I feel like kickstarter and early access are just big BUYER BEWARE situations. I will never invest in kickstarter since I would rather wait for a finished game or at least something I can play. I have purchased early access stuff but it's pretty rare and I only do it to give small dev teams my support for games I like. In general I would much rather wait for a finished product. However I have bought games like the TMNT: Out of the Shadows game from Activision and the multiplayer has not worked since release. So even by waiting for finished products it's no guarantee they will work.
What really gets me is EQLandmark founder packs where they are selling Alpha for $99.99 it's just insulting when the big publishers try to take advantage of the indie/kickstarter/early access situation that has sprung up to help the little guys.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Can you not see the difference in giving money knowing that there will be no return and giving money to create a product? If I give money to Star Citizen it just may be because I want that game made so I can play it which is me investing money to create a product that I may enjoy. Selfless vs selfish. Its not hard to see the difference.
1. kickstarter is not I repeat not buying a product. nobody who gives money thinks that.
2. people donate with the idea that they MIGHT get to play that game.
3. and investment is more along the lines of getting an economic return from an economic investment.
I am starting to think this entire conversation is useless.
Look if you are happy with mainstream games then fine go play them.
Many of us however have been having fun with games that have been kickstartered and we are grateful the system exists because nobody else is creating games as intresting.
Yes there will be scams but pretty much the entire EA company is a scam as well without kickstarter so I am not worried about it.
Read this article and you might change your mind about whether or not people giving money think they are buying a product, and have no legal recourse if someone fails to deliver
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
1 Kickstarters - I would agree with Foe that it is too early to know with absolute certainty wether the effect will be good or bad. I am excited to see what the future holds. I have researched quite a few Kickstarters although I have not supported any of them as of yet. This does not mean that I have not seriously considered it or seen projects that I would love to see come to fruition.
2 Early Access - In regards to early access games that you actually pay to access, I have and will continue to support them. It is at this point in developement where I can at least get a good idea of what the developer is capable of by doing extensive research. I enter them more for the purpose of supporting them via my wallet, than giving constructive criticism. I would rather let the developer make these decisions. After all it is there creation.
I'm glad to see the debate is getting some serious thought behind it . I am also pleased to see that some heavy hitters on these forums have decided to join in. I have been reading every post and it is giving me some great insight on the subject already, even if some of it is purely opinion.
Can you not see the difference in giving money knowing that there will be no return and giving money to create a product? If I give money to Star Citizen it just may be because I want that game made so I can play it which is me investing money to create a product that I may enjoy. Selfless vs selfish. Its not hard to see the difference.
1. kickstarter is not I repeat not buying a product. nobody who gives money thinks that.
2. people donate with the idea that they MIGHT get to play that game.
3. and investment is more along the lines of getting an economic return from an economic investment.
I am starting to think this entire conversation is useless.
Look if you are happy with mainstream games then fine go play them.
Many of us however have been having fun with games that have been kickstartered and we are grateful the system exists because nobody else is creating games as intresting.
Yes there will be scams but pretty much the entire EA company is a scam as well without kickstarter so I am not worried about it.
Read this article and you might change your mind about whether or not people giving money think they are buying a product, and have no legal recourse if someone fails to deliver
After reading that article I think it really proves my first point. Regardless of the project if you don't know what the **** you are doing in a business environment you have no place trying to get a kickstarter going. An idea, however logical, is just an idea. The saying it takes a village to raise a child comes to mind. The same applies in business.
Honestly we needed PC game makers to step out like this to break the BS big game companies willingness to sell us less and expect us to pay more for their lame excuses. So its a good and bad thing to me. Great to break up the bigger companies and hold them more accountable for bad games.
I actually think it would be nice (not realistic, but nice) if *all* games, even the giant AAA studio titles, went through Kickstarter. I mean, think about it; if they got good enough at estimating what it would cost to develop a game before starting, then set the goal on kickstarter enough above that to ensure a respectable profit, then they could eliminate all the wasted effort that goes to developing games that end up not selling, because any that reached funded status would have already "sold" enough copies to be profitable before development was even started, and any sales post release would be almost pure profit.
And there will always be people who are suckers for "rewards," and will pay more to get what is essentially fluff, whether in game or physical rewards. And if you make all those rewards kickstarter only, then when the funding period ends, you know exactly how many collector's editions to produce, no wasted funds on units that end up not selling. And you can have a ridiculous number of tiers of collector's edition, with some of them costing insane amounts of money. If (and it's a big if) they could get enough of the gaming public to buy into the system, there would really be no downside to every game developer moving to a kickstarter only funding platform. From an efficiency standpoint, the reduction in wasted man hours would be astonishing.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Your thread title is quite frankly both the most retarded and histrionic thing I've read recently. These funding methods offer an alternative to traditional game financing. They don't destroy or harm traditional game funding models unless you see the possibility of competition as harmful (in which case you would be more at home in the former USSR or Cuba).
Kickstarter is the best thing ever to happen to game development because it gives indie devs the option to make games which would never get funding otherwise. Some of these games will probably be very good. I'm sure the next Minecraft phenomenon will come out of Kickstarter. Of course that doesn't mean that every Kickstarter project is worth your money but many of them are and why you'd just want none of them to exist is something I honestly don't understand.
I have to agree with iridescence here.
Although most 'indie' teams probably will never get off the ground, Kickstarter at least gives them the opportunity to move forward with their project, realize their actual ceiling of competence, implode, and disappear into obscurity. Prior to Kickstarter, we'd all just tolerate their five to eight years of whines and self-pity on gaming forums about how the only thing that separates them from the big guys is money. That's the one thing that was keeping them from delivering the most amazingly revolutionary thing the MMORPG genre has ever seen - Money.
Now, we can throw money at them and say "Now you have your money. Make it or shut the fuck up."
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
I feel like kickstarter and early access are just big BUYER BEWARE situations. I will never invest in kickstarter since I would rather wait for a finished game or at least something I can play. I have purchased early access stuff but it's pretty rare and I only do it to give small dev teams my support for games I like. In general I would much rather wait for a finished product. However I have bought games like the TMNT: Out of the Shadows game from Activision and the multiplayer has not worked since release. So even by waiting for finished products it's no guarantee they will work.
What really gets me is EQLandmark founder packs where they are selling Alpha for $99.99 it's just insulting when the big publishers try to take advantage of the indie/kickstarter/early access situation that has sprung up to help the little guys.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Read this article and you might change your mind about whether or not people giving money think they are buying a product, and have no legal recourse if someone fails to deliver
http://www.inc.com/eric-markowitz/when-kickstarter-investors-want-their-money-back.html
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
My opinion on the subject:
1 Kickstarters - I would agree with Foe that it is too early to know with absolute certainty wether the effect will be good or bad. I am excited to see what the future holds. I have researched quite a few Kickstarters although I have not supported any of them as of yet. This does not mean that I have not seriously considered it or seen projects that I would love to see come to fruition.
2 Early Access - In regards to early access games that you actually pay to access, I have and will continue to support them. It is at this point in developement where I can at least get a good idea of what the developer is capable of by doing extensive research. I enter them more for the purpose of supporting them via my wallet, than giving constructive criticism. I would rather let the developer make these decisions. After all it is there creation.
I'm glad to see the debate is getting some serious thought behind it . I am also pleased to see that some heavy hitters on these forums have decided to join in. I have been reading every post and it is giving me some great insight on the subject already, even if some of it is purely opinion.
After reading that article I think it really proves my first point. Regardless of the project if you don't know what the **** you are doing in a business environment you have no place trying to get a kickstarter going. An idea, however logical, is just an idea. The saying it takes a village to raise a child comes to mind. The same applies in business.
That was very interesting. Listened to every minute. Thanks for posting it. Now I'm going to be on youtube all night
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Honestly we needed PC game makers to step out like this to break the BS big game companies willingness to sell us less and expect us to pay more for their lame excuses. So its a good and bad thing to me. Great to break up the bigger companies and hold them more accountable for bad games.
I actually think it would be nice (not realistic, but nice) if *all* games, even the giant AAA studio titles, went through Kickstarter. I mean, think about it; if they got good enough at estimating what it would cost to develop a game before starting, then set the goal on kickstarter enough above that to ensure a respectable profit, then they could eliminate all the wasted effort that goes to developing games that end up not selling, because any that reached funded status would have already "sold" enough copies to be profitable before development was even started, and any sales post release would be almost pure profit.
And there will always be people who are suckers for "rewards," and will pay more to get what is essentially fluff, whether in game or physical rewards. And if you make all those rewards kickstarter only, then when the funding period ends, you know exactly how many collector's editions to produce, no wasted funds on units that end up not selling. And you can have a ridiculous number of tiers of collector's edition, with some of them costing insane amounts of money. If (and it's a big if) they could get enough of the gaming public to buy into the system, there would really be no downside to every game developer moving to a kickstarter only funding platform. From an efficiency standpoint, the reduction in wasted man hours would be astonishing.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
I have to agree with iridescence here.
Although most 'indie' teams probably will never get off the ground, Kickstarter at least gives them the opportunity to move forward with their project, realize their actual ceiling of competence, implode, and disappear into obscurity. Prior to Kickstarter, we'd all just tolerate their five to eight years of whines and self-pity on gaming forums about how the only thing that separates them from the big guys is money. That's the one thing that was keeping them from delivering the most amazingly revolutionary thing the MMORPG genre has ever seen - Money.
Now, we can throw money at them and say "Now you have your money. Make it or shut the fuck up."
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre