Themeparks aren't the probelm, WoW clones are the problem. The two aren't exactly the same thing. Not everyone has the initiative to make their own fun in a sandbox. A lot of people actually like being led around and told what to do and then patted on the head when they follow instructions. I remember a thread on another gaming forum where someone couldn't get into Crusader Kings 2 because it doesn't have specific win conditions.
I personally think the Oculus Rift or whatever actually succeeds in creating VR gaming is going to totally revolutionize MMOs and make the sandbox vs. themepark debate moot but there probably will always be games which are more directed experiences because that's what a lot of gamers seem to like.
Sandbox, themepark isn't really the issue. Knock off is. Duplicating WoW is like looking at the ingredients list on an Eggo Waffle box and using that and that alone to make your own. It won't work but that's what a lot of these knock off's have tried to do.
Originally posted by boxsnd How many failures does the industry need to realize that it only worked for WoW? It doesn't work for anyone else. 9 years of flops and counting. When will it end?
What? So let me get this straight. WoW has 8 million players, SWTOR has 1 million players, we can assume GW2 also has many players, we can also assume the combined populations of Rift/LortO/DDO and other F2P mmos have sizable populations,...compared to EVE's 500k......EVE is the most successful sandbox, and has peaked at a little over 500k...by your definition of faileur, Sandbox was never a success.
So tell me...if ESO and Wildstar "fail", whats left then? By your very own logic, themepark succeeded, then failed, and sandbox never succeeded to begin with..
Posts like these warm my cockles
LOL! That post was a joy to read, and very true.
You, sir, deserve a cookie.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Originally posted by boxsnd How many failures does the industry need to realize that it only worked for WoW? It doesn't work for anyone else. 9 years of flops and counting. When will it end?
What? So let me get this straight. WoW has 8 million players, SWTOR has 1 million players, we can assume GW2 also has many players, we can also assume the combined populations of Rift/LortO/DDO and other F2P mmos have sizable populations,...compared to EVE's 500k......EVE is the most successful sandbox, and has peaked at a little over 500k...by your definition of faileur, Sandbox was never a success.
So tell me...if ESO and Wildstar "fail", whats left then? By your very own logic, themepark succeeded, then failed, and sandbox never succeeded to begin with..
Posts like these warm my cockles
LOL! That post was a joy to read, and very true.
You, sir, deserve a cookie.
Yeh .. facts are sometimes quite inconvenient (to the OP).
Originally posted by boxsnd How many failures does the industry need to realize that it only worked for WoW? It doesn't work for anyone else. 9 years of flops and counting. When will it end?
What? So let me get this straight. WoW has 8 million players, SWTOR has 1 million players, we can assume GW2 also has many players, we can also assume the combined populations of Rift/LortO/DDO and other F2P mmos have sizable populations,...compared to EVE's 500k......EVE is the most successful sandbox, and has peaked at a little over 500k...by your definition of faileur, Sandbox was never a success.
So tell me...if ESO and Wildstar "fail", whats left then? By your very own logic, themepark succeeded, then failed, and sandbox never succeeded to begin with..
Posts like these warm my cockles
LOL! That post was a joy to read, and very true.
You, sir, deserve a cookie.
Yeh .. facts are sometimes quite inconvenient (to the OP).
If those two fail, it will be said that their financial models failed, it won't be down to the fact they are themepark. In fact that story has already been seeded, ready for the fall.
The fact dozens of F2P MMOs don't make the big time every tear will be overlooked and the P2P/B2P nature of the financial model will be declared the culprit.
If the do well, pundits will no doubt be telling us they knew they were going to do great.
However, I would love to see a HUGE budget sandbox mmo, but how in the world is any company going to give it a chance. You have to convince your investors that taking a chance on this type of game is going to bring in money, while all of the current trends show that the profitable mmo's are ALL themepark.
I think it's safe to say that Eve (not a themepark) is still profitable, so that's not entirely true.
But I suspect that a lot of it's profit margin comes from having much lower operating costs than a (competent) themepark would. And when you're working with that basis, it's hard to justify a huge budget project.
Originally posted by boxsnd How many failures does the industry need to realize that it only worked for WoW? It doesn't work for anyone else. 9 years of flops and counting. When will it end?
How many times do you have to be told that just because a game doesn't reach WOW's levels that it is not a failure?
But if it never reaches even 1/10 of WOW's numbers for any length of time can you really call a MMO a success?
In fact, perhaps if a title starts at what ever number, be it 1000 or 1,000,000 million, perhaps the real measure of success is whether or not month after month, year after year they grow their subscription base?
So rather than see it start strong and then all quickly trickle away like most most modern MMO's do because they can't hold player interest, perhaps that's why you can say EVE, and WOW are both successes in their own right, while most other titles fail in some regard. (assuming you are trying to create long term gaming experiences, if you are shooting for single player then the modern model is par for the course)
Sure, F2P has rescued SWTOR, (well, if you can really believe what EA tells you, I don't, too much spin on their numbers) but by an large, while most titles remain running, (RIFT, AOC, TERA), you can't really call them successes, even if they aren't really failing either.
Mostly average performance might be the most positive thing one can say about them.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by boxsnd How many failures does the industry need to realize that it only worked for WoW? It doesn't work for anyone else. 9 years of flops and counting. When will it end?
The problem is a companies definition of failure versus your average internet trolls version.
A company views failure as not making money. From this point of view most games that the average internet troll calls a failure aren't failures.
The internet trolls version of failure is "omg this game didn't kill wow, completely replace my life and help me fill the void where my real life should be."
But if it never reaches even 1/10 of WOW's numbers for any length of time can you really call a MMO a success?
In fact, perhaps if a title starts at what ever number, be it 1000 or 1,000,000 million, perhaps the real measure of success is whether or not month after month, year after year they grow their subscription base?
So rather than see it start strong and then all quickly trickle away like most most modern MMO's do because they can't hold player interest, perhaps that's why you can say EVE, and WOW are both successes in their own right, while most other titles fail in some regard. (assuming you are trying to create long term gaming experiences, if you are shooting for single player then the modern model is par for the course)
Sure, F2P has rescued SWTOR, (well, if you can really believe what EA tells you, I don't, too much spin on their numbers) but by an large, while most titles remain running, (RIFT, AOC, TERA), you can't really call them successes, even if they aren't really failing either.
Mostly average performance might be the most positive thing one can say about them.
The problem is your definition of success.
Those three games all made money and continue to make money. That is the goal of a company when it sets out.
You're so detached from reality that you view success as being the best ever.
So in your eyes every company that isn't at the top of it's industry is a failure.
Originally posted by boxsnd How many failures does the industry need to realize that it only worked for WoW? It doesn't work for anyone else. 9 years of flops and counting. When will it end?
that games are financial successful , today on mmo market dominate asocial/solo players.They play every new mmo's as SP games 1-3 months than move on another new mmo.
But if it never reaches even 1/10 of WOW's numbers for any length of time can you really call a MMO a success?
In fact, perhaps if a title starts at what ever number, be it 1000 or 1,000,000 million, perhaps the real measure of success is whether or not month after month, year after year they grow their subscription base?
So rather than see it start strong and then all quickly trickle away like most most modern MMO's do because they can't hold player interest, perhaps that's why you can say EVE, and WOW are both successes in their own right, while most other titles fail in some regard. (assuming you are trying to create long term gaming experiences, if you are shooting for single player then the modern model is par for the course)
Sure, F2P has rescued SWTOR, (well, if you can really believe what EA tells you, I don't, too much spin on their numbers) but by an large, while most titles remain running, (RIFT, AOC, TERA), you can't really call them successes, even if they aren't really failing either.
Mostly average performance might be the most positive thing one can say about them.
The problem is your definition of success.
Those three games all made money and continue to make money. That is the goal of a company when it sets out.
You're so detached from reality that you view success as being the best ever.
So in your eyes every company that isn't at the top of it's industry is a failure.
Is it really just profit? Or is it much more a good profit margin and a healthy growth of your company?
Look at SWTOR, or any other game considered failure by a lot of people. They may get back there development cost at some point of time, but all of them failed to grow, and in most cases the parent company had to cut back developer for said game. Now just a skeleton crew, and very few from the development team are working on SWTOR at the moment.. they may have made there money back.. but thats about it. And maybe they were just able to get there money back, because they laid off almost all of there developers for that specific game.
Now look at the tiny EvE. CCP started with around 20 developer as EvE was released. Now after steadily growing(both EvE and CCP), CCP does have over 150 developers. So you can't say EvE is not a success. And you can't say that CCP does have profit from other projects, more the contrary, because DUST is much more of a financial failure, too. But CCP could afford that failure, because of the success of EvE.
The same is true for WoW just in a complete other dimension.
And then look again at Sigil(Vanguard), Mythic(Warhammer), Funcom(Age of Conan), Bioware(SWTOR), and other so called failures. Funcom is barely alive, Sigil/Vanguard was bought/take over from SoE, laid off and finally closed, and EA more or less closed both Mythic and Bioware and laid of a lot of the developers(could have said almost all, too). How can you not call the reason for the massive lay off call a failure?
Yeap.. they may have get most of their investment back.. but all of them were not profitable enough that the development team created them could prosper.
But nevertheless all of that does not really say anything about Themepark vs Sandbox, because you really have to look into any game differently. a game is a failure, because it just was not good enough, not fun enough, not new/innovative enough or whatever other reason. And we all know that we really have got more than enough Themeparks very similar to each other and want something different.. and this different MMO could be a sandbox, or a different themepark or something completely new. And this feeling of the majority of MMO vets will not change either ESO and Wildstar will fail or not.
Originally posted by boxsnd How many failures does the industry need to realize that it only worked for WoW? It doesn't work for anyone else. 9 years of flops and counting. When will it end?
They will not "tank." Millions of players will flock to them, making them hundreds of millions of dollars. They will be considered financial successes.
Can you name 10 (there are about 600 MMOs on this site's listing) recent (released in the past 7 years, aka: New MMOs) "themepark" MMOs that have "tanked" financially? Remember, they have to be closed down, for the company was NOT making money on them. Not MMOs that went P2P to F2P or Freemium. Most of those are still sunning, aka: MAKING MONEY.
While the games put out today are nothing *I* desire to play, that does NOT make them flops, failures, or any other personal preference short coming.
The ONLY way publishers will STOP this nonsense is for us gamers to STOP buying everything they crap out. Then again, there are millions of players enjoying these "new games" so this will be tough to accomplish.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Rusque Yes, if ESo and Wildstar tank themeparks will disappear. Not only will developers immediately cease any and all production of themeparks, but it will also be retroactive!!! That's right OP, every themepark will be deleted and all money spent on them refunded twice over.And to make things even better, you will get a game that specifically tailors to your desires and millions of other players will want to play it because a game built around what you want is exactly what everyone else has been waiting for. So thank you OP, thank you for saving us.
Well Done! Thanks for the smiles
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by boxsnd How many failures does the industry need to realize that it only worked for WoW? It doesn't work for anyone else. 9 years of flops and counting. When will it end?
Games are produced by companies, while companies focus on their turn of investment. Do you think if it's so bad, they would invest in it? They do risk calculations and even if their worst case is comming in they will do a positive return on investment.
Youre post is more a thought of a single individual person. Sure some might share your point, but aslong there is the mainstream going for themeparks there won't be a change.
Originally posted by boxsnd How many failures does the industry need to realize that it only worked for WoW? It doesn't work for anyone else. 9 years of flops and counting. When will it end?
Nope it just means this genre is too costly to make a quality game.The tactics used of late are incredibly lame,yet thousands are falling for them.I am not going to school people on what to watch for,that is their problem.Go ahead and buy founder's i mean ahem cough RMT purchases,it's your fault not mine.
Personally i am having some fun playing FFXIV,no not nearly as in depth as my fave FFXI but it is a decent game with good graphics and decently organized.
Judging by what i recently read by Square Enix we will maybe never again see a triple A with Depth and quality,it is just too costly.That is why you see so many shortcuts in games now like no moving doors or ANY movers,no starting cities ect ect.
Just look at Blizzard and Wow,you think they couldn't have added housing years ago with all the millions they made?If Ws can do it Wow most certainly can and EQ2 did it even though instanced but with better graphics.Problem is in EQ2 you had to pay and WS is using super cheap graphics to offset the cost.
FFXIV housing is open but in an instanced zone,Archeage is again the same thing,so you won't see devs open this genre up for cost.Even Landmark is limiting what you can do and where it is ALWAYS about cost $$$$.
The ONLY way i see a great QUALITY game come out is if the developer is not afraid to charge a $25 sub fee but that asking price alone may be too steep and scare many potential customers away even though could be worth the investment.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by boxsnd How many failures does the industry need to realize that it only worked for WoW? It doesn't work for anyone else. 9 years of flops and counting. When will it end?
that games are financial successful , today on mmo market dominate asocial/solo players.They play every new mmo's as SP games 1-3 months than move on another new mmo.
Yeh ... I pretty much do that, and mixing playing MMOs and SP games. There is little point to distinguish between them when i am having fun.
Comments
Yes and no.
It has sandbox elements such as player housing.
-Azure Prower
http://www.youtube.com/AzurePrower
no it means MMO's are a thing in the past. Farmville are the thing for the future.
I get what you are trying to say. But with no competition, at least "some" low budget sandbox should be doing well.
Themeparks aren't the probelm, WoW clones are the problem. The two aren't exactly the same thing. Not everyone has the initiative to make their own fun in a sandbox. A lot of people actually like being led around and told what to do and then patted on the head when they follow instructions. I remember a thread on another gaming forum where someone couldn't get into Crusader Kings 2 because it doesn't have specific win conditions.
I personally think the Oculus Rift or whatever actually succeeds in creating VR gaming is going to totally revolutionize MMOs and make the sandbox vs. themepark debate moot but there probably will always be games which are more directed experiences because that's what a lot of gamers seem to like.
And please stop with the UO was successful thing.
Pac Man was successful too. But I doubt Pac Man will sell millions of copy on your xbox in year 2014.
You might as well say swtor is successful. They probalby make much more money than UO.
LOL! That post was a joy to read, and very true.
You, sir, deserve a cookie.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Yeh .. facts are sometimes quite inconvenient (to the OP).
Asheron's Call.
Haha, they are indeed.
If those two fail, it will be said that their financial models failed, it won't be down to the fact they are themepark. In fact that story has already been seeded, ready for the fall.
The fact dozens of F2P MMOs don't make the big time every tear will be overlooked and the P2P/B2P nature of the financial model will be declared the culprit.
If the do well, pundits will no doubt be telling us they knew they were going to do great.
I think it's safe to say that Eve (not a themepark) is still profitable, so that's not entirely true.
But I suspect that a lot of it's profit margin comes from having much lower operating costs than a (competent) themepark would. And when you're working with that basis, it's hard to justify a huge budget project.
But if it never reaches even 1/10 of WOW's numbers for any length of time can you really call a MMO a success?
In fact, perhaps if a title starts at what ever number, be it 1000 or 1,000,000 million, perhaps the real measure of success is whether or not month after month, year after year they grow their subscription base?
So rather than see it start strong and then all quickly trickle away like most most modern MMO's do because they can't hold player interest, perhaps that's why you can say EVE, and WOW are both successes in their own right, while most other titles fail in some regard. (assuming you are trying to create long term gaming experiences, if you are shooting for single player then the modern model is par for the course)
Sure, F2P has rescued SWTOR, (well, if you can really believe what EA tells you, I don't, too much spin on their numbers) but by an large, while most titles remain running, (RIFT, AOC, TERA), you can't really call them successes, even if they aren't really failing either.
Mostly average performance might be the most positive thing one can say about them.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The problem is a companies definition of failure versus your average internet trolls version.
A company views failure as not making money. From this point of view most games that the average internet troll calls a failure aren't failures.
The internet trolls version of failure is "omg this game didn't kill wow, completely replace my life and help me fill the void where my real life should be."
If housing is considered as sandbox element, then FFXIV ARR is also a sandbox.
The problem is your definition of success.
Those three games all made money and continue to make money. That is the goal of a company when it sets out.
You're so detached from reality that you view success as being the best ever.
So in your eyes every company that isn't at the top of it's industry is a failure.
that games are financial successful , today on mmo market dominate asocial/solo players.They play every new mmo's as SP games 1-3 months than move on another new mmo.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
Is it really just profit? Or is it much more a good profit margin and a healthy growth of your company?
Look at SWTOR, or any other game considered failure by a lot of people. They may get back there development cost at some point of time, but all of them failed to grow, and in most cases the parent company had to cut back developer for said game. Now just a skeleton crew, and very few from the development team are working on SWTOR at the moment.. they may have made there money back.. but thats about it. And maybe they were just able to get there money back, because they laid off almost all of there developers for that specific game.
Now look at the tiny EvE. CCP started with around 20 developer as EvE was released. Now after steadily growing(both EvE and CCP), CCP does have over 150 developers. So you can't say EvE is not a success. And you can't say that CCP does have profit from other projects, more the contrary, because DUST is much more of a financial failure, too. But CCP could afford that failure, because of the success of EvE.
The same is true for WoW just in a complete other dimension.
And then look again at Sigil(Vanguard), Mythic(Warhammer), Funcom(Age of Conan), Bioware(SWTOR), and other so called failures. Funcom is barely alive, Sigil/Vanguard was bought/take over from SoE, laid off and finally closed, and EA more or less closed both Mythic and Bioware and laid of a lot of the developers(could have said almost all, too). How can you not call the reason for the massive lay off call a failure?
Yeap.. they may have get most of their investment back.. but all of them were not profitable enough that the development team created them could prosper.
But nevertheless all of that does not really say anything about Themepark vs Sandbox, because you really have to look into any game differently. a game is a failure, because it just was not good enough, not fun enough, not new/innovative enough or whatever other reason. And we all know that we really have got more than enough Themeparks very similar to each other and want something different.. and this different MMO could be a sandbox, or a different themepark or something completely new. And this feeling of the majority of MMO vets will not change either ESO and Wildstar will fail or not.
Can you name 10 (there are about 600 MMOs on this site's listing) recent (released in the past 7 years, aka: New MMOs) "themepark" MMOs that have "tanked" financially? Remember, they have to be closed down, for the company was NOT making money on them. Not MMOs that went P2P to F2P or Freemium. Most of those are still sunning, aka: MAKING MONEY.
While the games put out today are nothing *I* desire to play, that does NOT make them flops, failures, or any other personal preference short coming.
The ONLY way publishers will STOP this nonsense is for us gamers to STOP buying everything they crap out. Then again, there are millions of players enjoying these "new games" so this will be tough to accomplish.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Games are produced by companies, while companies focus on their turn of investment. Do you think if it's so bad, they would invest in it? They do risk calculations and even if their worst case is comming in they will do a positive return on investment.
Youre post is more a thought of a single individual person. Sure some might share your point, but aslong there is the mainstream going for themeparks there won't be a change.
Yes. At the end of the day video games are investments by companies. If they make a profit they succeed. If they lose money they fail.
That is how success is generally defined in business.
Nope it just means this genre is too costly to make a quality game.The tactics used of late are incredibly lame,yet thousands are falling for them.I am not going to school people on what to watch for,that is their problem.Go ahead and buy founder's i mean ahem cough RMT purchases,it's your fault not mine.
Personally i am having some fun playing FFXIV,no not nearly as in depth as my fave FFXI but it is a decent game with good graphics and decently organized.
Judging by what i recently read by Square Enix we will maybe never again see a triple A with Depth and quality,it is just too costly.That is why you see so many shortcuts in games now like no moving doors or ANY movers,no starting cities ect ect.
Just look at Blizzard and Wow,you think they couldn't have added housing years ago with all the millions they made?If Ws can do it Wow most certainly can and EQ2 did it even though instanced but with better graphics.Problem is in EQ2 you had to pay and WS is using super cheap graphics to offset the cost.
FFXIV housing is open but in an instanced zone,Archeage is again the same thing,so you won't see devs open this genre up for cost.Even Landmark is limiting what you can do and where it is ALWAYS about cost $$$$.
The ONLY way i see a great QUALITY game come out is if the developer is not afraid to charge a $25 sub fee but that asking price alone may be too steep and scare many potential customers away even though could be worth the investment.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Yeh ... I pretty much do that, and mixing playing MMOs and SP games. There is little point to distinguish between them when i am having fun.