I am amazed that any of you actually believe the spin about ESO always has been and always will be a sub model game.
That is just rhetoric to calm peoples nerves pre release. The addition of the imperial race via an additional payment gate was the acid test to see if the ESO community would lap up MTs for content - and they did!
All those CE orders have given them the green light to charge for just about any type of content in the cash shop once its live.
Within 12 months tops ESO will move to a Freemium/Hybrid model I have no doubt of that. This has ALWAYS been part of the roadmap I am just amazed that so many of you choose not to believe this.
This game will be a fairly good mmorpg I am sure, however I am certain that it will also be one huge nickel n dime cash cow like SWTOR. IMO a move to a payment model almost exactly like SWTOR and/or LOTRO has always been the plan.
Of course, when ESO does move to Freemium model inside a year, this will mean the game has tanked and is a total failure.....thats what most of this site says about SWTOR right? It failed and the proof of its biblical failure was that it moved to F2P in less than a year?
Driz
You're one of those who fails to see the distinction between dishing out extra dough for a CE - which has become a staple of many game's releases, not just MMOs - and being OK with a nickle and dime cash shop. The contents of the CE are almost irrelevant, many would have bought them anyway.
Introduce a greedy little cash shop and they will piss-off a shitload of people. Even if you don't understand that there is a difference, they do. No better way for them to guarantee a mass exodus than doing that.
Explains why those greedy little cash shop games have more players and make more money then subscription games. *rolls eyes*
And for the record I'd rather be nickel and dimed in a cash shop which allows me to spend what I want on what I want when I want. Then pay for the bottom feeders of the gaming community to power through content designed for everyone who spends a zillion hours per week playing and not contributing to society. Also I rather like having the option to buy my way out of the doldrums of the menial low level hells of RPG'dom with limited inventory space, slow travel speeds, the appearance of a pauper and the adventuring escapades of a hapless Fed-Ex employee.
Also this hypothetical "shit-load of people" is anyone who still lives in the past of mega successful 150k subscription gaming playerbase. I'm relatively certain the average game designer, studio and corporate suit are more then willing to piss off this small bunch in an effort to cash in on the untapped potential millions of gamers who refuse to play MMO's because of this archaic business model.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Originally posted by AndrewGoat I sincerely hope this game stays subscription. It usually winds up making it so theres less trolls.
More trolls in WoW then any other MMO I have played.
I have to agree. The assumption that P2P keeps out the kids is a big misunderstanding. P2P keeps out no one, they simply get their parents to pay or they buy a time card at gamestop or such. I really wish people would stop using that as an argument point.
This is the internet. Kids are ranging from 5-70 years old.
When will all the ****ing morons realize F2P is a terrible system in comparison to the P2P model? Are there games you can really play completely for free? Yes, and they are complete garbage. Any F2P game worth playing you will soon discover, is going to end up costing you more than $15 a month. Why will it cost you more? Because they nickel and dime you. You think oh it's ok I'm just paying $5 for this and then not long after that you pay another $5 for something else and so on and so on. Add it all up after a year and see if it equals out to more than $180. I bet it does.
The good content is behind pay walls. They try to make it seem like a better deal because instead of real cash per item/content you pay with gems or jewels or whatever nonsense currency these ripoff MMOs use. The best case scenario for you with these F2P games is that you play for a month or so for free but soon discover there are tons of things you cannot do without paying. What option do you choose? Their subscription plan. Though they don't call it that, it's called something else to mask the dirty subscription word.
NOTHING worth a damn is free. Nothing. Not in the gaming world anyway.
Also this hypothetical "shit-load of people" is anyone who still lives in the past of mega successful 150k subscription gaming playerbase. I'm relatively certain the average game designer, studio and corporate suit are more then willing to piss off this small bunch in an effort to cash in on the untapped potential millions of gamers who refuse to play MMO's because of this archaic business model.
Lol! I love how these deluded F2P fanatics conveniently forget or dance around the biggest elephant in the room: WoW. It shows their dishonesty. Because, God forbid, if they were to acknowledge the roaring success of WoW, it would only diminish their "subs don't work!" mantra. And I love how they say things like "Oh, WoW was just a freak accident" or "it was nothing WoW did, they just happened to be at the right place at the right time". They refuse to acknowledge the fact that Blizzard actually put out a GREAT product. If it was only because of "being there at the right time... blah blah", Everquest should have been the biggest MMO of all time since they came BEFORE WoW.
The fact is, subs DO work. They work IF AND ONLY IF the MMO is a quality product and care is taken for endgame content. Even though I'm burnt out by WoW and despise the way they implemented PvP, you have to respect the fact that Blizzard was the only MMO gaming company out there that truly gets it when it comes to quality and understanding their customers. The MMO industry is littered with the graveyard of dead MMOs not because of the payment model, but because of poor execution and not differentiating themselves enough from WoW.
My top 3 sites for game reporting that I have the LEAST respect for are as follows:
1. IGN
2. PC Gamer
3. Massively
As usual, the Massively article is a total spin / hack job on what was actually said in the article they are referencing. Garbage journalism as usual from them to create controversy and get more hits.
Explains why those greedy little cash shop games have more players and make more money then subscription games. *rolls eyes*
Same old argument "F2P makes more money." Frankly, from a game playing perspective, who gives a shit which system makes more money?
I don't want to feel like I'm in a mall or watching commercial TV when I play an MMO. It's that simple. That is the one and only thing about F2P that matters to me: the intrusiveness of their constant reminders to spend more money.
I find it amusing that often the same people who complain about how some less-than-perfect feature in an MMO annoys them seem to have amazing tolerance for being constantly reminded to buy some crap because it's on special this week.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I find it amusing that often the same people who complain about how some less-than-perfect feature in an MMO annoys them seem to have amazing tolerance for being constantly reminded to buy some crap because it's on special this week.
I think for many people the "F2P" label is equal to that mythical "Miracle Patch" that makes all the bugs and irritations of a game magically dissappear...
How many times have I read the words: "Well, you can hardly complain about THAT feature/bug/issue, the game IS F2P after all" !
Elder Scrolls is probably your flagship series at Bethesda. Star Wars: The Old Republic didn't work with a subscription model and that's one of the biggest entertainment brands in the world. Is there any anxiety about this model not working?
Anxiety? I would say yes, because I'm anxious about everything all the time [laughs]. I don't get paid to sit around and assume that everything is fine, so I tend to worry about everything and I want to make sure that we're doing things in the right way for the right reasons. But I guess, to answer your question, I don't know whether or not previous games that have done subscriptions haven't succeeded because they were subscription-based, or because of the game that they were and the value that the customer got, and that's ultimately what we're talking about.
------------ If you feel like you're getting your money's worth for whatever you're paying - whether it be $15 for a month or $2 for a DLC - then you're going to be happy. If you're not, then you won't. You could do a free-to-play game where somebody wasn't happy, because maybe they don't feel like they're getting value for the money that they played upfront, even if it's not a pay-by-month subscription. We felt like the subscription model fit best what we wanted to do, not because we want you to pay per month to play the game, but because we want to provide real and meaningful content support on a regular basis.
That's not just a few items or a thing here and there, that's real significant stuff that adds to the game in a whole host of ways, and doing so needs a good sized group of people who are working on and creating new stuff. That's stuff we can start working on now, as well as stuff we can work on when we start to get player feedback.
It is what they said... yea i HOPE they will keep the sub model but i can`t help thinking it will go F2P because most people won`t play a sub based game....
That said i`ll buy it anyway and see how it does even if it goes F2P i`ll keep the SUB as i did with SWTOR.
90% MMO community up to today has or is still paying a sub for an MMO. In fact im willing to bet that 99% fo the MMO community when asked what their top 5 most memorable MMO moments are, they would answer you with a SUBBED game.
90% MMO community up to today has or is still paying a sub for an MMO. In fact im willing to bet that 99% fo the MMO community when asked what their top 5 most memorable MMO moments are, they would answer you with a SUBBED game.
What does that have to do with anything? Every game had a sub before, even the shitty ones. So yeah people paid subs, but they didnt for very long.
ESO will suffer the same fate undoubtedly. The game simply is not worth it and doesnt offer nearly enough to keep peopl ebusy enough to deserve a sub.
We have two different arguments going on, like we always do. Sub or not? Argument, and Worthy of a sub? Argument.
ESO isnt worthy of a sub. Sure they can charge oe at first because people dontknow any better and it gives the subscription advocates something to crow about. But its like charging 30 buxs for a Big Mac when you serve it at some 'fancy' restaurant. Its still a Big Mac and still 'worth' about 25 cents (even though McDonalds still charges 4 bux for them) and this place wants to charge 30. Do you have to pay to eat out even at a fast food place? Sure. But you dont over pay and you dont pay more than something is worth. Some places are 'worth' it. So a sub model and a sub worth game are mutually exclusive.
ESO fails on a lot of levels. If this weekend continues the trends of the past betas with horrible performance and log in screens and loading screens and phasing problems and missing quest objectives etc etc etc. That REALLY makes it not sub worthy. But I am sure more than enough people will still make excuses for them and compare it to every other beta they have been involved with with other games (which have all gone free to play) because its 'early release'.
Either way there are red flags all over the place with this game on so many levels you cant address them all in a single topic.
But in the end ESO is a shell of a game, a skeleton. It has (most) of the stuff any MMO should have but none of t is filled in. It is new it is exciting (to some) it is something people have been anticipating for a long time. But it isnt a great game. It is good, if it has performance issues then it is a good game you cant play when you want to. Which makes it a bad game. Or at least one people wont stick around for to see it fixed.
Will you pay $15 a month for WoW when you are playing ESO?
If not why not? Its only $15 a month, the devs need to be paid for future content etc. etc, ... that you might play in a year or two.
You probably won't. You feel you should be getting "something" for your money. Welcome to modern economics 101.
So when people stop playing ESO - and people will get bored and stop - they will stop paying an ESO sub.
And no WoW does not have 7.8M "constant subscribers". All games have churn. If its only 10% in WoW that is 800k leaving every month - and 800k who return. EQ1's churn after 5 years was over 50%! Unlike WoW ESo will have no returnees this year; it will have to rely on new sales to replace people who leave. And that is a tall order.
The article suggests that Zenimax are looking at different financial models. And I think they will have two main ones:
Model one a traditional monthly sub. It will have X initial sales, Y follow on sales; initial conversion rates and retention rates for the months going forward. I could expand but won't.
Model two will have an optional sub - which basically will give you so many content drops. Economics 101 again; you are paying for something "real" - even still only a future promise it feels better. And people who don't pay don't get! This model will have higher sales optional sub rates at least on a par with 6+ monthly retention rates and possibly on a par with 3 month retention rates - will depend on price. And it will look attractive despite needing a bigger server.
Model two is what next months - winner of 80+ awards - mega launch will have. I suspect that is a factor in their calculations as well - especially as it is on PC and 360s (as well as 1s).
Originally posted by azzamasin Originally posted by Iselin Originally posted by ImperialSun
Also this hypothetical "shit-load of people" is anyone who still lives in the past of mega successful 150k subscription gaming playerbase. I'm relatively certain the average game designer, studio and corporate suit are more then willing to piss off this small bunch in an effort to cash in on the untapped potential millions of gamers who refuse to play MMO's because of this archaic business model.
Lol! I love how these deluded F2P fanatics conveniently forget or dance around the biggest elephant in the room: WoW. It shows their dishonesty. Because, God forbid, if they were to acknowledge the roaring success of WoW, it would only diminish their "subs don't work!" mantra. And I love how they say things like "Oh, WoW was just a freak accident" or "it was nothing WoW did, they just happened to be at the right place at the right time". They refuse to acknowledge the fact that Blizzard actually put out a GREAT product. If it was only because of "being there at the right time... blah blah", Everquest should have been the biggest MMO of all time since they came BEFORE WoW.
The fact is, subs DO work. They work IF AND ONLY IF the MMO is a quality product and care is taken for endgame content. Even though I'm burnt out by WoW and despise the way they implemented PvP, you have to respect the fact that Blizzard was the only MMO gaming company out there that truly gets it when it comes to quality and understanding their customers. The MMO industry is littered with the graveyard of dead MMOs not because of the payment model, but because of poor execution and not differentiating themselves enough from WoW.
I could say the same about 'the deluded p2p fanatics' who conveniently forget the vast majority of WoW 'subscribers' are not paying a recurring monthly fee. And the mantra isn't that 'subs don't work' it's that subs are not a particularly equitable model for some subscribers.
Also this hypothetical "shit-load of people" is anyone who still lives in the past of mega successful 150k subscription gaming playerbase. I'm relatively certain the average game designer, studio and corporate suit are more then willing to piss off this small bunch in an effort to cash in on the untapped potential millions of gamers who refuse to play MMO's because of this archaic business model.
Lol! I love how these deluded F2P fanatics conveniently forget or dance around the biggest elephant in the room: WoW. It shows their dishonesty. Because, God forbid, if they were to acknowledge the roaring success of WoW, it would only diminish their "subs don't work!" mantra. And I love how they say things like "Oh, WoW was just a freak accident" or "it was nothing WoW did, they just happened to be at the right place at the right time". They refuse to acknowledge the fact that Blizzard actually put out a GREAT product. If it was only because of "being there at the right time... blah blah", Everquest should have been the biggest MMO of all time since they came BEFORE WoW.
The fact is, subs DO work. They work IF AND ONLY IF the MMO is a quality product and care is taken for endgame content. Even though I'm burnt out by WoW and despise the way they implemented PvP, you have to respect the fact that Blizzard was the only MMO gaming company out there that truly gets it when it comes to quality and understanding their customers. The MMO industry is littered with the graveyard of dead MMOs not because of the payment model, but because of poor execution and not differentiating themselves enough from WoW.
I could say the same about 'the deluded p2p fanatics' who conveniently forget the vast majority of WoW 'subscribers' are not paying a recurring monthly fee. And the mantra isn't that 'subs don't work' it's that subs are not a particularly equitable model for some subscribers.
I dont think anyone (reasonalbe) would support the 'subs dont work' premise... as they are the #1 source of income for all F2P games in the west. It is just that P2P is not as popular ( even taking WoW into consideration) as F2P. If WoW were to launch today (as it did years ago) it would likely launch as F2P vs P2P, as that is the best way to get a large player base. It would still have a sub option and cash shop (similar to today), but would just want to take advantage of the free marketing (word of mouth) that you get from F2P.
90% MMO community up to today has or is still paying a sub for an MMO. In fact im willing to bet that 99% fo the MMO community when asked what their top 5 most memorable MMO moments are, they would answer you with a SUBBED game.
What does that have to do with anything? Every game had a sub before, even the shitty ones. So yeah people paid subs, but they didnt for very long.
ESO will suffer the same fate undoubtedly. The game simply is not worth it and doesnt offer nearly enough to keep peopl ebusy enough to deserve a sub.
We have two different arguments going on, like we always do. Sub or not? Argument, and Worthy of a sub? Argument.
ESO isnt worthy of a sub. Sure they can charge oe at first because people dontknow any better and it gives the subscription advocates something to crow about. But its like charging 30 buxs for a Big Mac when you serve it at some 'fancy' restaurant. Its still a Big Mac and still 'worth' about 25 cents (even though McDonalds still charges 4 bux for them) and this place wants to charge 30. Do you have to pay to eat out even at a fast food place? Sure. But you dont over pay and you dont pay more than something is worth. Some places are 'worth' it. So a sub model and a sub worth game are mutually exclusive.
ESO fails on a lot of levels. If this weekend continues the trends of the past betas with horrible performance and log in screens and loading screens and phasing problems and missing quest objectives etc etc etc. That REALLY makes it not sub worthy. But I am sure more than enough people will still make excuses for them and compare it to every other beta they have been involved with with other games (which have all gone free to play) because its 'early release'.
Either way there are red flags all over the place with this game on so many levels you cant address them all in a single topic.
But in the end ESO is a shell of a game, a skeleton. It has (most) of the stuff any MMO should have but none of t is filled in. It is new it is exciting (to some) it is something people have been anticipating for a long time. But it isnt a great game. It is good, if it has performance issues then it is a good game you cant play when you want to. Which makes it a bad game. Or at least one people wont stick around for to see it fixed.
im going to go ahead and attack the analogy. If What you say were true.. fancy restaraunts wouldnt exist.. but they do. People are willing to pay 30$ for DAT BIGMAC.
im going to go ahead and attack the analogy. If What you say were true.. fancy restaraunts wouldnt exist.. but they do. People are willing to pay 30$ for DAT BIGMAC.
They might ONCE but after they figure out it tastes like a Big Mac because it is a Big Mac they wont. Which is a fitting analogy for his game because once people realize this is a bad knock off of GW 2 in its PVP approach and has all the same short comings as that game does they wont pay for this one either since GW2 is already free.
I still hope people are smart enough to figure it out. Yeah too many people still get fooled because something is new, but once they realize its just new and not improved they move on.
Still doesnt help the future because companies still see how much money a game made at release and will continue to put out garbage because people will pay for it.
if this game tanks hard and loses 95% of its subscribers in 6 months and goes free to play it wont change a damn thing because people will fall for the next piece of crap to come along because it is new too, and people keep dreaming that a company will eventually release a game worth paying for. The problem is as long as those same peopel buy every piece of shit to hit the market it will never change and they just keep perpetuating it.
They might ONCE but after they figure out it tastes like a Big Mac because it is a Big Mac they wont. Which is a fitting analogy for his game because once people realize this is a bad knock off of GW 2 in its PVP approach and has all the same short comings as that game does they wont pay for this one either since GW2 is already free.
Actually that's not true at all. I order burgers all the time at nicer restaurants for the atmosphere. I'm not going to go hang out with friends at a McDonalds when I can hang out at a nice place and pay 3 times as much for a burger.
"Some people" would rather not play with the so called "free to play" riff raff, and will gladly pay a sub for a better community.
im going to go ahead and attack the analogy. If What you say were true.. fancy restaraunts wouldnt exist.. but they do. People are willing to pay 30$ for DAT BIGMAC.
They might ONCE but after they figure out it tastes like a Big Mac because it is a Big Mac they wont. Which is a fitting analogy for his game because once people realize this is a bad knock off of GW 2 in its PVP approach and has all the same short comings as that game does they wont pay for this one either since GW2 is already free.
You haters are wasting your breath with this incessant attack on ESO and your absolute false impression of the PvP being like GW2's lame zerg fest with no consequences. To compare it to GW2 is like looking at the whole onion and leaving it at that. In reality, it has far more depth and many layers to peel through. It's more akin to daoc than GW2. But, I suppose I shouldn't expect much from most of you jokers since you don't seem to have a context beyond GW2.
People are actually trying the game out for themselves and realizing the haters are full of shit.
I can't play Wildstar and TESO if they don't go buy to play or free, I'm not paying multiple subscriptions a month... Lol, a lot of people don't want free to play we want *BUY* to play. Only, they won't give us that, and we end up having to play free. We want to have permanent access to login, and we usually are fairly happy to unlock quickslot bars, unlock helmet slots and titles, unlock bank slots and inventory, unlock equipment, etc.
Having to pay once and retaining access, beats having to pay a monthly fee and basically "renting" the ability to play your characters every single month!!
Some of us, are not jump shippers, we prefer to play for years, and that adds up to thousands of dollars ! I bought like 14 expansions for Everquest 1 and paid for 7 years of subscriptions, it is rediculous when you add up that cost together!
Now, I'd rather buy mounts and cosmetics in the shop to support the game, instead of being forced to pay a subscription in order to log in!!
Whichever way they go though, I wish them well because TES is an awesome game, and they really should do it justice.
Maybe, you will get a better community after the first 3 or 6 month people quit the game, but , look at how WoW 's community was known for being toxic on most servers.
Those people were all paying monthly subscriptions, and were still the same people, how does paying money make you a better person than the nice poor free to play person who lives off ramen, and just can't find a job irl no matter how hard they search for one ?
You will meet bad and good people of all ages and all nationalities, rich and poor, there is no keeping bad people out unless they keep banning them. So, community should be nice because it should be a smaller cliche game of people who are hardcore TES fans, not because they are keeping people out, just hopefully they have challenge , which tends to drive fair weather people away.
ESO going sub based is a mistake. But when you put that much money into a game I guess you have to shoot for the sky. Plus they probably are prepared to go F2P/B2P 6 months in if numbers are low.
Reading through this entire thread, I face palmed hundreds of times.
It's almost crazy with how many people have a warped perspective on F2P games. All the P2P players are calling the F2P crowd haters but yet the P2P players are calling the F2P players riff-raff and all sorts of other things.
WoW is a great example of the P2P model working, and no one can deny that. However, it certainly doesn't prove anything. To prove something you need a substantial amount of evidence. The fact that P2P has only worked properly with a handful of MMOs is a very bad sign for the P2P model in general. The number in the past hardly matter if the chances of getting those numbers are low. It's simply risky.
As I said though, it does work ... it's just rare.
What really makes me laugh is those who say they will never touch a F2P game. That is a terrible mind set and is absolute ignorance at it's finest. So you are telling me, that if by chance the greatest game ever created happens to be a F2P game ... you wouldn't touch it? You all do know that there are actually some pretty good F2P games out there. Not even that hard to find >.> ... either that or you all are very very biased and just are unwilling to accept that a F2P game can be good so you will not even give it a remote chance. Which is funny .. you all complain we should give ESO a chance passed level 10. PASSED level 10. That is a heck of a lot more then you all give a F2P game and judge it. Hypocrisy at it's finest.
I am a B2P and F2P supporter, but even I still would play P2P games if I feel the game is worth it. I don't act ignorant and say I will never touch a P2P game. That is just stupid. If a game is good enough and at the right price, I will certainly play it.
I, however, do not support companies using a P2P model and also double dipping into being able to purchase other content like a cash shop. If a game has a P2P model, I expect to get every part of the game 100%.
Some people talk about how it's old news with this whole CE business, but I assure you this is NOT the same as the past. Sure, it's normal for a game to have a CE. However, it is certainly not normal for a game to lock a race behind a CE. Whether you where planning on purchasing the CE anyway, really doesn't matter. It's about principles. It's just something a company should not ever do, and I do not support such behaviors.
Why would I buy something of which I don't support what the company itself is doing? Sorry, unlike the vast mindless drones of the MMO world, I vote with my money and I since I work in the industry, I know very well what good business practices are in the game industry.
Comments
Explains why those greedy little cash shop games have more players and make more money then subscription games. *rolls eyes*
And for the record I'd rather be nickel and dimed in a cash shop which allows me to spend what I want on what I want when I want. Then pay for the bottom feeders of the gaming community to power through content designed for everyone who spends a zillion hours per week playing and not contributing to society. Also I rather like having the option to buy my way out of the doldrums of the menial low level hells of RPG'dom with limited inventory space, slow travel speeds, the appearance of a pauper and the adventuring escapades of a hapless Fed-Ex employee.
Also this hypothetical "shit-load of people" is anyone who still lives in the past of mega successful 150k subscription gaming playerbase. I'm relatively certain the average game designer, studio and corporate suit are more then willing to piss off this small bunch in an effort to cash in on the untapped potential millions of gamers who refuse to play MMO's because of this archaic business model.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
This is the internet. Kids are ranging from 5-70 years old.
You'll meet them, even in P2P games.
When will all the ****ing morons realize F2P is a terrible system in comparison to the P2P model? Are there games you can really play completely for free? Yes, and they are complete garbage. Any F2P game worth playing you will soon discover, is going to end up costing you more than $15 a month. Why will it cost you more? Because they nickel and dime you. You think oh it's ok I'm just paying $5 for this and then not long after that you pay another $5 for something else and so on and so on. Add it all up after a year and see if it equals out to more than $180. I bet it does.
The good content is behind pay walls. They try to make it seem like a better deal because instead of real cash per item/content you pay with gems or jewels or whatever nonsense currency these ripoff MMOs use. The best case scenario for you with these F2P games is that you play for a month or so for free but soon discover there are tons of things you cannot do without paying. What option do you choose? Their subscription plan. Though they don't call it that, it's called something else to mask the dirty subscription word.
NOTHING worth a damn is free. Nothing. Not in the gaming world anyway.
Lol! I love how these deluded F2P fanatics conveniently forget or dance around the biggest elephant in the room: WoW. It shows their dishonesty. Because, God forbid, if they were to acknowledge the roaring success of WoW, it would only diminish their "subs don't work!" mantra. And I love how they say things like "Oh, WoW was just a freak accident" or "it was nothing WoW did, they just happened to be at the right place at the right time". They refuse to acknowledge the fact that Blizzard actually put out a GREAT product. If it was only because of "being there at the right time... blah blah", Everquest should have been the biggest MMO of all time since they came BEFORE WoW.
The fact is, subs DO work. They work IF AND ONLY IF the MMO is a quality product and care is taken for endgame content. Even though I'm burnt out by WoW and despise the way they implemented PvP, you have to respect the fact that Blizzard was the only MMO gaming company out there that truly gets it when it comes to quality and understanding their customers. The MMO industry is littered with the graveyard of dead MMOs not because of the payment model, but because of poor execution and not differentiating themselves enough from WoW.
My top 3 sites for game reporting that I have the LEAST respect for are as follows:
1. IGN
2. PC Gamer
3. Massively
As usual, the Massively article is a total spin / hack job on what was actually said in the article they are referencing. Garbage journalism as usual from them to create controversy and get more hits.
Same old argument "F2P makes more money." Frankly, from a game playing perspective, who gives a shit which system makes more money?
I don't want to feel like I'm in a mall or watching commercial TV when I play an MMO. It's that simple. That is the one and only thing about F2P that matters to me: the intrusiveness of their constant reminders to spend more money.
I find it amusing that often the same people who complain about how some less-than-perfect feature in an MMO annoys them seem to have amazing tolerance for being constantly reminded to buy some crap because it's on special this week.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I think for many people the "F2P" label is equal to that mythical "Miracle Patch" that makes all the bugs and irritations of a game magically dissappear...
How many times have I read the words: "Well, you can hardly complain about THAT feature/bug/issue, the game IS F2P after all" !
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Elder Scrolls is probably your flagship series at Bethesda. Star Wars: The Old Republic didn't work with a subscription model and that's one of the biggest entertainment brands in the world. Is there any anxiety about this model not working?
Anxiety? I would say yes, because I'm anxious about everything all the time [laughs]. I don't get paid to sit around and assume that everything is fine, so I tend to worry about everything and I want to make sure that we're doing things in the right way for the right reasons. But I guess, to answer your question, I don't know whether or not previous games that have done subscriptions haven't succeeded because they were subscription-based, or because of the game that they were and the value that the customer got, and that's ultimately what we're talking about.
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If you feel like you're getting your money's worth for whatever you're paying - whether it be $15 for a month or $2 for a DLC - then you're going to be happy. If you're not, then you won't. You could do a free-to-play game where somebody wasn't happy, because maybe they don't feel like they're getting value for the money that they played upfront, even if it's not a pay-by-month subscription. We felt like the subscription model fit best what we wanted to do, not because we want you to pay per month to play the game, but because we want to provide real and meaningful content support on a regular basis.
That's not just a few items or a thing here and there, that's real significant stuff that adds to the game in a whole host of ways, and doing so needs a good sized group of people who are working on and creating new stuff. That's stuff we can start working on now, as well as stuff we can work on when we start to get player feedback.
90% MMO community up to today has or is still paying a sub for an MMO. In fact im willing to bet that 99% fo the MMO community when asked what their top 5 most memorable MMO moments are, they would answer you with a SUBBED game.
What does that have to do with anything? Every game had a sub before, even the shitty ones. So yeah people paid subs, but they didnt for very long.
ESO will suffer the same fate undoubtedly. The game simply is not worth it and doesnt offer nearly enough to keep peopl ebusy enough to deserve a sub.
We have two different arguments going on, like we always do. Sub or not? Argument, and Worthy of a sub? Argument.
ESO isnt worthy of a sub. Sure they can charge oe at first because people dontknow any better and it gives the subscription advocates something to crow about. But its like charging 30 buxs for a Big Mac when you serve it at some 'fancy' restaurant. Its still a Big Mac and still 'worth' about 25 cents (even though McDonalds still charges 4 bux for them) and this place wants to charge 30. Do you have to pay to eat out even at a fast food place? Sure. But you dont over pay and you dont pay more than something is worth. Some places are 'worth' it. So a sub model and a sub worth game are mutually exclusive.
ESO fails on a lot of levels. If this weekend continues the trends of the past betas with horrible performance and log in screens and loading screens and phasing problems and missing quest objectives etc etc etc. That REALLY makes it not sub worthy. But I am sure more than enough people will still make excuses for them and compare it to every other beta they have been involved with with other games (which have all gone free to play) because its 'early release'.
Either way there are red flags all over the place with this game on so many levels you cant address them all in a single topic.
But in the end ESO is a shell of a game, a skeleton. It has (most) of the stuff any MMO should have but none of t is filled in. It is new it is exciting (to some) it is something people have been anticipating for a long time. But it isnt a great game. It is good, if it has performance issues then it is a good game you cant play when you want to. Which makes it a bad game. Or at least one people wont stick around for to see it fixed.
Will you pay $15 a month for WoW when you are playing ESO?
If not why not? Its only $15 a month, the devs need to be paid for future content etc. etc, ... that you might play in a year or two.
You probably won't. You feel you should be getting "something" for your money. Welcome to modern economics 101.
So when people stop playing ESO - and people will get bored and stop - they will stop paying an ESO sub.
And no WoW does not have 7.8M "constant subscribers". All games have churn. If its only 10% in WoW that is 800k leaving every month - and 800k who return. EQ1's churn after 5 years was over 50%! Unlike WoW ESo will have no returnees this year; it will have to rely on new sales to replace people who leave. And that is a tall order.
The article suggests that Zenimax are looking at different financial models. And I think they will have two main ones:
Model one a traditional monthly sub. It will have X initial sales, Y follow on sales; initial conversion rates and retention rates for the months going forward. I could expand but won't.
Model two will have an optional sub - which basically will give you so many content drops. Economics 101 again; you are paying for something "real" - even still only a future promise it feels better. And people who don't pay don't get! This model will have higher sales optional sub rates at least on a par with 6+ monthly retention rates and possibly on a par with 3 month retention rates - will depend on price. And it will look attractive despite needing a bigger server.
Model two is what next months - winner of 80+ awards - mega launch will have. I suspect that is a factor in their calculations as well - especially as it is on PC and 360s (as well as 1s).
Also this hypothetical "shit-load of people" is anyone who still lives in the past of mega successful 150k subscription gaming playerbase. I'm relatively certain the average game designer, studio and corporate suit are more then willing to piss off this small bunch in an effort to cash in on the untapped potential millions of gamers who refuse to play MMO's because of this archaic business model.
Lol! I love how these deluded F2P fanatics conveniently forget or dance around the biggest elephant in the room: WoW. It shows their dishonesty. Because, God forbid, if they were to acknowledge the roaring success of WoW, it would only diminish their "subs don't work!" mantra. And I love how they say things like "Oh, WoW was just a freak accident" or "it was nothing WoW did, they just happened to be at the right place at the right time". They refuse to acknowledge the fact that Blizzard actually put out a GREAT product. If it was only because of "being there at the right time... blah blah", Everquest should have been the biggest MMO of all time since they came BEFORE WoW.
The fact is, subs DO work. They work IF AND ONLY IF the MMO is a quality product and care is taken for endgame content. Even though I'm burnt out by WoW and despise the way they implemented PvP, you have to respect the fact that Blizzard was the only MMO gaming company out there that truly gets it when it comes to quality and understanding their customers. The MMO industry is littered with the graveyard of dead MMOs not because of the payment model, but because of poor execution and not differentiating themselves enough from WoW.
I could say the same about 'the deluded p2p fanatics' who conveniently forget the vast majority of WoW 'subscribers' are not paying a recurring monthly fee. And the mantra isn't that 'subs don't work' it's that subs are not a particularly equitable model for some subscribers.I dont think anyone (reasonalbe) would support the 'subs dont work' premise... as they are the #1 source of income for all F2P games in the west. It is just that P2P is not as popular ( even taking WoW into consideration) as F2P. If WoW were to launch today (as it did years ago) it would likely launch as F2P vs P2P, as that is the best way to get a large player base. It would still have a sub option and cash shop (similar to today), but would just want to take advantage of the free marketing (word of mouth) that you get from F2P.
im going to go ahead and attack the analogy. If What you say were true.. fancy restaraunts wouldnt exist.. but they do. People are willing to pay 30$ for DAT BIGMAC.
They might ONCE but after they figure out it tastes like a Big Mac because it is a Big Mac they wont. Which is a fitting analogy for his game because once people realize this is a bad knock off of GW 2 in its PVP approach and has all the same short comings as that game does they wont pay for this one either since GW2 is already free.
I still hope people are smart enough to figure it out. Yeah too many people still get fooled because something is new, but once they realize its just new and not improved they move on.
Still doesnt help the future because companies still see how much money a game made at release and will continue to put out garbage because people will pay for it.
if this game tanks hard and loses 95% of its subscribers in 6 months and goes free to play it wont change a damn thing because people will fall for the next piece of crap to come along because it is new too, and people keep dreaming that a company will eventually release a game worth paying for. The problem is as long as those same peopel buy every piece of shit to hit the market it will never change and they just keep perpetuating it.
Actually that's not true at all. I order burgers all the time at nicer restaurants for the atmosphere. I'm not going to go hang out with friends at a McDonalds when I can hang out at a nice place and pay 3 times as much for a burger.
"Some people" would rather not play with the so called "free to play" riff raff, and will gladly pay a sub for a better community.
You haters are wasting your breath with this incessant attack on ESO and your absolute false impression of the PvP being like GW2's lame zerg fest with no consequences. To compare it to GW2 is like looking at the whole onion and leaving it at that. In reality, it has far more depth and many layers to peel through. It's more akin to daoc than GW2. But, I suppose I shouldn't expect much from most of you jokers since you don't seem to have a context beyond GW2.
People are actually trying the game out for themselves and realizing the haters are full of shit.
I can't play Wildstar and TESO if they don't go buy to play or free, I'm not paying multiple subscriptions a month... Lol, a lot of people don't want free to play we want *BUY* to play. Only, they won't give us that, and we end up having to play free. We want to have permanent access to login, and we usually are fairly happy to unlock quickslot bars, unlock helmet slots and titles, unlock bank slots and inventory, unlock equipment, etc.
Having to pay once and retaining access, beats having to pay a monthly fee and basically "renting" the ability to play your characters every single month!!
Some of us, are not jump shippers, we prefer to play for years, and that adds up to thousands of dollars ! I bought like 14 expansions for Everquest 1 and paid for 7 years of subscriptions, it is rediculous when you add up that cost together!
Now, I'd rather buy mounts and cosmetics in the shop to support the game, instead of being forced to pay a subscription in order to log in!!
Whichever way they go though, I wish them well because TES is an awesome game, and they really should do it justice.
Maybe, you will get a better community after the first 3 or 6 month people quit the game, but , look at how WoW 's community was known for being toxic on most servers.
Those people were all paying monthly subscriptions, and were still the same people, how does paying money make you a better person than the nice poor free to play person who lives off ramen, and just can't find a job irl no matter how hard they search for one ?
You will meet bad and good people of all ages and all nationalities, rich and poor, there is no keeping bad people out unless they keep banning them. So, community should be nice because it should be a smaller cliche game of people who are hardcore TES fans, not because they are keeping people out, just hopefully they have challenge , which tends to drive fair weather people away.
That's basically what Massively has become yep.
Yea, not like there are any games out there with millions of subscribers....
Oh wait....
(Uzik ibnYaraq in game. Always willing to help.)
http://www.youtube.com/user/UzikAlJhamin
Reading through this entire thread, I face palmed hundreds of times.
It's almost crazy with how many people have a warped perspective on F2P games. All the P2P players are calling the F2P crowd haters but yet the P2P players are calling the F2P players riff-raff and all sorts of other things.
WoW is a great example of the P2P model working, and no one can deny that. However, it certainly doesn't prove anything. To prove something you need a substantial amount of evidence. The fact that P2P has only worked properly with a handful of MMOs is a very bad sign for the P2P model in general. The number in the past hardly matter if the chances of getting those numbers are low. It's simply risky.
As I said though, it does work ... it's just rare.
What really makes me laugh is those who say they will never touch a F2P game. That is a terrible mind set and is absolute ignorance at it's finest. So you are telling me, that if by chance the greatest game ever created happens to be a F2P game ... you wouldn't touch it? You all do know that there are actually some pretty good F2P games out there. Not even that hard to find >.> ... either that or you all are very very biased and just are unwilling to accept that a F2P game can be good so you will not even give it a remote chance. Which is funny .. you all complain we should give ESO a chance passed level 10. PASSED level 10. That is a heck of a lot more then you all give a F2P game and judge it. Hypocrisy at it's finest.
I am a B2P and F2P supporter, but even I still would play P2P games if I feel the game is worth it. I don't act ignorant and say I will never touch a P2P game. That is just stupid. If a game is good enough and at the right price, I will certainly play it.
I, however, do not support companies using a P2P model and also double dipping into being able to purchase other content like a cash shop. If a game has a P2P model, I expect to get every part of the game 100%.
Some people talk about how it's old news with this whole CE business, but I assure you this is NOT the same as the past. Sure, it's normal for a game to have a CE. However, it is certainly not normal for a game to lock a race behind a CE. Whether you where planning on purchasing the CE anyway, really doesn't matter. It's about principles. It's just something a company should not ever do, and I do not support such behaviors.
Why would I buy something of which I don't support what the company itself is doing? Sorry, unlike the vast mindless drones of the MMO world, I vote with my money and I since I work in the industry, I know very well what good business practices are in the game industry.