to do 2 or 3 pre requisite quests so I need to wait for him.
This is a valid point.
There is also all the quest journal managing that just does not exist in GW2.
I never was put off by this, but yeah, OK.
While it is true quest pin point upgrades (if I want to be mean I can call it hand holding), the truth is that level 30 quest as no value to me if I'm level 60, while the DE still rewards me.
But there are level 60 quests with rewards for you that you should be doing.
More, the Heart Vendors have levels and you can easily track their levels on the map so you can see what kind of gear you should be using (in case gear levels isn't enough ).
WoW has implemented automated questing. It's not 100% hands free like Hearts, you still have to click the accept/complete buttons, but you don't have to always go back and forth to the NPCs. It's limited, there are a few of these, the game needs more TBH, but they do exist.
Because you see, the leveling experience is based on Personal Story, Hearts and Dynamic Events - a player doing those will fing appropriate gear via the Personal Story and Hearts, and hearts will serve as general directions to some of the Events.
I never found the rewards from the personal story to be adequate.
EDIT: I was typing this post for a while before I've seen your edit. I'm keeping it because it is a good example of how people decide to point at some aspects ignoring other GW2 differences, in this case that the leveling system is composed of 3 pillars (DEs, Hearts, Personal Story) versus quests.
You have some valid points. Some I agreed with more than others.
Based on this description as well as many many others, people are critcizing WoW based on outdated information of how WoW used to be and not how it's changed.
Trust me. I had a difficult time putting past my impression of "Pandyland"
But I did. What I found was an enjoyable experience. And one that was overall quite different than it used to be.
Now granted. I've been levling in a fully twinked and enchanted set of heirloom gear. But so what? It's fun that way.
Based on this description as well as many many others, people are critcizing WoW based on outdated information of how WoW used to be and not how it's changed.
That statement right there applies to roughly 95% of all comments made about WoW on mmorpg.com :-)
WoW is also in the process of testing level scaling to older content (it will be optional because way more people don't want it than those that do) for WoD. I can totally see people here saying "GW2 does it and WoW does not" looong after its gone live....this very thread has many instances like that so far. I'm not even sure why GW2 defenders are bringing up wow to begin with anyway. Every critisim of GW2 gets turned into "ya well, it does XXXX better than WoW". I hope we all realise WoW is not the only other MMO on the market.
Trust me. I had a difficult time putting past my impression of "Pandyland"
But I did. What I found was an enjoyable experience. And one that was overall quite different than it used to be.
Now granted. I've been levling in a fully twinked and enchanted set of heirloom gear. But so what? It's fun that way.
How fast and how far can I push it?
The thing with the phasing is that it makes it even more difficult to play with your friends.
I played a bit of WoW around cataclysm.
I can also say much of the information about GW2 that detractors and critics are spewing is out dated or out right wrong.
That is the thing about MMORPGs - they keep evolving. that is why I don't go to WoW forums talk about stuff I don't know. I'm sure many GW2 players go talk crap in other games forums, like many players that never played GW2 or played it 1 year ago come here talking crap.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
I'm not even sure why GW2 defenders are bringing up wow to begin with anyway. Every critisim of GW2 gets turned into "ya well, it does XXXX better than WoW". I hope we all realise WoW is not the only other MMO on the market.
It is the MMO that has shaped expectations for games in this genre like no other, and it's these expectations, not a specific game, that all new MMOs are measured against.
GW2 isn't perfect, I quit it due to time constraints even though I was still enjoying it immensely last year, but things like the fractals, lack of ways to stand out with your character, the world transfers that destroyed server pride were big detractors to the game.
As well as my personal petpeeve being the retarded stealth mechanics, but ah well.
To the OP and people complaining about "linear" questing in GW2 though: you're simply doing it wrong, maybe you should look into changing your own faulty mindset first before complaining.
I leveled 2 80's and kept going back to lower level zones with my main to help mates, never once did I feel forced to follow a linear path, it's simply up to you.
Sure, you could just stick to the human area as a human and go from the first village to the next level place and force yourself to complete one thing at a time, then you are choosing to follow a line.
Or you could do like I did and don't give a flying frak where you're going, you could take off in a random direction and actually be surprised by the events you see, take your human to any other starter area and do the same, be challenged by mobs that are slightly above you, change your mindset.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Based on this description as well as many many others, people are critcizing WoW based on outdated information of how WoW used to be and not how it's changed.
Well, I do not. Leveling my Monk as we speak, and also playing my max level characters every day.
Trust me. I had a difficult time putting past my impression of "Pandyland"
My biggest grief about Pandaria is the ultimately linear questing experience from 85 to 90. It's not a problem with the first character, but your alts then go through exactly the same content again. Second grief is the dumbing down of the talent trees.
But otherwise, it's indeed a fun experience. I even enjoy the farming (the vegetable growing, not dungeon farming =P).
I just mean that someone can enjoy a game without thinking it is completely perfect. WoW is not perfect, GW2 neither, both games have done things better than the other in different aspects. Actually, the fact that WoW and several other games started to copy several aspects of GW2 proves that ANet did many things right too.
I should have been clear.
I should not have implied that everyone in these forums bashes WoW based on 3+ year old memories of why they quit. In fact, I was more than aware of your prior posts in this same thread stating how you currently play WoW.
While I think they have made some good strides. I cannot deny that WoW is still much more linear than it should be. In fact, I think, in that regard alone, WoW may have actually taken some very large strides backwards from Vanilla and TBC.
I remember back in TBC, my primary toon was a hunter. But I wanted to have a Paladin ready to go at the launch of Wrath. My brother wanted a War. So, we decided to duo level alts. While everyone else was finishing their last hurahs in TBC, we started newbs.
It was a fun experience, but I'll tell you what. I'd never do that again, We had to plot out our leveling sessions on a Calendar. We HAD to keep our quests synchronized. If one of us wasn't online, we couldn't really do anything other than maybe work on professions.
That said, there are alternatives now. I'm on a new realm leveling a new Paladin again. But this time, I have decided to skip most of the quest hub grind. I've done 20 levels in the past 3 evenings doing nothing but dungeon LFG. I've never leveled this way in WoW before, I am going to take it as far as I can go. Hopefully all the way to 90. Depending on how this works in the Pandaria expansion. It could serve as a viable alternative to the linear experience.
I think that once I have this paladin at 90, and geared out to at least 500 (easy enough now) and have 600 in all his professions, I will park it and break from WoW and go back to GW2 until WoD.
Not sure yet.
EDIT:
OK, and looking back, I think I've taken this thread off track so, I guess I'm done posting about WoW here....unless it applies to the OP.
Servers are still packed and the game is critically acclaimed.
By falling off do you mean its not WoW with 7+ Million players?
Honestly to me GW2 was a raging success. Maybe your expectations were too high?
Thats the mentality of most sadly. SWTOR was also a raging success (500k subs, million active players/month, top 3 revenu generating game for EA), but because its expectations were higher, most people throw that around when calling it a faileur.
Servers are still packed and the game is critically acclaimed.
By falling off do you mean its not WoW with 7+ Million players?
Honestly to me GW2 was a raging success. Maybe your expectations were too high?
Thats the mentality of most sadly. SWTOR was also a raging success (500k subs, million active players/month, top 3 revenu generating game for EA), but because its expectations were higher, most people throw that around when calling it a faileur.
But that's just it. Expectations are a huge part of what determines success or failure. SWTOR had much higer expectations than FF14's reboot. As I recall, and please correct me if I am wrong. FF14 would consider themselves successful to have ended up with 250K subs, where SWTOR said something to the effect of needing half a mil to just to maintain status quo.
And another factor that people need to remember especially with GW2, is that just maintaining packed servers is not the only success criteria that ANET and NCSOFT are using. GW2 could see a doubling or more of consistent concurrent active players but if fewer and fewer people are buying gems, there is going to be a problem. But we would never see it. Likewise, GW2 could suddenly lose 2/3 to 3/4 of it's active player base and yet if those who remain increase their gem purchases, that would still be a good thing for the publishers.
Servers are still packed and the game is critically acclaimed.
By falling off do you mean its not WoW with 7+ Million players?
Honestly to me GW2 was a raging success. Maybe your expectations were too high?
Thats the mentality of most sadly. SWTOR was also a raging success (500k subs, million active players/month, top 3 revenu generating game for EA), but because its expectations were higher, most people throw that around when calling it a faileur.
But that's just it. Expectations are a huge part of what determines success or failure. SWTOR had much higer expectations than FF14's reboot. As I recall, and please correct me if I am wrong. FF14 would consider themselves successful to have ended up with 250K subs, where SWTOR said something to the effect of needing half a mil to just to maintain status quo.
And another factor that people need to remember especially with GW2, is that just maintaining packed servers is not the only success criteria that ANET and NCSOFT are using. GW2 could see a doubling or more of consistent concurrent active players but if fewer and fewer people are buying gems, there is going to be a problem. But we would never see it. Likewise, GW2 could suddenly lose 2/3 to 3/4 of it's active player base and yet if those who remain increase their gem purchases, that would still be a good thing for the publishers.
This is going quite off topic quite a bit, so ill end with this: Yes, the expectations failed spectacularly, but the game itself did not. The game itself is quite successfull compared to all other MMOs ever released.
But that's just it. Expectations are a huge part of what determines success or failure. SWTOR had much higer expectations than FF14's reboot. As I recall, and please correct me if I am wrong. FF14 would consider themselves successful to have ended up with 250K subs, where SWTOR said something to the effect of needing half a mil to just to maintain status quo.
Since we talk about SW:TOR (for a change), I definitely don't think that game is a failure. It didn't meet the expectations... of the publisher (greedy EA) who expected several million staying subscribers. I played it a long time, and I enjoyed it a lot. The combat is as reactive as GW2 or WoW (I mean "press the key, and you see it on the screen"), the story lines weren't that bad either. The end game was a grind, but so is WoW, in a different way, SW:TOR just lacks the many years WoW had to add more end game activities - and so does GW2 by the way. I really hope they'll add the planned guild housing to GW2, for instance.
What killed SW:TOR for me is the utterly greedy cash shop.
I mean, I have pre-ordered SW:TOR, and I've paid many months of subscriptions too. So for me, it's a "B2P" game, not " F2P" game. If EA had respected their founders, we would not have to buy back UI elements, yes, hotbars, the ability to display your title or your guild name, the ability to turn of your cloak or helmet, and many others. We fucking bought the game way before it was free to play. Even Turbine with LOTRO wasn't that greedy. But hell... having to buy back UI elements when I already BOUGHT the damned game (digital collector, mind you)... no way. EA and Bioware can die in hell.
That's where you see that GW2's cash shop model is one of the best of the market for the player.
Well......
I knew about TOR's selling UI functionality. I though tthat was a bit over the top TBH, but OK, I get it, it's a F2P game they have to make money somehow....
But to hear that those who bought the box and that it doesn't include the UI elements. I mean HOLY ****!!!!!!
That's unacceptable. I had almost bought TOR too. I tried the F2P version and it was fun. But I was put off by the "Here's your measly little reward, but had you subscribed, your reward would have been this" Type of hard sell. But your stroy.....that's just .......wow!
But that's just it. Expectations are a huge part of what determines success or failure. SWTOR had much higer expectations than FF14's reboot. As I recall, and please correct me if I am wrong. FF14 would consider themselves successful to have ended up with 250K subs, where SWTOR said something to the effect of needing half a mil to just to maintain status quo.
Since we talk about SW:TOR (for a change), I definitely don't think that game is a failure. It didn't meet the expectations... of the publisher (greedy EA) who expected several million staying subscribers. I played it a long time, and I enjoyed it a lot. The combat is as reactive as GW2 or WoW (I mean "press the key, and you see it on the screen"), the story lines weren't that bad either. The end game was a grind, but so is WoW, in a different way, SW:TOR just lacks the many years WoW had to add more end game activities - and so does GW2 by the way. I really hope they'll add the planned guild housing to GW2, for instance.
What killed SW:TOR for me is the utterly greedy cash shop.
I mean, I have pre-ordered SW:TOR, and I've paid many months of subscriptions too. So for me, it's a "B2P" game, not " F2P" game. If EA had respected their founders, we would not have to buy back UI elements, yes, hotbars, the ability to display your title or your guild name, the ability to turn of your cloak or helmet, and many others. We fucking bought the game way before it was free to play. Even Turbine with LOTRO wasn't that greedy. But hell... having to buy back UI elements when I already BOUGHT the damned game (digital collector, mind you)... no way. EA and Bioware can die in hell.
That's where you see that GW2's cash shop model is one of the best of the market for the player.
Well......
I knew about TOR's selling UI functionality. I though tthat was a bit over the top TBH, but OK, I get it, it's a F2P game they have to make money somehow....
But to hear that those who bought the box and that it doesn't include the UI elements. I mean HOLY ****!!!!!!
That's unacceptable. I had almost bought TOR too. I tried the F2P version and it was fun. But I was put off by the "Here's your measly little reward, but had you subscribed, your reward would have been this" Type of hard sell. But your stroy.....that's just .......wow!
I know, I couldn't understand how this is considered in anyway acceptable either. For some reason I went back to the game after it turned F2P and subscribed, and then discovered I still had to pay rl cash to expand inventories, bank slots, to open up lower level vehicles etc, things that simply should be included within a subscription.
It is quite a horrible F2P model they have at SWTOR.
I know, I couldn't understand how this is considered in anyway acceptable either. For some reason I went back to the game after it turned F2P and subscribed, and then discovered I still had to pay rl cash to expand inventories, bank slots, to open up lower level vehicles etc, things that simply should be included within a subscription.
No wonder SWTOR gets a bad rap. People go on game forums and lie about it outright.
Originally posted by LittleBoot Originally posted by GeezerGamerOriginally posted by Jean-Luc_PicardOriginally posted by GeezerGamerBut that's just it. Expectations are a huge part of what determines success or failure. SWTOR had much higer expectations than FF14's reboot. As I recall, and please correct me if I am wrong. FF14 would consider themselves successful to have ended up with 250K subs, where SWTOR said something to the effect of needing half a mil to just to maintain status quo.
Since we talk about SW:TOR (for a change), I definitely don't think that game is a failure. It didn't meet the expectations... of the publisher (greedy EA) who expected several million staying subscribers. I played it a long time, and I enjoyed it a lot. The combat is as reactive as GW2 or WoW (I mean "press the key, and you see it on the screen"), the story lines weren't that bad either. The end game was a grind, but so is WoW, in a different way, SW:TOR just lacks the many years WoW had to add more end game activities - and so does GW2 by the way. I really hope they'll add the planned guild housing to GW2, for instance.What killed SW:TOR for me is the utterly greedy cash shop.I mean, I have pre-ordered SW:TOR, and I've paid many months of subscriptions too. So for me, it's a "B2P" game, not " F2P" game. If EA had respected their founders, we would not have to buy back UI elements, yes, hotbars, the ability to display your title or your guild name, the ability to turn of your cloak or helmet, and many others. We fucking bought the game way before it was free to play. Even Turbine with LOTRO wasn't that greedy. But hell... having to buy back UI elements when I already BOUGHT the damned game (digital collector, mind you)... no way. EA and Bioware can die in hell.That's where you see that GW2's cash shop model is one of the best of the market for the player.Well......I knew about TOR's selling UI functionality. I though tthat was a bit over the top TBH, but OK, I get it, it's a F2P game they have to make money somehow....But to hear that those who bought the box and that it doesn't include the UI elements. I mean HOLY ****!!!!!!That's unacceptable. I had almost bought TOR too. I tried the F2P version and it was fun. But I was put off by the "Here's your measly little reward, but had you subscribed, your reward would have been this" Type of hard sell. But your stroy.....that's just .......wow!I know, I couldn't understand how this is considered in anyway acceptable either. For some reason I went back to the game after it turned F2P and subscribed, and then discovered I still had to pay rl cash to expand inventories, bank slots, to open up lower level vehicles etc, things that simply should be included within a subscription.
It is quite a horrible F2P model they have at SWTOR.
If you are a subscriber, and are unlocking UI elements and the like, then you've done something wrong.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard Originally posted by lizardbonesIf you are a subscriber, and are unlocking UI elements and the like, then you've done something wrong.
Sorry, I was a purchaser of the collector box, a subscriber for 6+ months, and when I tried to come back to have a look after the move to F2P, I missed all my hotbars except 2, couldn't hide my head/cloack, couldn't display my rightfully owned title, etc... everything was gone. And I pre-ordered the fucking game, paying the price for a special edition of it.
That is something I do NOT accept.
You got what you paid for. If you come back to the game and pay nothing, you are also getting what you pay for.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
This game wasn't the special cookie everyone claimed it was. It didn't buck the trend. It wasn't the rose in the desert. It was just an another MMO that followed the same trend of all MMOs save WoW and Eve. It had a lot of hype and interest at launch, and it dropped significantly a couple of months later and kept declining. What the fanboys claimed and shouted at for years on every forum and message board was wrong.
An expansion might boost interest a little bit but it will go downhill again. People can make excuses all they want, and give reasons for it, but those are just the cold hard facts.
Originally posted by GeezerGamerBut that's just it. Expectations are a huge part of what determines success or failure. SWTOR had much higer expectations than FF14's reboot. As I recall, and please correct me if I am wrong. FF14 would consider themselves successful to have ended up with 250K subs, where SWTOR said something to the effect of needing half a mil to just to maintain status quo.
Since we talk about SW:TOR (for a change), I definitely don't think that game is a failure. It didn't meet the expectations... of the publisher (greedy EA) who expected several million staying subscribers. I played it a long time, and I enjoyed it a lot. The combat is as reactive as GW2 or WoW (I mean "press the key, and you see it on the screen"), the story lines weren't that bad either. The end game was a grind, but so is WoW, in a different way, SW:TOR just lacks the many years WoW had to add more end game activities - and so does GW2 by the way. I really hope they'll add the planned guild housing to GW2, for instance.What killed SW:TOR for me is the utterly greedy cash shop.I mean, I have pre-ordered SW:TOR, and I've paid many months of subscriptions too. So for me, it's a "B2P" game, not " F2P" game. If EA had respected their founders, we would not have to buy back UI elements, yes, hotbars, the ability to display your title or your guild name, the ability to turn of your cloak or helmet, and many others. We fucking bought the game way before it was free to play. Even Turbine with LOTRO wasn't that greedy. But hell... having to buy back UI elements when I already BOUGHT the damned game (digital collector, mind you)... no way. EA and Bioware can die in hell.That's where you see that GW2's cash shop model is one of the best of the market for the player.
Well......I knew about TOR's selling UI functionality. I though tthat was a bit over the top TBH, but OK, I get it, it's a F2P game they have to make money somehow....But to hear that those who bought the box and that it doesn't include the UI elements. I mean HOLY ****!!!!!!That's unacceptable. I had almost bought TOR too. I tried the F2P version and it was fun. But I was put off by the "Here's your measly little reward, but had you subscribed, your reward would have been this" Type of hard sell. But your stroy.....that's just .......wow!
I know, I couldn't understand how this is considered in anyway acceptable either. For some reason I went back to the game after it turned F2P and subscribed, and then discovered I still had to pay rl cash to expand inventories, bank slots, to open up lower level vehicles etc, things that simply should be included within a subscription.
It is quite a horrible F2P model they have at SWTOR.
If you are a subscriber, and are unlocking UI elements and the like, then you've done something wrong.
I did not say anything about the UI did I? How about you try responding to the actual comment rather than creating something in your head to respond to. Honestly, people on these forums will literally create an argument out of thin air.
I did not say anything about the UI did I? How about you try responding to the actual comment rather than creating something in your head to respond to. Honestly, people on these forums will literally create an argument out of thin air.
Right because the inventory and bank modules aren't considered part of the UI. They're a mysterious part of SWTOR that no one's been able to categorize yet. They're beyond categorization!
Originally posted by LittleBoot Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by LittleBootOriginally posted by GeezerGamerOriginally posted by Jean-Luc_PicardOriginally posted by GeezerGamerBut that's just it. Expectations are a huge part of what determines success or failure. SWTOR had much higer expectations than FF14's reboot. As I recall, and please correct me if I am wrong. FF14 would consider themselves successful to have ended up with 250K subs, where SWTOR said something to the effect of needing half a mil to just to maintain status quo.
Since we talk about SW:TOR (for a change), I definitely don't think that game is a failure. It didn't meet the expectations... of the publisher (greedy EA) who expected several million staying subscribers. I played it a long time, and I enjoyed it a lot. The combat is as reactive as GW2 or WoW (I mean "press the key, and you see it on the screen"), the story lines weren't that bad either. The end game was a grind, but so is WoW, in a different way, SW:TOR just lacks the many years WoW had to add more end game activities - and so does GW2 by the way. I really hope they'll add the planned guild housing to GW2, for instance.What killed SW:TOR for me is the utterly greedy cash shop.I mean, I have pre-ordered SW:TOR, and I've paid many months of subscriptions too. So for me, it's a "B2P" game, not " F2P" game. If EA had respected their founders, we would not have to buy back UI elements, yes, hotbars, the ability to display your title or your guild name, the ability to turn of your cloak or helmet, and many others. We fucking bought the game way before it was free to play. Even Turbine with LOTRO wasn't that greedy. But hell... having to buy back UI elements when I already BOUGHT the damned game (digital collector, mind you)... no way. EA and Bioware can die in hell.That's where you see that GW2's cash shop model is one of the best of the market for the player.Well......I knew about TOR's selling UI functionality. I though tthat was a bit over the top TBH, but OK, I get it, it's a F2P game they have to make money somehow....But to hear that those who bought the box and that it doesn't include the UI elements. I mean HOLY ****!!!!!!That's unacceptable. I had almost bought TOR too. I tried the F2P version and it was fun. But I was put off by the "Here's your measly little reward, but had you subscribed, your reward would have been this" Type of hard sell. But your stroy.....that's just .......wow!I know, I couldn't understand how this is considered in anyway acceptable either. For some reason I went back to the game after it turned F2P and subscribed, and then discovered I still had to pay rl cash to expand inventories, bank slots, to open up lower level vehicles etc, things that simply should be included within a subscription. It is quite a horrible F2P model they have at SWTOR.If you are a subscriber, and are unlocking UI elements and the like, then you've done something wrong.I did not say anything about the UI did I? How about you try responding to the actual comment rather than creating something in your head to respond to. Honestly, people on these forums will literally create an argument out of thin air.
You're still doing something wrong. You have the option to expand that stuff with cash, or, like every other MMORPG, ever with in game money.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by fantasyfreak112 It fell off because you never actually progress, the game just tries to make you think you're progressing. The button spamming playstyle doesn't help either.
the game fails for you when you are obsessed and addicted to progression and play 23/7.
Play GW2 when you feel like and it's one of the best f2p mmo's out there.
An MMO without progression is just a game with really bad gameplay.
Originally posted by fantasyfreak112 It fell off because you never actually progress, the game just tries to make you think you're progressing. The button spamming playstyle doesn't help either.
the game fails for you when you are obsessed and addicted to progression and play 23/7.
Play GW2 when you feel like and it's one of the best f2p mmo's out there.
An MMO without progression is just a game with really bad gameplay.
Agreed, also @Muke, it's not a "F2P" mmo, it is a B2P MMO. Lastly, just because something is "Free to play" doesn't make it good. That's like saying paper napkins from the bathroom of a 7/11 are the best because you got them for free.
Saying GW2 is the "Best free to play MMO", aside from the fact it isn't Free, isn't saying much at all considering 99% of F2P MMOs are worthless attention-cash-grabbers only designed to last a couple months.
I'd much rather pay $2 for the roll of quality paper towels.
Originally posted by Draemos Originally posted by MukeOriginally posted by fantasyfreak112It fell off because you never actually progress, the game just tries to make you think you're progressing. The button spamming playstyle doesn't help either.
the game fails for you when you are obsessed and addicted to progression and play 23/7.Play GW2 when you feel like and it's one of the best f2p mmo's out there.
An MMO without progression is just a game with really bad gameplay.
Except GW2 has progression.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Comments
you know you need karma for W3 gear, need karma for legendary, karma can be used to buy tools for gathering, karma can be used to get some golbs of ectosplasm, karma is as useless as money in any MMO.
plus I find it funny GW2 have more players playing then most games out there and no one keep trying to prove why they game falied,
also one little side note the gems gold conversion you do it if you want you can choose to farm money or pay gems so you sell it for gold, that is one way to keep gold sellers out, but fools will be folls and some people don't matter what will pay gold sellers to get a fake sense of edge and in process damage the game they liked so much
Most of the times, the "short comings" end up as being "it is different from WoW".
Questing, as it is done in WoW has what I perceive as problems, some of them that GW2 change for the better, although it is possible to improve on traditional questing.
First, questing in WoW is done by text and then it requires imagination from my part to actual believe the text I've read is depicted in the world.
For example, in WoW I talk to the NPC and he say that those orcs are raiding his farm, but in the world what I see is orcs standing. they were standing there (most often doing nothing) before I talked to the NPC and they will be standing there after I leave (also doing nothing).
In GW2 I see the centaurs coming around that cliff or that bush (sometimes it is badly done and I can see them materialize out of thin air) and they start setting the farm on fire. I kill the centaurs, they will be gone (they will come back again and again, but they are gone for a while). Also the it is voice acted and that is personal preference.
I also get credit for killing the centaurs even if I didn't talk to the NPC (some GW2 DE require you to talk to the NPC to start the caravan or something of the sort) beforehand while in WoW I might have killed a 1000 orcs "raiding" the farm before talked to the NPC but those don't count, I still need to go and kill another 10 orcs.
Also in GW2 my friend and I can do that DE event no problem while in WoW my friend might have already done the quest or he might have to do 2 or 3 pre requisite quests so I need to wait for him.
There is also all the quest journal managing that just does not exist in GW2.
While it is true quest pin point upgrades (if I want to be mean I can call it hand holding), the truth is that level 30 quest as no value to me if I'm level 60, while the DE still rewards me.
More, the Heart Vendors have levels and you can easily track their levels on the map so you can see what kind of gear you should be using (in case gear levels isn't enough
).
Because you see, the leveling experience is based on Personal Story, Hearts and Dynamic Events - a player doing those will fing appropriate gear via the Personal Story and Hearts, and hearts will serve as general directions to some of the Events.
EDIT: I was typing this post for a while before I've seen your edit. I'm keeping it because it is a good example of how people decide to point at some aspects ignoring other GW2 differences, in this case that the leveling system is composed of 3 pillars (DEs, Hearts, Personal Story) versus quests.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
WoW has made a lot of changes in this area. New content, as well as revamped older content, is not like it used to be. With Phasing and such, You see the Gnolls fighting with Sentinal Hill guards now. And after you complete the story line, the zone changes permanently.
Orcs are actively attacking Astranaar when you level through, you have to help defend the town and when it's over, you have helped to permanently fend off the attackers.
WoW isn't at all what people remember it to be anymore.
Not all it is better, but it's evolved. and a lot of it is pretty good.
This is still a PITA in WoW. Especially on a busy server. Although, there are a lot of named mobs now where you get credit for participating in the kill regardless of who tagged 1st. Boss mobs, Quest mobs, Rare elites in certain zones allow anyone to tag a hit on the mob as long as it's still aive and you register a hit, you are good.
This is a valid point.
I never was put off by this, but yeah, OK.
But there are level 60 quests with rewards for you that you should be doing.
WoW has implemented automated questing. It's not 100% hands free like Hearts, you still have to click the accept/complete buttons, but you don't have to always go back and forth to the NPCs. It's limited, there are a few of these, the game needs more TBH, but they do exist.
I never found the rewards from the personal story to be adequate.
You have some valid points. Some I agreed with more than others.
Based on this description as well as many many others, people are critcizing WoW based on outdated information of how WoW used to be and not how it's changed.
Trust me. I had a difficult time putting past my impression of "Pandyland"
But I did. What I found was an enjoyable experience. And one that was overall quite different than it used to be.
Now granted. I've been levling in a fully twinked and enchanted set of heirloom gear. But so what? It's fun that way.
How fast and how far can I push it?
That statement right there applies to roughly 95% of all comments made about WoW on mmorpg.com :-)
WoW is also in the process of testing level scaling to older content (it will be optional because way more people don't want it than those that do) for WoD. I can totally see people here saying "GW2 does it and WoW does not" looong after its gone live....this very thread has many instances like that so far. I'm not even sure why GW2 defenders are bringing up wow to begin with anyway. Every critisim of GW2 gets turned into "ya well, it does XXXX better than WoW". I hope we all realise WoW is not the only other MMO on the market.
The thing with the phasing is that it makes it even more difficult to play with your friends.
I played a bit of WoW around cataclysm.
I can also say much of the information about GW2 that detractors and critics are spewing is out dated or out right wrong.
That is the thing about MMORPGs - they keep evolving. that is why I don't go to WoW forums talk about stuff I don't know. I'm sure many GW2 players go talk crap in other games forums, like many players that never played GW2 or played it 1 year ago come here talking crap.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
It is the MMO that has shaped expectations for games in this genre like no other, and it's these expectations, not a specific game, that all new MMOs are measured against.
GW2 isn't perfect, I quit it due to time constraints even though I was still enjoying it immensely last year, but things like the fractals, lack of ways to stand out with your character, the world transfers that destroyed server pride were big detractors to the game.
As well as my personal petpeeve being the retarded stealth mechanics, but ah well.
To the OP and people complaining about "linear" questing in GW2 though: you're simply doing it wrong, maybe you should look into changing your own faulty mindset first before complaining.
I leveled 2 80's and kept going back to lower level zones with my main to help mates, never once did I feel forced to follow a linear path, it's simply up to you.
Sure, you could just stick to the human area as a human and go from the first village to the next level place and force yourself to complete one thing at a time, then you are choosing to follow a line.
Or you could do like I did and don't give a flying frak where you're going, you could take off in a random direction and actually be surprised by the events you see, take your human to any other starter area and do the same, be challenged by mobs that are slightly above you, change your mindset.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
I should have been clear.
I should not have implied that everyone in these forums bashes WoW based on 3+ year old memories of why they quit. In fact, I was more than aware of your prior posts in this same thread stating how you currently play WoW.
While I think they have made some good strides. I cannot deny that WoW is still much more linear than it should be. In fact, I think, in that regard alone, WoW may have actually taken some very large strides backwards from Vanilla and TBC.
I remember back in TBC, my primary toon was a hunter. But I wanted to have a Paladin ready to go at the launch of Wrath. My brother wanted a War. So, we decided to duo level alts. While everyone else was finishing their last hurahs in TBC, we started newbs.
It was a fun experience, but I'll tell you what. I'd never do that again, We had to plot out our leveling sessions on a Calendar. We HAD to keep our quests synchronized. If one of us wasn't online, we couldn't really do anything other than maybe work on professions.
That said, there are alternatives now. I'm on a new realm leveling a new Paladin again. But this time, I have decided to skip most of the quest hub grind. I've done 20 levels in the past 3 evenings doing nothing but dungeon LFG. I've never leveled this way in WoW before, I am going to take it as far as I can go. Hopefully all the way to 90. Depending on how this works in the Pandaria expansion. It could serve as a viable alternative to the linear experience.
I think that once I have this paladin at 90, and geared out to at least 500 (easy enough now) and have 600 in all his professions, I will park it and break from WoW and go back to GW2 until WoD.
Not sure yet.
EDIT:
OK, and looking back, I think I've taken this thread off track so, I guess I'm done posting about WoW here....unless it applies to the OP.
I dont understand how this game "Fell off".
Servers are still packed and the game is critically acclaimed.
By falling off do you mean its not WoW with 7+ Million players?
Honestly to me GW2 was a raging success. Maybe your expectations were too high?
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
Thats the mentality of most sadly. SWTOR was also a raging success (500k subs, million active players/month, top 3 revenu generating game for EA), but because its expectations were higher, most people throw that around when calling it a faileur.
But that's just it. Expectations are a huge part of what determines success or failure. SWTOR had much higer expectations than FF14's reboot. As I recall, and please correct me if I am wrong. FF14 would consider themselves successful to have ended up with 250K subs, where SWTOR said something to the effect of needing half a mil to just to maintain status quo.
And another factor that people need to remember especially with GW2, is that just maintaining packed servers is not the only success criteria that ANET and NCSOFT are using. GW2 could see a doubling or more of consistent concurrent active players but if fewer and fewer people are buying gems, there is going to be a problem. But we would never see it. Likewise, GW2 could suddenly lose 2/3 to 3/4 of it's active player base and yet if those who remain increase their gem purchases, that would still be a good thing for the publishers.
This is going quite off topic quite a bit, so ill end with this: Yes, the expectations failed spectacularly, but the game itself did not. The game itself is quite successfull compared to all other MMOs ever released.
Well......
I knew about TOR's selling UI functionality. I though tthat was a bit over the top TBH, but OK, I get it, it's a F2P game they have to make money somehow....
But to hear that those who bought the box and that it doesn't include the UI elements. I mean HOLY ****!!!!!!
That's unacceptable. I had almost bought TOR too. I tried the F2P version and it was fun. But I was put off by the "Here's your measly little reward, but had you subscribed, your reward would have been this" Type of hard sell. But your stroy.....that's just .......wow!
I know, I couldn't understand how this is considered in anyway acceptable either. For some reason I went back to the game after it turned F2P and subscribed, and then discovered I still had to pay rl cash to expand inventories, bank slots, to open up lower level vehicles etc, things that simply should be included within a subscription.
It is quite a horrible F2P model they have at SWTOR.
No wonder SWTOR gets a bad rap. People go on game forums and lie about it outright.
My youtube MMO gaming channel
Well...... I knew about TOR's selling UI functionality. I though tthat was a bit over the top TBH, but OK, I get it, it's a F2P game they have to make money somehow.... But to hear that those who bought the box and that it doesn't include the UI elements. I mean HOLY ****!!!!!! That's unacceptable. I had almost bought TOR too. I tried the F2P version and it was fun. But I was put off by the "Here's your measly little reward, but had you subscribed, your reward would have been this" Type of hard sell. But your stroy.....that's just .......wow!
I know, I couldn't understand how this is considered in anyway acceptable either. For some reason I went back to the game after it turned F2P and subscribed, and then discovered I still had to pay rl cash to expand inventories, bank slots, to open up lower level vehicles etc, things that simply should be included within a subscription.
It is quite a horrible F2P model they have at SWTOR.
If you are a subscriber, and are unlocking UI elements and the like, then you've done something wrong.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
That is something I do NOT accept.
You got what you paid for. If you come back to the game and pay nothing, you are also getting what you pay for.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
This game wasn't the special cookie everyone claimed it was. It didn't buck the trend. It wasn't the rose in the desert. It was just an another MMO that followed the same trend of all MMOs save WoW and Eve. It had a lot of hype and interest at launch, and it dropped significantly a couple of months later and kept declining. What the fanboys claimed and shouted at for years on every forum and message board was wrong.
An expansion might boost interest a little bit but it will go downhill again. People can make excuses all they want, and give reasons for it, but those are just the cold hard facts.
SWTOR, GW2, Rift, Warhammer Onilne, FFXIV
I did not say anything about the UI did I? How about you try responding to the actual comment rather than creating something in your head to respond to. Honestly, people on these forums will literally create an argument out of thin air.
Right because the inventory and bank modules aren't considered part of the UI. They're a mysterious part of SWTOR that no one's been able to categorize yet. They're beyond categorization!
My youtube MMO gaming channel
Well...... I knew about TOR's selling UI functionality. I though tthat was a bit over the top TBH, but OK, I get it, it's a F2P game they have to make money somehow.... But to hear that those who bought the box and that it doesn't include the UI elements. I mean HOLY ****!!!!!! That's unacceptable. I had almost bought TOR too. I tried the F2P version and it was fun. But I was put off by the "Here's your measly little reward, but had you subscribed, your reward would have been this" Type of hard sell. But your stroy.....that's just .......wow!
I know, I couldn't understand how this is considered in anyway acceptable either. For some reason I went back to the game after it turned F2P and subscribed, and then discovered I still had to pay rl cash to expand inventories, bank slots, to open up lower level vehicles etc, things that simply should be included within a subscription. It is quite a horrible F2P model they have at SWTOR.
If you are a subscriber, and are unlocking UI elements and the like, then you've done something wrong.
I did not say anything about the UI did I? How about you try responding to the actual comment rather than creating something in your head to respond to. Honestly, people on these forums will literally create an argument out of thin air.
You're still doing something wrong. You have the option to expand that stuff with cash, or, like every other MMORPG, ever with in game money.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
An MMO without progression is just a game with really bad gameplay.
Agreed, also @Muke, it's not a "F2P" mmo, it is a B2P MMO. Lastly, just because something is "Free to play" doesn't make it good. That's like saying paper napkins from the bathroom of a 7/11 are the best because you got them for free.
Saying GW2 is the "Best free to play MMO", aside from the fact it isn't Free, isn't saying much at all considering 99% of F2P MMOs are worthless attention-cash-grabbers only designed to last a couple months.
I'd much rather pay $2 for the roll of quality paper towels.
An MMO without progression is just a game with really bad gameplay.
Except GW2 has progression.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.