I don't know if max level should be a given, but these games should stop to let everyone win.
If there's no losers, there's no winners either, and that's what people want from games; they want to win. Let it be realms first max level character, best dps in your group, beating another player in a duel, etc. it's all the same.
If there's anything in a game you can get just by showing up, it becomes pointless.
- Hey, i just hit the level cap!
- About bloody time, why did it take so long..?
Many people say MMOs begin when you reach the level cap. That's mostly because getting there is so easy and trivial it's considered an extended tutorial. The real game is in an end game, when your progress slows down.
Now, think about if the progress was slowed down from the very beginning, and the whole game was a huge end game. That's the game i'd want to play.
It's funny, I was just thinking about this thread and my previous post about Rappelz. The game is a grinder and the grind was so bad at high levels that it became a sort of glass ceiling. But now, I am thinking this kind of concept may not be so bad. Especially if we borrow a concept from another game. Anarchy Online. In Rappelz, basic gear is easily obtained. It's in the improvements to the gear where progression lies. OK, take out the unreasonable grind, RNG and P2W factors and you have a decent base. Combine that with Anarchy Online where equipping gear is based on primary stats instead of levels and now you have a game where levels blend and there isn't a world of difference in players who are 5-10 levels apart. As well as a soft cap or cieling where no one really ever makes the highest level, and you have a possible solution to the end game issues that goes on in games like WoW where you get to cap and the game changes.
So instead of everyone being required to play the game they MUST play to get to the game they WANT to play, everyone is playing the same game from "go".
With a very small number of exceptions getting to max level is nearly a given in mmorpg's. If you have enough time and patience, you will get there. It's not hard (skill wise) nor has it ever really been hard. I've never heard another player say, "I couldn't reach max level because it's too difficult". A lot of players claim the "real" game starts at max level.
So I'm wondering if anyone has ever tried breaking that trend. Instead of giving away experience and levels like they're candy make them earned. Make levels more like a belt system in martial arts. You have to demonstrate ability and knowledge to be able to advance. The majority of players will not get anywhere near the top. Some will not advance at all.
The idea is to change the focus from rushing to max to level to becoming proficient with your class.
This would make a lot of sense in an education system. You become a brown belt in Mathematics once you are tested to be proficient in differential equations.
I don't see this as something that would work well for a lot of people in video games though. Leveling to max level is a given. It's kind of like completing the single player story line is a given in RPGs or FPS games. That's the experience that most people are paying for.
I could see this being functional in a few ways, even if it wouldn't necessarily sell a lot of copies. Remove any sort of over arching story line where the player receives a beginning, middle and then finale narrative. The game would have to be repetitive, if for no other reason than players would have to keep retrying content that they had "failed". If the developer continually added content so that existing content became easier, then the narrative could be added back in, since players would eventually get to see it. So in short, you just have WoW's end game, League of Legends, DOTA2 and maybe Vindictus. The final way I can think of would be to untie leveling to the game world, kind of how Skyrim and Fallout work. You can see much of Skyrim or Fallout's world and story lines without ever reaching max level, but that just makes leveling unimportant. If leveling is actually important, this won't work.
That bugs me. Is that what gaming has been reduced to, "I paid my dues so I deserve to win"? Do we walk into a martial arts dojo and say, "I paid my membership fee now where's my black belt".
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
i only can think of 1 game i played which had/have this and where it was/is working - a MUD called Mozart.
it has 110 levels, but most of the people only reach level 99, levels 100-110 are so called avatar levels and you need knowledge, skill and endurance to reach them.
it worked for several reasons:
1. avatars were stronger then lev 99 chars, but not really significantly stronger (at least not in the avatar system Mozart uses in cca last 15 years, they were a lot stronger before) - f.e. it didnt have usual MMORPG feature where you hit mobs a lot less then they are even only a few levels above you.
2. number of 99 chars was SIGNIFICANTLY higher then number of avatars and therefore it was a lot easier to get a lev 99 chars to group for something then avatars (it was really quite hard and also took a long time, usually people spend hours with just preparations)
3. group of lev 99 players was more or less capable of doing anything group of avatars was capable, only they were usually more vulnerable
4. it was strictly forbidden to share information about so called avatar challenge (or any other special quest area), where you have to go to get avatar level, AND MOST OF THE PLAYERS REALLY DIDNT SHARE ANY INFORMATION. dont think there is any chance in current mmorpgs of that happening, not to mention that muds are/were played by significantly less people then mmorpgs, and there is usually enough if 1 person shares the information.
so do i think could it work in mmorpgs? i think it could, but only if the last levels didnt added a lot in a way of strength of character, if they were more of a vanity thing.
That bugs me. Is that what gaming has been reduced to, "I paid my dues so I deserve to win"? Do we walk into a martial arts dojo and say, "I paid my membership fee now where's my black belt".
Yes. It is entertainment, built on illusion of achievement.
If you want real achievement, go get a black belt, or an advance degree. Games are not where you find it.
It would not be very good entertainment if half of the population do not even see the end of the content. Can you imagine a SP game that most players don't see the ending?
That bugs me. Is that what gaming has been reduced to, "I paid my dues so I deserve to win"? Do we walk into a martial arts dojo and say, "I paid my membership fee now where's my black belt".
Yes. It is entertainment, built on illusion of achievement.
If you want real achievement, go get a black belt, or an advance degree. Games are not where you find it.
It would not be very good entertainment if half of the population do not even see the end of the content. Can you imagine a SP game that most players don't see the ending?
There are many SP games where half the population don't see the ending.
With a very small number of exceptions getting to max level is nearly a given in mmorpg's. If you have enough time and patience, you will get there. It's not hard (skill wise) nor has it ever really been hard. I've never heard another player say, "I couldn't reach max level because it's too difficult". A lot of players claim the "real" game starts at max level.
So I'm wondering if anyone has ever tried breaking that trend. Instead of giving away experience and levels like they're candy make them earned. Make levels more like a belt system in martial arts. You have to demonstrate ability and knowledge to be able to advance. The majority of players will not get anywhere near the top. Some will not advance at all.
The idea is to change the focus from rushing to max to level to becoming proficient with your class.
This would make a lot of sense in an education system. You become a brown belt in Mathematics once you are tested to be proficient in differential equations.
I don't see this as something that would work well for a lot of people in video games though. Leveling to max level is a given. It's kind of like completing the single player story line is a given in RPGs or FPS games. That's the experience that most people are paying for.
I could see this being functional in a few ways, even if it wouldn't necessarily sell a lot of copies. Remove any sort of over arching story line where the player receives a beginning, middle and then finale narrative. The game would have to be repetitive, if for no other reason than players would have to keep retrying content that they had "failed". If the developer continually added content so that existing content became easier, then the narrative could be added back in, since players would eventually get to see it. So in short, you just have WoW's end game, League of Legends, DOTA2 and maybe Vindictus. The final way I can think of would be to untie leveling to the game world, kind of how Skyrim and Fallout work. You can see much of Skyrim or Fallout's world and story lines without ever reaching max level, but that just makes leveling unimportant. If leveling is actually important, this won't work.
That bugs me. Is that what gaming has been reduced to, "I paid my dues so I deserve to win"? Do we walk into a martial arts dojo and say, "I paid my membership fee now where's my black belt".
Two things. One, playing video games isn't an achievement or a sport, it's entertainment. If someone buys a DvD, but can only watch the finale of the show by doing 100 push ups, not many of those DvDs are going to sell. Two, not guaranteeing a win already exists in the PvP aspects of games and the post leveling, PvE aspect of games.
Wait, are you just now noticing this? Are you a time traveling from the past or something?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
That bugs me. Is that what gaming has been reduced to, "I paid my dues so I deserve to win"? Do we walk into a martial arts dojo and say, "I paid my membership fee now where's my black belt".
Yes. It is entertainment, built on illusion of achievement.
If you want real achievement, go get a black belt, or an advance degree. Games are not where you find it.
It would not be very good entertainment if half of the population do not even see the end of the content. Can you imagine a SP game that most players don't see the ending?
Being that you play with other people in an MMO it is competition. That is why it's massively multiplayer. Single player games and coop games are for winning IMO. Most games in life that are multiplayer are competitive in some fashion. Perhaps the person likes to compete at MMOs. Perhaps they have no interest in obtaining a black belt in Karate. This is their preferred way to compete. Like you have said many times why is it wrong just because you don't like it that way?
That bugs me. Is that what gaming has been reduced to, "I paid my dues so I deserve to win"? Do we walk into a martial arts dojo and say, "I paid my membership fee now where's my black belt".
Yes. It is entertainment, built on illusion of achievement.
If you want real achievement, go get a black belt, or an advance degree. Games are not where you find it.
It would not be very good entertainment if half of the population do not even see the end of the content. Can you imagine a SP game that most players don't see the ending?
There are many SP games where half the population don't see the ending.
They are called "Shitty Games"
They are not "shitty games". They are the only games that are worth playing. Why would i waste my time for something where the most difficult task was left-click mouse?
This is exactly the same issue than what some people have said about raiding in wow; the best reward is seeing content. This applies to single player games too.
That bugs me. Is that what gaming has been reduced to, "I paid my dues so I deserve to win"? Do we walk into a martial arts dojo and say, "I paid my membership fee now where's my black belt".
Yes. It is entertainment, built on illusion of achievement.
If you want real achievement, go get a black belt, or an advance degree. Games are not where you find it.
It would not be very good entertainment if half of the population do not even see the end of the content. Can you imagine a SP game that most players don't see the ending?
Can you define a "real achievement" for me? Considering you were advocating videos games are sports, that's an interesting position to take. Was winning the $1,000,000 prize in the LoL championship a "real achievement"?
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
That bugs me. Is that what gaming has been reduced to, "I paid my dues so I deserve to win"? Do we walk into a martial arts dojo and say, "I paid my membership fee now where's my black belt".
Yes. It is entertainment, built on illusion of achievement.
If you want real achievement, go get a black belt, or an advance degree. Games are not where you find it.
It would not be very good entertainment if half of the population do not even see the end of the content. Can you imagine a SP game that most players don't see the ending?
I think it would be fine in a sandbox sort of game. As mentioned earlier, there were MUDD's that didn't have caps. I remember Dragonrealms was like that, at least when I played it back in the 90's. the game is still going to this day so there is a market for that sort of thing.
But yeah, I agree... at least in regards a theme park(at least the way they're built, now) that had no cap probably wouldn't work. You'd probably have a bunch of people on unemployment grinding 24/7 with nothing to do but PvP with other unemployed Crystal Meth users, with no one else wanting anything to do with it.
I like the system in Eve, though. There's only so much you can train to for any given ship or its components. And even then, the rock/paper/scissors way the ships and loadout work make it interesting.
TSW sort of did this. Technically, there are no levels but you do need quite a bit of player skill to progress. They call it horizontal progression. Most players in TSW will hit a wall (hard) in Blue Mountain, the third location you'll end up in after the beginner areas. The only way to continue successfully past Blue Mountain is to learn the ability wheel and adjust as needed. So, yeah, TSW does actually require some player skill if you ever want to be successful at it.
And the result of that is a lot of complaining. Google "tsw blue mountain too hard" and you'll get over 40,000 hits. A lot of people rage-quit at that point. So my guess would be that making leveling more difficult by requiring greater player skill would be a massive failure for whichever game tried it.
That bugs me. Is that what gaming has been reduced to, "I paid my dues so I deserve to win"? Do we walk into a martial arts dojo and say, "I paid my membership fee now where's my black belt".
Yes. It is entertainment, built on illusion of achievement.
If you want real achievement, go get a black belt, or an advance degree. Games are not where you find it.
It would not be very good entertainment if half of the population do not even see the end of the content. Can you imagine a SP game that most players don't see the ending?
I think it would be fine in a sandbox sort of game. As mentioned earlier, there were MUDD's that didn't have caps. I remember Dragonrealms was like that, at least when I played it back in the 90's. the game is still going to this day so there is a market for that sort of thing.
But yeah, I agree... at least in regards a theme park(at least the way they're built, now) that had no cap probably wouldn't work. You'd probably have a bunch of people on unemployment grinding 24/7 with nothing to do but PvP with other unemployed Crystal Meth users, with no one else wanting anything to do with it.
I like the system in Eve, though. There's only so much you can train to for any given ship or its components. And even then, the rock/paper/scissors way the ships and loadout work make it interesting.
I think this is a bad attitude. You first assume that people who want to spend time at something are unemployed. Then you say they are all crystal meth users. These are all assumptions. Even if they were what is it to you? Maybe it's just a lot of people who really like to play a certain game. I see to many people on this board who say don't criticize my choice of wanting cash shop and easy solo play. Then they turn around and try to insult you for wanting something different yourself.
That bugs me. Is that what gaming has been reduced to, "I paid my dues so I deserve to win"? Do we walk into a martial arts dojo and say, "I paid my membership fee now where's my black belt".
Yes. It is entertainment, built on illusion of achievement.
If you want real achievement, go get a black belt, or an advance degree. Games are not where you find it.
It would not be very good entertainment if half of the population do not even see the end of the content. Can you imagine a SP game that most players don't see the ending?
There are many SP games where half the population don't see the ending.
They are called "Shitty Games"
They are not "shitty games". They are the only games that are worth playing. Why would i waste my time for something where the most difficult task was left-click mouse?
This is exactly the same issue than what some people have said about raiding in wow; the best reward is seeing content. This applies to single player games too.
I classify many games as shitty
But as far as this topic is concerned:
There is a fine balance between "entertainment" "challenge" "achievement" and "frustration". The best developer's are extremely talented at providing you with the entertainment, challenge and achievement while keeping the frustration to a minimum.
Personally, I feel like the leveling experience should be long and a large part of the journey. That being said, I believe there is plenty of room for games like that as well as end game being everything type games. No need to pigeon hole yourself into one style of game imo.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV Have played: You name it If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
That bugs me. Is that what gaming has been reduced to, "I paid my dues so I deserve to win"? Do we walk into a martial arts dojo and say, "I paid my membership fee now where's my black belt".
Yes. It is entertainment, built on illusion of achievement.
If you want real achievement, go get a black belt, or an advance degree. Games are not where you find it.
It would not be very good entertainment if half of the population do not even see the end of the content. Can you imagine a SP game that most players don't see the ending?
There are many SP games where half the population don't see the ending.
They are called "Shitty Games"
They are not "shitty games". They are the only games that are worth playing. Why would i waste my time for something where the most difficult task was left-click mouse?
This is exactly the same issue than what some people have said about raiding in wow; the best reward is seeing content. This applies to single player games too.
I classify many games as shitty
But as far as this topic is concerned:
There is a fine balance between "entertainment" "challenge" "achievement" and "frustration". The best developer's are extremely talented at providing you with the entertainment, challenge and achievement while keeping the frustration to a minimum.
TSW sort of did this. Technically, there are no levels but you do need quite a bit of player skill to progress. They call it horizontal progression. Most players in TSW will hit a wall (hard) in Blue Mountain, the third location you'll end up in after the beginner areas. The only way to continue successfully past Blue Mountain is to learn the ability wheel and adjust as needed. So, yeah, TSW does actually require some player skill if you ever want to be successful at it.
And the result of that is a lot of complaining. Google "tsw blue mountain too hard" and you'll get over 40,000 hits. A lot of people rage-quit at that point. So my guess would be that making leveling more difficult by requiring greater player skill would be a massive failure for whichever game tried it.
Not really, TSW had gear level unlocks which acted like levels for bits of equipment. If it just had the ability wheel and no power progression then that might have been the case.
I'd like to see more games make getting to max level both really hard and time consuming so it would be something really dedicated and elite players would actually achieve and when they did it would really mean something. However we live in a generation where people get prizes just for showing up and people constantly compare themselves to others and want the same things they have so a lot of people will whine about this.
One reason I think EVE-style skill training is much better than D&D style levels for MMOs. You still have vast power gulfs that reward people who've been playing the game a long time but you don't have one number that the whiners can latch on to.
Of course you have to have some fun stuff the weak/new players can do to feel part of the game world. No one wants to grind boars for a year just to get to the fun stuff.
Character progression is a core aspect of an RPG / MMORPG, for me. It should not last 2 weeks like in most MMOs. For me, the MMOs of last decade built around endgame design (=level to cap in a week or two and then get involved in BGs, Raids, etc) are not RPGs at all.
I think MMOs sacrificed the RPG part to be balanced. With this design, everyone is capped in two weeks, so you have perfectly competitive PVE / PVP. I am not sure whether it was something RPG players asked for, but we got that anyway. Practically every single MMO is like that now.
Maybe there isnt a market for games with long character progression. Maybe players prefer this endgame design. If they didnt, why would all games be built around it. But then again, people did not appreciate getting capped in Diablo III for instance which is why Blizz implemented Paragon levels and even made them infinite in the last patch.
Anyway, I personally prefer very long character progression over short one.
I believe it was Pathfinder Online where I read that getting to cap should last around 2 years. Got me interested.
people don't appreciate level gaps because they attract every dork in the genre. Open pvp has the same issue. Unoriginal people.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I would argue that levels, as they originally existed, are a largely obsolete concept, just one number in a spawling suite of different avenues of progression (story, gear, rep, collections, achievements, rankings, etc) that involves both plateaus to aim for and endless grinds to delve into. Having a character level at all is just a piece of historical baggage in peoples' expectations.
That bugs me. Is that what gaming has been reduced to, "I paid my dues so I deserve to win"? Do we walk into a martial arts dojo and say, "I paid my membership fee now where's my black belt".
Yes. It is entertainment, built on illusion of achievement.
If you want real achievement, go get a black belt, or an advance degree. Games are not where you find it.
It would not be very good entertainment if half of the population do not even see the end of the content. Can you imagine a SP game that most players don't see the ending?
I think it would be fine in a sandbox sort of game. As mentioned earlier, there were MUDD's that didn't have caps. I remember Dragonrealms was like that, at least when I played it back in the 90's. the game is still going to this day so there is a market for that sort of thing.
But yeah, I agree... at least in regards a theme park(at least the way they're built, now) that had no cap probably wouldn't work. You'd probably have a bunch of people on unemployment grinding 24/7 with nothing to do but PvP with other unemployed Crystal Meth users, with no one else wanting anything to do with it.
I like the system in Eve, though. There's only so much you can train to for any given ship or its components. And even then, the rock/paper/scissors way the ships and loadout work make it interesting.
I think this is a bad attitude. You first assume that people who want to spend time at something are unemployed. Then you say they are all crystal meth users. These are all assumptions. Even if they were what is it to you? Maybe it's just a lot of people who really like to play a certain game. I see to many people on this board who say don't criticize my choice of wanting cash shop and easy solo play. Then they turn around and try to insult you for wanting something different yourself.
My apologies, as that's not how I intended it.
I don't mean that people who'd want to spend alot of time playing the game are unemployed. What I'm saying is, those who will have the most time to play the game will BE unemployed people. You may want to spend time developing a character, but so long as you have a job and other commitments, you're going to lag way behind someone who is unemployed, therefore can play all the time. Same thing for the meth reference, as you'll be able to advance faster if you don't have to deal with all that "sleep" nonsense.
I wasn't meaning at all to slander people who devote alot of free time to these games(I've certainly devoted no shortage of time playing, myself), and looking back on what I typed I can see how a person might think that, so again I apologize.
Comments
I don't know if max level should be a given, but these games should stop to let everyone win.
If there's no losers, there's no winners either, and that's what people want from games; they want to win. Let it be realms first max level character, best dps in your group, beating another player in a duel, etc. it's all the same.
If there's anything in a game you can get just by showing up, it becomes pointless.
- Hey, i just hit the level cap!
- About bloody time, why did it take so long..?
Many people say MMOs begin when you reach the level cap. That's mostly because getting there is so easy and trivial it's considered an extended tutorial. The real game is in an end game, when your progress slows down.
Now, think about if the progress was slowed down from the very beginning, and the whole game was a huge end game. That's the game i'd want to play.
It's funny, I was just thinking about this thread and my previous post about Rappelz. The game is a grinder and the grind was so bad at high levels that it became a sort of glass ceiling. But now, I am thinking this kind of concept may not be so bad. Especially if we borrow a concept from another game. Anarchy Online. In Rappelz, basic gear is easily obtained. It's in the improvements to the gear where progression lies. OK, take out the unreasonable grind, RNG and P2W factors and you have a decent base. Combine that with Anarchy Online where equipping gear is based on primary stats instead of levels and now you have a game where levels blend and there isn't a world of difference in players who are 5-10 levels apart. As well as a soft cap or cieling where no one really ever makes the highest level, and you have a possible solution to the end game issues that goes on in games like WoW where you get to cap and the game changes.
So instead of everyone being required to play the game they MUST play to get to the game they WANT to play, everyone is playing the same game from "go".
That bugs me. Is that what gaming has been reduced to, "I paid my dues so I deserve to win"? Do we walk into a martial arts dojo and say, "I paid my membership fee now where's my black belt".
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
i only can think of 1 game i played which had/have this and where it was/is working - a MUD called Mozart.
it has 110 levels, but most of the people only reach level 99, levels 100-110 are so called avatar levels and you need knowledge, skill and endurance to reach them.
it worked for several reasons:
1. avatars were stronger then lev 99 chars, but not really significantly stronger (at least not in the avatar system Mozart uses in cca last 15 years, they were a lot stronger before) - f.e. it didnt have usual MMORPG feature where you hit mobs a lot less then they are even only a few levels above you.
2. number of 99 chars was SIGNIFICANTLY higher then number of avatars and therefore it was a lot easier to get a lev 99 chars to group for something then avatars (it was really quite hard and also took a long time, usually people spend hours with just preparations)
3. group of lev 99 players was more or less capable of doing anything group of avatars was capable, only they were usually more vulnerable
4. it was strictly forbidden to share information about so called avatar challenge (or any other special quest area), where you have to go to get avatar level, AND MOST OF THE PLAYERS REALLY DIDNT SHARE ANY INFORMATION. dont think there is any chance in current mmorpgs of that happening, not to mention that muds are/were played by significantly less people then mmorpgs, and there is usually enough if 1 person shares the information.
so do i think could it work in mmorpgs? i think it could, but only if the last levels didnt added a lot in a way of strength of character, if they were more of a vanity thing.
Yes. It is entertainment, built on illusion of achievement.
If you want real achievement, go get a black belt, or an advance degree. Games are not where you find it.
It would not be very good entertainment if half of the population do not even see the end of the content. Can you imagine a SP game that most players don't see the ending?
There are many SP games where half the population don't see the ending.
They are called "Shitty Games"
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Two things. One, playing video games isn't an achievement or a sport, it's entertainment. If someone buys a DvD, but can only watch the finale of the show by doing 100 push ups, not many of those DvDs are going to sell. Two, not guaranteeing a win already exists in the PvP aspects of games and the post leveling, PvE aspect of games.
Wait, are you just now noticing this? Are you a time traveling from the past or something?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Yes.
(pardon the quote is messed up.)
Being that you play with other people in an MMO it is competition. That is why it's massively multiplayer. Single player games and coop games are for winning IMO. Most games in life that are multiplayer are competitive in some fashion. Perhaps the person likes to compete at MMOs. Perhaps they have no interest in obtaining a black belt in Karate. This is their preferred way to compete. Like you have said many times why is it wrong just because you don't like it that way?
They are not "shitty games". They are the only games that are worth playing. Why would i waste my time for something where the most difficult task was left-click mouse?
This is exactly the same issue than what some people have said about raiding in wow; the best reward is seeing content. This applies to single player games too.
Can you define a "real achievement" for me? Considering you were advocating videos games are sports, that's an interesting position to take. Was winning the $1,000,000 prize in the LoL championship a "real achievement"?
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
I think it would be fine in a sandbox sort of game. As mentioned earlier, there were MUDD's that didn't have caps. I remember Dragonrealms was like that, at least when I played it back in the 90's. the game is still going to this day so there is a market for that sort of thing.
But yeah, I agree... at least in regards a theme park(at least the way they're built, now) that had no cap probably wouldn't work. You'd probably have a bunch of people on unemployment grinding 24/7 with nothing to do but PvP with other unemployed Crystal Meth users, with no one else wanting anything to do with it.
I like the system in Eve, though. There's only so much you can train to for any given ship or its components. And even then, the rock/paper/scissors way the ships and loadout work make it interesting.
TSW sort of did this. Technically, there are no levels but you do need quite a bit of player skill to progress. They call it horizontal progression. Most players in TSW will hit a wall (hard) in Blue Mountain, the third location you'll end up in after the beginner areas. The only way to continue successfully past Blue Mountain is to learn the ability wheel and adjust as needed. So, yeah, TSW does actually require some player skill if you ever want to be successful at it.
And the result of that is a lot of complaining. Google "tsw blue mountain too hard" and you'll get over 40,000 hits. A lot of people rage-quit at that point. So my guess would be that making leveling more difficult by requiring greater player skill would be a massive failure for whichever game tried it.
I think this is a bad attitude. You first assume that people who want to spend time at something are unemployed. Then you say they are all crystal meth users. These are all assumptions. Even if they were what is it to you? Maybe it's just a lot of people who really like to play a certain game. I see to many people on this board who say don't criticize my choice of wanting cash shop and easy solo play. Then they turn around and try to insult you for wanting something different yourself.
I classify many games as shitty
But as far as this topic is concerned:
There is a fine balance between "entertainment" "challenge" "achievement" and "frustration". The best developer's are extremely talented at providing you with the entertainment, challenge and achievement while keeping the frustration to a minimum.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
Fair enough.. and agreed.
Not really, TSW had gear level unlocks which acted like levels for bits of equipment. If it just had the ability wheel and no power progression then that might have been the case.
I'd like to see more games make getting to max level both really hard and time consuming so it would be something really dedicated and elite players would actually achieve and when they did it would really mean something. However we live in a generation where people get prizes just for showing up and people constantly compare themselves to others and want the same things they have so a lot of people will whine about this.
One reason I think EVE-style skill training is much better than D&D style levels for MMOs. You still have vast power gulfs that reward people who've been playing the game a long time but you don't have one number that the whiners can latch on to.
Of course you have to have some fun stuff the weak/new players can do to feel part of the game world. No one wants to grind boars for a year just to get to the fun stuff.
people don't appreciate level gaps because they attract every dork in the genre. Open pvp has the same issue. Unoriginal people.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I would argue that levels, as they originally existed, are a largely obsolete concept, just one number in a spawling suite of different avenues of progression (story, gear, rep, collections, achievements, rankings, etc) that involves both plateaus to aim for and endless grinds to delve into. Having a character level at all is just a piece of historical baggage in peoples' expectations.
My apologies, as that's not how I intended it.
I don't mean that people who'd want to spend alot of time playing the game are unemployed. What I'm saying is, those who will have the most time to play the game will BE unemployed people. You may want to spend time developing a character, but so long as you have a job and other commitments, you're going to lag way behind someone who is unemployed, therefore can play all the time. Same thing for the meth reference, as you'll be able to advance faster if you don't have to deal with all that "sleep" nonsense.
I wasn't meaning at all to slander people who devote alot of free time to these games(I've certainly devoted no shortage of time playing, myself), and looking back on what I typed I can see how a person might think that, so again I apologize.