If your game has complex mechanics then it needs a comprehensive UI rather than leaving so much to guess work.
Secondly, PvP type MMMORPG players are always looking for a competetive advantage. If they can get the drop on you via the use of a certain mod, you can bet your last penny they are going to and they will zero sympathy for your cries if you have access to the same options and opportunities that they do. but choose not top use them.
You all seem to say you want competetive PvP but that means at least embracing the competetive PvP mindset.
I agree.
When combat information is hidden about your opponent, the more the combat moves from being skill based to luck based.
If you have a competitive mindset, mods will not kill this game. Lack of them will.
I believe saying it will kill the game is quite excessive, however many people will be upset if Zenimax take it too far or don't restrict it enough. One of the games great features and many will agree, especially TES fans, is that the UI isnt cluttering your screen and obstructing 75% of your view (like some mmos). This allows the game to be alot more immersive, which is how it should be.
Hearing about some of the mods, I think they are fine. Cosmetic UI tweaks and inventory/loot mods are fine. However anything that severely breaks the immersion of the world exploration and combat I don't agree with. Basically any mod or a multitude of mods that detract from immersion or make the combat more about tables and graphs over the visual animation/cues in the game are a no-no. Having said that, its fine if some people want to play like that, and of course its "optional" so I won't have to.
However, if it becomes too extreme like WoW for PvE or giving significant advantages in PvP that is going too far. Its fine for the RvR to be competitive. I like a certain amount of competition. But if were talking efficiency mods and E-Sports style, I'm out. I want to enjoy Cyrodil as an immersive war between the factions in tes, not some arena leet skills stuff. Cod, Starcraft, LoL: there are plenty of those games out there, we don't need TES going that direction, please....
Even though I can appreciate the desire to provide a streamlined, no intrusive, immersion increasing UI, there is no point if the detriment it brings to actual gameplay makes life harder.
None seems to want to answer my question for example, does the default UI in ESO display buffs / debuffs / states or not?
Even though I can appreciate the desire to provide a streamlined, no intrusive, immersion increasing UI, there is no point if the detriment it brings to actual gameplay makes life harder.
None seems to want to answer my question for example, does the default UI in ESO display buffs / debuffs / states or not?
Driz
I understand that somethings are just "basic necessities" in a game's UI like the buff states (assuming the buff isnt shown on your chracters model somehow).
My point is where do you draw the line as there can always be a mod to make this or that easier. Where does it end? And how far should until a game doesn't even resemble itself or its original design/implementation anymore
What bout a mod that auto-sprints or flashes a little icon that tells you to block, etc...
Most the info (buffs, de-buffs, casting prompt etc) that the addons shown so far provide is info already in the UI if you know what you are looking at/for.
The only exception is de-buff timers, and tbh the games UI should be able to show this (along with combat info, scrolling or not) as standard just like every single successful mmo does. The fact that you can display this info in an easily readable way means that addons are a requirement for MANY people, and guess what they are completely optional too! So if you don't like it don't use it (like I say if you know what your looking at/for you have access to most the info anyway)
Why do people spout that more options are good then turn around and say well if you want addons that option shouldn't be allowed?
Main problem with addons is you don't have to use them on the surface, but when it goes deeper the same problem arises as with guide videos. People want you to use them and kick you if you don't, just like "watch the guide on youtube first!"-kickers. So sooener or later you are forced to use them. Also if devs need to adjust encounters so they stay challenging even with addons, those without are forced to use them, too because else they can't do the new encounters.
Most the info (buffs, de-buffs, casting prompt etc) that the addons shown so far provide is info already in the UI if you know what you are looking at/for.
The only exception is de-buff timers, and tbh the games UI should be able to show this (along with combat info, scrolling or not) as standard just like every single successful mmo does. The fact that you can display this info in an easily readable way means that addons are a requirement for MANY people, and guess what they are completely optional too! So if you don't like it don't use it (like I say if you know what your looking at/for you have access to most the info anyway)
Why do people spout that more options are good then turn around and say well if you want addons that option shouldn't be allowed?
Thanks for clarifying.
So this is an example of lazy development. If the devs are having the debuff mechanic with traditional timers then they should damn well code a display for it into the UI. Or do they expect us to simply guess when the time is due to expire? Count it down inside our heads whilst playing perhaps?
It does not have to be flashy or intrusive or immersion breaking but how can they expect us to play with and manage a mechanic like a debuff timer if they then give us no way to interpret it?
They obviously have the data available in the API so it IS there, ready for use by players and was obviously intended to be so. They were just too lazy to add a display frame for it probably thinking "Oh well, the community can finish that little job for us" and we can use the rhetoric of "immersive UI" to dismiss all of the things we were too lazy to do.
This type of lazy approach to UIs is the main reason addons have become such a necessity. Like I said if the UI was even half way decent we would not even be having this conversation. The UI is one the very first things to come under scrutiny in a MMORPG, you would have hoped the ESO devs would have learnt from the mistakes of previous games
Interestingly enough, Wildstar have just done a revamp of their own UI...
I felt that the previous UI was too cluttered but the new one is de-cluttered, much less intrusive, more streamlined, has full customisation options even down to the ability to select each frame and toggle where is is turned on or off during combat. This will allow you to dynamically alter the level of data presented on your UI dependent on what you are doing in game at the time,
And guess what? Wildstar's devs are skilled enough to display de-buff timers too!!
That is an example of a non-lazy approach to refining your UI, whereas ESO are content to just let the paying community drag their effort to an acceptable level via community mods
Most the info (buffs, de-buffs, casting prompt etc) that the addons shown so far provide is info already in the UI if you know what you are looking at/for.
The only exception is de-buff timers, and tbh the games UI should be able to show this (along with combat info, scrolling or not) as standard just like every single successful mmo does. The fact that you can display this info in an easily readable way means that addons are a requirement for MANY people, and guess what they are completely optional too! So if you don't like it don't use it (like I say if you know what your looking at/for you have access to most the info anyway)
Why do people spout that more options are good then turn around and say well if you want addons that option shouldn't be allowed?
Thanks for clarifying.
So this is an example of lazy development. If the devs are having the debuff mechanic with traditional timers then they should damn well code a display for it into the UI. Or do they expect us to simply guess when the time is due to expire? Count it down inside our heads whilst playing perhaps?
It does not have to be flashy or intrusive or immersion breaking but how can they expect us to play with and manage a mechanic like a debuff timer if they then give us no way to interpret it?
They obviously have the data available in the API so it IS there, ready for use by players and was obviously intended to be so. They were just too lazy to add a display frame for it probably thinking "Oh well, the community can finish that little job for us" and we can use the rhetoric of "immersive UI" to dismiss all of the things we were too lazy to do.
This type of lazy approach to UIs is the main reason addons have become such a necessity. Like I said if the UI was even half way decent we would not even be having this conversation. The UI is one the very first things to come under scrutiny in a MMORPG, you would have hoped the ESO devs would have learnt from the mistakes of previous games
Driz
Nonsense, lol
If the UI was "even halfway decent", everyone would still be here crying just as loudly about the fact that the UI was "only half way done".
Is there really any point in a developer spending much time on UI development when 50% of the players will prefer to choose their own from the huge selection of Add-On's that will be developed anyway ?
Frankly, I wouldn't give a damn if the game came with a single button on the screen, labelled "Load Add-On here", as long as there is a wide selection of Add-On's available. I'll be using an Add-On (or multiple Add-On's) regardless.
The problem is not with the Add-On's, it's how they are used. Nobody can "force" me to use an add-on I don't want to use. Besides, if the information is available in the client, somebody will find a way to harvest it and display it. May as well be upfront about it and allow all players equal access via an authorized API.
Most the info (buffs, de-buffs, casting prompt etc) that the addons shown so far provide is info already in the UI if you know what you are looking at/for.
The only exception is de-buff timers, and tbh the games UI should be able to show this (along with combat info, scrolling or not) as standard just like every single successful mmo does. The fact that you can display this info in an easily readable way means that addons are a requirement for MANY people, and guess what they are completely optional too! So if you don't like it don't use it (like I say if you know what your looking at/for you have access to most the info anyway)
Why do people spout that more options are good then turn around and say well if you want addons that option shouldn't be allowed?
Thanks for clarifying.
So this is an example of lazy development. If the devs are having the debuff mechanic with traditional timers then they should damn well code a display for it into the UI. Or do they expect us to simply guess when the time is due to expire? Count it down inside our heads whilst playing perhaps?
It does not have to be flashy or intrusive or immersion breaking but how can they expect us to play with and manage a mechanic like a debuff timer if they then give us no way to interpret it?
They obviously have the data available in the API so it IS there, ready for use by players and was obviously intended to be so. They were just too lazy to add a display frame for it probably thinking "Oh well, the community can finish that little job for us" and we can use the rhetoric of "immersive UI" to dismiss all of the things we were too lazy to do.
This type of lazy approach to UIs is the main reason addons have become such a necessity. Like I said if the UI was even half way decent we would not even be having this conversation. The UI is one the very first things to come under scrutiny in a MMORPG, you would have hoped the ESO devs would have learnt from the mistakes of previous games
Driz
Nonsense, lol
If the UI was "even halfway decent", everyone would still be here crying just as loudly about the fact that the UI was "only half way done".
Is there really any point in a developer spending much time on UI development when 50% of the players will prefer to choose their own from the huge selection of Add-On's that will be developed anyway ?
Frankly, I wouldn't give a damn if the game came with a single button on the screen, labelled "Load Add-On here", as long as there is a wide selection of Add-On's available. I'll be using an Add-On (or multiple Add-On's) regardless.
The problem is not with the Add-On's, it's how they are used. Nobody can "force" me to use an add-on I don't want to use. Besides, if the information is available in the client, somebody will find a way to harvest it and display it. May as well be upfront about it and allow all players equal access via an authorized API.
I couldn't agree more
That being said, I disagree with the sentiment that a UI is not that important in the grand scheme of things. Look at every new MMORPG to be released, the UI is one of the first things to go under the spotlight.
Look at the default UI in SWTOR at release, it was terribly bloated and had zero customisation, the devs got panned for it by the community until they eventually added in customisable presets.
The point I am making is that many posters complain about being forced to use an abundence of addons, if the devs launched the game with a good quality UI, one that for example, was capable of displaying de-buff timers just to highlight one specific, then the vast number of required addons would be rendered obsolete as the base game would mean they are not even necessary.
Putting more than a token effort into the UI design and implementation would cut down on a lot of the "need" for addons, sure some would still be required but the vast majority would not, making the anti-addons crowd feel a little more comfortable with the remaining addons....
If a game has a few must have addons that fine, if a game has a plethora of must have addons it's lazy development imo.
Something important to remember is most ES fans do not use a addons/mods in the single player titles. ES fans make up a large number of Zen's target audience.
Most of the sales for Skyrim (as an example) went to console players. Only 19% of the sold copies of Skyrim were PC and only a certain percentage of those players bothered with 3rd party addons and mods.
A certain group of the MMO crowd are the real addon addicts and those come from a select group of games. Games that time and time again have been emulated to such a degree that they lose most of their playerbase in a few short months.
It is my hope that Zen sticks with their design concepts and puts some limits on what we can and can not do with addons. Since the more addons that are piled onto this game (from the videos I have seen). The more this game looks exactly like the games they are trying to set themselves apart from.
They gave us their vision and then they opened up to much for addon creation. Now they have to strike some sort of middle ground or it will bite them in the butt.
Something important to remember is most ES fans do not use a addons/mods in the single player titles. ES fans make up a large number of Zen's target audience.
Most of the sales for Skyrim (as an example) went to console players. Only 19% of the sold copies of Skyrim were PC and only a certain percentage of those players bothered with 3rd party addons and mods.
While I am fine with some addons in ESO. I think the developers need to keep a close eye on this. Else they will fall into the same traps and mistakes as past developers. Where they have to design their content around addons, instead of their original vision for the game.
I would disagree with two things here:
1. Massively powerful community mods are one of the defining characteristics of ES games and always have been. Just lookf for example at the sheer number of mods for Oblivion that do everything from mod the UI and cosmetic features through to adding completely new zones and manor/estates for player housing....Look at the incredible number of not only skins and graphic mods but also the number of core game changing mods available on somewhere like Elder Scrolls Nexus and then tell me that mod use is a minority in the series.
That is simply disingenuous at best. IF not for the modding community the ES franchise would not be what it is today, particularly as every ES game launched with a biblical amount of significant bugs that were only ever fixed by the community themselves.
The a-typical type of ES mod is the "Stick all the best gear in the game in a backpack and leave it outside my starting zone" type of mod which would be obviously game breaking in an MMORPG but this the type of mod that has become totally mainstream in the traditional ES games.
2. No developer of any MMORPG that I have ever experienced has developed their additional content "around" addons. That is simply not true. Even games that provide comprehensive data access via their API's have always operated on a policy of mods are supported but not endorsed, the devs in no way develop content with the mods in mind or even a care whether their latest patch is compatible with mods.
Almost every single patch they released for WAR broke almost every single mod there was and you then had to wait a few days for the mod maker to fix it to work with the latest patch. All of this faux indignation around developers somehow being held hostage and constrained by having to develop in harmony with rogue addons is nonsense and has never ever happened in my experience.
In my experience, even where devs are tolerant of mods you are lucky if they do not break them with almosy every patch or maintenance release...
I went through my entire WoW career (PvP and otherwise) without a single mode that wasn't aesthetic (Bar mods and the like).
They only kill the game for the paranoid and those who choose to do things with people who knit-pick Gearscore and DPS meters. And if the mods didn't exist, they'd find other "reasons" to shut you out.
I prefer to just go play and have fun, add-on's and assholes be damned.
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus I hope they step away from mods that do anthing else then revisualising the UI
yeah i am ok with those UI addons. On the other hand, if they allow content mods (like Skyrim) then there would be no reason to have a subscription if the community is the one making content.
LUA-script addons was mentioned from the start which can be seen in this mmorpg article from summer 2012. "Matt assured us that the UI will be fully customizable: they'll be supporting mods from the get go with LUA."
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
Something important to remember is most ES fans do not use a addons/mods in the single player titles. ES fans make up a large number of Zen's target audience.
Most of the sales for Skyrim (as an example) went to console players. Only 19% of the sold copies of Skyrim were PC and only a certain percentage of those players bothered with 3rd party addons and mods.
While I am fine with some addons in ESO. I think the developers need to keep a close eye on this. Else they will fall into the same traps and mistakes as past developers. Where they have to design their content around addons, instead of their original vision for the game.
I would disagree with two things here:
1. Massively powerful community mods are one of the defining characteristics of ES games and always have been. Just lookf for example at the sheer number of mods for Oblivion that do everything from mod the UI and cosmetic features through to adding completely new zones and manor/estates for player housing....Look at the incredible number of not only skins and graphic mods but also the number of core game changing mods available on somewhere like Elder Scrolls Nexus and then tell me that mod use is a minority in the series.
That is simply disingenuous at best. IF not for the modding community the ES franchise would not be what it is today, particularly as every ES game launched with a biblical amount of significant bugs that were only ever fixed by the community themselves.
The a-typical type of ES mod is the "Stick all the best gear in the game in a backpack and leave it outside my starting zone" type of mod which would be obviously game breaking in an MMORPG but this the type of mod that has become totally mainstream in the traditional ES games.
2. No developer of any MMORPG that I have ever experienced has developed their additional content "around" addons. That is simply not true. Even games that provide comprehensive data access via their API's have always operated on a policy of mods are supported but not endorsed, the devs in no way develop content with the mods in mind or even a care whether their latest patch is compatible with mods.
Almost every single patch they released for WAR broke almost every single mod there was and you then had to wait a few days for the mod maker to fix it to work with the latest patch. All of this faux indignation around developers somehow being held hostage and constrained by having to develop in harmony with rogue addons is nonsense and has never ever happened in my experience.
In my experience, even where devs are tolerant of mods you are lucky if they do not break them with almosy every patch or maintenance release...
1. Then you glazed over what I said. Regardless of how many mods are out there (and I adore many of those mods). That still makes up a small portion of the overall fan base for Skyrim. Most people that played this game never installed a mod.
Skryim Sales By Platform
XBox 360
59 %
Playstation 3
27 %
PC
14 %
Having said that... the console stuff is very secondary to most of what I say on these boards.
2. Content in WOW has most certainly been influenced by mods. At first they made some content around them. Later on they intentionally broke a few addons. While other times they added the addon functionality to the base UI. That most certainly did effect development.
There is another very similar thread in this same forum, but I would like to pitch in here as well. I decided to write an email to ZeniMax Online which tackles the entire issue of CERTAIN add-ons providing a clear advantage to its users, making it an indirect necessity for competitive play. Here's what I wrote:
Dear ZeniMax Online,
I am a beta tester for The Elder Scrolls Online and am eagerly awaiting for the game to be released. However, I am sending this email with the purpose of raising the development team's awareness of a critical issue that will most definitely have bold consequences on game play.
Before anything, however, I would like to state that one of the things that sets ESO apart is that it's an Elder Scrolls title. Meaning, pretty much every aspect of the game seems influenced by the series in one way or another. The issue at hand deals with the UI, heavily inspired by Skyrim and also by an idea that players should pay attention to the action, not the UI elements. With that, ZeniMax Online developed a truly authentic Elder Scrolls UI, that feels immersive, non-intrusive, and focuses the player's attention on the world itself. All that work and your vision, however, will go to waste depending on how you tackle the following issue.
During the beta testing phase, some users are making use of add-ons that completely disregard this entire notion of an Elder Scrolls-like UI. These add-ons not only provide information in an extremely evident manner, they also provide vital information about the enemy players, which would otherwise not be possible with the default UI. Specifically, there is an add-on that allows players to see the enemy's exact amount of Health, Magicka, and Stamina, what the enemy is casting and when to interrupt, and what buffs and debuffs the enemy currently has. This is without a doubt a HUGE advantage to anyone who makes use of it. The problem is, in order to play competitively, not using these add-ons would be extremely detrimental to one's performance, making it almost a necessity.
With the establishment of such, the player once again goes back a step to what typical MMO offers, where the focus during combat is on the UI and not the world or the action. The game loses a large part of what makes it an Elder Scrolls title if such tools are allowed and made available, for they will become invaluable for anyone who desires an edge (which most gamers do).
It is true that modifications to the game have always been a large part of The Elder Scrolls series (at least the PC version). With that said, though, in a scenario where players play with and against each other, where competition is ubiquitous, certain limitations need to be imposed unless you desire all your players with a competitive focus to not use the game's default UI. Not only that, these add-ons share almost no resemblance to the mods present for games like Skyrim. It is a poor argument to say that because Skyrim and other single player Elder Scrolls titles can be modified, then ESO must also allow for add-ons that influence the game's competitive nature.
Please, I beg you to revisit your attitude towards add-ons before the game releases. If you do not impose limitations and restrictions on what can or can't be done with these, then you establish a situation where you force you player-base to play the game with a cluttered, non-Elder Scrolls-like UI in order to compete.
I wish you all the best, and hope you demonstrate great judgment when tackling this issue.
Something important to remember is most ES fans do not use a addons/mods in the single player titles. ES fans make up a large number of Zen's target audience.
Most of the sales for Skyrim (as an example) went to console players. Only 19% of the sold copies of Skyrim were PC and only a certain percentage of those players bothered with 3rd party addons and mods.
While I am fine with some addons in ESO. I think the developers need to keep a close eye on this. Else they will fall into the same traps and mistakes as past developers. Where they have to design their content around addons, instead of their original vision for the game.
I would disagree with two things here:
1. Massively powerful community mods are one of the defining characteristics of ES games and always have been. Just lookf for example at the sheer number of mods for Oblivion that do everything from mod the UI and cosmetic features through to adding completely new zones and manor/estates for player housing....Look at the incredible number of not only skins and graphic mods but also the number of core game changing mods available on somewhere like Elder Scrolls Nexus and then tell me that mod use is a minority in the series.
That is simply disingenuous at best. IF not for the modding community the ES franchise would not be what it is today, particularly as every ES game launched with a biblical amount of significant bugs that were only ever fixed by the community themselves.
The a-typical type of ES mod is the "Stick all the best gear in the game in a backpack and leave it outside my starting zone" type of mod which would be obviously game breaking in an MMORPG but this the type of mod that has become totally mainstream in the traditional ES games.
2. No developer of any MMORPG that I have ever experienced has developed their additional content "around" addons. That is simply not true. Even games that provide comprehensive data access via their API's have always operated on a policy of mods are supported but not endorsed, the devs in no way develop content with the mods in mind or even a care whether their latest patch is compatible with mods.
Almost every single patch they released for WAR broke almost every single mod there was and you then had to wait a few days for the mod maker to fix it to work with the latest patch. All of this faux indignation around developers somehow being held hostage and constrained by having to develop in harmony with rogue addons is nonsense and has never ever happened in my experience.
In my experience, even where devs are tolerant of mods you are lucky if they do not break them with almosy every patch or maintenance release...
1. Then you glazed over what I said. Regardless of how many mods are out there (and I adore many of those mods). That still makes up a small portion of the overall fan base for Skyrim. Most people that played this game never installed a mod.
Skryim Sales By Platform
XBox 360
59 %
Playstation 3
27 %
PC
14 %
Having said that... the console stuff is very secondary to most of what I say on these boards.
2. Content in WOW has most certainly been influenced by mods. At first they made some content around them. Later on they intentionally broke a few addons. While other times they added the addon functionality to the base UI. That most certainly did effect development.
I didnt gloss over anything, you are simply trying to paint a picture that mods have a far more wide reaching impact than they do.
Devs may occasionally incorporate functionality from mods where they are so well done that it's a no brainer to copy them. A bit like how most MMORPGs get most of their ideas from copying the best of the rest.
Devs have never been in a situation whereby development decisions have to factor in impact associated with un-official, third party mods however, which is the picture you try to paint.
Finally, ESO was originally developed as a PC game first and foremost, not a console port, therefore pulling 14% sales figure out is kind of a moot point. The game was advertised as being a PC game and not a port therefore it is expected to have all the polish and functionality that comes as standard with a PC game.
a PC game is a PC game and should be judged as a PC game. Not judged against a console equivalent because it suits your point of view.
Just one more question that can't be answered. From past history on other games it has shown to be about even imho. There are just as many detrimental as positive points to them. And, from previous experience I haven't really noticed games like Rift losing players from addons.
It's a very small part of a huge game that imho, can not kill a game.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Just one more question that can't be answered. From past history on other games it has shown to be about even imho. There are just as many detrimental as positive points to them. And, from previous experience I haven't really noticed games like Rift losing players from addons.
It's a very small part of a huge game that imho, can not kill a game.
Thats balanced and fair...
Can over-reliance on mods cause a problem for some players? Yes.
Is the impact anywhere near as bad as the anti crowd would have you believe? No.
Is anyone actually forced to use them? No.
Will people need to use a few select mods to be competetive? Probably.
Have mods ever been responsible for the death of a game? No.
Should we get into a situation of taking away options and content that many players want and enjoy, simply because others don't want or enjot it? No. That is one hell of a slippery slope. More options are always a good thing.
The problem isn't addon's forcing you to "look at your meters". The problem is people trying to join power groups, when they know that isn't the kind of thing they enjoy. People like me are GOING to find ways to min-max and measure things.
Originally posted by trancefate The problem isn't addon's forcing you to "look at your meters". The problem is people trying to join power groups, when they know that isn't the kind of thing they enjoy. People like me are GOING to find ways to min-max and measure things.
Exactly, and there is nothing wrong with it.
I can't believe the thread has gone on this long. The simple answer is: "No, add-on's wont kill the game."
Plenty of other games have "survived" the addon experience, no reason to suspect that ESO would be the one game that would get killed by addon's.
Originally posted by trancefate The problem isn't addon's forcing you to "look at your meters". The problem is people trying to join power groups, when they know that isn't the kind of thing they enjoy. People like me are GOING to find ways to min-max and measure things.
I can kind of understand the sentiment that over reliance on mods can promote an elitist culture where people are excluded based on not having this mod, or this mod says your gear check is low so /kick.....
However, games with zero mod support also have elitist behaviour and exclusion type culture....so clearly a knee jerk reaction and blanket clamp down on mods would not alleviate this problem.
Equally some anti mod posters will tell you mod = cheating in PvP. Again, games like SWTOR have zero mod support and are still rife with bots / speed hacks etc. Clearly, not having mods does nothing to prevent cheatig in PvP either.
Both of these arguements are crutches that dont really stand up to any scrutiny...
Most the info (buffs, de-buffs, casting prompt etc) that the addons shown so far provide is info already in the UI if you know what you are looking at/for.
The only exception is de-buff timers, and tbh the games UI should be able to show this (along with combat info, scrolling or not) as standard just like every single successful mmo does. The fact that you can display this info in an easily readable way means that addons are a requirement for MANY people, and guess what they are completely optional too! So if you don't like it don't use it (like I say if you know what your looking at/for you have access to most the info anyway)
Why do people spout that more options are good then turn around and say well if you want addons that option shouldn't be allowed?
Are you really too stupid to understand what was said several times in this thread alone? People want leveled field of play without neccessity to clutter their interace with addons that give adventage to other people.
The use of a couple of addons to ensure you have a level playing field does not have to equal a cluttered interface.
Sounds awfully like a poor strawman you have there....
Comments
I agree.
When combat information is hidden about your opponent, the more the combat moves from being skill based to luck based.
If you have a competitive mindset, mods will not kill this game. Lack of them will.
I believe saying it will kill the game is quite excessive, however many people will be upset if Zenimax take it too far or don't restrict it enough. One of the games great features and many will agree, especially TES fans, is that the UI isnt cluttering your screen and obstructing 75% of your view (like some mmos). This allows the game to be alot more immersive, which is how it should be.
Hearing about some of the mods, I think they are fine. Cosmetic UI tweaks and inventory/loot mods are fine. However anything that severely breaks the immersion of the world exploration and combat I don't agree with. Basically any mod or a multitude of mods that detract from immersion or make the combat more about tables and graphs over the visual animation/cues in the game are a no-no. Having said that, its fine if some people want to play like that, and of course its "optional" so I won't have to.
However, if it becomes too extreme like WoW for PvE or giving significant advantages in PvP that is going too far. Its fine for the RvR to be competitive. I like a certain amount of competition. But if were talking efficiency mods and E-Sports style, I'm out. I want to enjoy Cyrodil as an immersive war between the factions in tes, not some arena leet skills stuff. Cod, Starcraft, LoL: there are plenty of those games out there, we don't need TES going that direction, please....
MMOs Played: FFXI,Age of Conan, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, TERA, TSW, GW2
Playing:None
Waiting For: Wildstar, The Repopulation, Archeage, TESO, Warhammer 40K:EC, EQN
Even though I can appreciate the desire to provide a streamlined, no intrusive, immersion increasing UI, there is no point if the detriment it brings to actual gameplay makes life harder.
None seems to want to answer my question for example, does the default UI in ESO display buffs / debuffs / states or not?
Driz
I understand that somethings are just "basic necessities" in a game's UI like the buff states (assuming the buff isnt shown on your chracters model somehow).
My point is where do you draw the line as there can always be a mod to make this or that easier. Where does it end? And how far should until a game doesn't even resemble itself or its original design/implementation anymore
What bout a mod that auto-sprints or flashes a little icon that tells you to block, etc...
MMOs Played: FFXI,Age of Conan, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, TERA, TSW, GW2
Playing:None
Waiting For: Wildstar, The Repopulation, Archeage, TESO, Warhammer 40K:EC, EQN
Most the info (buffs, de-buffs, casting prompt etc) that the addons shown so far provide is info already in the UI if you know what you are looking at/for.
The only exception is de-buff timers, and tbh the games UI should be able to show this (along with combat info, scrolling or not) as standard just like every single successful mmo does. The fact that you can display this info in an easily readable way means that addons are a requirement for MANY people, and guess what they are completely optional too! So if you don't like it don't use it (like I say if you know what your looking at/for you have access to most the info anyway)
Why do people spout that more options are good then turn around and say well if you want addons that option shouldn't be allowed?
Thanks for clarifying.
So this is an example of lazy development. If the devs are having the debuff mechanic with traditional timers then they should damn well code a display for it into the UI. Or do they expect us to simply guess when the time is due to expire? Count it down inside our heads whilst playing perhaps?
It does not have to be flashy or intrusive or immersion breaking but how can they expect us to play with and manage a mechanic like a debuff timer if they then give us no way to interpret it?
They obviously have the data available in the API so it IS there, ready for use by players and was obviously intended to be so. They were just too lazy to add a display frame for it probably thinking "Oh well, the community can finish that little job for us" and we can use the rhetoric of "immersive UI" to dismiss all of the things we were too lazy to do.
This type of lazy approach to UIs is the main reason addons have become such a necessity. Like I said if the UI was even half way decent we would not even be having this conversation. The UI is one the very first things to come under scrutiny in a MMORPG, you would have hoped the ESO devs would have learnt from the mistakes of previous games
Driz
Interestingly enough, Wildstar have just done a revamp of their own UI...
I felt that the previous UI was too cluttered but the new one is de-cluttered, much less intrusive, more streamlined, has full customisation options even down to the ability to select each frame and toggle where is is turned on or off during combat. This will allow you to dynamically alter the level of data presented on your UI dependent on what you are doing in game at the time,
And guess what? Wildstar's devs are skilled enough to display de-buff timers too!!
That is an example of a non-lazy approach to refining your UI, whereas ESO are content to just let the paying community drag their effort to an acceptable level via community mods
Driz
Nonsense, lol
If the UI was "even halfway decent", everyone would still be here crying just as loudly about the fact that the UI was "only half way done".
Is there really any point in a developer spending much time on UI development when 50% of the players will prefer to choose their own from the huge selection of Add-On's that will be developed anyway ?
Frankly, I wouldn't give a damn if the game came with a single button on the screen, labelled "Load Add-On here", as long as there is a wide selection of Add-On's available. I'll be using an Add-On (or multiple Add-On's) regardless.
The problem is not with the Add-On's, it's how they are used. Nobody can "force" me to use an add-on I don't want to use. Besides, if the information is available in the client, somebody will find a way to harvest it and display it. May as well be upfront about it and allow all players equal access via an authorized API.
I couldn't agree more
That being said, I disagree with the sentiment that a UI is not that important in the grand scheme of things. Look at every new MMORPG to be released, the UI is one of the first things to go under the spotlight.
Look at the default UI in SWTOR at release, it was terribly bloated and had zero customisation, the devs got panned for it by the community until they eventually added in customisable presets.
The point I am making is that many posters complain about being forced to use an abundence of addons, if the devs launched the game with a good quality UI, one that for example, was capable of displaying de-buff timers just to highlight one specific, then the vast number of required addons would be rendered obsolete as the base game would mean they are not even necessary.
Putting more than a token effort into the UI design and implementation would cut down on a lot of the "need" for addons, sure some would still be required but the vast majority would not, making the anti-addons crowd feel a little more comfortable with the remaining addons....
If a game has a few must have addons that fine, if a game has a plethora of must have addons it's lazy development imo.
Driz
Something important to remember is most ES fans do not use a addons/mods in the single player titles. ES fans make up a large number of Zen's target audience.
Most of the sales for Skyrim (as an example) went to console players. Only 19% of the sold copies of Skyrim were PC and only a certain percentage of those players bothered with 3rd party addons and mods.
A certain group of the MMO crowd are the real addon addicts and those come from a select group of games. Games that time and time again have been emulated to such a degree that they lose most of their playerbase in a few short months.
It is my hope that Zen sticks with their design concepts and puts some limits on what we can and can not do with addons. Since the more addons that are piled onto this game (from the videos I have seen). The more this game looks exactly like the games they are trying to set themselves apart from.
They gave us their vision and then they opened up to much for addon creation. Now they have to strike some sort of middle ground or it will bite them in the butt.
I would disagree with two things here:
1. Massively powerful community mods are one of the defining characteristics of ES games and always have been. Just lookf for example at the sheer number of mods for Oblivion that do everything from mod the UI and cosmetic features through to adding completely new zones and manor/estates for player housing....Look at the incredible number of not only skins and graphic mods but also the number of core game changing mods available on somewhere like Elder Scrolls Nexus and then tell me that mod use is a minority in the series.
That is simply disingenuous at best. IF not for the modding community the ES franchise would not be what it is today, particularly as every ES game launched with a biblical amount of significant bugs that were only ever fixed by the community themselves.
The a-typical type of ES mod is the "Stick all the best gear in the game in a backpack and leave it outside my starting zone" type of mod which would be obviously game breaking in an MMORPG but this the type of mod that has become totally mainstream in the traditional ES games.
2. No developer of any MMORPG that I have ever experienced has developed their additional content "around" addons. That is simply not true. Even games that provide comprehensive data access via their API's have always operated on a policy of mods are supported but not endorsed, the devs in no way develop content with the mods in mind or even a care whether their latest patch is compatible with mods.
Almost every single patch they released for WAR broke almost every single mod there was and you then had to wait a few days for the mod maker to fix it to work with the latest patch. All of this faux indignation around developers somehow being held hostage and constrained by having to develop in harmony with rogue addons is nonsense and has never ever happened in my experience.
In my experience, even where devs are tolerant of mods you are lucky if they do not break them with almosy every patch or maintenance release...
Driz
Add-ons haven't "killed" a game yet.
I went through my entire WoW career (PvP and otherwise) without a single mode that wasn't aesthetic (Bar mods and the like).
They only kill the game for the paranoid and those who choose to do things with people who knit-pick Gearscore and DPS meters. And if the mods didn't exist, they'd find other "reasons" to shut you out.
I prefer to just go play and have fun, add-on's and assholes be damned.
Hasn't failed me yet.
yeah i am ok with those UI addons. On the other hand, if they allow content mods (like Skyrim) then there would be no reason to have a subscription if the community is the one making content.
LUA-script addons was mentioned from the start which can be seen in this mmorpg article from summer 2012. "Matt assured us that the UI will be fully customizable: they'll be supporting mods from the get go with LUA."
1. Then you glazed over what I said. Regardless of how many mods are out there (and I adore many of those mods). That still makes up a small portion of the overall fan base for Skyrim. Most people that played this game never installed a mod.
Having said that... the console stuff is very secondary to most of what I say on these boards.
2. Content in WOW has most certainly been influenced by mods. At first they made some content around them. Later on they intentionally broke a few addons. While other times they added the addon functionality to the base UI. That most certainly did effect development.
There is another very similar thread in this same forum, but I would like to pitch in here as well. I decided to write an email to ZeniMax Online which tackles the entire issue of CERTAIN add-ons providing a clear advantage to its users, making it an indirect necessity for competitive play. Here's what I wrote:
Dear ZeniMax Online,
I am a beta tester for The Elder Scrolls Online and am eagerly awaiting for the game to be released. However, I am sending this email with the purpose of raising the development team's awareness of a critical issue that will most definitely have bold consequences on game play.
Before anything, however, I would like to state that one of the things that sets ESO apart is that it's an Elder Scrolls title. Meaning, pretty much every aspect of the game seems influenced by the series in one way or another. The issue at hand deals with the UI, heavily inspired by Skyrim and also by an idea that players should pay attention to the action, not the UI elements. With that, ZeniMax Online developed a truly authentic Elder Scrolls UI, that feels immersive, non-intrusive, and focuses the player's attention on the world itself. All that work and your vision, however, will go to waste depending on how you tackle the following issue.
During the beta testing phase, some users are making use of add-ons that completely disregard this entire notion of an Elder Scrolls-like UI. These add-ons not only provide information in an extremely evident manner, they also provide vital information about the enemy players, which would otherwise not be possible with the default UI. Specifically, there is an add-on that allows players to see the enemy's exact amount of Health, Magicka, and Stamina, what the enemy is casting and when to interrupt, and what buffs and debuffs the enemy currently has. This is without a doubt a HUGE advantage to anyone who makes use of it. The problem is, in order to play competitively, not using these add-ons would be extremely detrimental to one's performance, making it almost a necessity.
With the establishment of such, the player once again goes back a step to what typical MMO offers, where the focus during combat is on the UI and not the world or the action. The game loses a large part of what makes it an Elder Scrolls title if such tools are allowed and made available, for they will become invaluable for anyone who desires an edge (which most gamers do).
It is true that modifications to the game have always been a large part of The Elder Scrolls series (at least the PC version). With that said, though, in a scenario where players play with and against each other, where competition is ubiquitous, certain limitations need to be imposed unless you desire all your players with a competitive focus to not use the game's default UI. Not only that, these add-ons share almost no resemblance to the mods present for games like Skyrim. It is a poor argument to say that because Skyrim and other single player Elder Scrolls titles can be modified, then ESO must also allow for add-ons that influence the game's competitive nature.
Please, I beg you to revisit your attitude towards add-ons before the game releases. If you do not impose limitations and restrictions on what can or can't be done with these, then you establish a situation where you force you player-base to play the game with a cluttered, non-Elder Scrolls-like UI in order to compete.
I wish you all the best, and hope you demonstrate great judgment when tackling this issue.
Sincerely,
-----------------
I didnt gloss over anything, you are simply trying to paint a picture that mods have a far more wide reaching impact than they do.
Devs may occasionally incorporate functionality from mods where they are so well done that it's a no brainer to copy them. A bit like how most MMORPGs get most of their ideas from copying the best of the rest.
Devs have never been in a situation whereby development decisions have to factor in impact associated with un-official, third party mods however, which is the picture you try to paint.
Finally, ESO was originally developed as a PC game first and foremost, not a console port, therefore pulling 14% sales figure out is kind of a moot point. The game was advertised as being a PC game and not a port therefore it is expected to have all the polish and functionality that comes as standard with a PC game.
a PC game is a PC game and should be judged as a PC game. Not judged against a console equivalent because it suits your point of view.
Driz
Just one more question that can't be answered. From past history on other games it has shown to be about even imho. There are just as many detrimental as positive points to them. And, from previous experience I haven't really noticed games like Rift losing players from addons.
It's a very small part of a huge game that imho, can not kill a game.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Thats balanced and fair...
Can over-reliance on mods cause a problem for some players? Yes.
Is the impact anywhere near as bad as the anti crowd would have you believe? No.
Is anyone actually forced to use them? No.
Will people need to use a few select mods to be competetive? Probably.
Have mods ever been responsible for the death of a game? No.
Should we get into a situation of taking away options and content that many players want and enjoy, simply because others don't want or enjot it? No. That is one hell of a slippery slope. More options are always a good thing.
Driz
Exactly, and there is nothing wrong with it.
I can't believe the thread has gone on this long. The simple answer is: "No, add-on's wont kill the game."
Plenty of other games have "survived" the addon experience, no reason to suspect that ESO would be the one game that would get killed by addon's.
I can kind of understand the sentiment that over reliance on mods can promote an elitist culture where people are excluded based on not having this mod, or this mod says your gear check is low so /kick.....
However, games with zero mod support also have elitist behaviour and exclusion type culture....so clearly a knee jerk reaction and blanket clamp down on mods would not alleviate this problem.
Equally some anti mod posters will tell you mod = cheating in PvP. Again, games like SWTOR have zero mod support and are still rife with bots / speed hacks etc. Clearly, not having mods does nothing to prevent cheatig in PvP either.
Both of these arguements are crutches that dont really stand up to any scrutiny...
Driz
The use of a couple of addons to ensure you have a level playing field does not have to equal a cluttered interface.
Sounds awfully like a poor strawman you have there....
Driz