I am not going to argue with your post. But the fact is, Between the 2 combat systems, I don't think either one particularly stands out and deeper than the other. But as is the case in my earlier post. The combat systems are apples and oranges. And the earlier video that was posted cherry picked issues if not straight up made up issues where none really existed in order to make a "point".
We can debate the depth of combat systems all day and still end up agreeing to disagree. Or maybe agree, who knows.
Personally, I enjoy both systems, but they are fundamentally different and really cannot be compared in an apples to apples context.
The video is pretty accurate and clearly depicts an image of WoW combat I remember and with WoW being F2P up to level 20 isn't hard to see for yourself.
Some people have no problem with that - after all games do not have to be realistic, just fun and we are simply talking about degrees of realism.
But that WoW video wouldn't seem bad if there was no GW2 running side by side.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
It's already been explained to you that the video does not capture real WoW combat, it is low level auto attacking. Most of WoW isn't about auto attacking. Also I have NEVER in my years playing WoW shot something at 180 degrees, you could only do that if you were trying to create an unrealistic scenario which exploited your own lag + poor pathing of mobs. You simply can't auto attack 180 degrees in pvp. You would need to spin your character 180 degrees and then flick him back to whatever direction you wanted. Which all good pvpers know how to do. I hit targets 5 ft away in gw2 as well, what does that say about gw2 if those are your standards?
Actually it does capture WoW's combat. The video is right there. Watch it again. It's not meant to showcase rotations, but to show how awful the combat system is. Whether or not it's low-level, or high-level, it's still the using the same combat mechanics. And you're right, i didn't mean 180, but 90 degrees. I got my degrees wrong. Any hunter who's been playing since release will confirm this. It's how they kite. I'm highly skeptical of your claim that you can hit targets in melee range, in GW2, as portrayed in this video.
At top level PvE and PvP, wow is reactive, there is no rotation you can follow an entire fight, if you want to be efficient. Anyone that has played at top level PvE and PvP in WoW knows that you have to "react with precision" in WoW. Combo fields and finishers are no different than just using a few different abilities in WoW that synergize well. It's like putting sunder armor up and then using an attack that benefits from sunder armor, WOW what a combo field!
There are set rotations, especially for pve and boss fights. All those max-dps websites confirm this. Just because there is a slight deviation, or variance, from it, doesn't mean that WoW is on the same level as GW2, or other newer MMOs. The only real complexity of reactive abilities that are seriously used, are by tanks (and some raid mechanics), so they don't die in 1-2 hits. PvP is different of course. It takes more skill to react and survive, with shields and heals, cleanses, etc..
What you say about WoW cc is just a grossly inexperienced opinion.
No, it's not. CC in WoW is longer. Sap, stuns, immobilize, fears, polymorphs, etc.. Do i really need to go on? Some will last anywhere from 5 seconds, or until damage takes place, which could last up to 30 seconds or longer. That's why there are trinkets, and racials, to break free. It's a fact, not an opinion.
Compare GW2 to an esport fps game, or even an mmo with good pvp, where you have to factor in much deeper strategy, if you want to go to extremes. GW2 is not twitchier than WoW. Sorry to burst your bubble, there are many spells in WoW that are off of the gcd, and the only reason you feel gw2 is more twitchy is because you've been fooled by the movement system, moving fast =! twitchy. Maybe to casuals it is...
How could you even claim this? I swear, you didn't even watch the video, or even play GW2. In WoW, movement isn't as important, because it doesn't matter if you move sideways, the projectile from the opponent is still going to hit you. They go through walls and objects. The only way to be safe from an incoming projectile, is to be out-of-range, or be in certain areas where line-of-sight works (this is how it is in GW2). I already acknowledged that WoW has some skills that are off the GCD, but in the overall scheme of things, it's very few to make a difference, when compared to GW2. That's the whole point of the argument. Skills are more flexible to use in GW2,without a GCD.
Many of WoW's skills can be wasted if you don't use them correctly, with and without targets.
Really? Which ones? Heals, shield bubbles, armor reduction buffs, debuffs, thunderclap, and other AOE effects? None which actually give direct damage to targets. It's not possible to fire a bow, or swing a sword, without a target. That's the point of the video.
You very obviously have no experience with high skill level wow play, if you did you would see just how completely absurd that video is. It would be like someone making an anti-gw2 video and criticizing the game purely on exaggerated experiences in the starter areas.
It's irrelevant if it's in the starter area, or not. The basic combat system is displayed, and it doesn't change at max-level. The only thing that changes, is the acquisition of new skills, which will still follow the combat mechanics of the physics in the starter area.
Hell GW2 combat doesn't even have anything in it that compares to a TBC mage shatter combo mechanically...
A mage is still a mage, that follows a rotation and obeys the restrictions set by WoW's engine; projectile system, cooldowns, targets and range, etc. Oh, and the elementalist class says hello. It's one of the more complex classes in the game, because you need to switch between 4 attunements to debuff, immobilize, heal, combos, etc, to be efficient..
I am not going to argue with your post. But the fact is, Between the 2 combat systems, I don't think either one particularly stands out and deeper than the other. But as is the case in my earlier post. The combat systems are apples and oranges. And the earlier video that was posted cherry picked issues if not straight up made up issues where none really existed in order to make a "point".
We can debate the depth of combat systems all day and still end up agreeing to disagree. Or maybe agree, who knows.
Personally, I enjoy both systems, but they are fundamentally different and really cannot be compared in an apples to apples context.
Actually, they can be compared. They aren't fundamentally different. They are only different in the way they are programmed.
Their physics can be compared, and contrasted, to show which is more realistic, fun, or skilled. Melee and projectiles being the main factors of both systems, as it pertains to combat. So yes, apples and apples. Yummy.
I am not going to argue with your post. But the fact is, Between the 2 combat systems, I don't think either one particularly stands out and deeper than the other. But as is the case in my earlier post. The combat systems are apples and oranges. And the earlier video that was posted cherry picked issues if not straight up made up issues where none really existed in order to make a "point".
We can debate the depth of combat systems all day and still end up agreeing to disagree. Or maybe agree, who knows.
Personally, I enjoy both systems, but they are fundamentally different and really cannot be compared in an apples to apples context.
Actually, they can be compared. They aren't fundamentally different. They are only different in the way they are programmed.
Their physics can be compared, and contrasted, to show which is more realistic, fun, or skilled. Melee and projectiles being the main factors of both systems, as it pertains to combat. So yes, apples and apples. Yummy.
If you say so......
The context of the video is all wrong. It's clear, what the intent of the video's creator is and what he's trying to do. It does not objectively portray the two combat systems at their best, in ways the players would be using them, it does not present both good and bad with both systems. It's meant to make one system look bad and it's blatantly obvious to players who are looking for a more objective review. I have seen many forum posts where players have reported issues with GW2 regarding some of those very mechanics. Problems with targeting in GW2. Where is mention of that? At the very least, the video's creator could at least acknowledge the issue and then prove or disprove said issue. But no, that's not the intent of the video. It hold ZERO credibility. As I said before, the issues in that video don't present them in proper context.
WoW's combat math is done server-side and happens before the animations. If the hit is registered, it HAS to hit. And yet Animation lock was also reported in GW2. I've seen forum posts on it anyway. SO where is the mention of that? That video tries to show bad melee ranges, but in WoW PVP, kiting is part of the strategies. But with narrower combat hit boxes, this will become a joke for ranged vs. melee. Also something I've read about as an issue in GW2.
So why aren't these issues in GW2 at least mentioned and then disproved if they really aren't issues? That's what I'd expect from a video that was truly trying to analyze the 2 combat systems.
The context of the video is all wrong. It's clear, what the intent of the video's creator is and what he's trying to do. It does not objectively portray the two combat systems at their best, in ways the players would be using them, it does not present both good and bad with both systems. It's meant to make one system look bad and it's blatantly obvious to players who are looking for a more objective review. I have seen many forum posts where players have reported issues with GW2 regarding some of those very mechanics. Problems with targeting in GW2. Where is mention of that? At the very least, the video's creator could at least acknowledge the issue and then prove or disprove said issue. But no, that's not the intent of the video. It hold ZERO credibility. As I said before, the issues in that video don't present them in proper context.
WoW's combat math is done server-side and happens before the animations. If the hit is registered, it HAS to hit. And yet Animation lock was also reported in GW2. I've seen forum posts on it anyway. SO where is the mention of that? That video tries to show bad melee ranges, but in WoW PVP, kiting is part of the strategies. But with narrower combat hit boxes, this will become a joke for ranged vs. melee. Also something I've read about as an issue in GW2.
So why aren't these issues in GW2 at least mentioned and then disproved if they really aren't issues? That's what I'd expect from a video that was truly trying to analyze the 2 combat systems.
What issues in GW2 with combat are you talking about? You can't just say "I heard there are issues, why doesn't anyone talk about them?", you need to be specific. Animation lock? What is that? There are a few spells that root you temporarily while channeling, is that what you mean? Hit boxes have also never been an issue in GW2 either, so not sure what you mean there.
Also keep in mind you can't disprove a negative. If you're claiming there are issues, you need to provide the issue and your evidence of a problem... you can't make a claim and expect others to disprove it when you've offered nothing to disprove.
I'm farming Fractals for 6 months 38 46 daily every day sick and tired never got a FUCKING weapon skin . Today loged in the game for 5 min and logged out.
Bought all materials for ascensed armor and I wait i wait because I need 38 days to craft all damask crap for armor game became so boring they wanted to make other elementalist traits more usefull added nothing good all classes most got nice new skill elems got and blast that can Miss. Promised rewarding Fractals my necro with 4 15 slog bag is full of those rings ...face palm I can't even salvage them I guess I will quit so tired of this game and its hidden FARM GRIND.
PVP is a joke some time you get a good team some time a completly retarded team .....WvW boring seasons dual teaming realy game is so fucked up
What issues in GW2 with combat are you talking about? You can't just say "I heard there are issues, why doesn't anyone talk about them?", you need to be specific. Animation lock? What is that? There are a few spells that root you temporarily while channeling, is that what you mean? Hit boxes have also never been an issue in GW2 either, so not sure what you mean there.
Also keep in mind you can't disprove a negative. If you're claiming there are issues, you need to provide the issue and your evidence of a problem... you can't make a claim and expect others to disprove it when you've offered nothing to disprove.
You are moving away from the point. It's not about specific issues in GW2. I am going based on memory of things I have read in the past. I really don't care what issues you want to identify. Unless you feel that GW2 combat is perfect and flawless. I am not here to point out issues in GW2. My point is that if you identify issues in one system and totally ignore issues in the other, you have a non objective review. That's what I am discussing here, not animation locks or targeting issues.
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard I just want to add that there's a very important point in GW2... if you think you don't like the gameplay, try a drastically different class. Each class has very different mechanics, and hell, if (e.g.) you don't like guardian, maybe you'll love warrior... or if you don't like ranger, maybe you'll love necromancer?
SO..MUCH....KITTENS...THIS!
I love my Warrior & Necro, hate my Ranger and still mastering guardian and ele. So really... really try new classes, AND STILL, depending on the build, your whole fighting mechanics may change.
now: GW2 (11 80s). Dark Souls 2. future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord. "Bro, do your even fractal?" Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard I just want to add that there's a very important point in GW2... if you think you don't like the gameplay, try a drastically different class. Each class has very different mechanics, and hell, if (e.g.) you don't like guardian, maybe you'll love warrior... or if you don't like ranger, maybe you'll love necromancer?
May not even need to re roll a new class. Many classes, just need a different gear set and supporting build and it's like a whole new class. Mesmers, Thieves and Necros are probably the top classes for effective variety in differing play styles within the same class.
Oddly the Engineer is my most advanced character. Back when Ascended gear was limited to Back, rings and neck, I was 5AR short of the cap on my Engineer.
But I only ever played one build. Nades so with that said, it's hard for me to speak to the different builds for the class if I never tried them.
Although I did try a dual pistol build briefly, but that kinda failed hard......For me anyway.
I'm about to rant as someone who actually likes the game and am leveling to max currently 65 on a few toons.
Quests are about as innovative as WoW's graphics are. They didn't change anything other than you don't go to a hub before the quest start. Now you kill an unnumbered amount of people about 20-30 per heart I'd say; or the innovative part... you throw water on a cabbage or something... now you won't get loot or exp from doing that but you can technically complete the quest that way. As an example of course as there are over a hundred rehashed things to do.
and point B on the same subject... all they do are rehash the same quests from level 1-80... it's the same crap over and over and over... cabbage turns to pumpkin... ogre turns to bandit; On top of being one of the lowest least gratifying leveling experiences I've ever experienced.
Combat is not innovative and barely skill based... I mean BARELY any improvement over the vintage style of spam. Movement plays a role in but I've seen my fair share of attacks do 180 degree curves to hit me even though I roll. It's for the most part the vintage system without the ability to stand face to face with the enemy without taking substantially more damage; mostly noticed against veterans or such.
Removing the trinity was a complete joke because the only thing they removed... was the healer. That's it... you still build tanky to tank champions for groups. Only difference is you die because there aren't powerful ally heals on low cd. Bravo... So innovative.
I won't even get into PvP although there's plenty negative I could say I'll wait until I experience all aspects of it at 80.
Sorry I'm raging time to get back to leveling.
If you really don't know how to go off the beaten path then you haven't really played GW2. Those heart quests are just side attractions, the real gems are in the exploration.
It's already been explained to you that the video does not capture real WoW combat, it is low level auto attacking. Most of WoW isn't about auto attacking. Also I have NEVER in my years playing WoW shot something at 180 degrees, you could only do that if you were trying to create an unrealistic scenario which exploited your own lag + poor pathing of mobs. You simply can't auto attack 180 degrees in pvp. You would need to spin your character 180 degrees and then flick him back to whatever direction you wanted. Which all good pvpers know how to do. I hit targets 5 ft away in gw2 as well, what does that say about gw2 if those are your standards?
Actually it does capture WoW's combat. The video is right there. Watch it again. It's not meant to showcase rotations, but to show how awful the combat system is. Whether or not it's low-level, or high-level, it's still the using the same combat mechanics. And you're right, i didn't mean 180, but 90 degrees. I got my degrees wrong. Any hunter who's been playing since release will confirm this. It's how they kite. I'm highly skeptical of your claim that you can hit targets in melee range, in GW2, as portrayed in this video.
At top level PvE and PvP, wow is reactive, there is no rotation you can follow an entire fight, if you want to be efficient. Anyone that has played at top level PvE and PvP in WoW knows that you have to "react with precision" in WoW. Combo fields and finishers are no different than just using a few different abilities in WoW that synergize well. It's like putting sunder armor up and then using an attack that benefits from sunder armor, WOW what a combo field!
There are set rotations, especially for pve and boss fights. All those max-dps websites confirm this. Just because there is a slight deviation, or variance, from it, doesn't mean that WoW is on the same level as GW2, or other newer MMOs. The only real complexity of reactive abilities that are seriously used, are by tanks (and some raid mechanics), so they don't die in 1-2 hits. PvP is different of course. It takes more skill to react and survive, with shields and heals, cleanses, etc..
What you say about WoW cc is just a grossly inexperienced opinion.
No, it's not. CC in WoW is longer. Sap, stuns, immobilize, fears, polymorphs, etc.. Do i really need to go on? Some will last anywhere from 5 seconds, or until damage takes place, which could last up to 30 seconds or longer. That's why there are trinkets, and racials, to break free. It's a fact, not an opinion.
Compare GW2 to an esport fps game, or even an mmo with good pvp, where you have to factor in much deeper strategy, if you want to go to extremes. GW2 is not twitchier than WoW. Sorry to burst your bubble, there are many spells in WoW that are off of the gcd, and the only reason you feel gw2 is more twitchy is because you've been fooled by the movement system, moving fast =! twitchy. Maybe to casuals it is...
How could you even claim this? I swear, you didn't even watch the video, or even play GW2. In WoW, movement isn't as important, because it doesn't matter if you move sideways, the projectile from the opponent is still going to hit you. They go through walls and objects. The only way to be safe from an incoming projectile, is to be out-of-range, or be in certain areas where line-of-sight works (this is how it is in GW2). I already acknowledged that WoW has some skills that are off the GCD, but in the overall scheme of things, it's very few to make a difference, when compared to GW2. That's the whole point of the argument. Skills are more flexible to use in GW2,without a GCD.
Many of WoW's skills can be wasted if you don't use them correctly, with and without targets.
Really? Which ones? Heals, shield bubbles, armor reduction buffs, debuffs, thunderclap, and other AOE effects? None which actually give direct damage to targets. It's not possible to fire a bow, or swing a sword, without a target. That's the point of the video.
You very obviously have no experience with high skill level wow play, if you did you would see just how completely absurd that video is. It would be like someone making an anti-gw2 video and criticizing the game purely on exaggerated experiences in the starter areas.
It's irrelevant if it's in the starter area, or not. The basic combat system is displayed, and it doesn't change at max-level. The only thing that changes, is the acquisition of new skills, which will still follow the combat mechanics of the physics in the starter area.
Hell GW2 combat doesn't even have anything in it that compares to a TBC mage shatter combo mechanically...
A mage is still a mage, that follows a rotation and obeys the restrictions set by WoW's engine; projectile system, cooldowns, targets and range, etc. Oh, and the elementalist class says hello. It's one of the more complex classes in the game, because you need to switch between 4 attunements to debuff, immobilize, heal, combos, etc, to be efficient..
So you got your degrees incorrect, well next time make sure you are correct please, because complaining about 90 degree attacks vs 180 degree attacks is quite different.
There are min/max rotations for different encounters, but they are not just something you can do over and over, you have to break your rotations, adjust to different aspects of the fight, and then at times you might start up a rotation again depending on what you want to do. This can be said of any game, there are times you want to maximize your dps, and times you want to do other things, but you can't just sit there and spam the same keys in the same order over and over and do nothing else, you have to break the rotations at times to do other things.
It's actually not a fact at all, there is no CC in WoW that lasts 30 seconds in PvP, not even half that. Please don't state your inaccurate opinions as facts... At this point I almost don't want to take any of the rest of your response seriously, because you know so little about WoW, but i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and continue reading what you have to say.
In WoW movement is important, there are many position based attacks, as well as the fact that you can LoS in WoW, outrange things and of course since you don't know much about WoW, the game mechanics work in a way that when you are attacking a target from behind certain defensive mechanics are nullified. WoW's projectiles only go through walls or objects on certain types of situations, and can sometimes clip the edge of a pillar or terrain based on server-client lag. If a guy is standing directly behind a huge pillar and you are on the other side, you will be Line of sighted. Please actually play the game before commenting that it is one way or the other. I can tell already by what you have claimed that you have not played any high-rated arena, or done any top progression raiding.
It's not possible to auto attack without a target, auto attacks make up very small amount of WoW's damage. It is possible to misfire certain types of spells that fall under any spell category without a target. Sure WoW uses a target system, and has a lot of target-requiring spells, but not ALL of them are, and it has way more skills than GW2, so you get a healthy blend.
Completely untrue, the basic combat mechanics are auto attacking and a small group of newbie skills, WoW classes have tons of abilities at top level play, all with varying mechanics and functions, to say it is like the low level of play is just blatantly ignorant to how the game actually plays. I think you are confusing it with how gw2 is, just because the feel of your character in gw2 is defined very early, doesn't mean in other mmos it holds true. Auto attacking makes up very little of WoW play, and until you get all of your abilities you won't really begin mastering your class. It would be like saying you could define a GW2 class right when you make the character and only use the first 1 hotkey ability they give you.
I'm talking about physical mechanics here. A shatter combo literally took much more skill (no it was not some insane feat of skill though) than anything you can do in gw2.
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by caetftl
Hell GW2 combat doesn't even have anything in it that compares to a TBC mage shatter combo mechanically...
You've obviously never played a Messmer... not to mention the combos possible between different classes, something WoW doesn't have at all.
As an eager player of both games, I can say that the video is spot on and shows real weak points of WoW's combat system.
It's also worth mentionning that both games achieved something very few other MMORPGs manage to achieve... their combat is very responsive, the keyboard/screen coordination is perfect. After playing WoW and/or GW2, it's very hard to play games like LOTRO or Rift with their clunky combat systems.
You aren't an eager player of both games, let's face it... If you were, you would be able to immediately tell how inaccurate that video is, also your posts are almost always completely biased towards gw2, yet you somehow want to add credibility to your statements by claiming you are an eager player of both games.
I've played every class in gw2, when I talk about mechanics I talk about the actual skill to execute something, I come from a professional RTS background and understand mechanics very well (I averaged 300+ apm in my prime). The combos you land in GW2 require similar to mechanics in WoW, but WoW has certain mechanics (like the tbc mage shatter combo) that actually go significantly above anything gw2 has to offer. I am talking about the actual mechanics to execute the combos, not some gameplay mechanic, i'm talking PHYSICAL mechanics.
Dude, you're holding up the ability to cast two spells that have different speeds for when they hit so that you count the passive crit ability twice, as if that's something way more complex than anything you can do in GW2?
Really?
I'd rather not be part of an argument that's entirely preferences, but we could at least stay away from the vague claims and attempts to make one's argument sound valid by touting meaningless veterancy.
And gameplay mechanics are the 'physical' mechanics as they are all the interactive elements that people use to play the game, unless you're making something very strange up here.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
You aren't an eager player of both games, let's face it... If you were, you would be able to immediately tell how inaccurate that video is, also your posts are almost always completely biased towards gw2, yet you somehow want to add credibility to your statements by claiming you are an eager player of both games.
Calling me a liar won't help your already quite damaged credibility. I'm playing WoW right now (alt tabbed while waiting for a guildie), and I don't give a shit if you believe me or not actually. You can look in my post history that there's evidence that I play both games.
I've played every class in gw2,
Maybe I should call you what you called me then... specially considering what you post next. I don't believe you even a second, or you never passed level 10 with many classes.
when I talk about mechanics I talk about the actual skill to execute something, I come from a professional RTS background and understand mechanics very well (I averaged 300+ apm in my prime).
If you think this will impress anyone here... and for your information, RTS are not MMORPGs.
The combos you land in GW2 require similar to mechanics in WoW, but WoW has certain mechanics (like the tbc mage shatter combo) that actually go significantly above anything gw2 has to offer. I am talking about the actual mechanics to execute the combos, not some gameplay mechanic, i'm talking PHYSICAL mechanics.
Pretty much the proof that you don't have a clue about what you're talking about. You, sir, are totally biased. I am not. I like both games. I'm a WoW subscriber with 2 accounts during the last 9 years, and I'm not planning to stop anytime soon. You can count how much money I gave to Blizzard if you want.
MMORPGs are not RTS but that doesn't mean certain elements do not translate to one another, someone that has played the most mechanically demanding genre at the highest level knows what takes mechanical skill and what doesn't. People that can't incorporate elements from one genre into another generally aren't very skilled gamers. It would be like saying you can only use the philosophies from Art of War, for actual warfare.
Would you mind meeting me on wow in europe or NA with your character with your highest arena rating, as some sort of proof that you actually know what it takes to play WoW at a highly skilled level?
Originally posted by fantasyfreak112 It fell off because you never actually progress, the game just tries to make you think you're progressing. The button spamming playstyle doesn't help either.
the game fails for you when you are obsessed and addicted to progression and play 23/7.
Play GW2 when you feel like and it's one of the best f2p mmo's out there.
I know right. Why should people care if their efforts produce results or not. Plenty of people are content mowing their lawn for 2 hours only to find no grass was cut at all. GW2 in a nutshell.
Sure if you are the horse and need that carrot dangling in front of you all the time as you can't make your own content and rely on tiered progression, then GW2 migth not be the game for you and you migth be better off in a land far, far away with elves and trolls, taurens and nasty orcs.
I love it when people use the "you need a carrot on a stick to enjoy a game?" argument to defend the almost complete lack of charecter progression in GW2 (more so at endgame), and try and make the person they are speaking to somehow feel bad and invalidate them. Since when did charecter progressions become synonomous with WoW's tier gear system?....
The answer for the vast majority of MMO players is yes....it would be cool if there was some form of meaningful charecter progression, especially at endgame. There is no shame is saying that you like your charecter becoming stronger or better at certain things over time. Charecter progression in and of itself is the heart of what an MMORPG is. Some do it through constant skill increases/alternate advancement (a la sandboxes such as EVE or AO, or themeparks like EQ2 or AoC), and some do it via gear alone (WoW, Rift, SWTOR). There are many forms of "carrots", some people find certin forms of carrots more enjoyable than others, but the fact reamins that carrots are indeed very fun and keep players playing long term.
Originally posted by reeereee Gw2's leveling system isn't perfect but it's miles ahead of quest grinding. It's amazing that the one thing gw2 did right is at the top of your list of criticisms.
Everything falls , it's just a matter of degree. If a game loses whatever luster it may have had when you started then it's better to look within and see if it's for you than blaming the devs, community or the world for any dislikes you may now have.
PvP is not better than PvE in learning mechanics at endgame in WoW. They can be learned by either styles. If you think it does, then it merely shows your bias towards non-PvPer's. Twitch skills aren't as 'professional' unless the game is based around it, and WoW is not.
As for the GW2/WoW comparison, I have no comment as it is irrelevant and highly based on preference.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Originally posted by reeereee Gw2's leveling system isn't perfect but it's miles ahead of quest grinding. It's amazing that the one thing gw2 did right is at the top of your list of criticisms.
Second that!
I found leveling in GW2 a rewarding experience!
Indeed, in my opinion the best part of GW2.
You choose to roam the world doing tasks/hearts/events? You progress.
You do dungeons, ANY dungeon in ANY mode? You progress.
You choose to gather and craft? You progress.
You choose to just explore? You progress.
You choose to go to a lower level area to help a friend? You progress.
I wish this was true in WoW too. Right now a RL friend of mine is at 68 with his alt monk, and I don't have a character in that level range, so we can't play together, and this sucks. In GW2, it would be possible.
You cant level 1-80 in GW2 just by exploring.
Aside from level scaling to the content of a specific zone (which is a feature WoW is currently testing, so ya), everything you mentioned is also an option in WoW.
In WoW you gain XP (progress) by questing/tasks, you gain XP (progress) by running dungwons (i leveled at least 2 toons to max level thorugh dungeons only back when i played WoW...) you gain XP (progress) by gathering crafting mats, you gain XP (progress) by exploring the world. There are a few people in my guild who leveled max level toons just through archilogy back when Cata came out.
This is not a knock on GW2 at all, but if you are going to compare the 2 games to reflect WoW in a negative light, at least ensure the majority of features you are listing arn't in WoW lol
Comments
The video is pretty accurate and clearly depicts an image of WoW combat I remember and with WoW being F2P up to level 20 isn't hard to see for yourself.
Some people have no problem with that - after all games do not have to be realistic, just fun and we are simply talking about degrees of realism.
But that WoW video wouldn't seem bad if there was no GW2 running side by side.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Actually, they can be compared. They aren't fundamentally different. They are only different in the way they are programmed.
Their physics can be compared, and contrasted, to show which is more realistic, fun, or skilled. Melee and projectiles being the main factors of both systems, as it pertains to combat. So yes, apples and apples. Yummy.
If you say so......
The context of the video is all wrong. It's clear, what the intent of the video's creator is and what he's trying to do. It does not objectively portray the two combat systems at their best, in ways the players would be using them, it does not present both good and bad with both systems. It's meant to make one system look bad and it's blatantly obvious to players who are looking for a more objective review. I have seen many forum posts where players have reported issues with GW2 regarding some of those very mechanics. Problems with targeting in GW2. Where is mention of that? At the very least, the video's creator could at least acknowledge the issue and then prove or disprove said issue. But no, that's not the intent of the video. It hold ZERO credibility. As I said before, the issues in that video don't present them in proper context.
WoW's combat math is done server-side and happens before the animations. If the hit is registered, it HAS to hit. And yet Animation lock was also reported in GW2. I've seen forum posts on it anyway. SO where is the mention of that? That video tries to show bad melee ranges, but in WoW PVP, kiting is part of the strategies. But with narrower combat hit boxes, this will become a joke for ranged vs. melee. Also something I've read about as an issue in GW2.
So why aren't these issues in GW2 at least mentioned and then disproved if they really aren't issues? That's what I'd expect from a video that was truly trying to analyze the 2 combat systems.
fell off hard - LOL ye right...
More and more gamers are joining every day so I would not call that "fell off hard"
What issues in GW2 with combat are you talking about? You can't just say "I heard there are issues, why doesn't anyone talk about them?", you need to be specific. Animation lock? What is that? There are a few spells that root you temporarily while channeling, is that what you mean? Hit boxes have also never been an issue in GW2 either, so not sure what you mean there.
Also keep in mind you can't disprove a negative. If you're claiming there are issues, you need to provide the issue and your evidence of a problem... you can't make a claim and expect others to disprove it when you've offered nothing to disprove.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Mechanically, might-stacking scepter Elementalist would like a word with you.
I'm farming Fractals for 6 months 38 46 daily every day sick and tired never got a FUCKING weapon skin . Today loged in the game for 5 min and logged out.
Bought all materials for ascensed armor and I wait i wait because I need 38 days to craft all damask crap for armor game became so boring they wanted to make other elementalist traits more usefull added nothing good all classes most got nice new skill elems got and blast that can Miss. Promised rewarding Fractals my necro with 4 15 slog bag is full of those rings ...face palm I can't even salvage them I guess I will quit so tired of this game and its hidden FARM GRIND.
PVP is a joke some time you get a good team some time a completly retarded team .....WvW boring seasons dual teaming realy game is so fucked up
You are moving away from the point. It's not about specific issues in GW2. I am going based on memory of things I have read in the past. I really don't care what issues you want to identify. Unless you feel that GW2 combat is perfect and flawless. I am not here to point out issues in GW2. My point is that if you identify issues in one system and totally ignore issues in the other, you have a non objective review. That's what I am discussing here, not animation locks or targeting issues.
SO..MUCH....KITTENS...THIS!
I love my Warrior & Necro, hate my Ranger and still mastering guardian and ele. So really... really try new classes, AND STILL, depending on the build, your whole fighting mechanics may change.
now: GW2 (11 80s).
Dark Souls 2.
future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
"Bro, do your even fractal?"
Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
May not even need to re roll a new class. Many classes, just need a different gear set and supporting build and it's like a whole new class. Mesmers, Thieves and Necros are probably the top classes for effective variety in differing play styles within the same class.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Oddly the Engineer is my most advanced character. Back when Ascended gear was limited to Back, rings and neck, I was 5AR short of the cap on my Engineer.
But I only ever played one build. Nades so with that said, it's hard for me to speak to the different builds for the class if I never tried them.
Although I did try a dual pistol build briefly, but that kinda failed hard......For me anyway.
If you really don't know how to go off the beaten path then you haven't really played GW2. Those heart quests are just side attractions, the real gems are in the exploration.
This is not a game.
So you got your degrees incorrect, well next time make sure you are correct please, because complaining about 90 degree attacks vs 180 degree attacks is quite different.
There are min/max rotations for different encounters, but they are not just something you can do over and over, you have to break your rotations, adjust to different aspects of the fight, and then at times you might start up a rotation again depending on what you want to do. This can be said of any game, there are times you want to maximize your dps, and times you want to do other things, but you can't just sit there and spam the same keys in the same order over and over and do nothing else, you have to break the rotations at times to do other things.
It's actually not a fact at all, there is no CC in WoW that lasts 30 seconds in PvP, not even half that. Please don't state your inaccurate opinions as facts... At this point I almost don't want to take any of the rest of your response seriously, because you know so little about WoW, but i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and continue reading what you have to say.
In WoW movement is important, there are many position based attacks, as well as the fact that you can LoS in WoW, outrange things and of course since you don't know much about WoW, the game mechanics work in a way that when you are attacking a target from behind certain defensive mechanics are nullified. WoW's projectiles only go through walls or objects on certain types of situations, and can sometimes clip the edge of a pillar or terrain based on server-client lag. If a guy is standing directly behind a huge pillar and you are on the other side, you will be Line of sighted. Please actually play the game before commenting that it is one way or the other. I can tell already by what you have claimed that you have not played any high-rated arena, or done any top progression raiding.
It's not possible to auto attack without a target, auto attacks make up very small amount of WoW's damage. It is possible to misfire certain types of spells that fall under any spell category without a target. Sure WoW uses a target system, and has a lot of target-requiring spells, but not ALL of them are, and it has way more skills than GW2, so you get a healthy blend.
Completely untrue, the basic combat mechanics are auto attacking and a small group of newbie skills, WoW classes have tons of abilities at top level play, all with varying mechanics and functions, to say it is like the low level of play is just blatantly ignorant to how the game actually plays. I think you are confusing it with how gw2 is, just because the feel of your character in gw2 is defined very early, doesn't mean in other mmos it holds true. Auto attacking makes up very little of WoW play, and until you get all of your abilities you won't really begin mastering your class. It would be like saying you could define a GW2 class right when you make the character and only use the first 1 hotkey ability they give you.
I'm talking about physical mechanics here. A shatter combo literally took much more skill (no it was not some insane feat of skill though) than anything you can do in gw2.
You aren't an eager player of both games, let's face it... If you were, you would be able to immediately tell how inaccurate that video is, also your posts are almost always completely biased towards gw2, yet you somehow want to add credibility to your statements by claiming you are an eager player of both games.
I've played every class in gw2, when I talk about mechanics I talk about the actual skill to execute something, I come from a professional RTS background and understand mechanics very well (I averaged 300+ apm in my prime). The combos you land in GW2 require similar to mechanics in WoW, but WoW has certain mechanics (like the tbc mage shatter combo) that actually go significantly above anything gw2 has to offer. I am talking about the actual mechanics to execute the combos, not some gameplay mechanic, i'm talking PHYSICAL mechanics.
Dude, you're holding up the ability to cast two spells that have different speeds for when they hit so that you count the passive crit ability twice, as if that's something way more complex than anything you can do in GW2?
Really?
I'd rather not be part of an argument that's entirely preferences, but we could at least stay away from the vague claims and attempts to make one's argument sound valid by touting meaningless veterancy.
And gameplay mechanics are the 'physical' mechanics as they are all the interactive elements that people use to play the game, unless you're making something very strange up here.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
MMORPGs are not RTS but that doesn't mean certain elements do not translate to one another, someone that has played the most mechanically demanding genre at the highest level knows what takes mechanical skill and what doesn't. People that can't incorporate elements from one genre into another generally aren't very skilled gamers. It would be like saying you can only use the philosophies from Art of War, for actual warfare.
Would you mind meeting me on wow in europe or NA with your character with your highest arena rating, as some sort of proof that you actually know what it takes to play WoW at a highly skilled level?
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I love it when people use the "you need a carrot on a stick to enjoy a game?" argument to defend the almost complete lack of charecter progression in GW2 (more so at endgame), and try and make the person they are speaking to somehow feel bad and invalidate them. Since when did charecter progressions become synonomous with WoW's tier gear system?....
The answer for the vast majority of MMO players is yes....it would be cool if there was some form of meaningful charecter progression, especially at endgame. There is no shame is saying that you like your charecter becoming stronger or better at certain things over time. Charecter progression in and of itself is the heart of what an MMORPG is. Some do it through constant skill increases/alternate advancement (a la sandboxes such as EVE or AO, or themeparks like EQ2 or AoC), and some do it via gear alone (WoW, Rift, SWTOR). There are many forms of "carrots", some people find certin forms of carrots more enjoyable than others, but the fact reamins that carrots are indeed very fun and keep players playing long term.
Second that!
I found leveling in GW2 a rewarding experience!
PvP is not better than PvE in learning mechanics at endgame in WoW. They can be learned by either styles. If you think it does, then it merely shows your bias towards non-PvPer's. Twitch skills aren't as 'professional' unless the game is based around it, and WoW is not.
As for the GW2/WoW comparison, I have no comment as it is irrelevant and highly based on preference.
*Whistles*
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
You cant level 1-80 in GW2 just by exploring.
Aside from level scaling to the content of a specific zone (which is a feature WoW is currently testing, so ya), everything you mentioned is also an option in WoW.
In WoW you gain XP (progress) by questing/tasks, you gain XP (progress) by running dungwons (i leveled at least 2 toons to max level thorugh dungeons only back when i played WoW...) you gain XP (progress) by gathering crafting mats, you gain XP (progress) by exploring the world. There are a few people in my guild who leveled max level toons just through archilogy back when Cata came out.
This is not a knock on GW2 at all, but if you are going to compare the 2 games to reflect WoW in a negative light, at least ensure the majority of features you are listing arn't in WoW lol