Funny how ZeniMax didn't say squat when OR was raking in money with Kickstarter, but now that Facebook/Zuckerburg bought them for billions, ZeniMax is now all " dey tuk R code"
Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.
What Zenimax doesnt understand is that they could make a ton more money by simply embracing the technology regardless of who is working with it. The path they are taking (if they win) will be a massive loss to them in opportunity cost.
The sad part though is that we will all loose as well.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
What Zenimax doesnt understand is that they could make a ton more money by simply embracing the technology regardless of who is working with it. The path they are taking (if they win) will be a massive loss to them in opportunity cost.
The sad part though is that we will all loose as well.
I actually agree with this. I feel like both companies stand to gain more by working together to develop next gen VR for their games rather than bickering and arguing over who stole who's ideas. Hadn't really thought about that way, but if a partnership of sorts was formed rather than taking legal action against one another, wouldn't it be a win all around, consumers included? I may just have to change my tune on the whole situation.
Good point Sean.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV Have played: You name it If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
Oculus denied the initial claims, but online debate heated up when a copy of a non-disclosure agreement between ZeniMax and Oculus co-founder Palmer Luckey leaked out. A spokesperson for the virtual reality company said in an emailed statement today that ZeniMax had “misstated the purposes and language” of the NDA.
The Oculus spokesperson went on to say that Carmack’s departure from Id — which was already reported to have stemmed from the lack of opportunity to work on VR — was more thorny than previously realized.
“A key reason that John permanently left ZeniMax in August of 2013 was that ZeniMax prevented John from working on VR and stopped investing in VR games across the company,” the statement said. “ZeniMax canceled VR support for Doom 3 BFG when Oculus refused ZeniMax’s demands for a non-dilutable equity stake in Oculus.”
That’s especially interesting because the same disputed NDA, a copy of which was obtained by Re/code, said ZeniMax and Oculus were under “no commitment” to invest in one another or “enter into any other business arrangements of any nature whatsoever.”
The spokesperson also noted that ZeniMax did not pursue its IP claims against Oculus until after Facebook’s $2 billion acquisition of the company in March.
Originally posted by Thornrage Since Zenimax tried to settle before the Facebook buyout, would think they might have more of leg to stand on here than you are accepting.
Even so, if I were on that jury i would vote jury nullification because even if they do have legal standing I highly question the moral basis of the law. Not sure if a jury would be involved in this but even so thats my take on it.
So...even if they had the law on their side you would vote no....hope that applies when you are before a judge for something.
If the law is unethical......perhaps you should look up jury nullification and its meaning before commenting.
I'm not sure what world you live in... It's unethical to be paid to do work with THEIR equipment, with THEIR groundwork, in THEIR facility, and then to take that work to another company.
This all depends on what kind of employment agreement Carmack had with Zenimax.
The law is definitely ethical and moral. You should always honor your contracts.
First, I am an actual lawyer.
Second, this is a basic legal question which arises in any Contracts I class, When you work for a company, anything you do or invent for them is owned by the company. The end.
Third, this is the law whether you agree with it or not. It is the law whether you dislike the original company or not. It is the law whether or not the plaintiff is huge and the defendant is a startup, If the plaintiff has a legal right to something, it also has remedy if that right is violated.
Fourth, unless you have an advanced degree in Patents, do not bother giving us your interpretation of the law. I just gave it to you.
Hedonismbot: Your latest performance was as delectable as dipping my bottom over and over into a bath of the silkiest oils and creams.
Originally posted by Teala Well the game isn't selling all that well. How else can they make back the cost of development which some estimate to be over $250 million.
SO bullshit. Just because some dumbass guy in Forbes who has NO connection to Zeni or anything they've done throws in some number out in left field does not mean it's true. It has about as much validity as the guy that said ESO will probably have 10 million subs.
As for the case, Zeni has sued before and they usually only do it if they know they have a chance, they aren't a super big company after all. I would be surprised if they didn't come out with anything. Also screw your bastardizing of Zenimax simply because they are suing another company. That's just silly. This is 'Murica.
Did noone watch the youtube vidoes over the last 2 years, where he admitted to doing experimentation with the Optics, 3d Positioning and other virtual reality technology IN HIS ID OFFICE?
I respect the mans Intellect, But he has been rabid about this VR stuff for quite sometime. There was/is clearly overlap between his id business and his personal projects (Rift).
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Second, this is a basic legal question which arises in any Contracts I class, When you work for a company, anything you do or invent for them is owned by the company. The end.
Third, this is the law whether you agree with it or not. It is the law whether you dislike the original company or not. It is the law whether or not the plaintiff is huge and the defendant is a startup, If the plaintiff has a legal right to something, it also has remedy if that right is violated.
Fourth, unless you have an advanced degree in Patents, do not bother giving us your interpretation of the law. I just gave it to you.
So you're a patent lawyer? Patent law is an untenable mess. What is law now doesn't have to stay that way.
Patents aren't at issue here by the way.
Oculus has denied that the circumstance is how you or Zenimax describe.
The Oculus SDK is open source and the code can be examined.
Just so both of your know, there wasnt any patents on Zenimax's side.
From my understanding Carmack had a personal interest in VR and pushed Zenimax to do it however Zenimax didnt want anything to do with it.
That said, where he might have written some code for them as a research project I dont know but I do know there wasnt any patents filed.
At least this is my understanding
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Did noone watch the youtube vidoes over the last 2 years, where he admitted to doing experimentation with the Optics, 3d Positioning and other virtual reality technology IN HIS ID OFFICE?
I respect the mans Intellect, But he has been rabid about this VR stuff for quite sometime. There was/is clearly overlap between his id business and his personal projects (Rift).
If I work on my novel in my office does that mean its property of the company I worked for?
There is a fuzzy line here because Carmack had a personal intrest in VR and was doing research on his own but what how much of the work was sponsered by Zenimax we dont know.
What we do know is that even if Zenimax is correct they have a TON more to gain by playing nice and embracing VR in general reagardless of who have patents.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Originally posted by Thornrage Since Zenimax tried to settle before the Facebook buyout, would think they might have more of leg to stand on here than you are accepting.
Even so, if I were on that jury i would vote jury nullification because even if they do have legal standing I highly question the moral basis of the law. Not sure if a jury would be involved in this but even so thats my take on it.
So...even if they had the law on their side you would vote no....hope that applies when you are before a judge for something.
Please. People are capable of forming their opinions. Juries are responsible not in determining legal guilt, but in moral guilt. Who is at fault and who actually deserves the rights to the code? The law is murky at best when it comes to these sort of matters at any rate.
Jury is in, if Zenimax sues and slows down Oculus VR, I won't ever support Zenimax in any other future game release. Hell being this petty I may not support them anymore here on out.
I really want Oculus to hurry up with a solid release of VR.
I find it funny how people jump to conclusions so easily. If they stole it then Zenimax has ever right to sue over it. If they didn't then Zenimax is in this wrong. Until it's settled then nobody knows the truth. People on here automatically bash the company that is suing. So if someone steals someting of yours, don't even think about trying to get it back...or we'll have to bash you for it. Can't wait for Wildstar to come out so the bash wagon can move on to it and leave Zenimax alone lol.
Isn't this roughly the same argument as what happened with Facebook?
Guy is employed to do something, leaves, writes original code and Facebook is invented. Original partners claim foul but Mark Z wins.
Sure sounds like the same argument being used here by Zenimax.
The difference is that the guy that sued him thought of the idea, but did nothing with it. You can't patent ideas. Zenimax is claiming that the code used by Occulus is their IP and was taken when he left ID and joined Occulus.
Originally posted by Thornrage Since Zenimax tried to settle before the Facebook buyout, would think they might have more of leg to stand on here than you are accepting.
Not saying you making stuff up, but do you have a source? I can only find stuff on the current case. Granted I only checked the first 3 pages on google
Zenimax's actual lawsuit provides the answer to that. It actually shows that they contacted and attempted to settle this before Facebook ever came into the seen. Oculus was given the option to basically give zenimax company stake in the product. You have to go to do some actual research to learn the truth of a lot of this crap.
Basically the Zenimax suit has grounds because of the way they worded the contract with John. Basically the lawyers screwed him from every being able to code in the gaming field if he every left there company.
I could care less about this product since Facebook bought the rights personally. Who need VR Farmville!
Originally posted by Gravarg I find it funny how people jump to conclusions so easily. If they stole it then Zenimax has ever right to sue over it. If they didn't then Zenimax is in this wrong. Until it's settled then nobody knows the truth. People on here automatically bash the company that is suing. So if someone steals someting of yours, don't even think about trying to get it back...or we'll have to bash you for it. Can't wait for Wildstar to come out so the bash wagon can move on to it and leave Zenimax alone lol.
I completely agree with you mate. All the internet experts coming out to toss their two cents with little to no information. I would suggest some of you read about the lady who sued McDonalds over hot coffee. I bet you threw (or would have) her under the bus regardless of the truth. One, this is just another way people are bashing Zenimax. Two, this has little to no relevance to the game under which this post is listed. Three, if you want to pass judgement then I suggest you begin with passing the bar and actually being a part of either party's legal team.
Cheers!
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
Originally posted by Gravarg I find it funny how people jump to conclusions so easily. If they stole it then Zenimax has ever right to sue over it. If they didn't then Zenimax is in this wrong. Until it's settled then nobody knows the truth. People on here automatically bash the company that is suing. So if someone steals someting of yours, don't even think about trying to get it back...or we'll have to bash you for it. Can't wait for Wildstar to come out so the bash wagon can move on to it and leave Zenimax alone lol.
I completely agree with you mate. All the internet experts coming out to toss their two cents with little to no information. I would suggest some of you read about the lady who sued McDonalds over hot coffee. I bet you threw (or would have) her under the bus regardless of the truth. One, this is just another way people are bashing Zenimax. Two, this has little to no relevance to the game under which this post is listed. Three, if you want to pass judgement then I suggest you begin with passing the bar and actually being a part of either party's legal team.
Cheers!
Hot Coffee is a good documentary about that hot coffee case as well as others.
On the surface Zenimax looks like a company that couldn't find its own hand during masturbation.
A normal gaming company would have to put special effort in order to consciously destroy Elder Scrolls as an MMO. They did it and didn't even notice it. This much we know without a documentary to tell us otherwise.
So with that is anyone surprised that they ditched all VR projects and then were surprised to learn that people actually liked VR? I mean this company has zero idea what games are about and what gamers might like so that is well in line with their mode of conduct.
What we also know about Zenimax is that they like to sue a lot, they have done it a lot in the past. This is the behavior one would take if one didn't know how to make games.
So when you add those three items (destroyed ESO, threw away VR, likes to sue) I don't think its much to extrapolate what is going on here
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Originally posted by Thornrage Since Zenimax tried to settle before the Facebook buyout, would think they might have more of leg to stand on here than you are accepting.
Not saying you making stuff up, but do you have a source? I can only find stuff on the current case. Granted I only checked the first 3 pages on google
That's teh problem with the premise behind this thread, most approach this based on how they feel about the products these companies sell, over anything actually factual, as we have nothing factual to go on, all of those "facts" are sitting a court document we haven't seen. Not to mention anything that happened was behind closed doors.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by Thornrage Since Zenimax tried to settle before the Facebook buyout, would think they might have more of leg to stand on here than you are accepting.
Not saying you making stuff up, but do you have a source? I can only find stuff on the current case. Granted I only checked the first 3 pages on google
That's teh problem with the premise behind this thread, most approach this based on how they feel about the products these companies sell, over anything actually factual, as we have nothing factual to go on, all of those "facts" are sitting a court document we haven't seen. Not to mention anything that happened was behind closed doors.
Basing an opinion (such as will the sun rise in the morning) is not based on fact either but rather past facts and experiences. We don't know as a fact that the sun will shine tomorrow but based on past experiences and physics we can make a pretty good guess.
as it turns out the past of Zenimax has proven a very interesting and compeling case against them
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Comments
They should be the worst gaming company of the year.
I think EA becoming the worst company on the planet was unfair to them but it does show how motovated gamers are.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Zenimax are probably excited too since they are probably a shoo in to win it, the award that is, but hey, they really worked hard to earn it.
Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.
Games Played: Too Many
What Zenimax doesnt understand is that they could make a ton more money by simply embracing the technology regardless of who is working with it. The path they are taking (if they win) will be a massive loss to them in opportunity cost.
The sad part though is that we will all loose as well.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I actually agree with this. I feel like both companies stand to gain more by working together to develop next gen VR for their games rather than bickering and arguing over who stole who's ideas. Hadn't really thought about that way, but if a partnership of sorts was formed rather than taking legal action against one another, wouldn't it be a win all around, consumers included? I may just have to change my tune on the whole situation.
Good point Sean.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
reported 5/5, at Re/code
Oculus Says ZeniMax Punished Carmack When It Couldn’t Get Equity
http://recode.net/2014/05/05/oculus-says-zenimax-punished-carmack-when-it-couldnt-get-equity/
Oculus denied the initial claims, but online debate heated up when a copy of a non-disclosure agreement between ZeniMax and Oculus co-founder Palmer Luckey leaked out. A spokesperson for the virtual reality company said in an emailed statement today that ZeniMax had “misstated the purposes and language” of the NDA.
The Oculus spokesperson went on to say that Carmack’s departure from Id — which was already reported to have stemmed from the lack of opportunity to work on VR — was more thorny than previously realized.
“A key reason that John permanently left ZeniMax in August of 2013 was that ZeniMax prevented John from working on VR and stopped investing in VR games across the company,” the statement said. “ZeniMax canceled VR support for Doom 3 BFG when Oculus refused ZeniMax’s demands for a non-dilutable equity stake in Oculus.”
That’s especially interesting because the same disputed NDA, a copy of which was obtained by Re/code, said ZeniMax and Oculus were under “no commitment” to invest in one another or “enter into any other business arrangements of any nature whatsoever.”
The spokesperson also noted that ZeniMax did not pursue its IP claims against Oculus until after Facebook’s $2 billion acquisition of the company in March.
EQ2 fan sites
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
First, I am an actual lawyer.
Second, this is a basic legal question which arises in any Contracts I class, When you work for a company, anything you do or invent for them is owned by the company. The end.
Third, this is the law whether you agree with it or not. It is the law whether you dislike the original company or not. It is the law whether or not the plaintiff is huge and the defendant is a startup, If the plaintiff has a legal right to something, it also has remedy if that right is violated.
Fourth, unless you have an advanced degree in Patents, do not bother giving us your interpretation of the law. I just gave it to you.
Hedonismbot: Your latest performance was as delectable as dipping my bottom over and over into a bath of the silkiest oils and creams.
SO bullshit. Just because some dumbass guy in Forbes who has NO connection to Zeni or anything they've done throws in some number out in left field does not mean it's true. It has about as much validity as the guy that said ESO will probably have 10 million subs.
As for the case, Zeni has sued before and they usually only do it if they know they have a chance, they aren't a super big company after all. I would be surprised if they didn't come out with anything. Also screw your bastardizing of Zenimax simply because they are suing another company. That's just silly. This is 'Murica.
Did noone watch the youtube vidoes over the last 2 years, where he admitted to doing experimentation with the Optics, 3d Positioning and other virtual reality technology IN HIS ID OFFICE?
I respect the mans Intellect, But he has been rabid about this VR stuff for quite sometime. There was/is clearly overlap between his id business and his personal projects (Rift).
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Just so both of your know, there wasnt any patents on Zenimax's side.
From my understanding Carmack had a personal interest in VR and pushed Zenimax to do it however Zenimax didnt want anything to do with it.
That said, where he might have written some code for them as a research project I dont know but I do know there wasnt any patents filed.
At least this is my understanding
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
If I work on my novel in my office does that mean its property of the company I worked for?
There is a fuzzy line here because Carmack had a personal intrest in VR and was doing research on his own but what how much of the work was sponsered by Zenimax we dont know.
What we do know is that even if Zenimax is correct they have a TON more to gain by playing nice and embracing VR in general reagardless of who have patents.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
So Zenimax has gone out of its way to make sure the entire world knows that Facebook has more insight into the future of gaming then they do.
Nicely done Zenimax..you basically told the entire world that you closed VR projects. How did you not see that coming?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Please. People are capable of forming their opinions. Juries are responsible not in determining legal guilt, but in moral guilt. Who is at fault and who actually deserves the rights to the code? The law is murky at best when it comes to these sort of matters at any rate.
Jury is in, if Zenimax sues and slows down Oculus VR, I won't ever support Zenimax in any other future game release. Hell being this petty I may not support them anymore here on out.
I really want Oculus to hurry up with a solid release of VR.
TL;DR :
Here is another kickstarter for VR + gear and accessories from China.
So will Zenimax sue these guys ( ANTVR )?
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/805968217/antvr-kit-all-in-one-universal-virtual-reality-kit?ref=discovery
Pardon my English as it is not my 1st language
Isn't this roughly the same argument as what happened with Facebook?
Guy is employed to do something, leaves, writes original code and Facebook is invented. Original partners claim foul but Mark Z wins.
Sure sounds like the same argument being used here by Zenimax.
The difference is that the guy that sued him thought of the idea, but did nothing with it. You can't patent ideas. Zenimax is claiming that the code used by Occulus is their IP and was taken when he left ID and joined Occulus.
Zenimax's actual lawsuit provides the answer to that. It actually shows that they contacted and attempted to settle this before Facebook ever came into the seen. Oculus was given the option to basically give zenimax company stake in the product. You have to go to do some actual research to learn the truth of a lot of this crap.
Basically the Zenimax suit has grounds because of the way they worded the contract with John. Basically the lawyers screwed him from every being able to code in the gaming field if he every left there company.
I could care less about this product since Facebook bought the rights personally. Who need VR Farmville!
I completely agree with you mate. All the internet experts coming out to toss their two cents with little to no information. I would suggest some of you read about the lady who sued McDonalds over hot coffee. I bet you threw (or would have) her under the bus regardless of the truth. One, this is just another way people are bashing Zenimax. Two, this has little to no relevance to the game under which this post is listed. Three, if you want to pass judgement then I suggest you begin with passing the bar and actually being a part of either party's legal team.
Cheers!
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
Hot Coffee is a good documentary about that hot coffee case as well as others.
On the surface Zenimax looks like a company that couldn't find its own hand during masturbation.
A normal gaming company would have to put special effort in order to consciously destroy Elder Scrolls as an MMO. They did it and didn't even notice it. This much we know without a documentary to tell us otherwise.
So with that is anyone surprised that they ditched all VR projects and then were surprised to learn that people actually liked VR? I mean this company has zero idea what games are about and what gamers might like so that is well in line with their mode of conduct.
What we also know about Zenimax is that they like to sue a lot, they have done it a lot in the past. This is the behavior one would take if one didn't know how to make games.
So when you add those three items (destroyed ESO, threw away VR, likes to sue) I don't think its much to extrapolate what is going on here
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
That's teh problem with the premise behind this thread, most approach this based on how they feel about the products these companies sell, over anything actually factual, as we have nothing factual to go on, all of those "facts" are sitting a court document we haven't seen. Not to mention anything that happened was behind closed doors.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Basing an opinion (such as will the sun rise in the morning) is not based on fact either but rather past facts and experiences. We don't know as a fact that the sun will shine tomorrow but based on past experiences and physics we can make a pretty good guess.
as it turns out the past of Zenimax has proven a very interesting and compeling case against them
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me