OP has a point, in that if those running a given Kickstarter project don't understand the business aspects of what they are doing well enough, their requested amount of money may not be sufficient to deliver the game as described in the project, leading to a funded game that either never appears at all, or appears only as a shadow of what was promised. This is simply a risk though, of which backers should be aware, not a reason such projects shouldn't happen. Most of the projects that show up on Kickstarter are things that couldn't get funding the traditional way, so what you are really paying for isn't a copy of the game when you back, it's the chance for the game to exist. Some will likely fail, but those that succeed will probably make the failures worth it.
I know I am more excited for Hero U and Project Eternity than I am for any traditionally funded game coming in the near future.
On the flip side though, traditional companies aren't in danger from Kickstarter. With a very small number of exceptions, Kickstarter projects have such low budgets that they wouldn't even be a blip on the radar for a "real" gaming company, and big companies don't do tiny (budget) games. That isn't their niche. What Kickstarter is doing is filling in a gap in the market, allowing the games to be created that are too big for one guy in his basement to cobble together in his spare time, but too small to appeal to a wide enough customer base to get the suits at the big companies excited. In a sense, Kickstarter is allowing computer gaming to return to it's roots, when the gaming public was a much smaller market, and a wider variety of games were created because the "AAA" investment threshold wasn't so high. Most of the games made in the 80s and 90s, even the popular ones, would never get greenlit by big companies today, because they would be considered too niche.
Long story short, regardless of how you feel about the quality of either market segment, Kickstarter won't kill Big Gaming, or vice versa; thinking they will is a pipe dream.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
I have a rather negative outlook on the way video games in general are being developed today. It seems like the Early Access/Kick Starter trend that is sweeping the industry is bringing more harm than good. Gone are the days of having to go to a bank to submit a business proposal outlining specifically your intentions and having to prove you are able to accomplish such a plan. There are no more regulations on how developement progresses unless you find a developer that is very good at what they are doing.
I am mixing a few things in this topic, only because the industry is mixing them as well. Or failing to combine the necessary components to create a great game or gaming company. There is a difference between "A game in developement that is in early access" and "A gaming company developing an early access game" This is where I believe a lot of the issues arise from.
While it is possible for a developer/developement team to create a "Great Game" it is a very rare occurence when not understanding every aspect of the industry. Developers need to be backed by a company that has more than just a community management team and a developement team. You need to have Management, Research and Development, Customer Relations, Financing and many other aspects that not even I know enough about to go into full detail.
This is why I have come here to post this thread. I know that the MMORPG community is comprised of all sorts of opinions. Ranging from Developers to Players, White Collar to Blue Collar, Business professionals to McDonald employees.
And here we go, let the fun begin! I look forward to hearing all of your opinions on this matter!
What is this industry that you speak of? F2P McDonald's variations on mmo content?
In case you did not notice, this thread is posted in the general gaming forum which is used to discuss NON-MMORPG titles. The industry I speak of is the gaming industry, not the MMO/MMORPG industry. Although they are also included in the industry they hardly ever get introduced by these types of programs from what I have experienced.
Use your head, if something doesn't look right, don't give them money, or don't give them money period. No one is holding you hostage or a gun to your head.
I haven't given to any kickstarter and early access in forms has been going on for 15 years or more.
Do not give money to a kickstarter if you cannot handle it disappearing, no matter how well done the presentation was, or who is doing it. Kickstarter stuff will fail, and most likely fail at a higher rate than studio stuff, because they have even less money. If 20-40% actually make it, that would be astoundingly good imo.
Use your head, if something doesn't look right, don't give them money, or don't give them money period. No one is holding you hostage or a gun to your head.
I haven't given to any kickstarter and early access in forms has been going on for 15 years or more.
Do not give money to a kickstarter if you cannot handle it disappearing, no matter how well done the presentation was, or who is doing it. Kickstarter stuff will fail, and most likely fail at a higher rate than studio stuff, because they have even less money. If 20-40% actually make it, that would be astoundingly good imo.
I have invested in a fair number of kickstarter projects, but I use a simple rule of thumb; I only invest when I think the portion of the rewards for the tier I picked which are not contingent on the game actually getting released are worth the amount of money required for that tier. That I way I get my money's worth whether the game releases or not, and actually getting the game is just a nice surprise bonus.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
I think greed is destroying the industry, like everything else in entertainment. For example in the mmorpg genre, WoW tapped the mainstream market and has shown that there is potentialy huge money to be had in MMORPG's, companies have been trying to rush and push out something to grab some of the pie. It has led to the endless release of sub par "wow clones" that have failed one after another giving birth to the wretched F2P market where failed games once went to try and recoup some money before going 6 feet under. When companies seen that they could push out cheap crap games and label them F2P and people would still throw money at them, they jumped at this new market.
Casual players once turned off by the genre can now buy items and progress that we once had to actually play the game to achieve because everyone wants everything right now. Companies have learned that they can make quick money from these players in a few short months instead of stretching it out over a long period of time. So this has led to the 3 months and done type games we are at now.
Early access I don't think has anything to do destroying anything. It just gives you the option to play the game before it is finished. The industry has shown that people don't care about if your game is not finished as long as it is fun to play, people will pay. We as consumers are hungry for things that are new and given the nature of this form of entertainment they can get away with releasing games before they are done. Its not like you can go watch half of a movie while they are still filming it, that really wouldn't work.
I think the Kick Starter games are going to show that there is still a market for niche type games and maybe even attract a AAA or two type game to try and capture some of that market it in the near future. Kick Starter games I think will/could drive the genre to some innovation if any of these games show some success and I think it will only be good for the genre in the long run.
Kickstarter should be set up as any other investment and the people you invest should get some sort of return. Here invest in my new electric car idea and when they are sold I will sell you one at a discount, sounds great huh. This shit reminds me of tithing. Lets round up all the people with less income then have them donate a portion of their salary to us and lets promise them entrance to heaven or a new video game. Brilliant scam this is.
Kickstarter should be a tool to gather investors. This could allow people of lower income to invest in a project that they deem worthy and see some form of return if the project is a success. Richard Garriott does not need your donations. He is not some poor man with a grand idea that cant see it to fruition due to being penniless.
This could be the reason why you GET THE GAME WITH ANY DONATION OF $45 OR MORE. And no, Garriott is not a billionaire that can toss around 100 million like its nothing.
In fact, many of the best kickstarters have setups like that. The more you donate the more you get out of it. Jebus you guys are amazing uninformed.
Richard Garriott is in the industry so he has the contacts necessary to fund a game. If a baseball player can do it without kickstarter, someone who has been developing games since like 1979 should be able to. Its just far easier to get small amounts of money from a few hundred thousand than a large chunk of change from real investors who actually set deadlines and want to see some goals achieved. If Garriott can bankroll a trip to space he probably could have created a game with that money. " Now, at a reported cost of more than $30 million, he will become the sixth private citizen to travel into orbit. "
If you are going to blow 30 mil to go to space while your current game "tabula rasa" is on life support, then beg for capital for an investment, you can fuck off.
Kickstarter and early access give indie devs the chance to make a game and bring it to the people. Without it, the AAA companies would dominate the market and small indie dev teams would not exits.
If you don't like early access , DONT BUY IT ! So simple.
OP I think you are just premature. 2014 will start to show if Kickstarter can produce meaningful results but 2015 will tell all.
By the end of 2015 we will know of millions were wasted on dreams with potential or if millions crowd funded unlocked potential that big time developers just couldn't see.
OP I think you are just premature. 2014 will start to show if Kickstarter can produce meaningful results but 2015 will tell all.
By the end of 2015 we will know of millions were wasted on dreams with potential or if millions crowd funded unlocked potential that big time developers just couldn't see.
I don't think that a debate/opinion thread can be considered premature. Although you are correct that we haven't really begun to scratch the surface of what the ramifications (Good or Bad) will be of such programs/models. I am merely trying to create a good debate thread that will enlighten and maybe even have effects on how we think of things. Regardless of anyones opinon I think the time for discussing this is pretty appropriate. This is not an I win/You Lose, You Win/I Lose thread.
Maybe my original post could use some work?
Any suggestions are welcome, I am not above being corrected
Stage 1 had UO, EQ1, AC1, AO, Lineage, SWG and DaoC
Each of those games outside of EQ1 and DaoC were vastly different from each other. Game companies saw that EQ1 and DaoC were similar at its core (D&D based) with one slight focus that was different, RvR. The core design was looked at as popular because both games had a decent sized playerbase while radically different ones like AC1 and AO did not. This set the path for stage 2.
The clone wars has begun. EQ2, AC2, WoW, Lineage 2 all based off of EQ 1 and DaoC core designs. runescape was a browser game, Ryzom was a flop at first with FF11 being looked at as a console MMO. It became CLEAR that if you wanted to make money you need to follow the clone design.....to big companies.
Stage 2 hasn't ended yet because for a stage to end, something needs to come along and end the current cycle.
Or wait, you are going to tell me that Asherons Call fans ASKED for it to be made like AC2?!? Did SWG fans ASK for it to be made more like WoW?!?
Again, your opinion is wrong because its lacking in anything remotely factual. You have a RIGHT to it, but just because you can have an opinion doesn't mean its right.
I think you should re-read the topic. Were any of those games you listed changed during early access(alpha/beta) or a broken kickstarter promise?
I'm not talking about changing a finished product.
Also most of those games were released 10 years ago, did they have the alphas/betas we see today?
I remember when you couldn't try a game unless you got a floppy/casette from a gaming magazine. If you liked it, you played it. If you didn't, you didn't. Non of this pandering to the majority to make money.
I've almost exclusively been playing "early access" games for about a year. some of them are terrible and imo money grabs. but a lot are very fun. I would now rather take part in the development of a game from early on instead of throwing my money at a "finished" game developed soley by a handful of developers. being able to play a game from it's most basic form and watching it grow and evolve all while having the ability to give feedback to the developers is a good thing.
Complete nonsense just based on the fact that the industry has become stagnant thanks to corporate control forcing companies to make clones with little to no innovation in hopes to create another WoW.
Known GREAT game makers like Richard Garriott are turning to kickstarter to break the grip non game makers have over the making of games while average ones like Matt Firor are sticking with corporate backing to make me to themepark hand holding non innovative piles of crap that we have seen a dozen times already.
Well put, another way to Look at it would be with the Comic book world when Writers/Artist Left Marvel and Dc to make Image Darkhorse etc. To have control (and gain there own$$) over there project which they didn't want to change or dummy down to appease stock/shareholders
Oh please. Greed is the reason the industry exists at all. Without greed, we wouldn't have anything but kickstarter games, and probably not all of those. And the industry isn't being "destroyed." It continues to grow. It just looks very, very different than it used to because the market they are trying to appeal to is larger, and consists primarily of people whose tastes are fundamentally different from "old school" gamers. We all need to remember that the game industry, like any other industry, is an industry first and foremost, it's the other word that is secondary.
That being said, for the most part I hate the tastes of the mass market, so I am very happy that kickstarter is making it financially viable for developers to target niche audiences again.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
As long as the companies are upfront and honest about the state of their game (pre-alpha, alpha, beta) then, as always, its buyer beware. You pays your money you takes your chances.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
OP I think you are just premature. 2014 will start to show if Kickstarter can produce meaningful results but 2015 will tell all.
By the end of 2015 we will know of millions were wasted on dreams with potential or if millions crowd funded unlocked potential that big time developers just couldn't see.
I don't think that a debate/opinion thread can be considered premature. Although you are correct that we haven't really begun to scratch the surface of what the ramifications (Good or Bad) will be of such programs/models. I am merely trying to create a good debate thread that will enlighten and maybe even have effects on how we think of things. Regardless of anyones opinon I think the time for discussing this is pretty appropriate. This is not an I win/You Lose, You Win/I Lose thread.
Maybe my original post could use some work?
Any suggestions are welcome, I am not above being corrected
Please allow me to expound then:
Destroying an industry is very hard to do. 9-11 almost destroyed the airline industry. But it is alive and thriving today.
I do not believe the gaming or MMO industries will be destroyed by anything.
I'd also stipulate that there is insufficient evidence to determine at this early point whether or not Kickstarter and crowd funding will have a positive or negative impact on the industry and how it operates. There are a lot of people, especially those at big developers and those that have spent thousands to contribute that are eagerly awaiting the next 2 years worth of results.
If the games pushed out by Crowd Funding are received well by critics, see additional financial success after release and create new Kickstarter based developers it will have been improved the industry.
If not, and people feel robbed, well it will be just a footnote on what the internet made possible and we'll be back to indie and AAA titles.
I don't think anyone can say what impact it will have, cause the games simply haven't been released yet and overall the impact has been very small, since most developers and publishers are still making titles.
I was wondering when the personal attacks would come. It was just a matter of time. The reason for the title being worded the way it is, is simple. It is a debate that a large majority of forum members are having and it brings out a passion in the people posting that a generic title might not. Asking the question and stating it as a fact are two completely opposite things. My opinion is a mixture of the two and I can hear both sides of the debate and relate to them without taking personal shots.
I think there is a legitimate debate to be had around Kickstarter even though I personally am a big supporter of it. However the question you raised doesn't ask for debate but simply ridicule as it looks like a poor trolling attempt or a fanatic unhinged from reality . You would have got better responses with something more reasonable like "Is the Kickstarter phenomenon good or bad for the gaming industry?"
I was wondering when the personal attacks would come. It was just a matter of time. The reason for the title being worded the way it is, is simple. It is a debate that a large majority of forum members are having and it brings out a passion in the people posting that a generic title might not. Asking the question and stating it as a fact are two completely opposite things. My opinion is a mixture of the two and I can hear both sides of the debate and relate to them without taking personal shots.
I think there is a legitimate debate to be had around Kickstarter even though I personally am a big supporter of it. However the question you raised doesn't ask for debate but simply ridicule as it looks like a poor trolling attempt or a fanatic unhinged from reality . You would have got better responses with something more reasonable like "Is the Kickstarter phenomenon good or bad for the gaming industry?"
Originally posted by FoeHammerJT
Originally posted by NextGem
Originally posted by FoeHammerJT
OP I think you are just premature. 2014 will start to show if Kickstarter can produce meaningful results but 2015 will tell all.
By the end of 2015 we will know of millions were wasted on dreams with potential or if millions crowd funded unlocked potential that big time developers just couldn't see.
I don't think that a debate/opinion thread can be considered premature. Although you are correct that we haven't really begun to scratch the surface of what the ramifications (Good or Bad) will be of such programs/models. I am merely trying to create a good debate thread that will enlighten and maybe even have effects on how we think of things. Regardless of anyones opinon I think the time for discussing this is pretty appropriate. This is not an I win/You Lose, You Win/I Lose thread.
Maybe my original post could use some work?
Any suggestions are welcome, I am not above being corrected
Please allow me to expound then:
Destroying an industry is very hard to do. 9-11 almost destroyed the airline industry. But it is alive and thriving today.
I do not believe the gaming or MMO industries will be destroyed by anything.
I'd also stipulate that there is insufficient evidence to determine at this early point whether or not Kickstarter and crowd funding will have a positive or negative impact on the industry and how it operates. There are a lot of people, especially those at big developers and those that have spent thousands to contribute that are eagerly awaiting the next 2 years worth of results.
If the games pushed out by Crowd Funding are received well by critics, see additional financial success after release and create new Kickstarter based developers it will have been improved the industry.
If not, and people feel robbed, well it will be just a footnote on what the internet made possible and we'll be back to indie and AAA titles.
I don't think anyone can say what impact it will have, cause the games simply haven't been released yet and overall the impact has been very small, since most developers and publishers are still making titles.
Thank you for the input, now I can make revisions in order to get a better debate going.
@FoeHammer if you could maybe give me some suggestions to improve the topic as well it would be appreciated!
You can send them private message or in the post, your choice. If you decide to at all
Richard Garriott is in the industry so he has the contacts necessary to fund a game. If a baseball player can do it without kickstarter, someone who has been developing games since like 1979 should be able to. Its just far easier to get small amounts of money from a few hundred thousand than a large chunk of change from real investors who actually set deadlines and want to see some goals achieved. If Garriott can bankroll a trip to space he probably could have created a game with that money. " Now, at a reported cost of more than $30 million, he will become the sixth private citizen to travel into orbit. "
If you are going to blow 30 mil to go to space while your current game "tabula rasa" is on life support, then beg for capital for an investment, you can fuck off.
He went with kickstarter to AVOID any kind of investments into his company that would lead to losing control over the game. His joining NCSoft taught him his final lesson on how bad outside investment is, Tabula Rasa he found, was never HIS game despite how much of his money was used to help make it.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
I think you should re-read the topic. Were any of those games you listed changed during early access(alpha/beta) or a broken kickstarter promise?
I suggest you re-read the post I replied to. It was all in context of the argument put forth.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
I was wondering when the personal attacks would come. It was just a matter of time. The reason for the title being worded the way it is, is simple. It is a debate that a large majority of forum members are having and it brings out a passion in the people posting that a generic title might not. Asking the question and stating it as a fact are two completely opposite things. My opinion is a mixture of the two and I can hear both sides of the debate and relate to them without taking personal shots.
I think there is a legitimate debate to be had around Kickstarter even though I personally am a big supporter of it. However the question you raised doesn't ask for debate but simply ridicule as it looks like a poor trolling attempt or a fanatic unhinged from reality . You would have got better responses with something more reasonable like "Is the Kickstarter phenomenon good or bad for the gaming industry?"
Originally posted by FoeHammerJT
Originally posted by NextGem
Originally posted by FoeHammerJT
OP I think you are just premature. 2014 will start to show if Kickstarter can produce meaningful results but 2015 will tell all.
By the end of 2015 we will know of millions were wasted on dreams with potential or if millions crowd funded unlocked potential that big time developers just couldn't see.
I don't think that a debate/opinion thread can be considered premature. Although you are correct that we haven't really begun to scratch the surface of what the ramifications (Good or Bad) will be of such programs/models. I am merely trying to create a good debate thread that will enlighten and maybe even have effects on how we think of things. Regardless of anyones opinon I think the time for discussing this is pretty appropriate. This is not an I win/You Lose, You Win/I Lose thread.
Maybe my original post could use some work?
Any suggestions are welcome, I am not above being corrected
Please allow me to expound then:
Destroying an industry is very hard to do. 9-11 almost destroyed the airline industry. But it is alive and thriving today.
I do not believe the gaming or MMO industries will be destroyed by anything.
I'd also stipulate that there is insufficient evidence to determine at this early point whether or not Kickstarter and crowd funding will have a positive or negative impact on the industry and how it operates. There are a lot of people, especially those at big developers and those that have spent thousands to contribute that are eagerly awaiting the next 2 years worth of results.
If the games pushed out by Crowd Funding are received well by critics, see additional financial success after release and create new Kickstarter based developers it will have been improved the industry.
If not, and people feel robbed, well it will be just a footnote on what the internet made possible and we'll be back to indie and AAA titles.
I don't think anyone can say what impact it will have, cause the games simply haven't been released yet and overall the impact has been very small, since most developers and publishers are still making titles.
Thank you for the input, now I can make revisions in order to get a better debate going.
@FoeHammer if you could maybe give me some suggestions to improve the topic as well it would be appreciated!
You can send them private message or in the post, your choice. If you decide to at all
Potential Topics to Discuss KickStarter and its Impact on MMO Gaming:
Will KickStarter/Crowd Funding improve the MMO Industry?
Do you agree that Kickstarter is having a detrimental impact on MMO gaming by allowing a developer to "cash out" before delivering a product?
What will the long term implications be if crowd funding successfully allows a developer do dodge publishers?
Do the players really know what they want: Will Crowd Funding improve the quality of games or will chaos ensue?
If Kickstarter funded games collapse in 2015, what will the industry look like afterwards?
Personally, I look at games like art. I do not believe that crowds can create masterpieces. Would Michelangelo have been a great if 1.5 million people were pushing him in different directions by throwing cash at him while painted?
I was wondering when the personal attacks would come. It was just a matter of time. The reason for the title being worded the way it is, is simple. It is a debate that a large majority of forum members are having and it brings out a passion in the people posting that a generic title might not. Asking the question and stating it as a fact are two completely opposite things. My opinion is a mixture of the two and I can hear both sides of the debate and relate to them without taking personal shots.
I think there is a legitimate debate to be had around Kickstarter even though I personally am a big supporter of it. However the question you raised doesn't ask for debate but simply ridicule as it looks like a poor trolling attempt or a fanatic unhinged from reality . You would have got better responses with something more reasonable like "Is the Kickstarter phenomenon good or bad for the gaming industry?"
Originally posted by FoeHammerJT
Originally posted by NextGem
Originally posted by FoeHammerJT
OP I think you are just premature. 2014 will start to show if Kickstarter can produce meaningful results but 2015 will tell all.
By the end of 2015 we will know of millions were wasted on dreams with potential or if millions crowd funded unlocked potential that big time developers just couldn't see.
I don't think that a debate/opinion thread can be considered premature. Although you are correct that we haven't really begun to scratch the surface of what the ramifications (Good or Bad) will be of such programs/models. I am merely trying to create a good debate thread that will enlighten and maybe even have effects on how we think of things. Regardless of anyones opinon I think the time for discussing this is pretty appropriate. This is not an I win/You Lose, You Win/I Lose thread.
Maybe my original post could use some work?
Any suggestions are welcome, I am not above being corrected
Please allow me to expound then:
Destroying an industry is very hard to do. 9-11 almost destroyed the airline industry. But it is alive and thriving today.
I do not believe the gaming or MMO industries will be destroyed by anything.
I'd also stipulate that there is insufficient evidence to determine at this early point whether or not Kickstarter and crowd funding will have a positive or negative impact on the industry and how it operates. There are a lot of people, especially those at big developers and those that have spent thousands to contribute that are eagerly awaiting the next 2 years worth of results.
If the games pushed out by Crowd Funding are received well by critics, see additional financial success after release and create new Kickstarter based developers it will have been improved the industry.
If not, and people feel robbed, well it will be just a footnote on what the internet made possible and we'll be back to indie and AAA titles.
I don't think anyone can say what impact it will have, cause the games simply haven't been released yet and overall the impact has been very small, since most developers and publishers are still making titles.
Thank you for the input, now I can make revisions in order to get a better debate going.
@FoeHammer if you could maybe give me some suggestions to improve the topic as well it would be appreciated!
You can send them private message or in the post, your choice. If you decide to at all
Potential Topics to Discuss KickStarter and its Impact on MMO Gaming:
Will KickStarter/Crowd Funding improve the MMO Industry?
Do you agree that Kickstarter is having a detrimental impact on MMO gaming by allowing a developer to "cash out" before delivering a product?
What will the long term implications be if crowd funding successfully allows a developer do dodge publishers?
Do the players really know what they want: Will Crowd Funding improve the quality of games or will chaos ensue?
If Kickstarter funded games collapse in 2015, what will the industry look like afterwards?
Personally, I look at games like art. I do not believe that crowds can create masterpieces. Would Michelangelo have been a great if 1.5 million people were pushing him in different directions by throwing cash at him while painted?
Potential Topics to Discuss KickStarter and its Impact on MMO Gaming:
Will KickStarter/Crowd Funding improve the MMO Industry?
Already has. Xyson got funding for an expansion that otherwise he could not afford. I think Wurm did as well. Hell Rust as an alpha standlone incomplete game is actually better than some AAA games.
Do you agree that Kickstarter is having a detrimental impact on MMO gaming by allowing a developer to "cash out" before delivering a product?
no...but it can. The worst offenders of 'cashing out' has been the larger companies and its been that way for a long time.
What will the long term implications be if crowd funding successfully allows a developer do dodge publishers?
nothing but good and this has been studied and measured to be consitently accurate
Do the players really know what they want: Will Crowd Funding improve the quality of games or will chaos ensue?
chaos will exist but in the mean it will improve gaming. Actually no 'will' in it. It already has.
If Kickstarter funded games collapse in 2015, what will the industry look like afterwards?
It will not.
Personally, I look at games like art. I do not believe that crowds can create masterpieces. Would Michelangelo have been a great if 1.5 million people were pushing him in different directions by throwing cash at him while painted?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Also, I think some of your statements are pretty liberal.
The only analogous AAA title to compare Rust to for example that I can think of is Day Z Standalone. The fact that Day Z Standalone has far more players and sold far more units thus far would indicate otherwise. (Started as a mod but is being built by a mid sized developer.)
By most definetions of quality and success, Xyson and Wurm wouldn't make the cut.
Might you post the relevant "studies" that show crowd funding has benefitted the gaming industry? I'd love to read those.
Edit: I have backed several games on KickStarter, I merely remain skeptical that the internet is going to bear good fruit in this case. I think many of its other impacts on society have been negative: such as social media. I am unconvinced, having a legal avenue for people (and yes companies and corporations will use this more and more) to take money from people in exchange for "potential" results will be a positive thing long term.
I could for instance see some failures resulting in law suits and the government stepping in to "Regulate and Police" crowd funding under the SEC. Then it wouldn't be at all unlike to what many small and mid size companies have already been doing. Offering Alpha and Beta products with potential for cash up-front.
Why finish any game if you can get paid in full for a beta?
Also, I think some of your statements are pretty liberal.
The only analogous AAA title to compare Rust to for example that I can think of is Day Z Standalone. The fact that Day Z Standalone has far more players and sold far more units thus far would indicate otherwise. (Started as a mod but is being built by a mid sized developer.)
By most definetions of quality and success, Xyson and Wurm wouldn't make the cut.
Might you post the relevant "studies" that show crowd funding has benefitted the gaming industry? I'd love to read those.
...this is what frustrates me.
You dont have to make a billion in sales to be successful. Every MMO doesnt have to be the Micdonalds of games in order to have value.
The creator of Wurm is one guy. If he can make a living off that game (which he has) and people like myself are willing to pay then its a success..full stop.
The only thing 'liberal' in my comment is the assumption that when I say something is better that I dont mean 'for me'. quality of games is highly subjective is it not? so its assumed
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Comments
OP has a point, in that if those running a given Kickstarter project don't understand the business aspects of what they are doing well enough, their requested amount of money may not be sufficient to deliver the game as described in the project, leading to a funded game that either never appears at all, or appears only as a shadow of what was promised. This is simply a risk though, of which backers should be aware, not a reason such projects shouldn't happen. Most of the projects that show up on Kickstarter are things that couldn't get funding the traditional way, so what you are really paying for isn't a copy of the game when you back, it's the chance for the game to exist. Some will likely fail, but those that succeed will probably make the failures worth it.
I know I am more excited for Hero U and Project Eternity than I am for any traditionally funded game coming in the near future.
On the flip side though, traditional companies aren't in danger from Kickstarter. With a very small number of exceptions, Kickstarter projects have such low budgets that they wouldn't even be a blip on the radar for a "real" gaming company, and big companies don't do tiny (budget) games. That isn't their niche. What Kickstarter is doing is filling in a gap in the market, allowing the games to be created that are too big for one guy in his basement to cobble together in his spare time, but too small to appeal to a wide enough customer base to get the suits at the big companies excited. In a sense, Kickstarter is allowing computer gaming to return to it's roots, when the gaming public was a much smaller market, and a wider variety of games were created because the "AAA" investment threshold wasn't so high. Most of the games made in the 80s and 90s, even the popular ones, would never get greenlit by big companies today, because they would be considered too niche.
Long story short, regardless of how you feel about the quality of either market segment, Kickstarter won't kill Big Gaming, or vice versa; thinking they will is a pipe dream.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
In case you did not notice, this thread is posted in the general gaming forum which is used to discuss NON-MMORPG titles. The industry I speak of is the gaming industry, not the MMO/MMORPG industry. Although they are also included in the industry they hardly ever get introduced by these types of programs from what I have experienced.
No.
Use your head, if something doesn't look right, don't give them money, or don't give them money period. No one is holding you hostage or a gun to your head.
I haven't given to any kickstarter and early access in forms has been going on for 15 years or more.
Do not give money to a kickstarter if you cannot handle it disappearing, no matter how well done the presentation was, or who is doing it. Kickstarter stuff will fail, and most likely fail at a higher rate than studio stuff, because they have even less money. If 20-40% actually make it, that would be astoundingly good imo.
I have invested in a fair number of kickstarter projects, but I use a simple rule of thumb; I only invest when I think the portion of the rewards for the tier I picked which are not contingent on the game actually getting released are worth the amount of money required for that tier. That I way I get my money's worth whether the game releases or not, and actually getting the game is just a nice surprise bonus.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
No.
I think greed is destroying the industry, like everything else in entertainment. For example in the mmorpg genre, WoW tapped the mainstream market and has shown that there is potentialy huge money to be had in MMORPG's, companies have been trying to rush and push out something to grab some of the pie. It has led to the endless release of sub par "wow clones" that have failed one after another giving birth to the wretched F2P market where failed games once went to try and recoup some money before going 6 feet under. When companies seen that they could push out cheap crap games and label them F2P and people would still throw money at them, they jumped at this new market.
Casual players once turned off by the genre can now buy items and progress that we once had to actually play the game to achieve because everyone wants everything right now. Companies have learned that they can make quick money from these players in a few short months instead of stretching it out over a long period of time. So this has led to the 3 months and done type games we are at now.
Early access I don't think has anything to do destroying anything. It just gives you the option to play the game before it is finished. The industry has shown that people don't care about if your game is not finished as long as it is fun to play, people will pay. We as consumers are hungry for things that are new and given the nature of this form of entertainment they can get away with releasing games before they are done. Its not like you can go watch half of a movie while they are still filming it, that really wouldn't work.
I think the Kick Starter games are going to show that there is still a market for niche type games and maybe even attract a AAA or two type game to try and capture some of that market it in the near future. Kick Starter games I think will/could drive the genre to some innovation if any of these games show some success and I think it will only be good for the genre in the long run.
Richard Garriott is in the industry so he has the contacts necessary to fund a game. If a baseball player can do it without kickstarter, someone who has been developing games since like 1979 should be able to. Its just far easier to get small amounts of money from a few hundred thousand than a large chunk of change from real investors who actually set deadlines and want to see some goals achieved. If Garriott can bankroll a trip to space he probably could have created a game with that money. " Now, at a reported cost of more than $30 million, he will become the sixth private citizen to travel into orbit. "
If you are going to blow 30 mil to go to space while your current game "tabula rasa" is on life support, then beg for capital for an investment, you can fuck off.
Read more: Space Tourist Richard Garriott - TIME http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1844160,00.html#ixzz2pYWsEPWc
I published a video specifically about this issue.
http://youtu.be/3dF1JEmh3Ng
Are you crazy ?
Kickstarter and early access give indie devs the chance to make a game and bring it to the people. Without it, the AAA companies would dominate the market and small indie dev teams would not exits.
If you don't like early access , DONT BUY IT ! So simple.
Step in the arena and break the wall down
OP I think you are just premature. 2014 will start to show if Kickstarter can produce meaningful results but 2015 will tell all.
By the end of 2015 we will know of millions were wasted on dreams with potential or if millions crowd funded unlocked potential that big time developers just couldn't see.
I don't think that a debate/opinion thread can be considered premature. Although you are correct that we haven't really begun to scratch the surface of what the ramifications (Good or Bad) will be of such programs/models. I am merely trying to create a good debate thread that will enlighten and maybe even have effects on how we think of things. Regardless of anyones opinon I think the time for discussing this is pretty appropriate. This is not an I win/You Lose, You Win/I Lose thread.
Maybe my original post could use some work?
Any suggestions are welcome, I am not above being corrected
I think you should re-read the topic. Were any of those games you listed changed during early access(alpha/beta) or a broken kickstarter promise?
I'm not talking about changing a finished product.
Also most of those games were released 10 years ago, did they have the alphas/betas we see today?
I remember when you couldn't try a game unless you got a floppy/casette from a gaming magazine. If you liked it, you played it. If you didn't, you didn't. Non of this pandering to the majority to make money.
"There are no more regulations on how developement progresses unless you find a developer that is very good at what they are doing."
Yes, we need more regulation. Corporations regulating every minute detail of how a game is developed.
Great idea since regulations are known for stimulating new ideas and not stagnating them.
Good god will people ever learn form history?
Well put, another way to Look at it would be with the Comic book world when Writers/Artist Left Marvel and Dc to make Image Darkhorse etc. To have control (and gain there own$$) over there project which they didn't want to change or dummy down to appease stock/shareholders
Oh please. Greed is the reason the industry exists at all. Without greed, we wouldn't have anything but kickstarter games, and probably not all of those. And the industry isn't being "destroyed." It continues to grow. It just looks very, very different than it used to because the market they are trying to appeal to is larger, and consists primarily of people whose tastes are fundamentally different from "old school" gamers. We all need to remember that the game industry, like any other industry, is an industry first and foremost, it's the other word that is secondary.
That being said, for the most part I hate the tastes of the mass market, so I am very happy that kickstarter is making it financially viable for developers to target niche audiences again.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
Please allow me to expound then:
Destroying an industry is very hard to do. 9-11 almost destroyed the airline industry. But it is alive and thriving today.
I do not believe the gaming or MMO industries will be destroyed by anything.
I'd also stipulate that there is insufficient evidence to determine at this early point whether or not Kickstarter and crowd funding will have a positive or negative impact on the industry and how it operates. There are a lot of people, especially those at big developers and those that have spent thousands to contribute that are eagerly awaiting the next 2 years worth of results.
If the games pushed out by Crowd Funding are received well by critics, see additional financial success after release and create new Kickstarter based developers it will have been improved the industry.
If not, and people feel robbed, well it will be just a footnote on what the internet made possible and we'll be back to indie and AAA titles.
I don't think anyone can say what impact it will have, cause the games simply haven't been released yet and overall the impact has been very small, since most developers and publishers are still making titles.
I think there is a legitimate debate to be had around Kickstarter even though I personally am a big supporter of it. However the question you raised doesn't ask for debate but simply ridicule as it looks like a poor trolling attempt or a fanatic unhinged from reality . You would have got better responses with something more reasonable like "Is the Kickstarter phenomenon good or bad for the gaming industry?"
Thank you for the input, now I can make revisions in order to get a better debate going.
@FoeHammer if you could maybe give me some suggestions to improve the topic as well it would be appreciated!
You can send them private message or in the post, your choice. If you decide to at all
You COMPLETELY missed the point.
He went with kickstarter to AVOID any kind of investments into his company that would lead to losing control over the game. His joining NCSoft taught him his final lesson on how bad outside investment is, Tabula Rasa he found, was never HIS game despite how much of his money was used to help make it.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
I suggest you re-read the post I replied to. It was all in context of the argument put forth.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Potential Topics to Discuss KickStarter and its Impact on MMO Gaming:
Will KickStarter/Crowd Funding improve the MMO Industry?
Do you agree that Kickstarter is having a detrimental impact on MMO gaming by allowing a developer to "cash out" before delivering a product?
What will the long term implications be if crowd funding successfully allows a developer do dodge publishers?
Do the players really know what they want: Will Crowd Funding improve the quality of games or will chaos ensue?
If Kickstarter funded games collapse in 2015, what will the industry look like afterwards?
Personally, I look at games like art. I do not believe that crowds can create masterpieces. Would Michelangelo have been a great if 1.5 million people were pushing him in different directions by throwing cash at him while painted?
Potential Topics to Discuss KickStarter and its Impact on MMO Gaming:
Will KickStarter/Crowd Funding improve the MMO Industry?
Already has. Xyson got funding for an expansion that otherwise he could not afford. I think Wurm did as well. Hell Rust as an alpha standlone incomplete game is actually better than some AAA games.
Do you agree that Kickstarter is having a detrimental impact on MMO gaming by allowing a developer to "cash out" before delivering a product?
no...but it can. The worst offenders of 'cashing out' has been the larger companies and its been that way for a long time.
What will the long term implications be if crowd funding successfully allows a developer do dodge publishers?
nothing but good and this has been studied and measured to be consitently accurate
Do the players really know what they want: Will Crowd Funding improve the quality of games or will chaos ensue?
chaos will exist but in the mean it will improve gaming. Actually no 'will' in it. It already has.
If Kickstarter funded games collapse in 2015, what will the industry look like afterwards?
It will not.
Personally, I look at games like art. I do not believe that crowds can create masterpieces. Would Michelangelo have been a great if 1.5 million people were pushing him in different directions by throwing cash at him while painted?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
@ SEANMCAD
Those were just sample topics.
Also, I think some of your statements are pretty liberal.
The only analogous AAA title to compare Rust to for example that I can think of is Day Z Standalone. The fact that Day Z Standalone has far more players and sold far more units thus far would indicate otherwise. (Started as a mod but is being built by a mid sized developer.)
By most definetions of quality and success, Xyson and Wurm wouldn't make the cut.
Might you post the relevant "studies" that show crowd funding has benefitted the gaming industry? I'd love to read those.
Edit: I have backed several games on KickStarter, I merely remain skeptical that the internet is going to bear good fruit in this case. I think many of its other impacts on society have been negative: such as social media. I am unconvinced, having a legal avenue for people (and yes companies and corporations will use this more and more) to take money from people in exchange for "potential" results will be a positive thing long term.
I could for instance see some failures resulting in law suits and the government stepping in to "Regulate and Police" crowd funding under the SEC. Then it wouldn't be at all unlike to what many small and mid size companies have already been doing. Offering Alpha and Beta products with potential for cash up-front.
Why finish any game if you can get paid in full for a beta?
...this is what frustrates me.
You dont have to make a billion in sales to be successful. Every MMO doesnt have to be the Micdonalds of games in order to have value.
The creator of Wurm is one guy. If he can make a living off that game (which he has) and people like myself are willing to pay then its a success..full stop.
The only thing 'liberal' in my comment is the assumption that when I say something is better that I dont mean 'for me'. quality of games is highly subjective is it not? so its assumed
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me