Anyway, to the OP, I know many people (at least 6) who, once they obtain the max level in wow, delete the toon and start over. Leveling is the point, for some.
There are a number of levels that are attainable in a similar fashion to current MMOs, topping out at a cap where all the most powerful gear is attainable, so on so forth. However, there would also be a small number of additional levels (veteran ranks, elite ranks, whatever) that can only be achieved via a combination of both time investment and true player skill with your class of choice, within your “game mode” of choice I.e. PvE, PvP etc.
These additional ranks would be status symbols themselves but they would also allow you to access a variety of additional status symbols depending on your level of achievement, such as cosmetic gear, alternate ability effects (visual,) awesome titles and so forth.
The ranks would be increasingly difficult to progress through and the numbers would be balanced in such a way that the average player does not even see the very first one. This solidifies them as symbols of status and indicators of skill while at the same time preventing them from becoming “competence checks” like the dreaded gear score in WoW for example.
Basically if you were to see someone with veteran/elite rank 1, you would know that they are rather talented. If you were to see a rank 10, you would know they are a god.
With a very small number of exceptions getting to max level is nearly a given in mmorpg's. If you have enough time and patience, you will get there. It's not hard (skill wise) nor has it ever really been hard. I've never heard another player say, "I couldn't reach max level because it's too difficult". A lot of players claim the "real" game starts at max level.
So I'm wondering if anyone has ever tried breaking that trend. Instead of giving away experience and levels like they're candy make them earned. Make levels more like a belt system in martial arts. You have to demonstrate ability and knowledge to be able to advance. The majority of players will not get anywhere near the top. Some will not advance at all.
The idea is to change the focus from rushing to max to level to becoming proficient with your class.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
That bugs me. Is that what gaming has been reduced to, "I paid my dues so I deserve to win"? Do we walk into a martial arts dojo and say, "I paid my membership fee now where's my black belt".
Yes. It is entertainment, built on illusion of achievement.
If you want real achievement, go get a black belt, or an advance degree. Games are not where you find it.
It would not be very good entertainment if half of the population do not even see the end of the content. Can you imagine a SP game that most players don't see the ending?
I think it would be fine in a sandbox sort of game. As mentioned earlier, there were MUDD's that didn't have caps. I remember Dragonrealms was like that, at least when I played it back in the 90's. the game is still going to this day so there is a market for that sort of thing.
But yeah, I agree... at least in regards a theme park(at least the way they're built, now) that had no cap probably wouldn't work. You'd probably have a bunch of people on unemployment grinding 24/7 with nothing to do but PvP with other unemployed Crystal Meth users, with no one else wanting anything to do with it.
I like the system in Eve, though. There's only so much you can train to for any given ship or its components. And even then, the rock/paper/scissors way the ships and loadout work make it interesting.
I think this is a bad attitude. You first assume that people who want to spend time at something are unemployed. Then you say they are all crystal meth users. These are all assumptions. Even if they were what is it to you? Maybe it's just a lot of people who really like to play a certain game. I see to many people on this board who say don't criticize my choice of wanting cash shop and easy solo play. Then they turn around and try to insult you for wanting something different yourself.
My apologies, as that's not how I intended it.
I don't mean that people who'd want to spend alot of time playing the game are unemployed. What I'm saying is, those who will have the most time to play the game will BE unemployed people. You may want to spend time developing a character, but so long as you have a job and other commitments, you're going to lag way behind someone who is unemployed, therefore can play all the time. Same thing for the meth reference, as you'll be able to advance faster if you don't have to deal with all that "sleep" nonsense.
I wasn't meaning at all to slander people who devote alot of free time to these games(I've certainly devoted no shortage of time playing, myself), and looking back on what I typed I can see how a person might think that, so again I apologize.
I am going to call this half-bullcrap. There is a difference between leveling a character and keeping up with the Jones. I would love a game that take 1000 hours to get to max level. If it takes me 2 years to get there and you 8 months that doesn't change my enjoyment of getting to cap in 2 years.
Perhaps you need to rethink what you really mean. It's not the journey you are talking about. It is something else.
Also, the unemployed deadbeat scenario that you have doesn't mention that the hardworking guy is getting other things in life. So in a tight minded view of the situation of just the MMORPG {M}, both players have a simple {M}. Whereas the TRUTH is that hardworking guy has {M} but also {AB....}. So if you step back you see there are advantages to both sides.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
There are a number of levels that are attainable in a similar fashion to current MMOs, topping out at a cap where all the most powerful gear is attainable, so on so forth. However, there would also be a small number of additional levels (veteran ranks, elite ranks, whatever) that can only be achieved via a combination of both time investment and true player skill with your class of choice, within your “game mode” of choice I.e. PvE, PvP etc.
These additional ranks would be status symbols themselves but they would also allow you to access a variety of additional status symbols depending on your level of achievement, such as cosmetic gear, alternate ability effects (visual,) awesome titles and so forth.
The ranks would be increasingly difficult to progress through and the numbers would be balanced in such a way that the average player does not even see the very first one. This solidifies them as symbols of status and indicators of skill while at the same time preventing them from becoming “competence checks” like the dreaded gear score in WoW for example.
Basically if you were to see someone with veteran/elite rank 1, you would know that they are rather talented. If you were to see a rank 10, you would know they are a god.
With a very small number of exceptions getting to max level is nearly a given in mmorpg's. If you have enough time and patience, you will get there. It's not hard (skill wise) nor has it ever really been hard. I've never heard another player say, "I couldn't reach max level because it's too difficult". A lot of players claim the "real" game starts at max level.
So I'm wondering if anyone has ever tried breaking that trend. Instead of giving away experience and levels like they're candy make them earned. Make levels more like a belt system in martial arts. You have to demonstrate ability and knowledge to be able to advance. The majority of players will not get anywhere near the top. Some will not advance at all.
The idea is to change the focus from rushing to max to level to becoming proficient with your class.
Because those Players that can't make it to max level NEVER WILL PUBLICLY ADMIT THIS (or seldom will). They would get eaten for lunch on game forums and here by the majority of the Players and maybe even some of the Devs themselves. Those Players will find another "explanation" as to why none of their characters made it to max level in a MMO.
But trust me.... there are MANY that never make it to max level... not the majority of Players of course, but many.... And there is nothing wrong with that. All is as it should be.
(in fact MMOs are too easy in general now and should be more challenging in my opinion.)
Then why do these Players play MMOs? To try them and see if they like them.... or keep playing MMOs? Because there is some parts of MMO games they like and they enjoy as much of it as they can.
Same as anything else. It is a fallacy to believe everyone can succeed. Some will get weeded out and quit, or try and hang on because they want to keep trying.... and to keep trying is not a bad thing at all.
I like your idea at the end. It would put the emphasis where I think it should have been all along.
Play a Korean MMO, and preferably one that isn't watered down to appeal to the western market.
On the original Lineage it took forever to gain even one level once you were past 50, and the xp loss was brutal when you died - during the time a friend and I played it on the US/EU servers there were no max level players, and when you saw someone who was in their 60's you knew it was a hardcore player.
Not really my thing, grinding endlessly for more bragging rights - but the games exist for those that want them.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Originally posted by adderVXI I would like to see it be an achivement like it was in EQ. Trying to get to max lvl was half the challenge for me.
It is not challenging, just time-consuming. There is a huge difference.
I think we have gone through this before, but it is a challenge. It is a challenge of your commitment to succeed in the game just like it is your commitment to succeed at anything in life. If you are willing to put time into something you will usually become better at it. Some people will argue this point, but generally things in life are just about putting in the time to learn how to do them optimally. Usually this involves a lot of boring repetition at times. For a person who doesn't like boring repetition it's interesting that you like Diablo 3's model so much. All that game is about is grinding for loot over and over and over gain. The challenge and loot increases a bit as you get to harder difficulties. The game itself is very small however so you end up repeating the same content a lot. It is a fair amount like what old school MMORPGs were like minus the linear path and lack of utility/fun stuff.
Every game that had any kind of content to test your skill before moving on has had to remove that content. There have been a few such games but the non-gamers (Casuals) didn't go for it.
Originally posted by adderVXI I would like to see it be an achivement like it was in EQ. Trying to get to max lvl was half the challenge for me.
It is not challenging, just time-consuming. There is a huge difference.
I think we have gone through this before, but it is a challenge. It is a challenge of your commitment to succeed in the game just like it is your commitment to succeed at anything in life. If you are willing to put time into something you will usually become better at it.
Not to me.
There is no getting "better" at grinding mobs. The next one is the same as the old one. I do not consider time commitment a "game challenge" that i want to beat. You may as well say sitting in front of a wall 10 hours is a challenge of patience. Yes, it may be a challenge by some weird definition but not one i would want in an entertainment product.
And this does not change the fact that killing the next mob is easy mode.
An entertainment product is not life. There is no reason to make it boring by inserting artificial non-fun "challenges".
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Nothing in life is just about putting in the time. Nothing.
To succeed in life takes understanding and ability. This take time but just putting in time will generally get you nothing.
The understanding simply comes form acquiring as much knowledge as possible. Generally this is through going to school and repeatedly reading/memorizing what other people tell you. Sure there is an element of having to work problems out, but generally it's just a matter of having the knowledge in the first place. It's why I don't understand when people spend all day studying and think they are smart. They are just taking what other people in the past spent a long time to work out and learn. In reality they are just knowledgeable. They aren't really smart. To progress in old games you had to gather a certain amount of knowledge of what worked in order to succeed. This generally required putting in the hours to learn how to either solo a certain class properly or how to group properly. If you couldn't do you weren't going to progress. Those that it came easy to likely had an experience in life that helped them to accomplish the task easier in the game.
Originally posted by adderVXI I would like to see it be an achivement like it was in EQ. Trying to get to max lvl was half the challenge for me.
It is not challenging, just time-consuming. There is a huge difference.
I think we have gone through this before, but it is a challenge. It is a challenge of your commitment to succeed in the game just like it is your commitment to succeed at anything in life. If you are willing to put time into something you will usually become better at it.
Not to me.
There is no getting "better" at grinding mobs. The next one is the same as the old one. I do not consider time commitment a "game challenge" that i want to beat. You may as well say sitting in front of a wall 10 hours is a challenge of patience. Yes, it may be a challenge by some weird definition but not one i would want in an entertainment product.
And this does not change the fact that killing the next mob is easy mode.
An entertainment product is not life. There is no reason to make it boring by inserting artificial non-fun "challenges".
You don't seem to mind grinding easy mobs in Diablo 3 or the myriad of other super easy MMOs that are coming out these days.
Understanding takes cognitive ability and often effort. Not just time. Reading and memorizing takes effort and understanding. Not just time. Getting the knowledge takes cognitive ability and often effort. Not just time.
Intelligence is the ability to gather and use information.
Absolutely no-one and nothing gets better at anything just by putting in time.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Old games imo by and large did not require any more knowledge or effort than new games n. They were just longer. Longer does not mean harder more challenge or more effort.
They did not require anymore understanding cognitive ability reasoning or effort than new games. Just more time.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Now admittedly some things in old games were different. But different does not equal harder or more challenge. That is an individual determination of ability.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Understanding takes cognitive ability and often effort. Not just time. Reading and memorizing takes effort and understanding. Not just time. Getting the knowledge takes cognitive ability and often effort. Not just time.
Intelligence is the ability to gather and use information.
Absolutely no-one and nothing gets better at anything just by putting in time.
That's exactly what old games required. You needed to read websites to learn how to accomplish things in the games in many cases. If not that then you had to learn through trial and error. Either way there was a lot more to learn about in those games then there is to learn in games today. Since they followed PnP more closely they had a lot more to them even though they had a lot less flash graphics wise. I could go over the many different things you had to learn in game, but perhaps the most important was having to coexist with other people. To learn to do that was not an easy task weather you soloed or not. Competition and coexistence wasn't the only thing that made it hard though. You had to learn a myriad of things to survive in game. There were a lot of little things that don't exist in games anymore. All of them added up to a game that required you to study a lot more and put a lot more effort in to succeed. That is not dissimilar from real life.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Understanding takes cognitive ability and often effort. Not just time. Reading and memorizing takes effort and understanding. Not just time. Getting the knowledge takes cognitive ability and often effort. Not just time.
Intelligence is the ability to gather and use information.
Absolutely no-one and nothing gets better at anything just by putting in time.
That's exactly what old games required. You needed to read websites to learn how to accomplish things in the games in many cases. If not that then you had to learn through trial and error. Either way there was a lot more to learn about in those games then there is to learn in games today. Since they followed PnP more closely they had a lot more to them even though they had a lot less flash graphics wise. I could go over the many different things you had to learn in game, but perhaps the most important was having to coexist with other people. To learn to do that was not an easy task weather you soloed or not. Competition and coexistence wasn't the only thing that made it hard though. You had to learn a myriad of things to survive in game. There were a lot of little things that don't exist in games anymore. All of them added up to a game that required you to study a lot more and put a lot more effort in to succeed. That is not dissimilar from real life.
That is very subjective. Newer games also have a ton of little things that you need to learn to be good at the game. It's just if you do not care about the game in general, you do not bother finding out about them.
I disagree that older games followed PnP RPGs more closely. WoW is much closer to a PnP session than a game like UO or EQ. PnP has a lot of short cuts that "old school" MMORPG players would consider heresy in their video games.
Also, the things you listed generally cannot be learned by just spending time grinding the same content over and over.
Originally posted by adderVXI I would like to see it be an achivement like it was in EQ. Trying to get to max lvl was half the challenge for me.
It is not challenging, just time-consuming. There is a huge difference.
I think we have gone through this before, but it is a challenge. It is a challenge of your commitment to succeed in the game just like it is your commitment to succeed at anything in life. If you are willing to put time into something you will usually become better at it.
Not to me.
There is no getting "better" at grinding mobs. The next one is the same as the old one. I do not consider time commitment a "game challenge" that i want to beat. You may as well say sitting in front of a wall 10 hours is a challenge of patience. Yes, it may be a challenge by some weird definition but not one i would want in an entertainment product.
And this does not change the fact that killing the next mob is easy mode.
An entertainment product is not life. There is no reason to make it boring by inserting artificial non-fun "challenges".
You don't seem to mind grinding easy mobs in Diablo 3 or the myriad of other super easy MMOs that are coming out these days.
You seem to under the erroneous impression that grinding mobs in Diablo 3 is easy. I don't suppose you actually have played the game on high difficulty.
Fighting in Diablo 3 is 100x more challenging than grinding mobs in EQ just because a) spawn is not static, b) elite/champ abilities are not static, and c) you are dead if you don't pay attention.
And hence, i love D3 challenging combat, and won't play a boring easy-mode leveling game like EQ.
Comments
whoa, this thread is getting long.
Anyway, to the OP, I know many people (at least 6) who, once they obtain the max level in wow, delete the toon and start over. Leveling is the point, for some.
The ideal system for me would be:
There are a number of levels that are attainable in a similar fashion to current MMOs, topping out at a cap where all the most powerful gear is attainable, so on so forth. However, there would also be a small number of additional levels (veteran ranks, elite ranks, whatever) that can only be achieved via a combination of both time investment and true player skill with your class of choice, within your “game mode” of choice I.e. PvE, PvP etc.
These additional ranks would be status symbols themselves but they would also allow you to access a variety of additional status symbols depending on your level of achievement, such as cosmetic gear, alternate ability effects (visual,) awesome titles and so forth.
The ranks would be increasingly difficult to progress through and the numbers would be balanced in such a way that the average player does not even see the very first one. This solidifies them as symbols of status and indicators of skill while at the same time preventing them from becoming “competence checks” like the dreaded gear score in WoW for example.
Basically if you were to see someone with veteran/elite rank 1, you would know that they are rather talented. If you were to see a rank 10, you would know they are a god.
You get the ideaA triple-A mmorpg would go broke with your idea.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I am going to call this half-bullcrap. There is a difference between leveling a character and keeping up with the Jones. I would love a game that take 1000 hours to get to max level. If it takes me 2 years to get there and you 8 months that doesn't change my enjoyment of getting to cap in 2 years.
Perhaps you need to rethink what you really mean. It's not the journey you are talking about. It is something else.
Also, the unemployed deadbeat scenario that you have doesn't mention that the hardworking guy is getting other things in life. So in a tight minded view of the situation of just the MMORPG {M}, both players have a simple {M}. Whereas the TRUTH is that hardworking guy has {M} but also {AB....}. So if you step back you see there are advantages to both sides.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
+1
Because those Players that can't make it to max level NEVER WILL PUBLICLY ADMIT THIS (or seldom will). They would get eaten for lunch on game forums and here by the majority of the Players and maybe even some of the Devs themselves. Those Players will find another "explanation" as to why none of their characters made it to max level in a MMO.
But trust me.... there are MANY that never make it to max level... not the majority of Players of course, but many.... And there is nothing wrong with that. All is as it should be.
(in fact MMOs are too easy in general now and should be more challenging in my opinion.)
Then why do these Players play MMOs? To try them and see if they like them.... or keep playing MMOs? Because there is some parts of MMO games they like and they enjoy as much of it as they can.
Same as anything else. It is a fallacy to believe everyone can succeed. Some will get weeded out and quit, or try and hang on because they want to keep trying.... and to keep trying is not a bad thing at all.
I like your idea at the end. It would put the emphasis where I think it should have been all along.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.
George Washington
"Selling level up, group runs.
We guarantee success."
PST
Play a Korean MMO, and preferably one that isn't watered down to appeal to the western market.
On the original Lineage it took forever to gain even one level once you were past 50, and the xp loss was brutal when you died - during the time a friend and I played it on the US/EU servers there were no max level players, and when you saw someone who was in their 60's you knew it was a hardcore player.
Not really my thing, grinding endlessly for more bragging rights - but the games exist for those that want them.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
It is not challenging, just time-consuming. There is a huge difference.
I think we have gone through this before, but it is a challenge. It is a challenge of your commitment to succeed in the game just like it is your commitment to succeed at anything in life. If you are willing to put time into something you will usually become better at it. Some people will argue this point, but generally things in life are just about putting in the time to learn how to do them optimally. Usually this involves a lot of boring repetition at times. For a person who doesn't like boring repetition it's interesting that you like Diablo 3's model so much. All that game is about is grinding for loot over and over and over gain. The challenge and loot increases a bit as you get to harder difficulties. The game itself is very small however so you end up repeating the same content a lot. It is a fair amount like what old school MMORPGs were like minus the linear path and lack of utility/fun stuff.
To succeed in life takes understanding and ability. This take time but just putting in time will generally get you nothing.
Not to me.
There is no getting "better" at grinding mobs. The next one is the same as the old one. I do not consider time commitment a "game challenge" that i want to beat. You may as well say sitting in front of a wall 10 hours is a challenge of patience. Yes, it may be a challenge by some weird definition but not one i would want in an entertainment product.
And this does not change the fact that killing the next mob is easy mode.
An entertainment product is not life. There is no reason to make it boring by inserting artificial non-fun "challenges".
The understanding simply comes form acquiring as much knowledge as possible. Generally this is through going to school and repeatedly reading/memorizing what other people tell you. Sure there is an element of having to work problems out, but generally it's just a matter of having the knowledge in the first place. It's why I don't understand when people spend all day studying and think they are smart. They are just taking what other people in the past spent a long time to work out and learn. In reality they are just knowledgeable. They aren't really smart. To progress in old games you had to gather a certain amount of knowledge of what worked in order to succeed. This generally required putting in the hours to learn how to either solo a certain class properly or how to group properly. If you couldn't do you weren't going to progress. Those that it came easy to likely had an experience in life that helped them to accomplish the task easier in the game.
It depends on the game.
If it's a WoW clone: yes
If it's heavy themepark: yes
If it's anything else: no
You don't seem to mind grinding easy mobs in Diablo 3 or the myriad of other super easy MMOs that are coming out these days.
Intelligence is the ability to gather and use information.
Absolutely no-one and nothing gets better at anything just by putting in time.
They did not require anymore understanding cognitive ability reasoning or effort than new games. Just more time.
That's exactly what old games required. You needed to read websites to learn how to accomplish things in the games in many cases. If not that then you had to learn through trial and error. Either way there was a lot more to learn about in those games then there is to learn in games today. Since they followed PnP more closely they had a lot more to them even though they had a lot less flash graphics wise. I could go over the many different things you had to learn in game, but perhaps the most important was having to coexist with other people. To learn to do that was not an easy task weather you soloed or not. Competition and coexistence wasn't the only thing that made it hard though. You had to learn a myriad of things to survive in game. There were a lot of little things that don't exist in games anymore. All of them added up to a game that required you to study a lot more and put a lot more effort in to succeed. That is not dissimilar from real life.
That is very subjective. Newer games also have a ton of little things that you need to learn to be good at the game. It's just if you do not care about the game in general, you do not bother finding out about them.
I disagree that older games followed PnP RPGs more closely. WoW is much closer to a PnP session than a game like UO or EQ. PnP has a lot of short cuts that "old school" MMORPG players would consider heresy in their video games.
Also, the things you listed generally cannot be learned by just spending time grinding the same content over and over.
You seem to under the erroneous impression that grinding mobs in Diablo 3 is easy. I don't suppose you actually have played the game on high difficulty.
Fighting in Diablo 3 is 100x more challenging than grinding mobs in EQ just because a) spawn is not static, b) elite/champ abilities are not static, and c) you are dead if you don't pay attention.
And hence, i love D3 challenging combat, and won't play a boring easy-mode leveling game like EQ.