Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Understanding takes cognitive ability and often effort. Not just time. Reading and memorizing takes effort and understanding. Not just time. Getting the knowledge takes cognitive ability and often effort. Not just time.
Intelligence is the ability to gather and use information.
Absolutely no-one and nothing gets better at anything just by putting in time.
That's exactly what old games required. You needed to read websites to learn how to accomplish things in the games in many cases. If not that then you had to learn through trial and error. Either way there was a lot more to learn about in those games then there is to learn in games today. Since they followed PnP more closely they had a lot more to them even though they had a lot less flash graphics wise. I could go over the many different things you had to learn in game, but perhaps the most important was having to coexist with other people. To learn to do that was not an easy task weather you soloed or not. Competition and coexistence wasn't the only thing that made it hard though. You had to learn a myriad of things to survive in game. There were a lot of little things that don't exist in games anymore. All of them added up to a game that required you to study a lot more and put a lot more effort in to succeed. That is not dissimilar from real life.
That is very subjective. Newer games also have a ton of little things that you need to learn to be good at the game. It's just if you do not care about the game in general, you do not bother finding out about them.
I disagree that older games followed PnP RPGs more closely. WoW is much closer to a PnP session than a game like UO or EQ. PnP has a lot of short cuts that "old school" MMORPG players would consider heresy in their video games.
Also, the things you listed generally cannot be learned by just spending time grinding the same content over and over.
I would disagree with that short of the grind, but PnP did often take a long time to get through an area or a dungeon (similar to EQ).
Lets take an example like a spellbook. In PnP your party didn't regain their health after a battle. You had to be healed by your healers. Spell casters were limited to a certain amount of spells per day that could be memorized. In EQ you had to sit and stare at you spell book to memorize or meditate. This was a simulation of the resting mechanic. This was put in place to make it more difficult for parties to quickly regain their health and move on to the next fight. They had to be careful to fight effectively during combat because they couldn't afford to lose a lot of health or waste their spells. Admittedly it's not as hard core as the PnP version, but it's a closer resemblance.
Then you have the classes which are fairly close to DnD 1st and 2nd edition classes and rules.
Of course there are other things like eating food, having to use torches or light sources to see in the dark, having the ability to sense heading to know which direction you are going in, and learning other races languages.
Not all of these things made the game more difficult, but some did and adding together all the different things you could do in a game like EQ made it a lot of knowledge to acquire compared to other games.
In most games now you have a tutorial to tell you how to do everything and most of the things I talked about are stripped out. Usually you start with a quest and that brings you to a place (via GPS) where you do another quest, and that again leads you to a place where there is yet another quest. Rarely are you ever challenged before endgame and you are given very little freedom of choice.
Time may not equal difficulty, but it is part of the larger difficulty. There were many little things that added up to make older games difficult. Time would probably the test of patience and attrition. It's like those trials you see in old movies/games where the hero has to pass different trials to succeed.
Originally posted by adderVXI I would like to see it be an achivement like it was in EQ. Trying to get to max lvl was half the challenge for me.
It is not challenging, just time-consuming. There is a huge difference.
I think we have gone through this before, but it is a challenge. It is a challenge of your commitment to succeed in the game just like it is your commitment to succeed at anything in life. If you are willing to put time into something you will usually become better at it.
Not to me.
There is no getting "better" at grinding mobs. The next one is the same as the old one. I do not consider time commitment a "game challenge" that i want to beat. You may as well say sitting in front of a wall 10 hours is a challenge of patience. Yes, it may be a challenge by some weird definition but not one i would want in an entertainment product.
And this does not change the fact that killing the next mob is easy mode.
An entertainment product is not life. There is no reason to make it boring by inserting artificial non-fun "challenges".
You don't seem to mind grinding easy mobs in Diablo 3 or the myriad of other super easy MMOs that are coming out these days.
You seem to under the erroneous impression that grinding mobs in Diablo 3 is easy. I don't suppose you actually have played the game on high difficulty.
Fighting in Diablo 3 is 100x more challenging than grinding mobs in EQ just because a) spawn is not static, b) elite/champ abilities are not static, and c) you are dead if you don't pay attention.
And hence, i love D3 challenging combat, and won't play a boring easy-mode leveling game like EQ.
I've played both EQ and Diablo 3 on the highest difficulty. While Diablo 3 is hard EQ was much harder. It had a lot more abilities and each class was unique in those abilities. Each ability had to be executed at an exact time to succeed. Yes you had to do it over and over again, but you have to do it over and over again in any game including Diablo 3.
With a very small number of exceptions getting to max level is nearly a given in mmorpg's. If you have enough time and patience, you will get there. It's not hard (skill wise) nor has it ever really been hard. I've never heard another player say, "I couldn't reach max level because it's too difficult". A lot of players claim the "real" game starts at max level.
So I'm wondering if anyone has ever tried breaking that trend. Instead of giving away experience and levels like they're candy make them earned. Make levels more like a belt system in martial arts. You have to demonstrate ability and knowledge to be able to advance. The majority of players will not get anywhere near the top. Some will not advance at all.
The idea is to change the focus from rushing to max to level to becoming proficient with your class.
There are some games designed such that max level is not a default assumption.
Wurm Online is one, 20 years is what it takes to max all skills on Eve Online, Darkfall was this way but the community had a hard time understanding that.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Originally posted by adderVXI I would like to see it be an achivement like it was in EQ. Trying to get to max lvl was half the challenge for me.
It is not challenging, just time-consuming. There is a huge difference.
I think we have gone through this before, but it is a challenge. It is a challenge of your commitment to succeed in the game just like it is your commitment to succeed at anything in life. If you are willing to put time into something you will usually become better at it.
Not to me.
There is no getting "better" at grinding mobs. The next one is the same as the old one. I do not consider time commitment a "game challenge" that i want to beat. You may as well say sitting in front of a wall 10 hours is a challenge of patience. Yes, it may be a challenge by some weird definition but not one i would want in an entertainment product.
And this does not change the fact that killing the next mob is easy mode.
An entertainment product is not life. There is no reason to make it boring by inserting artificial non-fun "challenges".
You don't seem to mind grinding easy mobs in Diablo 3 or the myriad of other super easy MMOs that are coming out these days.
You seem to under the erroneous impression that grinding mobs in Diablo 3 is easy. I don't suppose you actually have played the game on high difficulty.
Fighting in Diablo 3 is 100x more challenging than grinding mobs in EQ just because a) spawn is not static, b) elite/champ abilities are not static, and c) you are dead if you don't pay attention.
And hence, i love D3 challenging combat, and won't play a boring easy-mode leveling game like EQ.
The difficulty in ARPG's work on the same principle, increase the mobs health and damage. The AI does not get any better at higher difficulties. You don't need to be a better player, you just need better gear. There are posts on the D3 official forums complaining about this very fact.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Time may not equal difficulty, but it is part of the larger difficulty. There were many little things that added up to make older games difficult. Time would probably the test of patience and attrition. It's like those trials you see in old movies/games where the hero has to pass different trials to succeed.
Patience is not difficult, and i don't want my games to require patience. It is not entertaining.
I've played both EQ and Diablo 3 on the highest difficulty. While Diablo 3 is hard EQ was much harder. It had a lot more abilities and each class was unique in those abilities. Each ability had to be executed at an exact time to succeed. Yes you had to do it over and over again, but you have to do it over and over again in any game including Diablo 3.
You are talking about raids in EQ.
Mob grinding in EQ is easy-mode, and no where close to as hard as D3. Heck, i could just root & nuke static spawn as a wiz back when i level up in EQ. That is boring ... even if you don't throw in the horrible down-time.
I've played both EQ and Diablo 3 on the highest difficulty. While Diablo 3 is hard EQ was much harder. It had a lot more abilities and each class was unique in those abilities. Each ability had to be executed at an exact time to succeed. Yes you had to do it over and over again, but you have to do it over and over again in any game including Diablo 3.
You are talking about raids in EQ.
Mob grinding in EQ is easy-mode, and no where close to as hard as D3. Heck, i could just root & nuke static spawn as a wiz back when i level up in EQ. That is boring ... even if you don't throw in the horrible down-time.
Grinding mobs in original EQ was fairly difficult. You first had to have the right class, the right mob to kill, and keep said mob at a distance. If you were to take on a spell caster you would be dead. If said mob got into melee range you would be dead. Getting an add would be a lot more trouble then in Diablo 3. Just finding a class and strategy that worked well was a challenge unless someone else told you what worked or you looked it up on the internet.
As for patience it is hard. You are proving my point as you and many others would quit a game that required patience.
I've played both EQ and Diablo 3 on the highest difficulty. While Diablo 3 is hard EQ was much harder. It had a lot more abilities and each class was unique in those abilities. Each ability had to be executed at an exact time to succeed. Yes you had to do it over and over again, but you have to do it over and over again in any game including Diablo 3.
You are talking about raids in EQ.
Mob grinding in EQ is easy-mode, and no where close to as hard as D3. Heck, i could just root & nuke static spawn as a wiz back when i level up in EQ. That is boring ... even if you don't throw in the horrible down-time.
Grinding mobs in original EQ was fairly difficult. You first had to have the right class, the right mob to kill, and keep said mob at a distance. If you were to take on a spell caster you would be dead. If said mob got into melee range you would be dead. Getting an add would be a lot more trouble then in Diablo 3. Just finding a class and strategy that worked well was a challenge unless someone else told you what worked or you looked it up on the internet.
As for patience it is hard. You are proving my point as you and many others would quit a game that required patience.
Not that i remember. You remember the lizard temple? Or black burrow? Just single pull, root and nuke. Rinse and repeat. Not only it is easy ... it is repetitive and boring. I am glad no more games use that horrible design.
As for patience is hard ... let me put it this way .. it is not a fun (to me) challenge. It is just making a game boring. So yeah, i don't want to have anything to do with a game that needs patience. If you like to be doing repetitive boring stuff in a game to show that you can beat the "patience" challenge, it is your prerogative. But i am playing games to have fun, not to improve my patience skill.
It's an intriguing question and before I answer, I'd have to ask-- What would be the point of making max level unobtainable by some players? I don't mean that sarcastically or snidely, I'm just having a hard time imagining how that game looks substantially any different than MMOs we've already seen. We already have a high-level weeding process via ranked PvP, AvA, progression raiding, elite dungeons, etc. This would only seem to add another layer of sorting to the mix.
To the heart of the question, though. I rather like the concept of horizontal progression and diversification rather than typical levelling. While hitting max level is often a good feeling, it has never compared to when I made Master Ranger playing SWG. A game that seeks to make max level an accomplishment achieved by a few has a huge number of hurdles to overtake, most prominently the players themselves. It's been a long, long time since video gaming in general rewarded pure skill over time and persistence.
I've played both EQ and Diablo 3 on the highest difficulty. While Diablo 3 is hard EQ was much harder. It had a lot more abilities and each class was unique in those abilities. Each ability had to be executed at an exact time to succeed. Yes you had to do it over and over again, but you have to do it over and over again in any game including Diablo 3.
You are talking about raids in EQ.
Mob grinding in EQ is easy-mode, and no where close to as hard as D3. Heck, i could just root & nuke static spawn as a wiz back when i level up in EQ. That is boring ... even if you don't throw in the horrible down-time.
Grinding mobs in original EQ was fairly difficult. You first had to have the right class, the right mob to kill, and keep said mob at a distance. If you were to take on a spell caster you would be dead. If said mob got into melee range you would be dead. Getting an add would be a lot more trouble then in Diablo 3. Just finding a class and strategy that worked well was a challenge unless someone else told you what worked or you looked it up on the internet.
As for patience it is hard. You are proving my point as you and many others would quit a game that required patience.
Not that i remember. You remember the lizard temple? Or black burrow? Just single pull, root and nuke. Rinse and repeat. Not only it is easy ... it is repetitive and boring. I am glad no more games use that horrible design.
As for patience is hard ... let me put it this way .. it is not a fun (to me) challenge. It is just making a game boring. So yeah, i don't want to have anything to do with a game that needs patience. If you like to be doing repetitive boring stuff in a game to show that you can beat the "patience" challenge, it is your prerogative. But i am playing games to have fun, not to improve my patience skill.
If the challenge is no fun, count me out.
I actually remember that even simple warrior mobs with no real attacks were a challenge to kill. One wrong mistake and you were dead. Black Burrow was really easy to get adds and adds meant death. You also had to make sure you had lulled the mobs near each other to pull them one at a time. It certainly wasn't easy as there were trains all over the place and corpses all over the place. That was just in the early game. I don't believe the game was boring at all. It was very exciting because there were people all over the place competing for mobs, loot, bringing trains, helping each other. It was a lot more exciting then the boring can't lose quests with GPS to show you the way.
With a very small number of exceptions getting to max level is nearly a given in mmorpg's. If you have enough time and patience, you will get there. It's not hard (skill wise) nor has it ever really been hard. I've never heard another player say, "I couldn't reach max level because it's too difficult". A lot of players claim the "real" game starts at max level.
So I'm wondering if anyone has ever tried breaking that trend. Instead of giving away experience and levels like they're candy make them earned. Make levels more like a belt system in martial arts. You have to demonstrate ability and knowledge to be able to advance. The majority of players will not get anywhere near the top. Some will not advance at all.
The idea is to change the focus from rushing to max to level to becoming proficient with your class.
that wouldnt work. People are getting bored of leveling. making it a slower process wont stop the speed levelers. Just bores the other players even more, and they quit before even playing all the features which will still be locked behind a level gate.
With a very small number of exceptions getting to max level is nearly a given in mmorpg's. If you have enough time and patience, you will get there. It's not hard (skill wise) nor has it ever really been hard. I've never heard another player say, "I couldn't reach max level because it's too difficult". A lot of players claim the "real" game starts at max level.
So I'm wondering if anyone has ever tried breaking that trend. Instead of giving away experience and levels like they're candy make them earned. Make levels more like a belt system in martial arts. You have to demonstrate ability and knowledge to be able to advance. The majority of players will not get anywhere near the top. Some will not advance at all.
The idea is to change the focus from rushing to max to level to becoming proficient with your class.
that wouldnt work. People are getting bored of leveling. making it a slower process wont stop the speed levelers. Just bores the other players even more, and they quit before even playing all the features which will still be locked behind a level gate.
I didn't say make it slower (though that wouldn't bother me either). I wanted to make leveling require the player to demonstrate some proficiency at their class.
And are you sure players are "getting bored of leveling"? WoW, GW2, SW:TOR and FFXIV are some of the most popular mmorpg's out right now and they all have levels.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Originally posted by dave6660 With a very small number of exceptions getting to max level is nearly a given in mmorpg's. If you have enough time and patience, you will get there. It's not hard (skill wise) nor has it ever really been hard. I've never heard another player say, "I couldn't reach max level because it's too difficult". A lot of players claim the "real" game starts at max level.So I'm wondering if anyone has ever tried breaking that trend. Instead of giving away experience and levels like they're candy make them earned. Make levels more like a belt system in martial arts. You have to demonstrate ability and knowledge to be able to advance. The majority of players will not get anywhere near the top. Some will not advance at all.The idea is to change the focus from rushing to max to level to becoming proficient with your class.
I'd like to see this kind of system implemented in some games. Those players that do not like it, don't have to play, right?
GW2 was the worst at dishing out XP by by the buckets. They gave XP for almost everything your character did. The result was my characters usually out-leveled their zone before finishing what they wanted to do and became "de-leveled" before completing the zone.
I'd like to see this kind of "character proficiency" involved with leveling
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
If a game is promoted as not even beginning until end game then yes getting max level is a given. Everything leading up to it is a long ass tutorial on how to play your class and be the most you can be to help your group reach it's goal, which ultimately is reaching max level.
With a very small number of exceptions getting to max level is nearly a given in mmorpg's. If you have enough time and patience, you will get there. It's not hard (skill wise) nor has it ever really been hard. I've never heard another player say, "I couldn't reach max level because it's too difficult". A lot of players claim the "real" game starts at max level.
So I'm wondering if anyone has ever tried breaking that trend. Instead of giving away experience and levels like they're candy make them earned. Make levels more like a belt system in martial arts. You have to demonstrate ability and knowledge to be able to advance. The majority of players will not get anywhere near the top. Some will not advance at all.
The idea is to change the focus from rushing to max to level to becoming proficient with your class.
I would challenge the devs to introduce a MMO which does not have the level grind and entertain players to actually have fun and keep playing it and ignore the addiction to progress.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
With a very small number of exceptions getting to max level is nearly a given in mmorpg's. If you have enough time and patience, you will get there. It's not hard (skill wise) nor has it ever really been hard. I've never heard another player say, "I couldn't reach max level because it's too difficult". A lot of players claim the "real" game starts at max level.
So I'm wondering if anyone has ever tried breaking that trend. Instead of giving away experience and levels like they're candy make them earned. Make levels more like a belt system in martial arts. You have to demonstrate ability and knowledge to be able to advance. The majority of players will not get anywhere near the top. Some will not advance at all.
The idea is to change the focus from rushing to max to level to becoming proficient with your class.
I would challenge the devs to introduce a MMO which does not have the level grind and entertain players to actually have fun and keep playing it and ignore the addiction to progress.
The problem with that is everyone wants some form of acknowledgement for achievements in games. It's not good enough to have fancy armor, or sparkly weapons if there is nothing else to brag about.
I played Anarchy Online off and on for years and never got to max level. I just hated the final dungeon grind way too much. It felt like work, and I like to get paid to work, not have to pay for it. Still enjoyed my time in the game, though. I just decided I didn't need a level 220 and much fun was had on many alts instead.
The funny thing is, I don't know how I would have felt about it if there had been no max level to get to in the first place.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
I didn't say make it slower (though that wouldn't bother me either). I wanted to make leveling require the player to demonstrate some proficiency at their class.
Why would you want that?
It is not like video game is a sport, or a real life skill. It is just a fun activity to pass time. In fact, i would DISCOURAGE my sons to spend major amount of time to get proficient in playing some video games.
There are better skills to learn than how to DPS, and use CC.
Originally posted by dave6660 I didn't say make it slower (though that wouldn't bother me either). I wanted to make leveling require the player to demonstrate some proficiency at their class.
Why would you want that?It is not like video game is a sport, or a real life skill. It is just a fun activity to pass time. In fact, i would DISCOURAGE my sons to spend major amount of time to get proficient in playing some video games.There are better skills to learn than how to DPS, and use CC.
Like teamwork, getting along with others, the value of compromise... ya know those "useless" skills people can learn and improve upon simply by playing with others.
sheese... The ignorance of some people...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Comments
I would disagree with that short of the grind, but PnP did often take a long time to get through an area or a dungeon (similar to EQ).
Lets take an example like a spellbook. In PnP your party didn't regain their health after a battle. You had to be healed by your healers. Spell casters were limited to a certain amount of spells per day that could be memorized. In EQ you had to sit and stare at you spell book to memorize or meditate. This was a simulation of the resting mechanic. This was put in place to make it more difficult for parties to quickly regain their health and move on to the next fight. They had to be careful to fight effectively during combat because they couldn't afford to lose a lot of health or waste their spells. Admittedly it's not as hard core as the PnP version, but it's a closer resemblance.
Then you have the classes which are fairly close to DnD 1st and 2nd edition classes and rules.
Of course there are other things like eating food, having to use torches or light sources to see in the dark, having the ability to sense heading to know which direction you are going in, and learning other races languages.
Not all of these things made the game more difficult, but some did and adding together all the different things you could do in a game like EQ made it a lot of knowledge to acquire compared to other games.
In most games now you have a tutorial to tell you how to do everything and most of the things I talked about are stripped out. Usually you start with a quest and that brings you to a place (via GPS) where you do another quest, and that again leads you to a place where there is yet another quest. Rarely are you ever challenged before endgame and you are given very little freedom of choice.
Time may not equal difficulty, but it is part of the larger difficulty. There were many little things that added up to make older games difficult. Time would probably the test of patience and attrition. It's like those trials you see in old movies/games where the hero has to pass different trials to succeed.
I've played both EQ and Diablo 3 on the highest difficulty. While Diablo 3 is hard EQ was much harder. It had a lot more abilities and each class was unique in those abilities. Each ability had to be executed at an exact time to succeed. Yes you had to do it over and over again, but you have to do it over and over again in any game including Diablo 3.
There are some games designed such that max level is not a default assumption.
Wurm Online is one, 20 years is what it takes to max all skills on Eve Online, Darkfall was this way but the community had a hard time understanding that.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
The difficulty in ARPG's work on the same principle, increase the mobs health and damage. The AI does not get any better at higher difficulties. You don't need to be a better player, you just need better gear. There are posts on the D3 official forums complaining about this very fact.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Patience is not difficult, and i don't want my games to require patience. It is not entertaining.
You are talking about raids in EQ.
Mob grinding in EQ is easy-mode, and no where close to as hard as D3. Heck, i could just root & nuke static spawn as a wiz back when i level up in EQ. That is boring ... even if you don't throw in the horrible down-time.
Grinding mobs in original EQ was fairly difficult. You first had to have the right class, the right mob to kill, and keep said mob at a distance. If you were to take on a spell caster you would be dead. If said mob got into melee range you would be dead. Getting an add would be a lot more trouble then in Diablo 3. Just finding a class and strategy that worked well was a challenge unless someone else told you what worked or you looked it up on the internet.
As for patience it is hard. You are proving my point as you and many others would quit a game that required patience.
Not that i remember. You remember the lizard temple? Or black burrow? Just single pull, root and nuke. Rinse and repeat. Not only it is easy ... it is repetitive and boring. I am glad no more games use that horrible design.
As for patience is hard ... let me put it this way .. it is not a fun (to me) challenge. It is just making a game boring. So yeah, i don't want to have anything to do with a game that needs patience. If you like to be doing repetitive boring stuff in a game to show that you can beat the "patience" challenge, it is your prerogative. But i am playing games to have fun, not to improve my patience skill.
If the challenge is no fun, count me out.
It's an intriguing question and before I answer, I'd have to ask-- What would be the point of making max level unobtainable by some players? I don't mean that sarcastically or snidely, I'm just having a hard time imagining how that game looks substantially any different than MMOs we've already seen. We already have a high-level weeding process via ranked PvP, AvA, progression raiding, elite dungeons, etc. This would only seem to add another layer of sorting to the mix.
To the heart of the question, though. I rather like the concept of horizontal progression and diversification rather than typical levelling. While hitting max level is often a good feeling, it has never compared to when I made Master Ranger playing SWG. A game that seeks to make max level an accomplishment achieved by a few has a huge number of hurdles to overtake, most prominently the players themselves. It's been a long, long time since video gaming in general rewarded pure skill over time and persistence.
I actually remember that even simple warrior mobs with no real attacks were a challenge to kill. One wrong mistake and you were dead. Black Burrow was really easy to get adds and adds meant death. You also had to make sure you had lulled the mobs near each other to pull them one at a time. It certainly wasn't easy as there were trains all over the place and corpses all over the place. That was just in the early game. I don't believe the game was boring at all. It was very exciting because there were people all over the place competing for mobs, loot, bringing trains, helping each other. It was a lot more exciting then the boring can't lose quests with GPS to show you the way.
Completely off topic.
2 days ago was my 10 year anniversary.
10 years of survival in this forums.
Do I get a prize?
that wouldnt work. People are getting bored of leveling. making it a slower process wont stop the speed levelers. Just bores the other players even more, and they quit before even playing all the features which will still be locked behind a level gate.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
off topic, but wow I notice I have more post than you, yet been here for 4 years...
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I didn't say make it slower (though that wouldn't bother me either). I wanted to make leveling require the player to demonstrate some proficiency at their class.
And are you sure players are "getting bored of leveling"? WoW, GW2, SW:TOR and FFXIV are some of the most popular mmorpg's out right now and they all have levels.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
GW2 was the worst at dishing out XP by by the buckets. They gave XP for almost everything your character did. The result was my characters usually out-leveled their zone before finishing what they wanted to do and became "de-leveled" before completing the zone.
I'd like to see this kind of "character proficiency" involved with leveling
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Max level should be given because people are so godawfully blind they can't play a mmorpg if they can't reach the "maxium level" with ease.
But progression shouldn't stop at max level.
Character progression should truly _start_ at max level.
You obviously never played FFXI, the best and biggest MMORPG ever made.
Vanilla FFXI.
I would challenge the devs to introduce a MMO which does not have the level grind and entertain players to actually have fun and keep playing it and ignore the addiction to progress.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
The problem with that is everyone wants some form of acknowledgement for achievements in games. It's not good enough to have fancy armor, or sparkly weapons if there is nothing else to brag about.
I played Anarchy Online off and on for years and never got to max level. I just hated the final dungeon grind way too much. It felt like work, and I like to get paid to work, not have to pay for it. Still enjoyed my time in the game, though. I just decided I didn't need a level 220 and much fun was had on many alts instead.
The funny thing is, I don't know how I would have felt about it if there had been no max level to get to in the first place.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
Maybe a free psyche evaluation.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Why would you want that?
It is not like video game is a sport, or a real life skill. It is just a fun activity to pass time. In fact, i would DISCOURAGE my sons to spend major amount of time to get proficient in playing some video games.
There are better skills to learn than how to DPS, and use CC.
sheese... The ignorance of some people...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR