Eating out of a garbage can is free too. F2P has done nothing but water down the MMO genre.
*It replaced achievements that strengthen community and grouping, and replaced it with cash shop items that remove any inter dependence
Yeh .. and i don't play games for community, nor do i want inter dependence. So all good for me.
*it replaced tight knit groups and guilds with loners and people who refuse to communicate, socialise or work together, because all they need is XP and the rest can be bought in the shop, so why bother being nice to others
Yeh .. no need to communicate if i don't want to.
*it ruined immersion, that feeling of a world and items that belong to a certain zone, seeing where other players have been just by their gear has been replaced with the highest bidder, items appear out of nowhere and real cash influences the dynamics of the game and community
hmm ... all MMOs are more like games than before. Instanced, lobby, LFD, cross realm functions. All make MMO better (for me) games. This is not F2P specific.
*it made sure that MMO dies within a few years and increasingly a few months, because why bother investing time in a game if the developer keeps making the game more expensive to cater to the only people that truly matter to them, the whales, it creates a demographic of players who do not stick with a game, refuse to make a community, and instead hop from game to game. One failed MMO after the other, every other week there is a new F2P MMO, each one just as shallow as the next.
Yeh ... it makes games hopping good. They produce MORE games, with less content in each. So i can play games with more variety. Great!
There are 2 different demographics in MMO. It is not P2P players who accepted watered down F2P games, it is a massive influx of instant gratification players that flooded the market and the industry giving in to them.
Water down is a matter of perspective. The best Star Trek RPG is F2P (since there is only one). The best marvel character ARPG is also F2P (if you don't count the old MUA 1 & 2).
And it is great the the market finally figure out that making games are more successful than making worlds.
Eating out of a garbage can is free too. F2P has done nothing but water down the MMO genre.
*It replaced achievements that strengthen community and grouping, and replaced it with cash shop items that remove any inter dependence
*it replaced tight knit groups and guilds with loners and people who refuse to communicate, socialise or work together, because all they need is XP and the rest can be bought in the shop, so why bother being nice to others
*it ruined immersion, that feeling of a world and items that belong to a certain zone, seeing where other players have been just by their gear has been replaced with the highest bidder, items appear out of nowhere and real cash influences the dynamics of the game and community
*it made sure that MMO dies within a few years and increasingly a few months, because why bother investing time in a game if the developer keeps making the game more expensive to cater to the only people that truly matter to them, the whales, it creates a demographic of players who do not stick with a game, refuse to make a community, and instead hop from game to game. One failed MMO after the other, every other week there is a new F2P MMO, each one just as shallow as the next.
There are 2 different demographics in MMO. It is not P2P players who accepted watered down F2P games, it is a massive influx of instant gratification players that flooded the market and the industry giving in to them.
I'm not quite sure I agree with your assessments.
Replacing achievements that strengthen community really isn't a free to play thing. "removing interdependence" can be achieved by p2p as well.
Though having in game cash shops can ruin immersion, I don't know of many games where you can purchase top of the line gear. I think this is more of a worry with players than a reality. There might very well be boutique games where players spend thousands of dollars as a matter of course for gear but most games that do offer gear offer low end gear.
free to play hasn't created "loners". There have been solo players long before free to play. And the "solo quester" was around before the free to play movement.
I do agree that free to play games tend to trend toward short term viability but I also think that part of it is the player base. Slap on a sub and players aren't going to stay longer than they intended to, constantly moving to the next big thing.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by hallucigenocide Originally posted by SpottyGekkoOriginally posted by Foomeranghate? no.For me, its like renting a movie vs watching a movie on tv. Id rather pay a few bucks up front and get an uninterrupted experience rather than watch it for free with commercials peppered in.F2P is interrupting to me. And when I play an MMO, I like to be immersed, not interrupted. I don't want to be bothered with monetary options while I'm trying to be involved in the game itself. Cash shops are like a commercial break that I don't need.
Likewise.I like games that have a rich array of features and extras and "cosmetic" options. But I don't like paying for them individually. That's why I prefer subscription-based games, they inevitably end up being cheaper for ME to play. Many of the things that I value highly in games are usually the kind of things that get stripped-out and monetized in the Cash Shop.pretty much the same stance i have.. if there's a sub i'll most likely go for that.
but it seems to be a pretty difficult issue if you look around on game forums.. you see the p2p ones have players begging for it to be f2p.. and you can see on f2p game forums people begging for them to have a sub.
i personally think the best way is to offer both options really.
I know whenever I see pets, or mounts, armor and weapon skins, vanity items and cosmetics being placed in a cash shop, it leaves a bad taste.
I can't help but wish all those cool items were implemented into a questline, or a crafting system, or god forbid a whole new game system added in.
The irony is, the only reason so called "F2P" exists, is because developers wanted a way to get more than the monthly sub fee from people, via mirco transactions and gated content.
Yes, the box price and sub fee was not enough for them.
So they make games where the "fun" and "experience" are governed by how much you can suck out of people's wallets. And make no mistake, that is how they DESIGN the games in the first place: they do not design gameplay around making the best game possible, or the most fun, or having deep or rich player experience, but in how to funnel people to the cash shop most efficiently.
I am satisfied in paying a flat fee for access to everything a game has to offer, but game companies are not.
It is easy to hate the scam that is "F2P", but then, I am old enough to realize there is no such thing as a free lunch.
f2p mmo's are too much expensive for peoples with real life jobs & live,we cant grind 12 hours every day ( play for free)
What are you taking about?
I played Marvel Heroes totally free. The story campaign took me only 30 hours to finish .. more or less like a SP game. I did it with 2 characters, and so the total play time on this game so far is less than 80 hours.
It is essentially a free fun SP game for me. What is the problem?
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Agent_Josephf2p mmo's are too much expensive for peoples with real life jobs & live,we cant grind 12 hours every day ( play for free)
What are you taking about?
I played Marvel Heroes totally free. The story campaign took me only 30 hours to finish .. more or less like a SP game. I did it with 2 characters, and so the total play time on this game so far is less than 80 hours.
It is essentially a free fun SP game for me. What is the problem?
Somebody somewhere paid. I know you only care about yourself but it doesn't change the fact that other people exist. And they pay, and keep the game running.
Originally posted by Agent_Josephf2p mmo's are too much expensive for peoples with real life jobs & live,we cant grind 12 hours every day ( play for free)
What are you taking about?
I played Marvel Heroes totally free. The story campaign took me only 30 hours to finish .. more or less like a SP game. I did it with 2 characters, and so the total play time on this game so far is less than 80 hours.
It is essentially a free fun SP game for me. What is the problem?
Somebody somewhere paid. I know you only care about yourself but it doesn't change the fact that other people exist. And they pay, and keep the game running.
So? His general statement "f2p mmo's are too much expensive for peoples with real life jobs & live,we cant grind 12 hours every day ( play for free)" is still wrong.
I am a person with a real life job. It is not too expensive to me, because it is free. And also free for a majority of players (see the discussion about whales, and how small a percentage they are).
Originally posted by DamonVile I can see why people dont like f2p...I can't see why they hate it. Prefering a payment model is one thing. Making up stats or generalizing all f2p games like people often do once emotion gets involved seems silly.
The haters are doing that to help end it. It has its appeal, but if it's demonized enough people will leave it behind. Haters are trying to kill it. As well they should.
Originally posted by DamonVile I can see why people dont like f2p...I can't see why they hate it. Prefering a payment model is one thing. Making up stats or generalizing all f2p games like people often do once emotion gets involved seems silly.
The haters are doing that to help end it. It has its appeal, but if it's demonized enough people will leave it behind. Haters are trying to kill it. As well they should.
They can try. As long as it is making money, i doubt devs would listen just because some don't like it.
f2p mmo's are too much expensive for peoples with real life jobs & live,we cant grind 12 hours every day ( play for free)
What are you taking about?
I played Marvel Heroes totally free. The story campaign took me only 30 hours to finish .. more or less like a SP game. I did it with 2 characters, and so the total play time on this game so far is less than 80 hours.
It is essentially a free fun SP game for me. What is the problem?
He's probably thinking about games that are set up like Lord of the Rings Online.
You "could" pay a sub or you can do more or less "grindy" quests and earn the turbine points along the way. The issue if that if you are playing very casually your turbine points are going to come more slowly.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by FoomerangOriginally posted by nariusseldonOriginally posted by Agent_Josephf2p mmo's are too much expensive for peoples with real life jobs & live,we cant grind 12 hours every day ( play for free)
What are you taking about?I played Marvel Heroes totally free. The story campaign took me only 30 hours to finish .. more or less like a SP game. I did it with 2 characters, and so the total play time on this game so far is less than 80 hours.It is essentially a free fun SP game for me. What is the problem?Somebody somewhere paid. I know you only care about yourself but it doesn't change the fact that other people exist. And they pay, and keep the game running.So? His general statement "f2p mmo's are too much expensive for peoples with real life jobs & live,we cant grind 12 hours every day ( play for free)" is still wrong.
I am a person with a real life job. It is not too expensive to me, because it is free. And also free for a majority of players (see the discussion about whales, and how small a percentage they are).
My point is that in a general sense, f2p games are not free. Somebody somewhere has to pay to keep it going. Whether you care or not doesn't matter. Its a fact.
I like how all the pseudo haters skipped my earlier post in this thread and kept repeating what their washed brains think of. Get real. You keep bitching about cash shops, well, WoW has cash shop, nobody is running butthurt about it. EVE Online has cash shop - again - nobody is bitching about it. Why is it so awful for a F2P title to have a cash shop. Are you for realz yo?
How is RIFT shoving the cash shop down your throat? Or TERA in that regard...hell, even Neverwinter is manageable ... >.>
But yeah make a 100+ page thread basically repeating the same shit instead of, you know, protect your freaking argument with REAL freaking examples, not just another "the brother of my friend's friend told me so..."
I don't think i hate F2P i think i dislike the people playing F2P games for free.
If i play a F2P game for free i am a Leech i can only play because other people are paying my share for me.
I do not like that at all i want to pay for myself and if i could not afford that u should not waste my time gaming anyways.
Sure i can pay in a F2P game but suddenly i am paying for Leeches and if i have to give to charity i can think of hundreds of better causes than to enable a Leech to play a game.
I like free stuff too! But damn do I dislike the crowd attracted to it. It's like that scene out of Blackhawk Down when the UN air drops some rice into Somalia...
In the end, I just want a nice steak dinner with my family and I dont mind paying for it.
I like how all the pseudo haters skipped my earlier post in this thread and kept repeating what their washed brains think of. Get real. You keep bitching about cash shops, well, WoW has cash shop, nobody is running butthurt about it. EVE Online has cash shop - again - nobody is bitching about it. Why is it so awful for a F2P title to have a cash shop. Are you for realz yo?
How is RIFT shoving the cash shop down your throat? Or TERA in that regard...hell, even Neverwinter is manageable ... >.>
But yeah make a 100+ page thread basically repeating the same shit instead of, you know, protect your freaking argument with REAL freaking examples, not just another "the brother of my friend's friend told me so..."
Except you aren't thinking about the additional argument which is that they would say "sub games shouldn't have a cash shop".
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I don't think i hate F2P i think i dislike the people playing F2P games for free.
If i play a F2P game for free i am a Leech i can only play because other people are paying my share for me.
I do not like that at all i want to pay for myself and if i could not afford that u should not waste my time gaming anyways.
Sure i can pay in a F2P game but suddenly i am paying for Leeches and if i have to give to charity i can think of hundreds of better causes than to enable a Leech to play a game.
Obviously without those "leeches" the world would be emptier. Every single online game in existence NEEDS a critical mass of users, be it 100 or 1000. You need to get that into your thick skulls. Everybody benefits the game. That leech you speak of is more than likely to pull longer hours than you do, do more group content, clear more tasks and/or bosses. It's so intertwined. I'm sorry you are so shortsighted to see it.
This (the critical mass) is one of the reasons your favorite P2P titles go F2P.
I like free stuff too! But damn do I dislike the crowd attracted to it. It's like that scene out of Blackhawk Down when the UN air drops some rice into Somalia...
In the end, I just want a nice steak dinner with my family and I dont mind paying for it.
Cool, I dare you to go to nullsec in EVE Online with a cargo ship and expect a nice restaurant Keep up the myths guys. You're doing great!
I don't think i hate F2P i think i dislike the people playing F2P games for free.
If i play a F2P game for free i am a Leech i can only play because other people are paying my share for me.
I do not like that at all i want to pay for myself and if i could not afford that u should not waste my time gaming anyways.
Sure i can pay in a F2P game but suddenly i am paying for Leeches and if i have to give to charity i can think of hundreds of better causes than to enable a Leech to play a game.
Obviously without those "leeches" the world would be emptier. Every single online game in existence NEEDS a critical mass of users, be it 100 or 1000. You need to get that into your thick skulls. Everybody benefits the game. That leech you speak of is more than likely to pull longer hours than you do, do more group content, clear more tasks and/or bosses. It's so intertwined. I'm sorry you are so shortsighted to see it.
This (the critical mass) is one of the reasons your favorite P2P titles go F2P.
That's conjecture.
Early games had a "critical mass" as you say but that number was much lower than we see now. And there were no issues with finding people to play with or to inhabit the world during the heights of those games.
Whether or not those free players are actually adding value is really conjecture.
edit: I will add that one thing the f2p system IS good at is allowing for a constant flow of players who might pay into the system or who might be a good addition to the community.
It's that flow of players because of the lower barrier to entry where free to play shines. Having said that, whether they actually do pay into the system and whether or not they are "inhabiting" the world and being a part of the community by earning their keep is conjecture.
Only the game companies know.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I don't think i hate F2P i think i dislike the people playing F2P games for free.
If i play a F2P game for free i am a Leech i can only play because other people are paying my share for me.
I do not like that at all i want to pay for myself and if i could not afford that u should not waste my time gaming anyways.
Sure i can pay in a F2P game but suddenly i am paying for Leeches and if i have to give to charity i can think of hundreds of better causes than to enable a Leech to play a game.
Obviously without those "leeches" the world would be emptier. Every single online game in existence NEEDS a critical mass of users, be it 100 or 1000. You need to get that into your thick skulls. Everybody benefits the game. That leech you speak of is more than likely to pull longer hours than you do, do more group content, clear more tasks and/or bosses. It's so intertwined. I'm sorry you are so shortsighted to see it.
This (the critical mass) is one of the reasons your favorite P2P titles go F2P.
That's conjecture.
Early games had a "critical mass" as you say but that number was much lower than we see now. And there were no issues with finding people to play with or to inhabit the world during the heights of those games.
Whether or not those free players are actually adding value is really conjecture.
Early games IMO weren't designed to me as massive. Its the norm now for a single server to be able to have few thousand players on. In MU Onlne ppl there couldn't be more than 150 players on a single map if memory serves me right. I can't even imagine Ultima Online displaying 200 players on the same zone, nowadays we have generic massive PvP fights with over 200 players. Progress certainly increased the need for "things to do in-game", group activities, larger worlds that need to be populated!
Originally posted by Agent_Josephf2p mmo's are too much expensive for peoples with real life jobs & live,we cant grind 12 hours every day ( play for free)
What are you taking about?I played Marvel Heroes totally free. The story campaign took me only 30 hours to finish .. more or less like a SP game. I did it with 2 characters, and so the total play time on this game so far is less than 80 hours.It is essentially a free fun SP game for me. What is the problem?
Somebody somewhere paid. I know you only care about yourself but it doesn't change the fact that other people exist. And they pay, and keep the game running.
So? His general statement "f2p mmo's are too much expensive for peoples with real life jobs & live,we cant grind 12 hours every day ( play for free)" is still wrong.
I am a person with a real life job. It is not too expensive to me, because it is free. And also free for a majority of players (see the discussion about whales, and how small a percentage they are).
My point is that in a general sense, f2p games are not free. Somebody somewhere has to pay to keep it going. Whether you care or not doesn't matter. Its a fact.
And your point is irrelevant to my argument why his statement is wrong.
Sure someone has to pay .. just not me or the majority. Hence any statement that F2P is expensive for EVERYONE is wrong.
Comments
I'm not quite sure I agree with your assessments.
Replacing achievements that strengthen community really isn't a free to play thing. "removing interdependence" can be achieved by p2p as well.
Though having in game cash shops can ruin immersion, I don't know of many games where you can purchase top of the line gear. I think this is more of a worry with players than a reality. There might very well be boutique games where players spend thousands of dollars as a matter of course for gear but most games that do offer gear offer low end gear.
free to play hasn't created "loners". There have been solo players long before free to play. And the "solo quester" was around before the free to play movement.
I do agree that free to play games tend to trend toward short term viability but I also think that part of it is the player base. Slap on a sub and players aren't going to stay longer than they intended to, constantly moving to the next big thing.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
pretty much the same stance i have.. if there's a sub i'll most likely go for that.
but it seems to be a pretty difficult issue if you look around on game forums.. you see the p2p ones have players begging for it to be f2p.. and you can see on f2p game forums people begging for them to have a sub.
i personally think the best way is to offer both options really.
I know whenever I see pets, or mounts, armor and weapon skins, vanity items and cosmetics being placed in a cash shop, it leaves a bad taste.
I can't help but wish all those cool items were implemented into a questline, or a crafting system, or god forbid a whole new game system added in.
f2p mmo's are too much expensive for peoples with real life jobs & live,we cant grind 12 hours every day ( play for free)
The irony is, the only reason so called "F2P" exists, is because developers wanted a way to get more than the monthly sub fee from people, via mirco transactions and gated content.
Yes, the box price and sub fee was not enough for them.
So they make games where the "fun" and "experience" are governed by how much you can suck out of people's wallets. And make no mistake, that is how they DESIGN the games in the first place: they do not design gameplay around making the best game possible, or the most fun, or having deep or rich player experience, but in how to funnel people to the cash shop most efficiently.
I am satisfied in paying a flat fee for access to everything a game has to offer, but game companies are not.
It is easy to hate the scam that is "F2P", but then, I am old enough to realize there is no such thing as a free lunch.
What are you taking about?
I played Marvel Heroes totally free. The story campaign took me only 30 hours to finish .. more or less like a SP game. I did it with 2 characters, and so the total play time on this game so far is less than 80 hours.
It is essentially a free fun SP game for me. What is the problem?
I played Marvel Heroes totally free. The story campaign took me only 30 hours to finish .. more or less like a SP game. I did it with 2 characters, and so the total play time on this game so far is less than 80 hours.
It is essentially a free fun SP game for me. What is the problem?
Somebody somewhere paid. I know you only care about yourself but it doesn't change the fact that other people exist. And they pay, and keep the game running.
So? His general statement "f2p mmo's are too much expensive for peoples with real life jobs & live,we cant grind 12 hours every day ( play for free)" is still wrong.
I am a person with a real life job. It is not too expensive to me, because it is free. And also free for a majority of players (see the discussion about whales, and how small a percentage they are).
The haters are doing that to help end it. It has its appeal, but if it's demonized enough people will leave it behind. Haters are trying to kill it. As well they should.
They can try. As long as it is making money, i doubt devs would listen just because some don't like it.
He's probably thinking about games that are set up like Lord of the Rings Online.
You "could" pay a sub or you can do more or less "grindy" quests and earn the turbine points along the way. The issue if that if you are playing very casually your turbine points are going to come more slowly.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Somebody somewhere paid. I know you only care about yourself but it doesn't change the fact that other people exist. And they pay, and keep the game running.
So? His general statement "f2p mmo's are too much expensive for peoples with real life jobs & live,we cant grind 12 hours every day ( play for free)" is still wrong.
I am a person with a real life job. It is not too expensive to me, because it is free. And also free for a majority of players (see the discussion about whales, and how small a percentage they are).
My point is that in a general sense, f2p games are not free. Somebody somewhere has to pay to keep it going. Whether you care or not doesn't matter. Its a fact.
I like how all the pseudo haters skipped my earlier post in this thread and kept repeating what their washed brains think of. Get real. You keep bitching about cash shops, well, WoW has cash shop, nobody is running butthurt about it. EVE Online has cash shop - again - nobody is bitching about it. Why is it so awful for a F2P title to have a cash shop. Are you for realz yo?
How is RIFT shoving the cash shop down your throat? Or TERA in that regard...hell, even Neverwinter is manageable ... >.>
But yeah make a 100+ page thread basically repeating the same shit instead of, you know, protect your freaking argument with REAL freaking examples, not just another "the brother of my friend's friend told me so..."
I don't think i hate F2P i think i dislike the people playing F2P games for free.
If i play a F2P game for free i am a Leech i can only play because other people are paying my share for me.
I do not like that at all i want to pay for myself and if i could not afford that u should not waste my time gaming anyways.
Sure i can pay in a F2P game but suddenly i am paying for Leeches and if i have to give to charity i can think of hundreds of better causes than to enable a Leech to play a game.I like free stuff too! But damn do I dislike the crowd attracted to it. It's like that scene out of Blackhawk Down when the UN air drops some rice into Somalia...
In the end, I just want a nice steak dinner with my family and I dont mind paying for it.
That's just, like, my opinion, man.
Except you aren't thinking about the additional argument which is that they would say "sub games shouldn't have a cash shop".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Obviously without those "leeches" the world would be emptier. Every single online game in existence NEEDS a critical mass of users, be it 100 or 1000. You need to get that into your thick skulls. Everybody benefits the game. That leech you speak of is more than likely to pull longer hours than you do, do more group content, clear more tasks and/or bosses. It's so intertwined. I'm sorry you are so shortsighted to see it.
This (the critical mass) is one of the reasons your favorite P2P titles go F2P.
Cool, I dare you to go to nullsec in EVE Online with a cargo ship and expect a nice restaurant
Keep up the myths guys. You're doing great!
That's conjecture.
Early games had a "critical mass" as you say but that number was much lower than we see now. And there were no issues with finding people to play with or to inhabit the world during the heights of those games.
Whether or not those free players are actually adding value is really conjecture.
edit: I will add that one thing the f2p system IS good at is allowing for a constant flow of players who might pay into the system or who might be a good addition to the community.
It's that flow of players because of the lower barrier to entry where free to play shines. Having said that, whether they actually do pay into the system and whether or not they are "inhabiting" the world and being a part of the community by earning their keep is conjecture.
Only the game companies know.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Early games IMO weren't designed to me as massive. Its the norm now for a single server to be able to have few thousand players on. In MU Onlne ppl there couldn't be more than 150 players on a single map if memory serves me right. I can't even imagine Ultima Online displaying 200 players on the same zone, nowadays we have generic massive PvP fights with over 200 players. Progress certainly increased the need for "things to do in-game", group activities, larger worlds that need to be populated!
And your point is irrelevant to my argument why his statement is wrong.
Sure someone has to pay .. just not me or the majority. Hence any statement that F2P is expensive for EVERYONE is wrong.