Originally posted by Azzras Everyone is having fun bashing them, but they DID say that they have signed paperwork stating the dude would NOT give the tech to a 3rd party (Facebook). That is what this lawsuit is about, and they will most likely win this one.
Signed paperwork, a payoff offer (before the facebook buyout) and Carmack playing the semantics card (acknowledging he worked for Zenimax, worked in their sponsored VR research and stating "They don't own VR" - basically stating 'yes, Zenimax gave me all the tools I needed to develop and understand VR under the impression that it would make them some sort of financial/technological return on their investment, but instead I took everything I learned and went to another company...')
I dunno, to me it seems there is a lot of validity to Zenimax's suit here.
Originally posted by Torvaldr Originally posted by XzenOriginally posted by BMBenderOriginally posted by kitaradKeyword here is succeeds during his term of employment. Question is how much of Occulus can Zenimax prove was developed while he was working for them.
Since he admitted to using a portion of code owned by Zenimax this can only end one way unless he makes a deal.Now if he did use code owned by Zenimax it's not just patent trolling and he is a thief.He did no admit to using code owned by ZM. In fact he explicitly denies that. Read the articles posted. http://www.polygon.com/2014/5/1/5671670/carmack-oculus-zenimax bottom of page
John Carmack ? @ID_AA_Carmack Follow No work I have ever done has been patented. Zenimax owns the code that I wrote, but they don't own VR.
1:22 PM - 1 May 2014
If a single line of code in the current OR incorporates the above, he's on the hook legally and contractually.
Once it is patented you have a different burden of proof. Once it is patented you have to give up your rights to the invention. It is not cut and dry and Zenimax has to prove that Carmack was hired to develop the exact thing not just an idea..
I don't think this is going to work well for ZM's public perception. Very few techies or gamers like patent or IP squeezing. ZM doesn't have a patent claim, or they're not asserting one which makes the case less clear.
Personally, I hate that tech companies can silence innovation with NDAs and no-work clauses. I certainly don't think higher of ZM for trying the cash grab.
From my understanding, his contract stated that he would not let a 3rd party have access to the property. What that means is he was fine using it until the FB deal. That broke his contract.
I could be wrong on that, but the bottom line is it really really really looks like he took work from ZM and gave it to FB.
"Oculus uses zero lines of code that I wrote while under contract to Zenimax,"
Read carefully. Zenimax owns the code he wrote while at Zenimax but OR uses zero lines of code that I wrote while under contract to Zen.
From my understanding damn I hate all this social media stuff to sift through because everything gets garbled. He wrote the code for OR after he left so while he agrees Zenimax owns the code he wrote while he was with them since OR does not have any line of code he wrote while with them then they cannot claim it.
Probably the law in US is different and I am barking up the wrong tree
Keyword here is succeeds during his term of employment. Question is how much of Occulus can Zenimax prove was developed while he was working for them.
Since he admitted to using a portion of code owned by Zenimax this can only end one way unless he makes a deal.
What I do not get is why did Zenimax allow them to use the code then and not do anything about this before or register a patent before this was sold. It is very fishy I tell you we are not seeing the picture bet these people are all out to shanghai Zuckerberg.
What it sounds like is that Zenimax was trying to be the 'Good Neighbor' to the new guy on the block (Occulus) by seeming helpful and generous with the thought that if something became of the Rift that they would be able to say "Well remember that time we let you borrow the lawn mower?" and get in on some form of partnership or eventual buy-out of Occulus.
Sadly all that happened is Occulus moved out of state, kept the lawn mower and Zenimax's wife (Carmack) went with them.
Now Zenimax is suing to get the cost of the mower back!
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Once it is patented you have a different burden of proof. Once it is patented you have to give up your rights to the invention. It is not cut and dry and Zenimax has to prove that Carmack was hired to develop the exact thing not just an idea..
I don't think this is going to work well for ZM's public perception. Very few techies or gamers like patent or IP squeezing. ZM doesn't have a patent claim, or they're not asserting one which makes the case less clear.
Personally, I hate that tech companies can silence innovation with NDAs and no-work clauses. I certainly don't think higher of ZM for trying the cash grab.
From my understanding, his contract stated that he would not let a 3rd party have access to the property. What that means is he was fine using it until the FB deal. That broke his contract.
I could be wrong on that, but the bottom line is it really really really looks like he took work from ZM and gave it to FB.
Zenimax is the 1st party, Carmack is the 2nd party, and Oculus/Facebook are the 3rd party.
Originally posted by kitarad "Oculus uses zero lines of code that I wrote while under contract to Zenimax," Read carefully. Zenimax owns the code he wrote while at Zenimax but OR uses zero lines of code that I wrote while under contract to Zen.
ahh missed that one, makes it murkier but doesn't quite invalidate Zen's potential claim. All they have to prove is that work he did while under contract for them eliminated dead ends and furthered the maturation of tech currently used by OR. I assume via NDA, non-compete and the typical contractual clauses. R&D precedents are pretty clear as part of his originally contract was R&D. He would have been better served to give them right of 1st refusal before making the Facebook deal, he would have been in the clear then.
I think he left because they would not let him work on what he wanted. If you read all the stuff posted on the various sources it seems they never considered his work worth it. Now of course Zen is singing a different tune.
Originally posted by Xzen It's called patent trolling. Even if Zenimax is right legally I don't believe in IP so I agree with jury nullification.
You don't believe in intellectual property?
Maybe I should go create a website called MMORPG?
Maybe I should make a game called World of Warcraft?
Those are IPs after all.
What a ridiculous assertion. Should whoever owns Rift and the VR tech behind exclusively be allowed to create VR gear? The patent and IP system is so screwed that it has crippled innovation.
Where do you draw the ridiculous line? He isn't trying to create a VR system that says Zenimax on it is he so you're mmorpg analogy is shallow and short-sighted. By your purile argument people shouldn't be allowed to create websites or games period. He's not stealing an implementation. He's not copying another implementation. He's making his own and the previous company thinks they should have IP rights to the concepts, more specifically that they own rights to his ideas formed while working for them.
How would you like to be sued at your next job, in the same industry, because you're using ideas and tricks you learned at your last place of employment? That is what is going on here and why IP rules in tech are poison at the moment.
For my job, I signed an NDA that explicitly states I shall not use anything provided by my employers...even if I'm the one that created them. They own the rights.
With that said, the person I quoted said he doesn't believe in IPs.
Say IP is a broad statement. I SHOULD be sued if I used WoW's name, etc.
Anyway, if this guy didn't like the terms he shouldn't have signed the contract.
Edit:
And ZM DOES own the rights to anything he created while under their employ.
Originally posted by kitarad I think he left because they would not let him work on what he wanted. If you read all the stuff posted on the various sources it seems they never considered his work worth it. Now of course Zen is singing a different tune.
It still boils down to if resources/equipment/ideas he utilized while under contract for ZEN helped in the development in any way of OR. If yes then Zen has a case.
This is why I cannot stand Apple or any of their products. They litigate the hell out of competition and that is the only way they can stay viable. I'll never buy anything made by Apple. Zenimax is playing the same dirty kind of game. This is going to hurt their image if they pursue this. They wouldn't have done squat if the sale to Facebook hadn't taken place. Now that it is has...they are looking to make a money grab - the same thing they did for their game TESO with its stupid paywalls. Just a greedy frakking tech company is what Zenimax is.
Originally posted by kitarad Has the Zuckerberg deal been finalized ? Can this rift (sorry for the pun) between Zen and Carmack cause a problem to the deal ?
Originally posted by Teala This is why I cannot stand Apple or any of their products. They litigate the hell out of competition and that is the only way they can stay viable. I'll never buy anything made by Apple. Zenimax is playing the same dirty kind of game. This is going to hurt their image if they pursue this. They wouldn't have done squat if the sale to Facebook hadn't taken place. Now that it is has...they are looking to make a money grab - the same thing they did for their game TESO with its stupid paywalls. Just a greedy frakking tech company is what Zenimax is.
I'm not a fan of Zen and yes the PR fallout will hurt them some/little/a lot. But if he indeed furthered his research/development of the current OR tech at any point in time using Zen resources; they have a legal and moral claim to some portion of it. Like I said he would have been better served to legally sever any competing/contractual obligation prior to the Facebook deal. Outside looking in it does appear he is in violation of at least some of the standard contractual non-compete clauses typical in R&D contracts.
The guy admits the code he used belongs to Zenimax in WRITING.
The Occulus turns around and says they did nothing wrong using the stolen code.
I mean granted the whole industry is 99% stolen code and concept, but when the designer himself puts in writing the code in question belongs to Zenimax, then a court of law is going to agree.
But hey keep hating on Zenimax for defending their legal rights.
Originally posted by Thornrage Since Zenimax tried to settle before the Facebook buyout, would think they might have more of leg to stand on here than you are accepting.
Chances of this going in Zenimax favor - zero.
All this will do is get them negative publicity of a greedy company, again something that gamers despise.
Zenimax needs to decide if they want to be a media company or a patent troll company.
Sadly with this lawsuit, its clear where their priorities are,
Personally I do not know the in and outs of all of this, I just know that Zenimax has been trying to settle this for over a year. I wouldn't think they would do it for just a money grab as someone here is suggesting.
I agree.......because we all know they aren't about money grabbing. Like selling box sets then charging a sub then requiring you to upgrade for basic content on a game such as classes that should be included in normal box priceing.
Great. this dumb argument again. I remember when ALL MMOs sold a box and held a sub for players to play. Just because F2P has crept into this genre, you think no one is allowed to do it anymore.
Your hate for ESO is blinding you. Whatever, I don't care, I wont get into an argument with your type as I am just tired of hearing the same old sad story.
Good luck with your negativity. I will continue to enjoy what I consider one of the most fun MMOs I have played in a long time.
whoa now, ive only seen reviews. I was going to buy the elder scrolls online for launch as i do nearly every mmo but when they pulled that bullshit with the collectors edition items i opted out. i havent even played the game. Im just saying they are greedy bastards and the business model they are using proves it.
It's a business model they didn't start and I'm willing to bet will be / has been adopted by most game companies.
Originally posted by Teala This is why I cannot stand Apple or any of their products. They litigate the hell out of competition and that is the only way they can stay viable. I'll never buy anything made by Apple. Zenimax is playing the same dirty kind of game. This is going to hurt their image if they pursue this. They wouldn't have done squat if the sale to Facebook hadn't taken place. Now that it is has...they are looking to make a money grab - the same thing they did for their game TESO with its stupid paywalls. Just a greedy frakking tech company is what Zenimax is.
Without defending zenimax, because I abhor them, I'd like to point a few things out... Apple sues the competition for developing equal or better features as their phones, claiming they saw the features on the iPhone or whatever and stole it, without any technical assistance from apple themselves... Carmack was a talent that Zenimax employed to research and develop Virtual Reality, Carmack then LEFT them to go work on VR elsewhere. The situations are not comparable.
It's worth noting that ZeniMax is not claiming that Oculus is violating any VR patents it owns, but rather that the design and development of the Rift headset was substantially aided by Carmack's work, which is owned by ZeniMax. This could make it a murky legal argument. It's not necessarily about the money Oculus has been making -- the company has thus far made about $25.5 million off its Rift developer kits,Recode reports -- but rather could have implications involving future consumer models.
How is that headset development linked to some duct taped ski goggles. That is the claim. That is why Carmack saying "Oculus uses zero lines of code that I wrote while under contract to Zenimax," is important.
Please remember it is not the VR they are going for it is the design of the headset .The one they will be selling to millions of consumers.
Originally posted by XzenIt's called patent trolling. Even if Zenimax is right legally I don't believe in IP so I agree with jury nullification.
You don't believe in intellectual property?Maybe I should go create a website called MMORPG?Maybe I should make a game called World of Warcraft?Those are IPs after all.
What a ridiculous assertion. Should whoever owns Rift and the VR tech behind exclusively be allowed to create VR gear? The patent and IP system is so screwed that it has crippled innovation.Where do you draw the ridiculous line? He isn't trying to create a VR system that says Zenimax on it is he so you're mmorpg analogy is shallow and short-sighted. By your purile argument people shouldn't be allowed to create websites or games period. He's not stealing an implementation. He's not copying another implementation. He's making his own and the previous company thinks they should have IP rights to the concepts, more specifically that they own rights to his ideas formed while working for them.How would you like to be sued at your next job, in the same industry, because you're using ideas and tricks you learned at your last place of employment? That is what is going on here and why IP rules in tech are poison at the moment.
For my job, I signed an NDA that explicitly states I shall not use anything provided by my employers...even if I'm the one that created them. They own the rights.With that said, the person I quoted said he doesn't believe in IPs.Say IP is a broad statement. I SHOULD be sued if I used WoW's name, etc.Anyway, if this guy didn't like the terms he shouldn't have signed the contract. Edit:And ZM DOES own the rights to anything he created while under their employ.
Like I said, that is where the gray area comes in and our system is broken. Just because we have a broken IP and patent system doesn't mean we should continue to support that system.
I don't believe in exclusive encompassing ownership of ideas and concepts. Specific implementations yes, but not ideas that can be reimplemented in another manner.
Another reason it's gray is because it does sound like he broke his NDA. It also sounds like he left the company because they didn't want to pursue VR tech. It wasn't like they had a master plan and he pulled the rug out from under them. It sounds like they killed the project he was on.
On one hand they didn't pursue this until Rift started to gain momentum which looks bad, but they did pursue it before Facebook offered Occulus stupid amounts of money as a purchase so that looks better for them.
What is interesting is that Facebook had to know about the legal entanglements. Why would they get involved unless they thought they were in the clear.
That's my question as well, I can understand an individual overlooking non compete/3rd party clauses that continue to exist even after separation. But Facebook's legal dept. should have seen the red flag before they began finalizing the deal. Either way I see OR tech locked in litigation for the next little/long while.
The guy admits the code he used belongs to Zenimax in WRITING.
The Occulus turns around and says they did nothing wrong using the stolen code.
I mean granted the whole industry is 99% stolen code and concept, but when the designer himself puts in writing the code in question belongs to Zenimax, then a court of law is going to agree.
But hey keep hating on Zenimax for defending their legal rights.
You don't read the articles either do you.
Yea I did, but maybe you need to go read the ORIGINAL story not the 15th repost of it. When done with that go read the legal complaint filed.
It is not just Carmack, 3 ex-employees are named in the complaint. Zenimax has legal documents from all 3 including Carmack stating the code was developed for Zenimax while employed by Zenimax and that they would not share that code with others without express permission of Zenimax.
They immediately shared the code, admit they shared the code, admit the code belongs to Zenimax, but the developers are claiming the code is not protected by intellectual rights because they never filed patent on it.
It is a totally invalid argument with no legal precedence to stand on.
Oculus stole the code flat out and their legal defense is to try and smear the legal owners of the code publically.
Not to mention all the kickstarter supporters that are now fucked by the facebook deal. I am seriously waiting for the class action lawsuit from kickstarter supporters for breach of "implied " contract.
Well I guess we have a new contender for worst company on Wall Street and I have a new reason not to touch ESO, regardless of how good or bad it is. LET THE GAMES BEGIN!
Comments
Exactly. Seems pretty cut and dry.
Now if he did use code owned by Zenimax it's not just patent trolling and he is a thief.
He did no admit to using code owned by ZM. In fact he explicitly denies that. Read the articles posted.
http://www.polygon.com/2014/5/1/5671670/carmack-oculus-zenimax
bottom of page
John Carmack ? @ID_AA_Carmack
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No work I have ever done has been patented. Zenimax owns the code that I wrote, but they don't own VR.
1:22 PM - 1 May 2014
If a single line of code in the current OR incorporates the above, he's on the hook legally and contractually.
From my understanding, his contract stated that he would not let a 3rd party have access to the property. What that means is he was fine using it until the FB deal. That broke his contract.
I could be wrong on that, but the bottom line is it really really really looks like he took work from ZM and gave it to FB.
"Oculus uses zero lines of code that I wrote while under contract to Zenimax,"
Read carefully. Zenimax owns the code he wrote while at Zenimax but OR uses zero lines of code that I wrote while under contract to Zen.
From my understanding damn I hate all this social media stuff to sift through because everything gets garbled. He wrote the code for OR after he left so while he agrees Zenimax owns the code he wrote while he was with them since OR does not have any line of code he wrote while with them then they cannot claim it.
Probably the law in US is different and I am barking up the wrong tree
What it sounds like is that Zenimax was trying to be the 'Good Neighbor' to the new guy on the block (Occulus) by seeming helpful and generous with the thought that if something became of the Rift that they would be able to say "Well remember that time we let you borrow the lawn mower?" and get in on some form of partnership or eventual buy-out of Occulus.
Sadly all that happened is Occulus moved out of state, kept the lawn mower and Zenimax's wife (Carmack) went with them.
Now Zenimax is suing to get the cost of the mower back!
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Just drop the holier than thou act, of something similar happens to you. You would do the same. After all money talks.
Zenimax is the 1st party, Carmack is the 2nd party, and Oculus/Facebook are the 3rd party.
For my job, I signed an NDA that explicitly states I shall not use anything provided by my employers...even if I'm the one that created them. They own the rights.
With that said, the person I quoted said he doesn't believe in IPs.
Say IP is a broad statement. I SHOULD be sued if I used WoW's name, etc.
Anyway, if this guy didn't like the terms he shouldn't have signed the contract.
Edit:
And ZM DOES own the rights to anything he created while under their employ.
This is what happens when a game of a company fails.
They get nasty and they are on their way to doom
Wow have to side with Zenimax on this one.
The guy admits the code he used belongs to Zenimax in WRITING.
The Occulus turns around and says they did nothing wrong using the stolen code.
I mean granted the whole industry is 99% stolen code and concept, but when the designer himself puts in writing the code in question belongs to Zenimax, then a court of law is going to agree.
But hey keep hating on Zenimax for defending their legal rights.
I like how the argument the guys working on the Occulus Rift use is: "When something is successful, people come out of the woodwork to mess with you."
Yet, for all we know, the Occulus Rift was based out of ZOS, and they reversed the situation.
Either way, it's gonna be 50-50 between the rejects on this site.
It's a business model they didn't start and I'm willing to bet will be / has been adopted by most game companies.
How long did Zenimax try to resolve this? Nearly 2 years?
Looks like some peoples hero turned out to be a thief.. It happens. Get over it.
Without defending zenimax, because I abhor them, I'd like to point a few things out... Apple sues the competition for developing equal or better features as their phones, claiming they saw the features on the iPhone or whatever and stole it, without any technical assistance from apple themselves... Carmack was a talent that Zenimax employed to research and develop Virtual Reality, Carmack then LEFT them to go work on VR elsewhere. The situations are not comparable.
The tech that Zenimax is talking about is some computer component duct taped ski goggles.
This is from the article http://www.cnet.com/news/oculus-and-facebook-hit-with-legal-challenge-over-rights-to-rift-technology/
It's worth noting that ZeniMax is not claiming that Oculus is violating any VR patents it owns, but rather that the design and development of the Rift headset was substantially aided by Carmack's work, which is owned by ZeniMax. This could make it a murky legal argument. It's not necessarily about the money Oculus has been making -- the company has thus far made about $25.5 million off its Rift developer kits,Recode reports -- but rather could have implications involving future consumer models.
How is that headset development linked to some duct taped ski goggles. That is the claim. That is why Carmack saying "Oculus uses zero lines of code that I wrote while under contract to Zenimax," is important.
Please remember it is not the VR they are going for it is the design of the headset .The one they will be selling to millions of consumers.
Yea I did, but maybe you need to go read the ORIGINAL story not the 15th repost of it. When done with that go read the legal complaint filed.
It is not just Carmack, 3 ex-employees are named in the complaint. Zenimax has legal documents from all 3 including Carmack stating the code was developed for Zenimax while employed by Zenimax and that they would not share that code with others without express permission of Zenimax.
They immediately shared the code, admit they shared the code, admit the code belongs to Zenimax, but the developers are claiming the code is not protected by intellectual rights because they never filed patent on it.
It is a totally invalid argument with no legal precedence to stand on.
Oculus stole the code flat out and their legal defense is to try and smear the legal owners of the code publically.
Not to mention all the kickstarter supporters that are now fucked by the facebook deal. I am seriously waiting for the class action lawsuit from kickstarter supporters for breach of "implied " contract.