Themepark games aren't failing. The companies that make them get exactly what they want. They get your $60.00 for the box, sometimes a month's sub fee - after that most people quit. Therein lies the problem.
My most recent themepark - FFXIV:ARR - i played for two months after release. I even tried to return after the 2.1 patch. But It isn't a content problem for me though. I just find that grinding a currency through a few different dungeons is the epitome of boring. I expect the same things will happen in Wildstar and ESO. People will buy the box, regardless of what they have heard and/or tested. Then quit within a month or two.
I know what you mean, but FFXIV is actually really built for Final Fantasy fans first (say that three times fast) and MMO players second.
If you love Final Fantasy, and the lore, and the series favorites (mogs, chocobos, summons/primals) then you actually love the game. That's why I think FFXIV will retain a very health subscription number.
For that reason, I think TESO will also have a solid subscription number. If will never ever be remotely close to Wow. It may end up being anywhere from 300-600k subscribers.
The issue then remains, is that ENOUGH to cover teh cost of producing the game. If the answer is no, it will go F2P and be designed exactly as SWTOR is now. And may have a great second life. If the answer is yes, it will likely go by way of FFXIV and have content patches every 3-4 months for the loyal subscriber base.
As for Wildstar, that's a WoW clone with a lot of "new tricks" but in the end, it does not have the loyal player base like FFXIV or TESO to hang on to. Wildstar has ot steal away WoW type or mainstream members and try to hold on to them. I think it's going to have a very hard time.
I think, just like FFXIV, if you go into TESO as a Elder Scrolls fan FIRST, then you will enjoy it and likely happily pay the subscription. If you go into it wanting it to be MMO at heart, then I think you will be hopping to the next game first chance you get.
I think with SWTOR, the reason it went F2P is because, though it had a stable subscriber base, it was FAR LOWER than they anticipated to cover teh costs of production, hence why it had to go F2P to meet investor expectations.
In my opinion MMOs are a thing of the past. We will see more online games that borrow mmo elements and open worlds such as Destiny, Star Citizen and The Division.
Originally posted by boxsnd How many failures does the industry need to realize that it only worked for WoW? It doesn't work for anyone else. 9 years of flops and counting. When will it end?
What? So let me get this straight. WoW has 8 million players, SWTOR has 1 million players, we can assume GW2 also has many players, we can also assume the combined populations of Rift/LortO/DDO and other F2P mmos have sizable populations,...compared to EVE's 500k......EVE is the most successful sandbox, and has peaked at a little over 500k...by your definition of faileur, Sandbox was never a success.
So tell me...if ESO and Wildstar "fail", whats left then? By your very own logic, themepark succeeded, then failed, and sandbox never succeeded to begin with..
Posts like these warm my cockles
+1 I mean seriously…
My own 2 cents is that I bet these games will have a population dive after 2-3 months because they released before they provided end game incentive…..like every game before it has. The only reason WoW and EQ and DAOC didn't flop 2-3 months after release is because there were no alternative to fall back on. And by flop I mean lose the first wave of power gamers who get bored which is by no means flopping.
Also, leveling wasn't as fast as it is now. Sure there will always be power levelers, but at the time, most were playing their first MMO and took their time and had fun because not everyone knew what "endgame" was so never rushed to get there.
Excellent point, i have said this before. Remember your first MMO, or even first couple. You didnt rush to end game most likely. You explored zones that actually were horrible and there was nothing to explore but you still did it. You didnt even know what a raid or endgame was. You didnt care, you just enjoyed the content without rushing and you leveled way way slower. I am super guilty of this and now trying to be more of a casual player like i use to be and enjoy the game instead of trying not to get behind like its race for a million bucks or something. Go through and do everything, a lot of games have things you find in zones, SWTOR and datacrons or something, skyshards in ESO, Lotro had the mobs you killed for bonues in zones, etc. Do those things while you level in those zones. Craft as you level, etc, instead of skipping over so much of the content while you level. Just my thoughts.
Yes, if ESo and Wildstar tank themeparks will disappear. Not only will developers immediately cease any and all production of themeparks, but it will also be retroactive!!! That's right OP, every themepark will be deleted and all money spent on them refunded twice over.
And to make things even better, you will get a game that specifically tailors to your desires and millions of other players will want to play it because a game built around what you want is exactly what everyone else has been waiting for. So thank you OP, thank you for saving us.
Why do I get the impression you aren't being serious...
No, I think whoever said that meant to say that ESO's PvE content was identical to WoW's. Not having played ESO at all, or WoW past the starter zone, I won't comment on that claim.
We have gone way past the themepark/sandbox argument, 90% of mmos being made today are utter rubbish. Give me games like Dark Souls anyday, i can pvp and enjoy a deep rewarding game. Roll on Dark Souls 2.
Originally posted by boxsnd How many failures does the industry need to realize that it only worked for WoW? It doesn't work for anyone else. 9 years of flops and counting. When will it end?
These companies have no interest in what you think is fun.
Originally posted by boxsnd How many failures does the industry need to realize that it only worked for WoW? It doesn't work for anyone else. 9 years of flops and counting. When will it end?
How many times do you have to be told that just because a game doesn't reach WOW's levels that it is not a failure?
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx It is not the theme park that's the problem its the 6 button action minimal ui no risk all reward design philosophy these new games are employing . creating easy games for the lowest common denominator that only give 10 hours of game play instead of trying to get you to live a second life in a fantastic new world is the problem.
Pretty much. While many of us have working lives that limit our gameplay time, the methods being employed to make the games more accessible are taking away risk/reward scenarios. Star Citizen is addressing this problem by making it possible for a players character to die permanently, forcing the player to move on to a second character that inherits the possessions of the deceased character. Now someone could choose to make a bunch of clones, but that is beyond the scope of the issue.
There probably isn't a good solution to the Risk / Reward conundrum in earnest, though. The idea is that if a player fails they lose something that took time to acquire, but that lost time is going to have varying degrees of value depending on how much time someone has to play the game.
Any MMO=RPG that is released is considered a failure so you can only play a game you like and not care what the internet thinks. ESO and WS will also be considered failures by the internet.
Originally posted by SavageHorizon We have gone way past the themepark/sandbox argument, 90% of mmos being made today are utter rubbish. Give me games like Dark Souls anyday, i can pvp and enjoy a deep rewarding game. Roll on Dark Souls 2.
Originally posted by Lateris Any MMO=RPG that is released is considered a failure so you can only play a game you like and not care what the internet thinks. ESO and WS will also be considered failures by the internet.
Exactly. WoW is considered on its last leg according to this site because its "down to" 7.8 million lol.
I have a great idea, if you don't like theme park mmos don't play them. Start a discussion about the great sandbox games that exi... oh, that's right... never mind.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
First let's wait for a successful sandbox mmo, polished and with no ffa pvp than you can say theme parks are in trouble.
SWG was more successful than DaoC and UO and was not FFA. The only thing that brought that to an end was trying to make it more themepark. So, there was a successful sandbox that was only behind EQ1 and Lineage 1 in terms of playerbase.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
What goes up must come down.....now if either of these two games have given enough attention to endgame they might keep their first rush of player base.
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx It is not the theme park that's the problem its the 6 button action minimal ui no risk all reward design philosophy these new games are employing . creating easy games for the lowest common denominator that only give 10 hours of game play instead of trying to get you to live a second life in a fantastic new world is the problem.
At some point themepark vs sandbox needs to go away and we need a MMO that blends the best of both.
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”
Comments
I know what you mean, but FFXIV is actually really built for Final Fantasy fans first (say that three times fast) and MMO players second.
If you love Final Fantasy, and the lore, and the series favorites (mogs, chocobos, summons/primals) then you actually love the game. That's why I think FFXIV will retain a very health subscription number.
For that reason, I think TESO will also have a solid subscription number. If will never ever be remotely close to Wow. It may end up being anywhere from 300-600k subscribers.
The issue then remains, is that ENOUGH to cover teh cost of producing the game. If the answer is no, it will go F2P and be designed exactly as SWTOR is now. And may have a great second life. If the answer is yes, it will likely go by way of FFXIV and have content patches every 3-4 months for the loyal subscriber base.
As for Wildstar, that's a WoW clone with a lot of "new tricks" but in the end, it does not have the loyal player base like FFXIV or TESO to hang on to. Wildstar has ot steal away WoW type or mainstream members and try to hold on to them. I think it's going to have a very hard time.
I think, just like FFXIV, if you go into TESO as a Elder Scrolls fan FIRST, then you will enjoy it and likely happily pay the subscription. If you go into it wanting it to be MMO at heart, then I think you will be hopping to the next game first chance you get.
I think with SWTOR, the reason it went F2P is because, though it had a stable subscriber base, it was FAR LOWER than they anticipated to cover teh costs of production, hence why it had to go F2P to meet investor expectations.
DAoC, a WoW-clone? Did I just read that correctly? You do realize that DAoC came before WoW?
Anyways, perfect discussion to drop this new hope for Sandboxes that I've been following for a while:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=224671046
Excellent point, i have said this before. Remember your first MMO, or even first couple. You didnt rush to end game most likely. You explored zones that actually were horrible and there was nothing to explore but you still did it. You didnt even know what a raid or endgame was. You didnt care, you just enjoyed the content without rushing and you leveled way way slower. I am super guilty of this and now trying to be more of a casual player like i use to be and enjoy the game instead of trying not to get behind like its race for a million bucks or something. Go through and do everything, a lot of games have things you find in zones, SWTOR and datacrons or something, skyshards in ESO, Lotro had the mobs you killed for bonues in zones, etc. Do those things while you level in those zones. Craft as you level, etc, instead of skipping over so much of the content while you level. Just my thoughts.
Why do I get the impression you aren't being serious...
No, I think whoever said that meant to say that ESO's PvE content was identical to WoW's. Not having played ESO at all, or WoW past the starter zone, I won't comment on that claim.
These companies have no interest in what you think is fun.
They are only here to make money.
Not to innovate.
Not to raise the bar.
It's sad and that's the way it is.
How many times do you have to be told that just because a game doesn't reach WOW's levels that it is not a failure?
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Pretty much. While many of us have working lives that limit our gameplay time, the methods being employed to make the games more accessible are taking away risk/reward scenarios. Star Citizen is addressing this problem by making it possible for a players character to die permanently, forcing the player to move on to a second character that inherits the possessions of the deceased character. Now someone could choose to make a bunch of clones, but that is beyond the scope of the issue.
There probably isn't a good solution to the Risk / Reward conundrum in earnest, though. The idea is that if a player fails they lose something that took time to acquire, but that lost time is going to have varying degrees of value depending on how much time someone has to play the game.
no ffa pvp? but then it's not a sandbox.
Magic safemode belongs to the fluffy world of themeparks.
This is true, but trivially true. 90% of everything is crap.
Exactly. WoW is considered on its last leg according to this site because its "down to" 7.8 million lol.
I have a great idea, if you don't like theme park mmos don't play them. Start a discussion about the great sandbox games that exi... oh, that's right... never mind.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Main Game: Eldevin (Plat0nic)
2nd Game: Path of Exile (Platonic Hate)
What?
I thought Wildstar IS a themepark. Even the fans themselves said Wildstar is a better copy of WoW.
SWG was more successful than DaoC and UO and was not FFA. The only thing that brought that to an end was trying to make it more themepark. So, there was a successful sandbox that was only behind EQ1 and Lineage 1 in terms of playerbase.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Main Game: Eldevin (Plat0nic)
2nd Game: Path of Exile (Platonic Hate)
qft
--John Ruskin
And we shall call this glorious lovechild a..... sandbox.