Originally posted by boxsnd How many failures does the industry need to realize that it only worked for WoW? It doesn't work for anyone else. 9 years of flops and counting. When will it end?
Seems you got something mixed up here. Are games a failure unless it manages to top WoW profits?
Games are successful in my book if they make a net profit and looking through those glasses there have been quite a few succesful themeparks during the last 9 years.
You or me disliking a game =/= failure of said game.
Themeparks would have been dead 8 years ago if they were financial failures, yet here we are
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!! (repeat ad infinitum)
Originally posted by boxsnd How many failures does the industry need to realize that it only worked for WoW? It doesn't work for anyone else. 9 years of flops and counting. When will it end?
I know you've got your fingers crossed, pal. And I would re-examine your definition of "flop." But, assuming you're right (which you aren't), what does that say about sandbox titles? That's an even longer dry spell, isn't it?
Originally posted by boxsnd How many failures does the industry need to realize that it only worked for WoW? It doesn't work for anyone else. 9 years of flops and counting. When will it end?
Just gotta say, while ESO is questing on Rails with linear vertical progression it is not a WoW clone, its a DAoC clone.
DAoC didn't have questing. PvE-wise it is clearly a WoW clone.
Other than EVE, is there a 'successful' sandbox MMORPG?
Final Fantasy XI
But FFXI wasn't a Sandbox game.
UO was successful, it topped out at what? 300k or something like that. As someone said earlier though. If either fail it doesn't prove themeparks are failures. It just proves they were bad games.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
Originally posted by boxsnd How many failures does the industry need to realize that it only worked for WoW? It doesn't work for anyone else. 9 years of flops and counting. When will it end?
Just gotta say, while ESO is questing on Rails with linear vertical progression it is not a WoW clone, its a DAoC clone.
DAoC didn't have questing. PvE-wise it is clearly a WoW clone.
And it's RVR model really isn't all that much like DAOC's if you look closely at it.
The real comparison will come when EQ:L and EQ:N launch as F2P from the start. If they succeed wildly and continue to grow year after year then you might see a halt to the current process of launching as sub only at first, only to convert to a f2P model down the road somewhere.
Otherwise, the current model apparently works, because LOTRO, SWTOR, RIFT and a host of others continue to roll on year after year after converting to F2P.
Perhaps the thing we need to change is the thinking that this payment model "progression" is bad, perhaps its the natural way for them to go these days, and are actually the sign of success. SWTOR seems to be making a case for it in my eyes anyways.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
With the amount of publicity involving a games release today it is common to achieve millions of players on launch day. Very very very few gamma have ever sustained that. Therefore expecting to sustain millions of players is very very slim.
Therefore expecting growth being the launch date is not realistic. Not growing beyond launch is not in any way a sign of failure.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx It is not the theme park that's the problem its the 6 button action minimal ui no risk all reward design philosophy these new games are employing . creating easy games for the lowest common denominator that only give 10 hours of game play instead of trying to get you to live a second life in a fantastic new world is the problem.
I'd bet you be unable to beat Castle Never in Neverwinter and/or Dominus on Merciless in Path of Exile. Both games that feature minimal skill abilities and action combat. So your argument is moot. This archaic notion that something is different is not hardcore has got to stop and stop now. Your personal preference can't influence your facts good sir!
I on the other hand abhor anything tab target or multi-hotbar ability. It is an archaic game design and does not demonstrate anything remotely to skill. All it does is force people to click and mouse turn causing undue hardships in PvE because the average game can't commit to muscle memory more then a handful of keybinds.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Originally posted by boxsnd How many failures does the industry need to realize that it only worked for WoW? It doesn't work for anyone else. 9 years of flops and counting. When will it end?
What are you talking about?
It works out great financially with TOR. TOR made $139M just on the cash shop .. with another 500k sub, it is make $229M in a year. In fact, it made by a $200M investment within one year.
Originally posted by boxsnd How many failures does the industry need to realize that it only worked for WoW? It doesn't work for anyone else. 9 years of flops and counting. When will it end?
What? So let me get this straight. WoW has 8 million players, SWTOR has 1 million players, we can assume GW2 also has many players, we can also assume the combined populations of Rift/LortO/DDO and other F2P mmos have sizable populations,...compared to EVE's 500k......EVE is the most successful sandbox, and has peaked at a little over 500k...by your definition of faileur, Sandbox was never a success.
So tell me...if ESO and Wildstar "fail", whats left then? By your very own logic, themepark succeeded, then failed, and sandbox never succeeded to begin with..
Posts like these warm my cockles
+1 I mean seriously…
My own 2 cents is that I bet these games will have a population dive after 2-3 months because they released before they provided end game incentive…..like every game before it has. The only reason WoW and EQ and DAOC didn't flop 2-3 months after release is because there were no alternative to fall back on. And by flop I mean lose the first wave of power gamers who get bored which is by no means flopping.
Originally posted by boxsnd How many failures does the industry need to realize that it only worked for WoW? It doesn't work for anyone else. 9 years of flops and counting. When will it end?
What? So let me get this straight. WoW has 8 million players, SWTOR has 1 million players, we can assume GW2 also has many players, we can also assume the combined populations of Rift/LortO/DDO and other F2P mmos have sizable populations,...compared to EVE's 500k......EVE is the most successful sandbox, and has peaked at a little over 500k...by your definition of faileur, Sandbox was never a success.
So tell me...if ESO and Wildstar "fail", whats left then? By your very own logic, themepark succeeded, then failed, and sandbox never succeeded to begin with..
Posts like these warm my cockles
+1 I mean seriously…
My own 2 cents is that I bet these games will have a population dive after 2-3 months because they released before they provided end game incentive…..like every game before it has. The only reason WoW and EQ and DAOC didn't flop 2-3 months after release is because there were no alternative to fall back on. And by flop I mean lose the first wave of power gamers who get bored which is by no means flopping. Every other theme park since has just not had an end game grind better than WoW or a handful of others so people max out, and get out.
You may have a better argument if you said that if Wildstar and TESO fail, then the P2P model has failed. But the most played games right now are all themeparks. WoW, GW2, SWTOR, FFXIV.
In all honesty, your argument was dead on arrival. One word... "WoW." Themepark subscription.
However, I would love to see a HUGE budget sandbox mmo, but how in the world is any company going to give it a chance. You have to convince your investors that taking a chance on this type of game is going to bring in money, while all of the current trends show that the profitable mmo's are ALL themepark.
I'm sorry, but your only hope for sandbox is to have a small company come up with a great game and if it becomes successful, the the big companies will follow and take a chance. Other than that, don't hold your breath... we're going to get themeparks from now and until eternity.
I've never played Sandbox, so I can't comment but i'm still open to it.
ESO won't fail. Just like TOR, you could make a stick figure MMORPG with ES or SW in the title and it will return 10x the investment you put into making the game. Those games will do well because of the name. The argument of how well the game actually plays is pointless, since we all know people will buy products simply because of name and force themselves to like it based off previous success.
Wildstar will be a more accurate prediction of a generic Theme Park game in this market. It really isn't riding off of previous success. It is a game in and of itself.
as long as there are gamers with more desire then time... Themeparks will continue to dominate the market. Especially as the first gen of MMO´s gamers will have less and less time in general for the next 30-40 years.
But otoh i think the Sandbox games will get a massive boost once we reach retirement.
Originally posted by boxsnd How many failures does the industry need to realize that it only worked for WoW? It doesn't work for anyone else. 9 years of flops and counting. When will it end?
What? So let me get this straight. WoW has 8 million players, SWTOR has 1 million players, we can assume GW2 also has many players, we can also assume the combined populations of Rift/LortO/DDO and other F2P mmos have sizable populations,...compared to EVE's 500k......EVE is the most successful sandbox, and has peaked at a little over 500k...by your definition of faileur, Sandbox was never a success.
So tell me...if ESO and Wildstar "fail", whats left then? By your very own logic, themepark succeeded, then failed, and sandbox never succeeded to begin with..
Posts like these warm my cockles
+1 I mean seriously…
My own 2 cents is that I bet these games will have a population dive after 2-3 months because they released before they provided end game incentive…..like every game before it has. The only reason WoW and EQ and DAOC didn't flop 2-3 months after release is because there were no alternative to fall back on. And by flop I mean lose the first wave of power gamers who get bored which is by no means flopping.
Also, leveling wasn't as fast as it is now. Sure there will always be power levelers, but at the time, most were playing their first MMO and took their time and had fun because not everyone knew what "endgame" was so never rushed to get there.
Originally posted by boxsnd How many failures does the industry need to realize that it only worked for WoW? It doesn't work for anyone else. 9 years of flops and counting. When will it end?
Just gotta say, while ESO is questing on Rails with linear vertical progression it is not a WoW clone, its a DAoC clone.
DAoC didn't have questing. PvE-wise it is clearly a WoW clone.
True but its what Firor wanted for DAoC when he saw that WoW money.
Hence why he fubared DAoC with raiding.
But to the topic at hand Themeparks are going no where. If my girlfriend can stand playing a themepark for more than an hour then they can hold a lot of peoples attention way longer than that regardless of how bad they really are.
Originally posted by boxsnd How many failures does the industry need to realize that it only worked for WoW? It doesn't work for anyone else. 9 years of flops and counting. When will it end?
Point me to a successful well executed sandbox and i'll be right there. sandbox games are failing bigger than themeparks.
If we could agree on what the term tank means maybe but since we won't no the arguments will go on. And it's not like sandbox's have a great track record the last 10 years either. It's easy to dismiss the ones that have not taken off as flawed or poorly implemented but than that argument can be applied to theme park games just as much.
I'm not a huge open world PVP fan but I do like sandbox games as well as theme park ones. Both bring something to the genre that can be enjoyed for their own strengths. I have never understood why this has to be a one or the other argument and can't be about a healthy market where both can exist. There is room on most people's hard drives for both kinds of games and as long as they are enjoyable there is no reason to not play what you enjoy. I'm surely not going to just dismiss a game because it doesn't fit into a precast mold of good game.
Originally posted by boxsnd How many failures does the industry need to realize that it only worked for WoW? It doesn't work for anyone else. 9 years of flops and counting. When will it end?
Point me to a successful well executed sandbox and i'll be right there. sandbox games are failing bigger than themeparks.
Why does the failure of themepark have to have anything to do with sandbox?
May be the next evolution is into something more ARPG, or MOBA like games. Who says sandbox has to come back?
Themepark games aren't failing. The companies that make them get exactly what they want. They get your $60.00 for the box, sometimes a month's sub fee - after that most people quit. Therein lies the problem.
My most recent themepark - FFXIV:ARR - i played for two months after release. I even tried to return after the 2.1 patch. But It isn't a content problem for me though. I just find that grinding a currency through a few different dungeons is the epitome of boring. I expect the same things will happen in Wildstar and ESO. People will buy the box, regardless of what they have heard and/or tested. Then quit within a month or two.
Sandbox fans think 100,000 players is a success but themepark 1 million players is a failure because they dont personally like it lol. All i can say is i am more pumped about this release than any in many years and lets just say it will be a very very fun weekend for me.
Originally posted by boxsnd How many failures does the industry need to realize that it only worked for WoW? It doesn't work for anyone else. 9 years of flops and counting. When will it end?
Point me to a successful well executed sandbox and i'll be right there. sandbox games are failing bigger than themeparks.
Mortal Online... oh wait. Well maybe Darkfall......um um um. I will be back to try again later.
Yes, if ESo and Wildstar tank themeparks will disappear. Not only will developers immediately cease any and all production of themeparks, but it will also be retroactive!!! That's right OP, every themepark will be deleted and all money spent on them refunded twice over.
And to make things even better, you will get a game that specifically tailors to your desires and millions of other players will want to play it because a game built around what you want is exactly what everyone else has been waiting for. So thank you OP, thank you for saving us.
Comments
Seems you got something mixed up here. Are games a failure unless it manages to top WoW profits?
Games are successful in my book if they make a net profit and looking through those glasses there have been quite a few succesful themeparks during the last 9 years.
You or me disliking a game =/= failure of said game.
Themeparks would have been dead 8 years ago if they were financial failures, yet here we are
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
(repeat ad infinitum)
I know you've got your fingers crossed, pal. And I would re-examine your definition of "flop." But, assuming you're right (which you aren't), what does that say about sandbox titles? That's an even longer dry spell, isn't it?
DAoC didn't have questing. PvE-wise it is clearly a WoW clone.
DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann
I can agree that themeparks which completely copy each other are dead if ESO and Wildstar fails.
The genre needs new ideas ASAP.
But FFXI wasn't a Sandbox game.
UO was successful, it topped out at what? 300k or something like that. As someone said earlier though. If either fail it doesn't prove themeparks are failures. It just proves they were bad games.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
And it's RVR model really isn't all that much like DAOC's if you look closely at it.
The real comparison will come when EQ:L and EQ:N launch as F2P from the start. If they succeed wildly and continue to grow year after year then you might see a halt to the current process of launching as sub only at first, only to convert to a f2P model down the road somewhere.
Otherwise, the current model apparently works, because LOTRO, SWTOR, RIFT and a host of others continue to roll on year after year after converting to F2P.
Perhaps the thing we need to change is the thinking that this payment model "progression" is bad, perhaps its the natural way for them to go these days, and are actually the sign of success. SWTOR seems to be making a case for it in my eyes anyways.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Therefore expecting growth being the launch date is not realistic. Not growing beyond launch is not in any way a sign of failure.
I'd bet you be unable to beat Castle Never in Neverwinter and/or Dominus on Merciless in Path of Exile. Both games that feature minimal skill abilities and action combat. So your argument is moot. This archaic notion that something is different is not hardcore has got to stop and stop now. Your personal preference can't influence your facts good sir!
I on the other hand abhor anything tab target or multi-hotbar ability. It is an archaic game design and does not demonstrate anything remotely to skill. All it does is force people to click and mouse turn causing undue hardships in PvE because the average game can't commit to muscle memory more then a handful of keybinds.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
What are you talking about?
It works out great financially with TOR. TOR made $139M just on the cash shop .. with another 500k sub, it is make $229M in a year. In fact, it made by a $200M investment within one year.
+1 I mean seriously…
My own 2 cents is that I bet these games will have a population dive after 2-3 months because they released before they provided end game incentive…..like every game before it has. The only reason WoW and EQ and DAOC didn't flop 2-3 months after release is because there were no alternative to fall back on. And by flop I mean lose the first wave of power gamers who get bored which is by no means flopping.
Main Game: Eldevin (Plat0nic)
2nd Game: Path of Exile (Platonic Hate)
Main Game: Eldevin (Plat0nic)
2nd Game: Path of Exile (Platonic Hate)
The topic creator is conflating too many issues.
You may have a better argument if you said that if Wildstar and TESO fail, then the P2P model has failed. But the most played games right now are all themeparks. WoW, GW2, SWTOR, FFXIV.
In all honesty, your argument was dead on arrival. One word... "WoW." Themepark subscription.
However, I would love to see a HUGE budget sandbox mmo, but how in the world is any company going to give it a chance. You have to convince your investors that taking a chance on this type of game is going to bring in money, while all of the current trends show that the profitable mmo's are ALL themepark.
I'm sorry, but your only hope for sandbox is to have a small company come up with a great game and if it becomes successful, the the big companies will follow and take a chance. Other than that, don't hold your breath... we're going to get themeparks from now and until eternity.
I've never played Sandbox, so I can't comment but i'm still open to it.
ESO won't fail. Just like TOR, you could make a stick figure MMORPG with ES or SW in the title and it will return 10x the investment you put into making the game. Those games will do well because of the name. The argument of how well the game actually plays is pointless, since we all know people will buy products simply because of name and force themselves to like it based off previous success.
Wildstar will be a more accurate prediction of a generic Theme Park game in this market. It really isn't riding off of previous success. It is a game in and of itself.
as long as there are gamers with more desire then time... Themeparks will continue to dominate the market. Especially as the first gen of MMO´s gamers will have less and less time in general for the next 30-40 years.
But otoh i think the Sandbox games will get a massive boost once we reach retirement.
This have been a good conversation
Also, leveling wasn't as fast as it is now. Sure there will always be power levelers, but at the time, most were playing their first MMO and took their time and had fun because not everyone knew what "endgame" was so never rushed to get there.
True but its what Firor wanted for DAoC when he saw that WoW money.
Hence why he fubared DAoC with raiding.
But to the topic at hand Themeparks are going no where. If my girlfriend can stand playing a themepark for more than an hour then they can hold a lot of peoples attention way longer than that regardless of how bad they really are.
Point me to a successful well executed sandbox and i'll be right there. sandbox games are failing bigger than themeparks.
If we could agree on what the term tank means maybe but since we won't no the arguments will go on. And it's not like sandbox's have a great track record the last 10 years either. It's easy to dismiss the ones that have not taken off as flawed or poorly implemented but than that argument can be applied to theme park games just as much.
I'm not a huge open world PVP fan but I do like sandbox games as well as theme park ones. Both bring something to the genre that can be enjoyed for their own strengths. I have never understood why this has to be a one or the other argument and can't be about a healthy market where both can exist. There is room on most people's hard drives for both kinds of games and as long as they are enjoyable there is no reason to not play what you enjoy. I'm surely not going to just dismiss a game because it doesn't fit into a precast mold of good game.
Why does the failure of themepark have to have anything to do with sandbox?
May be the next evolution is into something more ARPG, or MOBA like games. Who says sandbox has to come back?
Themepark games aren't failing. The companies that make them get exactly what they want. They get your $60.00 for the box, sometimes a month's sub fee - after that most people quit. Therein lies the problem.
My most recent themepark - FFXIV:ARR - i played for two months after release. I even tried to return after the 2.1 patch. But It isn't a content problem for me though. I just find that grinding a currency through a few different dungeons is the epitome of boring. I expect the same things will happen in Wildstar and ESO. People will buy the box, regardless of what they have heard and/or tested. Then quit within a month or two.
Mortal Online... oh wait. Well maybe Darkfall......um um um. I will be back to try again later.
Yes, if ESo and Wildstar tank themeparks will disappear. Not only will developers immediately cease any and all production of themeparks, but it will also be retroactive!!! That's right OP, every themepark will be deleted and all money spent on them refunded twice over.
And to make things even better, you will get a game that specifically tailors to your desires and millions of other players will want to play it because a game built around what you want is exactly what everyone else has been waiting for. So thank you OP, thank you for saving us.